Spinoff : Patch test W9 complaint

[Jimmy_Lemon]

hello there. sorry about a complaint but hopefully some officials will see this post.

the XRT and FXO restrictions have done nothing in terms of the tbo oval racing on the ky oval.

and i have to say its wrecked it. lap times are alot slower in xrt from the added 20kg. i can only get within .22 of my world record.

people in the server tryed other cars but in the end every one was just using xrt's because there still the best. so what its done really. is slowed down the best cars and still the slow ones are useless?? :shrug:

personally i think the slower cars should of been boosted slightly.


oh and plus, with my world record set i can just go wide open around the oval in XRT now so theres no fun at all. its just flat out boring slow laps where as befor you got loose on the correct line so you had to be skilled with throttle


theres allways a plus and negative to new things, and the posative is that there more eaven on all tracks now.
negative that they hurt the xrt for oval and theres still no improvment on oval.

not sure if they just did it without thinking about tbos on oval, it maybe it just didnt work out who knows.
but the results are bad for oval. slower and no better


okay now every ones going to have your Own oppinion on this post. but this is my opinion so please no arguments :)


thank you for reading

[XCNuse]

wait until scawen gets into real aero design.. see how much it slows you down then..

as far as going all out with the WR set, thats thanks to the clutch preload system, it should be like that

[Jimmy_Lemon]

im using locked diff tho. i dont use clutches for oval.

its because the car its self has more weight and more grip that you just floor it and dont get loose is boring now.

im a huge nascar fan and this doesnt feel like it any more in the xrt.


not that the Xrt "IS" a nascar. but it got loose like like nascars. and you had to let off on last corner for a "good" time


oh and btw fxo used to have 47 second laps and now it couldnt even stay up within half a lap of xrt on a 4 lap race lol.

so thats just messed up anyway

[Cue-Ball]

im a huge nascar fan and this doesnt feel like it any more in the xrt.So, you're saying that a 4 cylinder turbo, lightweight car, on street tires felt like a a NASCAR before!? :scratchch

This sim is still in alpha. LOTS of things are going to get changed. Some cars may get faster, some may get slower. This is something you just have to deal with as the game is developed and the cars are balanced. And just remember that this is a test patch. The XRT may not have the same weight penalty by the time the next official patch is released. And if it does still have the weight, everyone else will have it too so it's an even playing field.

oh and btw fxo used to have 47 second laps and now it couldnt even stay up within half a lap of xrt on a 4 lap raceWhat about on something other than the friggin' oval? The idea of balancing the cars is that one will be faster on some tracks and one will be faster on others.

[Jimmy_Lemon]

as much as i love a good race.

i love the setting up side of the game to go faster. and when youv done thousends of laps on a track you dont want to go slower and loose the line and have to start from scratch.

and what you said about oval. some people like oval you know, lfs has a oval and like you said about living with stuff. live with the fact some of us like oval just because you dont doesnt mean you have to knock it

like i said im not argueing. its my "oppinion" alltho in reality, of corse nothing compairs to lfs tho right? :)

[MAGGOT]

im a huge nascar fan and this doesnt feel like it any more in the xrt.


not that the Xrt "IS" a nascar.

Than you would know that there is no such thing as "a NASCAR." Sorry, but I HATE when people say that. It's a "Stock Car." NASCAR is a sanctioning body, not a car.

Anyways... If you run your own server play around with the global handicaps and come up with something that evens out the TBO class.

[Tweaker]

Yeah you can balance the classes out yourself if you want....

On the oval, the FXO needs intake restriction (8-9%) for it to match the RB4's speed. The XRT does too (4% iirc).

[Jimmy_Lemon]

yes but thats the point. i dont want to eaven them out. because no one uses the other two for ovaling, they just use xrt, and now xrt is slower..

so its now boring because theres less of the getting loose, its more grippy and slower now

[Tweaker]

Ok so you don't want to even them out, then what is the point of this thread? If you took those balancing figures for the oval, and used them on a road course, the cars would be unbalanced yet again depending on what track you choose. The option to balance them yourself is great if you have this problem. There is no universal balancing that works for all the tracks, there will always be one car faster than the other if you use ONE preset for the cars. Balancing them yourself lets you have multiple presets.

You can even them out and have all 3 in close racing on the oval. That is why there is a server-side handicaps system too, so you can have fair racing for everyone, in any car, on your own server.

