Incompatible **TEST** Patch W9

[Breizh]

Ok, so handicaps are not going to be track specific. I see the logic behind it, good for people doing seasons on lots of circuits. The cars will, however, be genuinely balanced on a small number of tracks. Any track where the RB4 was competitive before will now be RB4 dominated. So it's not as much help for the majority of racers who just pick-up and play, same problem, different cars.

Still, FXO seems slower overall, which was the main objective in TBO I suppose.
If handicaps are able to be scripted, then we can adapt them to each track in the server's rotation.

About erroneous false-start penalties: I've always seen MPR replays where cars would jitter around a bit while on the grid, before the green light came out.
So it seems to be an extrapolation error somewhere, because I've always seen the same thing online in real time - cars jumping around a bit, apparently just revving their engines or moving their steering wheel about, and sometimes not doing anything (as far as I could tell).

[srdsprinter]

man this is awesome. I was just online with 45 or so other people. It was nuts!

Best part, completely smooth gameplay, no lag or poor FPS.

LFS is by far the best coded game I've ever played.

MAJOR Kudos to the Dev team! :D

[Jakg]

Scawen, have you optimised this code at all? i usually get about 45 FPS with a full grid, and now with the extra 8 cars on track i only get 40 FPS, which which is a ~12.5% decrease in FPS for 40% more cars!

Great work Scawen, now go and get yerself a pint!

[matze54564]

Can't confirm that, I made a point in staying in neutral and standing on the brake before lights come on, but I still got booted off for a false start, together with about 5-10 other people on a 22 car grid. :shrug:

Thats true, my handbrake was on and i was sent to spectate!

@franky500: i don´t figured out the right place to speak about "500 Servers W9" Maybe its just some misunderstanding?

[danowat]

Can I just ask what the point of all the extra spec slots are for?, not complaining, but 20 odd spec slots is a little excessive IMO

[tristancliffe]

Useful for endurance races where driver changes need room for the non-driver, and league events where you want marshalls, clerks of courses, administrators etc. And for people who just want to watch.

I reckon 'full' servers will calm down soon enough though, at the moment novelty value is keeping people on servers...

[Jakg]

it is a little excessive, but for stuff like the 24h race there tends to be (ideally i'd think) a driver waiting and keeping in contact with the driver currently racing, who can now watch the race

EDIT - z0mG t3h Ex F0rUm Wh0r3 b3a1m3! z0mg-noes!

[Doorman]

People! Why dont u get it that this is a testpatch forum and u should only post something if u found a bug or have a crash? This thread is just getting way to big.
Indeed. Needs a cull.

my first cent and now the second...
I have a very strange bug and couldnt find a post about this (maybe because the thread is full of ****)!

So when i start a Qualification i start in the Pits, that is actually fine but I have a message (False Start - sent to Spec).

best regards
Seconded. Restarting a qualifying session is the same. i.e. you can be on track and instead of 'respawning' on track you're sent to spectate and get the message. You then have to select 'join'

[duke_toaster]

Useful for endurance races where driver changes need room for the non-driver, and league events where you want marshalls, clerks of courses, administrators etc. And for people who just want to watch.

If your league involves live (or as-live) commentary, you can have several commenators, potentially in different languages.

And people running statistical apps and stuff like that.

[danowat]

I understand all that, but 20+ spec slots?.......

[Brikkah]

Thanx for the patch!

But when in options menu, both in View and in Display you can set digital speedo.

I don't think it's nessecary to put this option twice in the game ?

ThaRooP

[Jakg]

I understand all that, but 20+ spec slots?.......why not? as i understand it it wouldn't take extra coding to up it to 30 or 47, he might as well make it future-proof

[srdsprinter]

I agree. It should be particularly useful in any organized event, allowing easier driver changes and/or more marshalls.

[Patussay]

and what is the trouble on get more features, if you dont like it, dont use it. :really:
and the server can limit the amount of coneections, so, it doesn`t matter at all

[sinbad]

I've changed my mind about the "handicaps". If they're just changes to the car, then the cars should always be the same everywhere, single or multi. If they're truly handicaps, though, then why not have them work properly everywhere if it's possible to do so, which it is.

[felplacerad]

My take on the "A race is starting" bug:

It seems to happen if you change tracks on a server but leave it without joining the grid and starting the race. Admins, keep this in mind.

[duke_toaster]

I understand all that, but 20+ spec slots?.......

/maxcars exploit could be used IF IT STILL WORKS.

[Shotglass]

Don't be worried. As some others have answered already, it's not about that kind of laptime balancing. It's impossible to balance exactly a FWD, RWD and a AWD car. You can see we aren't trying to do something like that, and that's why the balancing is global and not track specific. The problem was that the FXO was seconds ahead on every track - so if you liked RWD you would lose to an FXO, guaranteed, no matter where you raced! And that's not how we wanted it. Now one car or another has strengths and weaknesses at different tracks.

Very nice but like others said, you should make clear which restrictions are currently in place. ATM you cant train in sp, since you won´t know which voluntary handicaps you have to set to match the involuntary handicaps you´ll encounter once you log on.

There´s a problem with the race setup screen in multiplayer. If I´m not mistaken (almost) all drivers on the server have to click ok the start the race which takes ages with 48 clients 20 of which are speccing and maybe AFK.

For example, if the left wheel is on the ground and the right one in the air, then an open diff would just spin the one in the air, thus providing 100% torque to the freely spinning wheel.

Actually thats very very wrong.
An open diff will always apply the same torque to both wheels (hard to grasp; I think I nearly brought Todd to the point where he wanted to kill me to end my stupidity when he tried to explain it to me)

Android, thanks for the explanation, but what does it actually mean?
When you drive with very low preload compared to very high? Can it be explained in terms of how the car feels or handles?

Basically it means you´ll always have the effect of a diff that´s locked to some degree.
Without preload your diff will be completely open when you shift or generally when you clutch out.
With preload you set a lower threshold below which the amount of lock your diff has can´t fall.
So when it comes to handling you won´t have to deal with the instability under shifting while trailbraking you encountered with previous versions of the clutch pack diff.
Also in case anyone here is a drfiter; clutch kicking wont work as well with preload.

no. On SO Sprint 1 & 2, as well as on AS Cadet, the number of cars in race is restricted to 16 automatically because these tracks are simply too short for a higher amount of cars.

Then why can we put 28 cars on FE club?

:really: Please explain...

Think of it in terms of continuity restrictions.
Basically a diff is a discontinuity in the driveline. Now if you have an open diff this discontinuity naturally cannot pass any torque in axial direction (through the diff from one wheel to the other). Therefore the toque must be equal at both wheels.

I don't recall exactly but I think there was some rule in Formula 1 with regards to the car having to move only 0.1s after the green lights because anything less than that would mean that you were expecting green rather than reacting to it... is this how it has been implemented in LFS or is it if you move after green?