[Jimmy_Lemon]

you dont get my point.

the xrt

is



too






slow




it feels like a rb4 going around the oval now. liturally :sleep2:

they should of just boosted up the slower cars.

[Jimmy_Lemon]

btw i just got a 48.22 with XRT, so i guess its only .14 different but still thats huge amount, really huge :(

[Tweaker]

RB4 is the benchmark car for top speed. The 2 faster cars have to match that car somewhat. So don't complain they are too slow... they are suppossed to be slower!

[Jimmy_Lemon]

or the slow ones be faster so it doesnt interfeer with the slowing down of the lap times instead the others get faster :)

ok i got a 48.18 with the extra 20kg :really:

[wildwilly]

how about dont use the TEST patch?

[Tweaker]

how about dont use the TEST patch?
Why would he need to do that? The balancing is going to happen eventually.

[Jimmy_Lemon]

yep i have two copys of lfs so iv not lost patch W on its own.

i love the new server connection limit etc brings more life to the game.

just not too keen on the limited cars which "Have" to be limited.

they should have a way of turning it off via admin that would be usefull so they was same weight as befor ?

[AndroidXP]

or the slow ones be fasterAnd how are you going to achieve that? Anit-gravity plates to make them lighter? NOS?

[spankmeyer]

Anything to make his XRT move that precious .14 seconds faster... :smileypul

EDIT: Of course, this was just my 'oppinion' and you have no right to question me. But discuss anyway. :)

Thank you for reading.

[Gunn]

When an incompatible patch gets released the LFS World times are usually wiped clean anyway. It won't be the first time we have had to start again, it is expected. Every time there is a physics change or a change in the cars, you can expect times to be different. Also you can expect setups to be different as well.

As mentioned already, this is a test patch. Scawen has already said that the final parameters of the handicapping system are not yet complete (hence the test period). We must wait until development of the current features is complete before we know the outcome of the new changes, in real terms, on the track.

It may very well turn out that in future some cars never reach old world record times while others exceed their current best. There is no rule that says they should always get faster with each physics update. The aim in class balancing is to allow different types of cars to be more evenly matched, if that can be achieved by weight penalties etc, most people would consider that a positive outcome.

The XRT has always been too loose anyway, handling improvements are very welcome IMO.

[herki]

I don't want to trade in a balanced class, just because one user thinks one car is too slow and boring on one track.
It's like saying "powerboost the LX6, I find it boring to drive on WE1", so a big -1 from me to OP

[Vykos69]

I bet a zillion dollars, that the performance on the Oval is _NOT_ deciding for the balance of the cars. If there's one car a bit faster on oval, then it should be it. More important is the more equal performance on the tracks where you actually have to know how to brake, overtake and turn right. ;)

[JJ72]

you dont get my point.

the xrt

is



too






slow




it feels like a rb4 going around the oval now. liturally :sleep2:

they should of just boosted up the slower cars.

how on earth you would expect a tiny 2 litre turbo car on a wide open oval is anything near fast.

if you don't like the slower cars, go pick a faster one. as simple as that. :schwitz:

[JJ72]

they should have a way of turning it off via admin that would be usefull so they was same weight as befor ?

YOU ACTUALLY CAN DO THAT.

[Jakg]

so thats just messed up anywaythe devs have tried to balance the cars for ALL tracks, and they can't get a happy medium because their different cars. Take the XFR and UFR - the UFR has more grip at low speed because of its little weight, and is nice and nippy, its higher power-to-weight ratio gives it more punch, but the XFR has 60 horses more and therefore goes faster in a straight line - to stop the UFR getting raped on tracks like Aston, they've given the XFR weight, but at SO the nippy UFR was already in the lead, and all its done is slow down the XFR even more - now its up to the community to find ballast and restriction settings to level the cars off therethey should of just boosted up the slower cars.and how do you propose, using nothing but restrictor plates and ballast, that they do that?

[tristancliffe]

Oval is boring anyway. Now you'll fall asleep 0.2 seconds sooner than you did before (usually before the first turn).

/runs away from FM

[DanneDA]

The penalty system needs to be track-combo specific to be good. Will take a lot of work to get it done properly, but once done it'll be possible to win with every car in it's class on any given combo.

Balancing per combo is going to take a lot of time to make it perfect though, is it worth it?

One good thing has come of this tho: Aliens won't run away with the race now, even you can win a race with them (but they probably need to be a bit heavier than you).

[nihil]

This seems a bit odd to me - has the FXO been treated to more weight too? 'Cause on the STCC servers, the only thing that keeps the XRT from drowning in a sea of rapidly cornering FXOs is its straight line speed (seems to me that sorting out the diffs would be more of a priority than piddling around with weight dis/advantages...)

[Horci]

Why do we need to balance the cars for every track? I think this good how now works (W9). Just need to think about the cars limits. As Jakg said before.
You cant change the car's specifications. for example drivetrain, engine position, overall weight, (aerodinamic) wheel size, etc ...

For example FXO's weight point is much below (thanks to the flat engine) than RB4 or XRT. It makes him faster in the corners, but the balance isnt good. Most of the weight is in the front.
XRT is faster than RB4 in the straights thank to its better power/weight ratio.
RB4 have a full time 4WD :). Hopeless to challange with it in rallycross tracks.
etc ...
Every car have a little advantage in different type of tracks, or just in a specific section of the track. This makes the races more interesting. Should we put 200kg extra weight to the RB4 in rallyx tracks, to keep up the others with him?

I think we just have to keep the cars abilities in mind, and try to have great battles :eclipseeh

[Gabkicks]

lol you werent joking when you said you would make a thread complaining. :uglyhamme

[Vykos69]

The penalty system needs to be track-combo specific to be good.

No, and just rethink a bit, then you also know why.

[PLAYLIFE]

yes but thats the point. i dont want to eaven them out. because no one uses the other two for ovaling, they just use xrt, and now xrt is slower..

But they would use the other cars if they were evenly matched. Just give it time and it will be done. This test patch is not final.

[PLAYLIFE]

No, and just rethink a bit, then you also know why.

I agree with him and not you, Vykos. Otherwise, what's the point anyway!?

[geeman1]

This balancing system is not meant to make every car equal on every track. It's meant to offer a way of balancing the classes so that no car dominates on majority of the tracks and it is meant to this balancing without the need to release incompatible patches. This way balance issues can be addressed faster, more accurately and without the drawback of a physically incompatible patch.

[AndroidXP]

The point is this:
Don't be worried. As some others have answered already, it's not about that kind of laptime balancing. It's impossible to balance exactly a FWD, RWD and a AWD car. You can see we aren't trying to do something like that, and that's why the balancing is global and not track specific. The problem was that the FXO was seconds ahead on every track - so if you liked RWD you would lose to an FXO, guaranteed, no matter where you raced! And that's not how we wanted it. Now one car or another has strengths and weaknesses at different tracks.

[JJ72]

I agree with him and not you, Vykos. Otherwise, what's the point anyway!?

to bring the competition closer without killing the advantage/disadvantage of a car's characteristic on a certain track. leaving some car faster where it should be, depending on the track of choice.

[Gabkicks]

the cars are much closer in competition now.. at least a few races i've had have shown this. If we want perfectly equal racing, we should all drive the same exact car. I have to say i agree with vykos. The server/admin can do whatever he wants if he feels the cars are not close enough...

[tristancliffe]

Global balacing via master server is good, and has closed the gap in most cases.
Individual balancing is easily carried out per car type on a server.
Further balancing can be done by asking individual drivers to carry ballast (success ballast for example)
Next physics patch will bring car changes to aid balancing further.

I don't see what the problem is - as far as car balancing in LFS goes we're on the right track, and doing pretty damn good. Just because on one or two tracks the gap has widened, or because the XRT is slighty slower on the oval is a pointless discussion.

Take two cars that are perfectly balanced over a british championship using all the tracks. Then race those cars on a drag strip, on a dirt/gravel course, on ice etc and you'll find there is no such thing as a perfectly balanced pair of cars when you increase the number of variables (track types).

[Jimmy_Lemon]

YOU ACTUALLY CAN DO THAT.

okay. i never knew. so i can take the extra 20kg off my xrt on the tbo oval server me and my friends play via admin.?

how would i do that please

[sinbad]

No, and just rethink a bit, then you also know why.

To be fair, which TBO season is ever going to use Kyoto Oval as part of its rotation? There might be people who would have liked to do an oval series with TBO though, so there should at the VERY least be some kind of server side compulsory balancing, or else there might as well have been no balancing done at all. This is the perfect example of why track-specific balancing isn't actually such a thoughtless idea which the people who suggest it just need to think about for a while.

None of which helps the OP, though, because his complaint is that 20kg has made the GTT boring :) Use road normals, then the challenge will be there again.