IMHO it´s a stupid rule (much more so with the internet adding at least that much in lag to it)

/maxcars exploit could be used IF IT STILL WORKS.

someone please test this :)

[Jakg]

someone please test this :)it accepts the command (Sam tried), but where do you propose to get 27 other drivers from?

[ebola]

I don't recall exactly but I think there was some rule in Formula 1 with regards to the car having to move only 0.1s after the green lights because anything less than that would mean that you were expecting green rather than reacting to it... is this how it has been implemented in LFS or is it if you move after green?

Im glad you posted this because I was thinking the same. It is not physically possible to react before a certain time, so anything quicker must have been a lucky guess.

I never forgot when Linford Christie was disqualified from athletics, he actually went after the gun was fired but it was not humanly possible for him to react that fast and so he was disqualified.

[Kalev EST]

it accepts the command (Sam tried), but where do you propose to get 27 other drivers from?
AI´s!!! :thumb:

[geeman1]

it accepts the command (Sam tried), but where do you propose to get 27 other drivers from?1. Make a server with somewhat popular combo
2. Name the server to something in the line of "47 racers test server"
3. ???
4. Profit.

[Jakg]

AI´s!!! :thumb:we can add only 3 AI per PC, so we'd still need 10 people to turn up to do it

[Jakg]

1. Make a server with somewhat popular combo
2. Name the server to something in the line of "47 racers test server"
3. ???
4. Profit.i dont have the bandwidth to do that, and i could nick UKCT Bumperz, but i'd need to change the config file which would require someone to RDC into the server and change it

[AndroidXP]

Actually thats very very wrong.
An open diff will always apply the same torque to both wheels (hard to grasp; I think I nearly brought Todd to the point where he wanted to kill me to end my stupidity when he tried to explain it to me)
...
Think of it in terms of continuity restrictions.
Basically a diff is a discontinuity in the driveline. Now if you have an open diff this discontinuity naturally cannot pass any torque in axial direction (through the diff from one wheel to the other). Therefore the toque must be equal at both wheels.
I think I get what you mean, but this seems to be more of a problem in using the correct terms to describe things. Like I said, I'm not very good at that :shy:. I guess the point is, that instead of the right wheel getting all the torque, actually neither wheel gets it. The wheel spinning in the air almost doesn't need any torque to rotate, so the wheel having grip doesn't get any either.

[geeman1]

i dont have the bandwidth to do that, and i could nick UKCT Bumperz, but i'd need to change the config file which would require someone to RDC into the server and change itWell, it doesn't have to be entirely smooth just for testing and you would only need 29 racers to test this out. If one more is possible, it is possible to have even more.
Anyway, I am sure some will test this sooner or later.

[Shotglass]

it accepts the command (Sam tried), but where do you propose to get 27 other drivers from?

a few hours ago there were ~45 clients on frankys 500 server
dont think its all that hard to get 47 drivers on a server to film the biggest t1 crash of all times (think blues brothers)

I think I get what you mean, but this seems to be more of a problem in using the correct terms to describe things. Like I said, I'm not very good at that :shy:. I guess the point is, that instead of the right wheel getting all the torque, actually neither wheel gets it. The wheel spinning in the air almost doesn't need any torque to rotate, so the wheel having grip doesn't get any either.

Exactly so what the wheel in the air actually gets is all the power
But because of this (highly common) mistake your tables were wrong as well. If I´m not mistaken the preload you set is the min amount of difference in torque between both wheels.

[Jakg]

a few hours ago there were ~45 clients on frankys 500 server
dont think its all that hard to get 47 drivers on a server to film the biggest t1 crash of all times (think blues brothers)im not an Admin on Frankies server, so you'll have to ask him, but without being harsh, his server really didnt like the load of the 35 connections and 28 racers, i reckon it would probably through a wobbly and start randomly booting people

[The General Lee]

Great patch guys.

Only snag I hit was the false start bonanza.

May have just been me, but did anyone find it more rewarding racing against 27 other drivers. T1 was as someone said on Franky's server, a lottery. Very rewarding if you made it, and it wasnt all that bad if you didnt make it because with everyone bunched up together you made back places very quickly.

I think that 48 is to many on the connection side. :shrug:

[Shotglass]

im not an Admin on Frankies server, so you'll have to ask him, but without being harsh, his server really didnt like the load of the 35 connections and 28 racers, i reckon it would probably through a wobbly and start randomly booting people

i know the point was its not that hard to get the whole forum on a server
and personally i didnt expierence any noteworthy lag on his server with 28 racers and 40-45 clients despite having bit torrent running

[garph]

i know the point was its not that hard to get the whole forum on a server
and personally i didnt expierence any noteworthy lag on his server with 28 racers and 40-45 clients despite having bit torrent running
Why would you keep downloading stuff? You could be causing a problem for others, even if it only causes a little bit of lag it could totally mess things up :shrug:

[ATC Quicksilver]

Well you don't need to have the full amount of people on the server, 500servers are just testing if it can run with that amount...and it can run without any lag at all, some peoples connections were dodgy with only 23 people so they are bound to be bad with so many more.

The only time the full amount would be useful is in the endurance races where you need to swap cars and also extra space for admins.

I've yet to have a problem with false starts, but thats probably due to me reacting to the green light rather than trying to predict it.

[Widdowmaker]

Ive been thinking alot about the "no space Bar ressetting option". I agree this is realistic and that there should be this option. I however see numerous reasons why there should be a middle option. The middle option being how it previously was.

Not every server is full of hardcore racers in full on, full blow league racing, not every server is demo, or introduction racing. There are those Friday night servers where racing for fun - is ruined by being rolled and having to reset, cope with the damage struggle to the pit and go out and join your mates again.

With a server with 48 people, all they are going to do - is shift+S, go back to the pits and re join the race but however many laps down - real angry and then possibly wreck some one else race, when really if you want to go the whole realism thing - they should not be able to shift+S at all - and go straight to spectate.

Because there are 48 connections, racing - some people will sit waiting to join the race for ages - then to be flipped on to your roof by an inocous, nothing of a tap - then have to restart from the pit is abit lame - when its a friday night, out for some fun.

Another reason - Rallying - on how many occasion do we see rally cars righted by the crowd? OK - in this circumstance we dont have a full rallying setup yet -but if it is to be introduced, then so should the space bar reset (I believe).

I also feel that if it is realism that we are aiming at - then why do we have multiple racing views? Why are we not locked to driving from in car only?

I do feel that the old space bar reseting should not be ruled out and that it should be left as a server side option, for the server hoster to decide.

One mans view - that could possible do with a spin off thread??

[[TDRT] Spøgelset]

:thumb: Very good - no reset on space.
:thumb: Very good as well - the race start.