[mikey_G]

by adjusting a slider?

[Jimmy_Lemon]

you cant remove the extra 20kg using the slider tho its grey'd out you can only change the position of it.

and yes eaven racing is good but the fact that its still not eaven on the tbo oval server me and my friend runs means we all use xrt still but now its boring because they grip alot better so its not "AS" challengeing and it gets boring quicker.

is there any admin commands to remove the extra 20kg then? thanks

[Jakg]

Not atm, no.

Just run road normals, or put the ballast in a place that makes it more unstable

[Jimmy_Lemon]

i have it fully to the rear like real nascar's and its .10 slower still.

mainly because if you try the world record line its not got enough BHP/ton to keep the speed up.

anyways nvm i just pray for the day s2 full is fully completed and everythings wiped clean no records instead of applying little things bit by bit, i think it would of been best just to do it all at once? :shrug:

ah well

[Bawbag]

not "AS" challengeing and it gets boring quicker.




I can't see how oval can be challenging especcially in TBO's and don't really see why and how you ever felt "challenged" in doing so. Also, if it's boring you, why not actualy try a track like blackwood or south city where you don't even need someone else to drive against to feel "challenged".

:really:

EDIT : If it were all done at once, there would be thousands of bugs to be found from player testing, not to mention the fact we wouldn't have many of the good things we do ATM, like the BF1, physics and aero updates.

Imagine the list of updates Scawen would need to do if it was "all at once". ;)

[Jakg]

then road normal time?

EDIT - Bawbag - in the TBO's there is either only one line round the last corner thats flat out and quick (FXO), or you have to lift off a little to get the best speed/line (XRT) - apparently now you can do it flat out and its boring. Try SO4R in the XRT, and then think about how you thought lifting off once a lap was interesting :D

[geeman1]

THIS IS JUST A QUICK FIX! BALANCED CARS = MORE FUN!

Sorry about the huge font, but many people seem to have totally misunderstood purpose of this balancing. In the final version of LFS the classes will be balanced without any handicaps. Untill then globally handicapping cars is the best way of keeping the classes balanced, because the balance can be changed without incompatible patches. THINK ABOUT THIS AND YOU WILL SEE WHY IT IS SO GREAT!

[Jimmy_Lemon]

i can see why balenced cars is fun. but destroying two great cars instead of making the not so great ones better isnt the right thing to do?.

because there no where neer balenced as standard on oval unless you reduce the power even more, which is making the good ones even more worse than theyv allready become :S

i guess we will have to wait and see what the rest of the patches offer untill s2 final :smileypul

[tristancliffe]

What do you mean worse than they've already become? I very much doubt the XRT, FXO or RB4 are even remotely difficult to drive on the oval, and now it's a bit slower meaning driver 'skill' (smoothness, rather than proper skill) is MORE important.

But in this context we don't care about your individual problem with one car on the oval - we're talking a global overall improvment. So what if you are now a wee bit slower.

[Jimmy_Lemon]

its actually about 80% smoother now so theres no skill on oval. befor you had to let off rather alot on last corner now you can just floor it so what you just said was total oposite of the real events

[geeman1]

i can see why balenced cars is fun. but destroying two great cars instead of making the not so great ones better isnt the right thing to do?.First of all making cars better really wasn't an option here and atleast FXO isn't a very realistic either and it will be made worse in the next incompatible physics patch for two reasons: 1. it will be more balanced with the rest of the TBO class 2. to make it more realistic.
Also the oval is an special enviroment. The choice was either to make all cars baalnced there or balanced at the other tracks, the reason why the latter was chosen should be obvious.

btw Oval isn't a very natural enviroment for TBOs either, oval is more suitable for cars with high power..
(I am not an expert on the subject, but I can't see them running a 250hp cars on ovals in real life)

[Jimmy_Lemon]

i guess so but the gtrs etc are boring on oval because you just floor it all the way around. which in real life most tracks you cant or you will be into a wall.

the best solution would probibly be an actuall stock car for the game with about 600bhp which is 100% uncontrollable then you have to scale down the power your self using the new handicapts that would be verry good.
+ different tyres as if it had the slicks like the gtrs it would just grip. and allso no downforce on the car would be good because then you would have to drive like a real stock car instead of letting downforce and grip do the work for you

who knows might happen one day? :scratchch :)

[mikey_G]

Racing is about doing the best humanly possible with the equipment what you got. So the car is 20 kilos heavier now, and 1 tenth slower, boohoo :x

[Jimmy_Lemon]

yup i know thats why i think its not good because its now not the best possible with what the car has to offer cause of extra weight? :shrug:

[mikey_G]

so? don't you think that happens in real life too?

I bet you wouldn't have moaned if you would've gone a tenth faster :D

[Jakg]

I very much doubt the XRT, FXO or RB4 are even remotely difficult to drive on the ovaltheir harder than the BF1, FO8 etc because you have to pick one specific line on the last corner if you want to go flat-out, or dont want to loose too much speed.

I did an event race there (FM Oval n00bs :D V STCC drivers), twas by far the easiest league race i've ever done, i put in all of about 100 laps practice (for the STCC i usually do 500-600), and before you say i was just slow - i won.

Its harder than you think, but that's not saying much, the skill in oval racing is all about overtaking

[Jakg]

stfu n00b :D

I love the FXO, I love its looks, I love its sound, I love its handling.

[Scawen]

killing 2 flies with one strike ... dunno how you Englishmen say this :DTwo birds with one stone. :nod:

[Jakg]

Scawen, make the FXO a diesel and I'll personally come to Twickenham and kill you. Just a word of warning.

Although I'm sure an FXO-diesel PLUS a normal FXO + a WRC FXO would go down a treat.

[JohnUK89]

Scawen, make the FXO a diesel and I'll personally come to twickenham and kill you. Just a word of warning.

Considering the entire LFS community would hang, draw and quarter you if you did, feel free :D

Back onto topic...I think the global balancing is a good idea, being a slow as hell n00b in the TBO's I need it to keep up with the RB4's and FXO's in the STCC :razz:

[Scawen]

Jakg - you didn't see, I was helping him with the English version of "two flies with one strike" - I have never suggested or supported putting a Diesel in LFS and I'll say that now before some crazy rumours start. The FXO will get a bit heavier and have narrow tyres, that's about it I guess.

I'm not involved with the "W9 complaint" thread, I just thought the two flies with one strike was amusing... I'll now unsubscribe from this thread, don't need to be in three separate W9 conversations.

[dev]

its actually about 80% smoother now so theres no skill on oval. befor you had to let off rather alot on last corner now you can just floor it so what you just said was total oposite of the real events
That's true :thumb: Globally...

[Jakg]

Jakg - you didn't see, I was helping him with the English version of "two flies with one strike" - I have never suggested or supported putting a Diesel in LFS and I'll say that now before some crazy rumours start. The FXO will get a bit heavier and have narrow tyres, that's about it I guess.

I'm not involved with the "W9 complaint" thread, I just thought the two flies with one strike was amusing... I'll now unsubscribe from this thread, don't need to be in three separate W9 conversations.i know, i was just worried that you might think "oooh, a diesel, thats a good idea...." and ruin my favourite car

[thisnameistaken]

Although I'm sure an FXO-diesel PLUS a normal FXO + a WRC FXO would go down a treat.

How about we just keep the regular FXO, but we add a fare meter on the top of the console, a two-way radio and one of those beaded seat covers?

[Scawen]

I've decided to move this thread to the test patch forum. There is one reason for a test patch forum, and it's so we don't spam the main forum with test patch discussions.

OK, done that, and unsubscribed again...

[Jimmy_Lemon]

who started off the deisel idea?? :shrug: thats dumb idea.. thanks for making scawen unsubscribe from the thread with the deisel noncense :weeping: lol

[geeman1]

who started off the deisel idea??desiel is so hard to spell too :(

[RedQuad]

desiel is so hard to spell too :(
lol its diesel fyi

[Jimmy_Lemon]

lol

[Jimmy_Lemon]

why didnt they just lower the weight of the slower cars? :shrug:

[spankmeyer]

Because there are things like big lumps of metal and heavy stuff inside cars which weight a plenty. Some cars just are heavier than others due to construction methods and quite often it's nearly impossible to remove a lot of the dead weight.

[evilgeek]

why didnt they just lower the weight of the slower cars? :shrug:

man, get over it.

[Jimmy_Lemon]

i mean to eaven them out.

[spankmeyer]

Because adding weight to unrealistically light cars (FXO) is a more realistic approach.

And rly... get over it.

[mikey_G]

why didnt they just lower the weight of the slower cars? :shrug:
stop crying. A real driver drives the car he's offered to the best possible. Your whole pathetic crying about 20 kilos is just beyond stupid.