I think I have a minor problem here. I always have had lapper running on my dedicated demo server. Before patching the cars were called XF GTI and XR GT and it now has changed to XFG and XRG. Now lappers starts to create 2 new PB databases. One for XFG and XRG. It doesn´t do anything to my old !top PB lists anymore.Noobs are running track records and other racers do a new PB which is 5 secs. of their actual !top list rankings. Pls. help me out here. I think I have to tell lapper that XF GTI is now called XFG or - second possibility -my server that XFG is to be called XF GTI ... Sorry if I´m offtopic.

DanishRacingProServer

[felplacerad]

Spøgelset,

This is an issue for monkster to sort out, please refer to the LFSLapper thread in the unofficial addons section.

[KMSpeed]

Widdowmaker, I totally understand what you are saying and you have some strong points but as a personal opinion of course I'd rather unbind the reset button once and for all.

Yes, it seems harsh to shift-s if you flip over, but it adds a liitle thrill to the game not having the reset option. Plus no more popping cars in the middle of the chicanes.

And tbh I think Scawen removed that mid-option reset (reset car but no fixed damage) on purpose, as a way to discourage us from using it.

[Blowtus]

One point in favour of a 'middle option' for resetting, is that LFS's current collision dynamics leave something to be desired... having an important race ruined because you clipped the wrong section of wall or scored a lag moonflight, is going to be rather frustrating. I'm a fan of the notion of going without resets, but not until the collisions are more realistic.

[[TDRT] Spøgelset]

Spøgelset,

This is an issue for monkster to sort out, please refer to the LFSLapper thread in the unofficial addons section.

Well, mayby it is. Anyways hosts upgrading to W9 with this:

DEDICATED HOST (for hosting only) :
http://www.liveforspeed.net/file_lfs...S2_DEDI_W9.zip

file from post 1 of this thread might run into the same problems.

In my oppinion the server settings of this file has to be changed and not the lapper. But I´m not at all sure about it.

[Fischfix]

is it possible to have weight not only front/back but also left/right?

[amp88]

Im glad you posted this because I was thinking the same. It is not physically possible to react before a certain time, so anything quicker must have been a lucky guess.

I never forgot when Linford Christie was disqualified from athletics, he actually went after the gun was fired but it was not humanly possible for him to react that fast and so he was disqualified.

I don't think this is the case. In single player, after a few test runs I managed to guess and time it perfectly so I was in 1st gear as close to the green as possible, but I didn't get a penalty. So, does this mean the multiplayer jump start detection is unreliable due to lag (or other complications), or is it just that the MPR file doesn't accurately portray startline events?

Scawen, can we please get some confirmation on this matter?

[Davo]

Spøgelset;393383']Well, mayby it is. Anyways hosts upgrading to W9 with this:

DEDICATED HOST (for hosting only) :
http://www.liveforspeed.net/file_lfs...S2_DEDI_W9.zip

file from post 1 of this thread might run into the same problems.

In my oppinion the server settings of this file has to be changed and not the lapper. But I´m not at all sure about it.
It's a lapper issue and already sorted. Download lapper version 3.8 and it's fixed.

[imthebestracerthereis]

I love you devs :D

[AlexanderRhodes]

More commands now work on AI drivers : /spec /pitlane /p_xxx

whats this?

[Dygear]

By revving your car's engine (You'll notice this more in the FO8 and the BF1) your car will move from side to side, or twist on it's Z axis.

The MPR files seem to be a little bit slower. It would seem they only update at a maximum 60 times a second instead of the 100 the game engine runs at.

[Shotglass]

Why would you keep downloading stuff? You could be causing a problem for others, even if it only causes a little bit of lag it could totally mess things up :shrug:

i was specing

One point in favour of a 'middle option' for resetting, is that LFS's current collision dynamics leave something to be desired... having an important race ruined because you clipped the wrong section of wall or scored a lag moonflight, is going to be rather frustrating. I'm a fan of the notion of going without resets, but not until the collisions are more realistic.

i was going to poast that as well so +1
also lfs shouldnt lose its appeal as a pick up and play sim

[Cue-Ball]

Not every server is full of hardcore racers in full on, full blow league racing, not every server is demo, or introduction racing. There are those Friday night servers where racing for fun - is ruined by being rolled and having to reset, cope with the damage struggle to the pit and go out and join your mates again.In real life those drivers would not be limping back to the pits at all. Either their car would be towed off track, or they'd be taken to the hospital by helicopter. Right now you can wreck your car quite badly and still limp back to the pits. In the real world this is not an option. Not to mention the fact that many of the people nursing their cars back to the pits ruin others' races by going slowly down the track, often on the racing line. Frankly, I would rather see these people fix their car and get on with it rather than trying to drive 3/4 of a lap with two broken springs and the front tires turned opposite directions.

In addition to the new "no reset" option, we need increased suspension and engine damage. Once that is implemented, realism should take a drastic turn for the better.

If it's a beginner or pick-up race, resetting can be left turned on with the car being repaired. If it's a league or serious race resetting can be turned off and mid-race join can be turned off. We need better damage, but I think "can fix car" and "can't fix car" are enough options.

With a server with 48 people, all they are going to do - is shift+S, go back to the pits and re join the race but however many laps down - real angry and then possibly wreck some one else race, when really if you want to go the whole realism thing - they should not be able to shift+S at all - and go straight to spectate.If someone does a Shift+S and then tries to wreck other racers, they get banned. Nothing about that will change with this new option.

Because there are 48 connections, racing - some people will sit waiting to join the race for ages - then to be flipped on to your roof by an inocous, nothing of a tap - then have to restart from the pit is abit lame - when its a friday night, out for some fun.Firstly, there are 48 connections, but not 48 racers. Big difference. Secondly, what's the problem with having to restart from the pits? In the real world you wouldn't get to restart AT ALL. Getting to restart from the pits doesn't seem so bad. If it's not a serious race either leave resetting on or don't sweat starting back from the pits since you lose nothing by not coming in first.

I also feel that if it is realism that we are aiming at - then why do we have multiple racing views? Why are we not locked to driving from in car only?Check out the improvements section for some nice, long discussions about that very topic. ;)

[Riders Motion]

By revving your car's engine (You'll notice this more in the FO8 and the BF1) your car will move from side to side, or twist on it's Z axis.

The MPR files seem to be a little bit slower. It would seem they only update at a maximum 60 times a second instead of the 100 the game engine runs at.

Hmm.... Remembers me that Dodge Charger from FnF :D:thumbsup:

[felplacerad]

More commands now work on AI drivers : /spec /pitlane /p_xxx

whats this?

/lfs/docs/commands.txt

[GFresh]

By revving your car's engine (You'll notice this more in the FO8 and the BF1) your car will move from side to side, or twist on it's Z axis.

Are you suggesting that this is new? It's not :shrug:

[tomylee]

Scawen, I want to kiss you :D

JUST KIDDING, but I love false starts :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
the same should be for the pit stop as well :)

*tomyleeisspeakingreallycalm*

[Dygear]

Are you suggesting that this is new? It's not :shrug:

No, I'm saying it could be the reason for the false false starts.

[[TDRT] Spøgelset]

It's a lapper issue and already sorted. Download lapper version 3.8 and it's fixed.

I now have installed version3.8 but unfortunately it doesn´t do the trick as I was running server version 0.5V only. But thanks for helping I´ll now read/ask in LFSLapper thread in the unofficial addons section.

EDIT: opening the PB.txt with notepad and changing all entries:
a) XF GTI to XFG
b) XR GT to XRG
c) XR GT TURBO to XRT

was the solution for me.

[JasonJ]

Sorry for another post, but I simply must say something about this occasional "false"-false-starting. Many are saying it's the people trying to predict the green light or they are not engaging brakes or they are "gunning" the engine. When it happened to me, it happened as soon as the race restarted. I didn't even get a chance to see the grid infront of me. I had not touched anything control related. It just through me into spectate with a false-start warning along with 6 or so other people.

I have tried gunning the engine other times. No false-start. I have even tried to false start on purpose in multiplayer and moved about 2 meters, false-start message appeared with a drive-through penalty. Great it worked perfect.

There just seems to be a little false-start glitch occasionally, no biggie - I'm sure scawen is working hard on it. Just because you have not experienced it yet, does not mean it does not happen. Thanks everyone.

[AndroidXP]

No, I'm saying it could be the reason for the false false starts.
No, the false² starts also occur when you don't touch the controls in any way. They seem to be completely random. :shrug:

[DEVIL 007]

Scawen, have you optimised this code at all? i usually get about 45 FPS with a full grid, and now with the extra 8 cars on track i only get 40 FPS, which which is a ~12.5% decrease in FPS for 40% more cars!

Great work Scawen, now go and get yerself a pint!

I would a bit disagree or there could some discussion.I sometimes feel - well I see it on my screen :).Just tried yesterday to put 16AI on track.When the cars where driving on track and almost all AI were close to each other, I had from wheel view with 1st car around 250 FPS when game was paused(I guess when game is paused physic calculations are not happening) and with 2nd car I had around 150 FPS. Its not about I have this huge FPS and I am complaing but I think this "bug" affect huge grid start FPS drop or where there are many cars around.If my assume is right that when the games is paused that physic calculation is not done then it has nothing to do with CPU power.

It doesnt not make sense to me that with only 1 car drowed before me the FPS drop is so huge.I see this behavious in LFS 3D engine very often and it give a HUGE question why this is happening.Something wrong with utilising Vertex engine in some cases? I would like to really know the answer to it and if from Scawen this could be even better.

If this could be "fixed" somehow then we could have some nice FPS boost especially at grid start with many cars.Maybe if Scawen could try NVPerfKit (http://developer.nvidia.com/object/nvperfkit_home.html) for vertex peformance? I wanted to try it myself just for curiosity on LFS but LFS is not DX8.1 which is the minimal requirements.Its just DX8.

I think my PC spec are good so this should not happening.
AMD 3200+
2x512 MB RAM,CL2.5,Command rate 1T
NVIDIA GeForce 7900GT

SORRY IF THIS IS TOO MUCH OFF TOPIC

[tristancliffe]

Am I right that the false start spectate (after 4m) is disabled when you're along on the grid (in multiplayer) or always in single player? Because I tested it offline, and never got the expected spectate. Didn't try it online because I'm on the grid to race not to purposely get spectated (and I haven't been online much recently anyway).

[AndroidXP]

I had from wheel view with 1st car around 250 FPS when game was paused(I guess when game is paused physic calculations are not happening) and with 2nd car I had around 150 FPS.If you're in first car, you have no other cars in front of you, thus saving a ton of polygons to be rendered. If you're in second car, there is the first one in front (duh) which of course takes some calculation power.

More important: Please realise that a drop from 250fps to 150fps is NOT huge. The rendering time for a frame simply changed from 4ms to 6.6ms. If you had 50fps (20ms), this would be equal to a drop to 44fps (22.6ms).

[Scawen]

So when i start a Qualification i start in the Pits, that is actually fine but I have a message (False Start - sent to Spec).I couldn't reproduce that locally but I could reproduce "False start - drive through penalty" in qualifying mode.

Single player and demo races now up to 16 cars

does it mean 16 cars in race + 1 spectator?
should i set 17 connections in setup.cfg?I am going to change this soon, to 16 connections, but only 12 actually racing in the demo.

A simple question :) :
Atm with 20 players limit + 4 spectator there is a command that allow you to set the server for 23 players and 1 spectator. (i have played some times ago into some 23 slots servers)

There will be the same command with the next patch? (allowing to set some servers with 47 players? :D )No, that is not possible.

I understand all that, but 20+ spec slots?.......Driver changes in endurance races, etc. Absolutely vital. And it doesn't harm anyone if the server is up to it. Anyone hosting should use the bandwidth calculator in the client version of LFS to check the upload requirements and do not overload.

I've changed my mind about the "handicaps". If they're just changes to the car, then the cars should always be the same everywhere, single or multi. If they're truly handicaps, though, then why not have them work properly everywhere if it's possible to do so, which it is.I can't change them in single player because you are not connected to the internet. And this would destroy the hotlap tables. The handicaps (or other changes like narrower tyres on the fxo) will become permanent in the next physics update.

There´s a problem with the race setup screen in multiplayer. If I´m not mistaken (almost) all drivers on the server have to click ok the start the race which takes ages with 48 clients 20 of which are speccing and maybe AFK.Only drivers have to click ready, not spectators, if I am wrong please test and tell me.

There just seems to be a little false-start glitch occasionally, no biggie - I'm sure scawen is working hard on it. Just because you have not experienced it yet, does not mean it does not happen. Thanks everyone.I guess some position packets are flying over from the previous race - that could cause the server to make you spectate (it thinks you are 4 metres away already before green light). And about the false start penalties, I can only guess at the moment it things the revving car twitch is actual motion. Pure guesses, I had a day off yesterday for the first time in while.

To the other person who was pressing me for an answer - obviously I cannot give answers without investigating. Just give me time. It's a test patch for finding issues, it's not the official version of LFS, and quite clearly I won't leave it with that glitch, and when I know the answer, of course I would tell you or release the fix.

[DEVIL 007]

If you're in first car, you have no other cars in front of you, thus saving a ton of polygons to be rendered. If you're in second car, there is the first one in front (duh) which of course takes some calculation power.

More important: Please realise that a drop from 250fps to 150fps is NOT huge. The rendering time for a frame simply changed from 4ms to 6.6ms. If you had 50fps (20ms), this would be equal to a drop to 44fps (22.6ms).

Hi AndroidXP,
I know quite good when there is no car in front me only track is renders but still something is rendered.I am not such a noob ....:D

Still the LFS cars has not so much polygons to make such a drop.And DROP is still huge even you saying the opposite.Its not about the "ms" staff you are talking about.60 percent drop with track+just 1 more car looks really odd and huge drop to me.When I am in 3rd car the drop is not so huge....etc.The drop seems very non-linear.I only saw this with games badly optimised in 3D engine. LFS seems overally very effective but sometimes these drops doesnt make really sense to me on very powerfull machines.

I really dont want to steal this thread by this 3D stuff so this is my last post regarding this but as I said something looks probably "wrong". I could make testing with examples if needed.

Overally I would like to thx Scawen for this patch.Looks realy promising in the multiplayer area and the clutch thing as well.I am looking forward for the next updates...

[geeman1]

And about the false start penalties, I can only guess at the moment it things the revving car twitch is actual motion.I don't think that's it. I am in 1st with clutch pressed on the grid and I rev the engine. Usually that works fine, no penalties. Some times I do get spectated for doing exactly the same thing. Those times I have got spectated I have been able to be on the grid for while (revving or not).
That packets from previous race sounds like the most reasonable explanation to me.

[XRRoy]

don't have time to test but just want to say :wow:

[AndroidXP]

...No, again, the drop is absolutely irrelevant. The higher you get with framerates, the less they mean. It's really the frame rendering time which is far more important. For example, I coded a little sprite based "spaceshooter", and while not rendering anything but the ship I got like 2000fps (0.5ms frame rendering time). Then I added a few enemies and suddenly I had a "huge" drop down to only 800fps (1.25ms per frame). The real difference was only 0.75ms, but the frame rate display showed a huge drop. Trust me, this is no bug -the way fps are calculated is deceiving you there.

[Woz]

I couldn't reproduce that locally but I could reproduce "False start - drive through penalty" in qualifying mode.

Just to let you know. Fresh of playing on a W9 server. I was only person on the server and when qual restarted got the False start and was jumped to pits every time I Shift+Q.

Preload has made huge difference to the cars. Has made things just that more natural feeling. The RA now only wants to kill you sometimes :)

[Madman_CZ]

I couldn't reproduce that locally but I could reproduce "False start - drive through penalty" in qualifying mode.


Hi Scawen,

I have today downloaded and installed the W9 test patch and I have also come across the bug where by joining a server picking your car and then leaving your garage I was booted off with a "false start - return to spectate" message as I drove out of the pits. I have been trying to reproduce it but with no luck. It only happened the first time I actually joined a server with this patch and after that all seems well :scratchch

cheers for the patch btw, full of nice features :D

mad

[Scawen]

I don't think that's it. I am in 1st with clutch pressed on the grid and I rev the engine. Usually that works fine, no penalties. Some times I do get spectated for doing exactly the same thing. Those times I have got spectated I have been able to be on the grid for while (revving or not).
That packets from previous race sounds like the most reasonable explanation to me.OK, I must point out there are two totally different things :

1) The host making you spectate (if it think you have driven more than 4 metres). This could be caused by delayed position packets from a previous race (or qualifying) - I have a solution for this, marking the packets.

2) If you receive a drive through or time penalty (but do not get forced spectate). This could possibly be engine revving + wind effect - it is worked out on your local machine but uses 3d speed. I have a reasonable solution for this as well using 2d speed. But I don't know yet if we have got the real cause. This would happen in single player as well - if someone can get this in a SPR then I will have some hard evidence to find out with 100% certainty why this is happening. The qualifying version of this is just a simple bug, an oversight.

By the way, the fixes are going to be incompatible again, W10 will be incompatible with W9.

[ebola]

I don't think this is the case. In single player, after a few test runs I managed to guess and time it perfectly so I was in 1st gear as close to the green as possible, but I didn't get a penalty. So, does this mean the multiplayer jump start detection is unreliable due to lag (or other complications), or is it just that the MPR file doesn't accurately portray startline events?

Scawen, can we please get some confirmation on this matter?

Nice start 0.01 secs :)

No person can react that fast in reality so there definitely needs to be some limit set on that.

Keep up the good work

[Gabkicks]

already been mentioned about 30 times within this thread

[Dj-Aeri]

Another little bug.

I don't know that in multiplayer happens, but in single player, if you do a false start in Qualy, the time that you do counts the same as if you do without a false start.

The message of "Drive-Through, false start" appears, but is not neccesary to do.

[D4RK1]

hm.. i think its a good idea to level the performance of the cars in the different classes. But as far as i tried, the FXR is now as fast as the FZR, now uses even less fuel and is still much more stable (4WD). So before, there was the tradeoff between speed and stability when choosing your car.

Now there is only one reason to keep driving FZR and that is less tirewear (for me at least). In races the guys driving FXR just push themselves alongside you and stay there, not having to worry about being thrown off the track. A collision, even a little one is more likely to throw the FZR out than the FXR.

I would propose to put a little less weight on the FZR so that its still faster but not so much to leave the FXR and XRR drivers far behind.

[Scawen]

Good comment. I've now made a special thread to discuss car balancing, perhaps you could post the same text over there.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=393772#post393772

Other people please post there if you have something important to say about car balancing but please don't spam the thread, only post if you have researched it and know what you are talking about. That way we'll keep the post count down and to the point and avoid repeated postings.

Thanks! :)

[ebola]

already been mentioned about 30 times within this thread

I hope that wasnt aimed at me, and from what I can see it is mentioned three times after me and axus brought it up and amp88 did some testing.

[thisnameistaken]

Good comment. I've now made a special thread to discuss car balancing, perhaps you could post the same text over there.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=393772#post393772

Scawen - I didn't want to sully your nice clean new thread with this, but: No plans to balance the LRF class at all? I know it's not as popular as the TBOs and GTRs but the LX6 thrashes the other two in most circumstances. It would be nice to see the other two cars being used more.

Just my 2p.

[Shotglass]

Only drivers have to click ready, not spectators, if I am wrong please test and tell me.

Kind of hard to test this without having a team behind me.
But shouldn´t /clearlist (I think thats the command to clear the list of drivers in the race) help to start the race instantly? All I know is it didn´t.

[felplacerad]

The command is /clear :) But I agree, it does not really help to force a race start, since you will also remove yourself from the list and any chance of hitting "ready" before anyone else joins the grid.

I suspect Franky can second this statement :)

Edit: ah, a temporary solution could be to create a script which executes following commands
/clear
/join
/ready

Edit 2: no, the commands are executed too rapidly, I guess we will have to wait for the pause/sleep/wait command.

Edit 3: Executing two scripts with a (driver induced ;)) delay could work though:

script 1:
/carsmax 0
/clear

script 2:
/carsmax 1
/join
/ready
/carsmax 28

[rediske]

I hope that wasnt aimed at me, and from what I can see it is mentioned three times after me and axus brought it up and amp88 did some testing.

no it wasn't. It was about a post in between that later got deleted. I read that post and the other minute it was gone. It was about a small bug been mentioned too often I guess

[Markz]

Mirrror?

I'm tempted to use a proxy but I've lost trust in the one I've been using recently...

[tristancliffe]

Why can't you access lfs.net?

Anyway, here you are.

[troy]

mirror: http://boost.am/58991/lfs_mp_test_w9.zip.html

because im posting already: love the patch great step forward again for this lovely sim :)
now we just need a disallow shift + s option in an ongoing race and i am happy :razz:

edit: was to slow there

[Markz]

Why can't you access lfs.net?

Anyway, here you are.

Thanks. Really, I don't know. It's only one of the many sites I can't (for some reason, once again) view, like YouTube, F31Club, etc.

[banshee56]

Nice start 0.01 secs :)

No person can react that fast in reality so there definitely needs to be some limit set on that.

Keep up the good work

Since we are at the point where human reaction and prediction is involved in the starts, would it be more realistic to make the lights more random? In drag racing here in the US, when the starting lights go on (from a human starter), the time from yellow to green in constant, but the time from both cars ready to the start sequence is random.

In LFS, we have the three light countdown that is at constant time intervals (red to red to red to green), giving people the opportunity to predict when the green light comes on, giving some people (that time it correctly) an advantage and others a larger disadvantage from lag.

Would it be difficult to change it so that the red light still come on at the same intervals, but they all stay on for some random amount of time (or at least one of a few different set intervals, chosen randomly)?


I have another question regarding patch versions: When this new incompatible patch comes out, can older patches (W) still communicate and log actions/laps/PB's with LFS World?

[Motörhead V8]

i dont know if was already posted here, there are too much posts here, so read every single one is hard

if you join a race when its starting (before the green light, of course) you are forced to spectate

maybe LFS thinks that the "drop on the grid thing" is the same as doing a false start and walking more than 4 meters

sorry for the bad english

[felplacerad]

Would it be difficult to change it so that the red light still come on at the same intervals, but they all stay on for some random amount of time (or at least one of a few different set intervals, chosen randomly)?

You mean something like this?

Start lights time between red and green is changed each race

i dont know if was already posted here, there are too much posts here, so read every single one is hard

That's what the search function is for.

[csimpok]

Would it be difficult to change it so that the red light still come on at the same intervals, but they all stay on for some random amount of time (or at least one of a few different set intervals, chosen randomly)?

I had the same feeling that the time from red to green is the same although I expected it to change. Or even if it changes the difference between the different timings is way too small .

[franky500]

In real life those drivers would not be limping back to the pits at all. Either their car would be towed off track, or they'd be taken to the hospital by helicopter. Right now you can wreck your car quite badly and still limp back to the pits. In the real world this is not an option. Not to mention the fact that many of the people nursing their cars back to the pits ruin others' races by going slowly down the track, often on the racing line. Frankly, I would rather see these people fix their car and get on with it rather than trying to drive 3/4 of a lap with two broken springs and the front tires turned opposite directions.

In addition to the new "no reset" option, we need increased suspension and engine damage. Once that is implemented, realism should take a drastic turn for the better.

If it's a beginner or pick-up race, resetting can be left turned on with the car being repaired. If it's a league or serious race resetting can be turned off and mid-race join can be turned off. We need better damage, but I think "can fix car" and "can't fix car" are enough options.

If someone does a Shift+S and then tries to wreck other racers, they get banned. Nothing about that will change with this new option.

Firstly, there are 48 connections, but not 48 racers. Big difference. Secondly, what's the problem with having to restart from the pits? In the real world you wouldn't get to restart AT ALL. Getting to restart from the pits doesn't seem so bad. If it's not a serious race either leave resetting on or don't sweat starting back from the pits since you lose nothing by not coming in first.

Check out the improvements section for some nice, long discussions about that very topic. ;)

I must agree with Widdowmaker.. not only because hes my team mate but i think he has agood point.

If realism is the problem then shift + S needs to be removed as you say. in real life. your race will be over and not rejoining in such a manner.


as for the /clear command.. it clears the list nicely.. but as said previously people are just way to fast on that join button. a test proved this (for anybody that was there) lol.

there idealy needs to be a way that theres a delay.. possibly one of the ways suggested already could do the trick

[birder]

If realism is the problem then shift + S needs to be removed as you say. in real life. your race will be over and not rejoining in such a manner.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone rolled on the first lap of a 24 hour race or a banger race where cars are auto-repaired. Someone would not be very happy. For ease it would be best to have all 3.

/reset Arcade (Full repair), Track(As patch W) or No (Get out yourself), that way we can decide and everyone will (may) be happy

[franky500]

Can you imagine what would happen if someone rolled on the first lap of a 24 hour race or a banger race where cars are auto-repaired. Someone would not be very happy. For ease it would be best to have all 3.

/reset Arcade (Full repair), Track(As patch W) or No (Get out yourself), that way we can decide and everyone will (may) be happy

that is exactly what i think is needed.

[[d9]]

i think, there is no reason to handicap XRT car on demo servers... because there are no other same class cars available to "balance"...

... and racers have like to be faster not slower, right? so they will be happier with a little faster slower cars than oposite :)

[spankmeyer]

;393939']i think, there is no reason to handicap XRT car on demo servers... because there are no other same class cars available to "balance"...

... and racers have like to be faster not slower, right? so they will be happier with a little faster slower cars than oposite :)

If you want faster cars, buy S2 fella. :D

And Mr. Scawen & Co., I wish to send you the warmest spring greetings and thankyous for a great patch to come.

[Cue-Ball]

I found a little bug. I was racing with XFR and with F12 it did say that I need 1% per lap. I did put in 6% and after doing 5 laps just after crossing the finish line I did have 0.3% fuel (but it still said that I need 1% per lap).Personally, I think we need to be shown fuel in pounds or gallons, not percentages. And we should only be shown how much fuel is in the tank, not how much is being used per lap. That is up to the driver/team to determine. It should work like it does in real life:

Put in X lbs/gal of fuel.
Drive Y number of laps.
Pit and see how many lbs/gal of fuel are left.
Y laps / X lbs/gal of fuel = Z lbs/gal of fuel needed per lap.

[tristancliffe]

Can you imagine what would happen if someone rolled on the first lap of a 24 hour raceThey should retire like someone in real life who forgets races are more than one lap
or a banger race where cars are auto-repaired.I've not been the biggest fan of banger racing in real life, but I was under the impression that they couldn't reset either.

And all the 'best' LFS banger racing servers say 'No Resetting' in the rules. Now that can be enforced.

Name one situation in a car simulation where resetting is required that might be realistic, other than rallying where spectators can right the car on some occasions. Hopefully that part will come when/if LFS has rallying. In RallyCross I doubt spectators are allowed to come onto the track to assist, so LFS remains correct for what it simulates.

Quite frankly I think this is one of the best things ever in LFS' history, and it will change how people drive (though it might be chaos for a few days/weeks whilst people get used to the idea of not making stupid moves or over driving thinking that reset might save them.

[Dutch-ALfa]

:thumb: nice changes (now i gotta see them with my own eyes :p)

to bad the bouncing away from barriers isnt helped yet

[Shotglass]

maybe LFS thinks that the "drop on the grid thing" is the same as doing a false start and walking more than 4 meters

I´ve tried that extensively with reving the engine and rapidly moving the wheel to make the car jump around a little I´ve also tried shift+r on steep inclines repeatedly to see if it´s got anything to do with it. Result was I couldn´t replicate the issue that way. However it was done in SP and on my own dedi (0 lag) so I cant be 100% sure that it might not me an issue with lots of lag.

as for the /clear command.. it clears the list nicely.. but as said previously people are just way to fast on that join button. a test proved this (for anybody that was there) lol.

But aren´t the guys who click "join race" after the clear very likely also those who will click "ok", i.e. the ones who aren´t AFK.

[Linsen]

Personally, I think we need to be shown fuel in pounds or gallons, not percentages...
Make that liters or kg and you have a point ;) (which has been suggested before, actually and does not really belong in this thread, either).

While I'm posting already, I might as well say a very big thank you for this great patch, which not only contains more new features than what I would have expected, it also has come a lot earlier than I would have thought. I'm impressed :).

And maybe the car-resetting discussion should be moved to it's own spin-off as well ... ?

Edit: and this post belongs in the clean-up, of course.

[[TDRT] Spøgelset]

For ease it would be best to have all 3:
/reset Arcade (Full repair), Track(As patch W) or No (Get out yourself), that way we can decide and everyone will (may) be happy

Good point! :thumb:
As for the demo add two more please: /reset autokick /reset autoban :scratchch

[ZolArT]

Could not find connection 1's client info - what this? This wrong is whan i try kick or ban in connection list (by admin). Also 3's and 2's

[franky500]

But aren´t the guys who click "join race" after the clear very likely also those who will click "ok", i.e. the ones who aren´t AFK.

good point after the clear i must admit it did get started farely quickly. so i guess it works in some ways.

[deggis]

In addition to the new "no reset" option, we need increased suspension and engine damage. Once that is implemented, realism should take a drastic turn for the better.
Making suspension damage... eh let's say something like 200% :D more sensitive would very easy to do (in the next incomp. physics patch). I mean it doesn't need anything new to model, simply making it more sensitive to damage. At least that would stop the ridiculous ramming over the curbs. Kind of a temporary fix until damage modelling gets more complicated.

[Motörhead V8]

I´ve tried that extensively with reving the engine and rapidly moving the wheel to make the car jump around a little I´ve also tried shift+r on steep inclines repeatedly to see if it´s got anything to do with it. Result was I couldn´t replicate the issue that way. However it was done in SP and on my own dedi (0 lag) so I cant be 100% sure that it might not me an issue with lots of lag.


well, that happen on a server that has a little lag in it, i can't remember the name, but is think i was on "Dead Men Racing" running TBO@AS national

many people joined the race before it start, and all of them got "spectate"

if that happen again i'll try to save a MPR

[GFresh]

No, I'm saying it could be the reason for the false false starts.

Ok, my bad :)

[11SuLLy11]

hi guys,will this patch be an auto update soon??

[FOGlegsy]

hi guys,will this patch be an auto update soon??
When the bugs are worked out im sure it will be:thumb: , remember its a test patch in its current state

[11SuLLy11]

ok thanks mate :thumb:

[deggis]

Small suggestion:

Now that LFS is finally moving to the more realistic way regarding the starts, why the handbrake is still "automatic"? There's a good reason for clutch being still automatic but I don't see reason for this.

Would be better if it was still automatically toggled on the start like it is now but before you could go anywhere you'd need to press once the handbrake button to untoggle it manually. Same thing when the car is completely stopped & handbrake is toggled... you'd again need to manually untoggle it.

And please NO "auto handbrake on/off" options for this! If this is some kind of problem for keyboard users.. well truthfully who really cares.

edit

[zurdospeed]

Hi, really great job with this test patch :thumb:

BUT ;) here are a few SPRs where you can see that if you don´t get more than 2km/h in the start line, you can advance a few metres before the green light, and no penalty is given. I tried out this only Offline and with only 5 cars, but in all of them i could advance without being detected :D

[Scawen]

Would it be difficult to change it so that the red light still come on at the same intervals, but they all stay on for some random amount of time (or at least one of a few different set intervals, chosen randomly)?The delay between the last red and the green is randomised, it is not the same each time (as stated in the change log).

Small suggestion:

Now that LFS is finally moving to the more realistic way regarding the starts, why the handbrake is still "automatic"? There's a good reason for clutch being still automatic but I don't see reason for this.

Would be better if it was still automatically toggled on the start like it is now but before you could go anywhere you'd need to press once the handbrake button to untoggle it manually. Same thing when the car is completely stopped & handbrake is toggled... you'd again need to manually untoggle it.

And please NO "auto handbrake on/off" options for this! If this is some kind of problem for keyboard users.. well truthfully who really cares.

editHmm, you can't be serious, do you know how many people actually have an axis handbrake? You must be one of the lucky few. Clutch and shifter has just become mainstream because of the G25 but logitech didn't throw an axis handbrake into the bundle - maybe it something for the future. I don't even know where to buy one, I have never seen one! :D Maybe you should go into business manufacturing them? It really doesn't make any difference, the automatic handbrake is just something that makes blackwood starts possible, instead of total mayhem. :)

[mrbogeyman]

Scawen, I think you misunderstood that slightly.

What I think deggis is trying to say is that the handbrake should not automagically go off when you select first on the grid.

ATM starts go like this:
Handbrake automatically on.
Rev engine
Engage 1st & GO! (at this point the handbrake goes off automagically)

I think Deggis means:
Handbrake automatically on.
Rev engine
Engage 1st, drop handbrake and GO!

So it isn't necessarily an axis handbrake, but merely toggling it off with a button at the start. Just like setting off in a car in real life.

[R3DMAN]

One thing i have noticed in the new patch is when you enter Shift+U it runs really slow, 2 - 5 fps, i have 2 copies of lfs on my machines V8 and W9.

V8 - Shift+U works lovley and smooth with 9 players on
W9 - Shift+U was nasty, but it did have a full server, but everything else ran fine, very smooth over 80fps everywere.. it was only in shift+u it ran choppy.

[Scawen]

Scawen, I think you misunderstood that slightly.

I was just taking the piss a little really for fun. :) My real point was it's pointless because on most tracks you don't need it. It would really just put everyone off the demo, because at Blackwood you need that handbrake. It would just be too complicated without the auto handbrake and I don't see any need to remove it, not at this stage anyway, it wouldn't help with fun in any way and would be just going too far to realism. It would be a bit like saying you should have to change your own spark plugs with a virtual spanner controlled by the mouse, and and South City should be a full city simulation where you have to work in South City Bank or MacDowell's hamburgers to earn enough credits to buy your racing car, that kind of thing. Somewhere reality must stop to make a sim that is usable and enjoyable.

[PeteRichardson]

I think a good idea for a small addon for the start would be a choice of how the lights came on (set in the options menu). So instead of the countdown, you could have:

All red > All Green
or
All red > Out

Maybe I'm being a bit of a pedant about this, but it adds a bit of flavour now that we have the clutch/false start. To have the lights come on and then change to green in less than 3 seconds would be a real reaction tester, rather than waiting for them all to come on and change.

I've got to say that I'm using the drag strip more than ever now to practice getting away promptly without wheelspin. Thank you to the developers.

[Hyperactive]

I was just taking the piss a little really for fun. :) My real point was it's pointless because on most tracks you don't need it. It would really just put everyone off the demo, because at Blackwood you need that handbrake. It would just be too complicated without the auto handbrake and I don't see any need to remove it, not at this stage anyway, it wouldn't help with fun in any way and would be just going too far to realism.
Imho, it is a small part of realism that you need to keep the car steady when you trying to get the car moving from standstill on up/downhill. There is the possibility that the starting handbrake could be toggleable on/off. With off you would have to manually apply brakes to prevent the car movement. Or just a simple feature that pressing the handbrake again when it is already applied would turn it off? Imho, complicated is quite an overstatement for such a simple and logical feature :)

Btw. is there a performance difference in starts whether the handbrake is on or off? It is posible to move the car just a bit so that the handbrake isn't ON anymore ;). This small difference (if there is one) could be a kind of small reward for using the realistic brakes on starts :)

EDIT: defenately makes a difference if you could stall the engine

It would be a bit like saying you should have to change your own spark plugs with a virtual spanner controlled by the mouse, and and South City should be a full city simulation where you have to work in South City Bank or MacDowell's hamburgers to earn enough credits to buy your racing car, that kind of thing. Somewhere reality must stop to make a sim that is usable and enjoyable.
Ever been to the CLC city driving servers? Give us pedestrians! :D :schwitz:

[james12s]

I was just taking the piss a little really for fun. :) My real point was it's pointless because on most tracks you don't need it. It would really just put everyone off the demo, because at Blackwood you need that handbrake. It would just be too complicated without the auto handbrake and I don't see any need to remove it, not at this stage anyway, it wouldn't help with fun in any way and would be just going too far to realism. It would be a bit like saying you should have to change your own spark plugs with a virtual spanner controlled by the mouse, and and South City should be a full city simulation where you have to work in South City Bank or MacDowell's hamburgers to earn enough credits to buy your racing car, that kind of thing. Somewhere reality must stop to make a sim that is usable and enjoyable.
well as for the spanners, there is a game version of the monster garage tv show and you have wrenches, welders, griders etc all controlled by the mouse

[[TDRT] Spøgelset]

As an admin it´s impossible to start a kick-/banvote with mouse. Guests are able to. Commands /kick XXXX /ban XXXX 0 works fine as an admin. Double-checked with another Demoserver.

Bye,
(W9 -DEMO) DanishRacingProServer :bewarespa

[deggis]

handbrake should not automagically go off when you select first on the grid.
It doesn't actually go off when selecting 1st gear... you need to apply some throttle also, which makes it even stranger.

Scawen:

I think you still didn't understand...? I do not want to remove the automatically toggled handbrake at the starts - my suggestion was about that you would have to untoggle it manually by pressing the handbrake button on the wheel or keyboard. You don't need home-made axis handbrakes for that purpose.

If you stop the car completely and press handbrake, it goes to toggled mode automatically which is nice. Then you put in 1st gear and apply some throttle and the handbrake goes off automatically... that part just doesn't make any sense.

My real point was it's pointless because on most tracks you don't need it. It would really just put everyone off the demo, because at Blackwood you need that handbrake.
I don't know did you say this because you didn't understand what I meant in the first place or what... but how would that put off? In flight sims you need to 100 things before you can even think about taking off. If untoggling a handbrake is too much in a driving sim for most of the players, I wonder will we ever get the to next level in realism in general. :)

[Simpson]

Hello
I think "drive trough pits" instead of "30s" penalty when falstart would be better (if we want to make game more realistic) ;)
30s would be good on 1 lap race.

[thisnameistaken]

I have to say I agree with Deggis - a sensible start sequence shouldn't really be a barrier to newbies.

[Widdowmaker]

Hello
I think "drive trough pits" instead of "30s" penalty when falstart would be better (if we want to make game more realistic) ;)
30s would be good on 1 lap race.

+1

This is a very sensible suggestion :thumb: :thumb:

[Boris Lozac]

Yep i agree completely, it would make more sense and be more realistic if you had to manually "put down" the handbrake. This a serious racing simulator after all, and every bit of realism that could be implemented is good, whil maintaining that small bit of "arcade" because of the 2 pedal and no "H" shifter hardwers that most people use..

[banshee56]

The delay between the last red and the green is randomised, it is not the same each time (as stated in the change log).

Hmm...I guess I didn't see that in the change log. Sorry. Can you comment on what the variation of start times is? I ask because we had several race last night and it seemed as if the time between the last red and green was very similar. Perhaps a system that would give you a random 1,2,3,4, or 5 seconds between red and green lights instead of what is maybe tenths different?

EDIT: I see the change log line now...I guess I associated that with the difference in time between appearing on the grid and the start of the light sequence that was done a while back for lag reasons. Sorry for that! :shrug:

[Widdowmaker]

Name one situation in a car simulation where resetting is required that might be realistic, other than rallying where spectators can right the car on some occasions.



ALMS - The North American 12 hour Endurance series - They dont right the car - but the marshalls will push a car out of the gravel - or if stuck in a verge - and allow the cars to return to pits or continue racing, without penalty.

Le Man - Same Scenario

Thats 2!

[psy00]

Somewhere reality must stop to make a sim that is usable and enjoyable.

I second that :)

[Chaos]

Hello
I think "drive trough pits" instead of "30s" penalty when falstart would be better (if we want to make game more realistic) ;)
30s would be good on 1 lap race.
afaik already there... you just need a race with more than 3 laps...

[Simpson]

afaik already there... you just need a race with more than 3 laps...
Yeap, sorry for confusion. Didn't notice it.
3 laps or less -> 30s
4 laps or more -> drive trough pits

[Blackout]

I think I agree with the handbrake suggestion.

Everyone should start with the handbrake on, preventing rolling down that could happen because lag and such and the fact that you just appear to the grid.

Then you would hold down the handbrake button and once it gets released you would be off.

That would be safe and logical I think.


But I can understand Scawen's opinion that starting should be simple, but for the more realistic feeling I think many here would rather have the more complicated way. I'm sure that the full potential of the more complicated starting would show its full potential once the clutch and engine models are complete. It could cause some havoc though, so...dunno about that fun side then anymore.

[Hallen]

If you want to read more about everything that has been discussed before on resets, search in the improvement suggestions forum.
Here is my contribution and a good thread on the topic
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=156616#post156616

Second item:

I