[Jimmy_Lemon]

you havent done a few thousend laps going in a circle you dont know the half of it.

you have no idea what im talking about hardly any one does unless youv been there so comments like that are just stupid

[ATC Quicksilver]

Why the hell would we want to drive a slow car in circles anyway? :shrug:

If you want to balance them out for the oval then you can use the custom ballast and restrictor options.

[mikey_G]

you havent done a few thousend laps going in a circle you dont know the half of it.

you have no idea what im talking about hardly any one does unless youv been there so comments like that are just stupid
Driving in circles isnt that hard to comprehend., your moaning about 20 kilos is...
So is your punctuation :x

[Jimmy_Lemon]

oh. my. god.

youv not read a thing iv put, im not bothered that there not ballenced still.

im bothered that its now boring to do xrt on oval because you dont get loose.

you just keep the gas on all the way around because the extra 20kg gives it more grip!! read what iv been saying >.<

[evilgeek]

you havent done a few thousend laps going in a circle you dont know the half of it.

you have no idea what im talking about hardly any one does unless youv been there so comments like that are just stupid

basically what you are saying is, "don't change MY car, change someone else's." well guess what? other people have put time into setting up the other cars too, and would also have to change their setups. you are being a big, selfish baby. the changes the devs are making are good for the game, and everyone will have to deal with them.

and if you do a quick search, you will see that balancing within the TBO and GTR classes has been requested a million times, so it's a change that most people are in favour of.

[Belain]

so then make a setup to let your car behave more loose.......

[joen]

you havent done a few thousend laps going in a circle you dont know the half of it.

you have no idea what im talking about hardly any one does unless youv been there so comments like that are just stupid

So one can only know what they're talking about unless they drove thousands of laps on the oval? lol

You're right, nobody understands your problem. Maybe you're one of the very few finding this a problem? The question is are all those people crazy, wrong and ignorant, or could it be that just maybe you're overreacting?

Hint: you WILL lose your WR someday, and not just once.
LFS is a game undergoing development, things have changed in the past, more things will change in the future. Get over it, get a life, move on, stop crying.

One thing I notice BTW that whenever something "bad" is said about oval racing, the standard reply is "you don't drive the oval much, so you can't have an opinion on it".

[Jimmy_Lemon]

im not saying dont change just my car!!! im saying that the fact the cars are just more grippyer etc is boring.

there road cars not gtrs they shouldnt grip

[mikey_G]

then add 200 kilos to the back, problem solved

[mr_x]

oh. my. god.

youv not read a thing iv put, im not bothered that there not ballenced still.

im bothered that its now boring to do xrt on oval because you dont get loose.

you just keep the gas on all the way around because the extra 20kg gives it more grip!! read what iv been saying >.<
20kg that makes things even (in theory).

Big deal, this is all for the good of LFS. The TBO and GTR classes have needed balancing for a long time, and now this is a step in the right direction.

If you don't like the XRT on the oval, then race it on a track that goes left AND right, you'll find it much more fun racing bumper to bumper with FXOs and RB4s.

Also if you haven't noticed already, you're the only person complaining about it. Get over it, it's not as if it's going to change your life, and if it is, then I suggest you go and find a social life. :scratchch

[Jimmy_Lemon]

and by the way im not crying.


think of it like this. xrt is most used car here. and why they didnt just leave it as it is, is beyond me

[mikey_G]

and by the way im not crying.


think of it like this. xrt is most used car here. and why they didnt just leave it as it is, is beyond me You've been crying since you started this topic, and the xrt is hardly the most used car....

[Jimmy_Lemon]

out of the tbos it is. but yet again xrt is rwd which can do more stuff.

but back to the topic. this is just a complaint. and like i said in my 1st post im not argueing its my "OPINION" so say your opinion or leave cause this isnt a argument thread

[Baked Nut]

you havent done a few thousend laps going in a circle you dont know the half of it.

you have no idea what im talking about hardly any one does unless youv been there so comments like that are just stupid

LMAO you say your a nascar fan but you complaining about a light turbo cars balancing on the oval.

The car balancing is done for the benefit of all across all the tracks not just the 1 track.

qq moar

[dawesdust_12]

Thanks for the ancient bump :)

[Baked Nut]

Well considering its ancient....it was on page 1 of the Test Patch forum. So don't blame me :shrug: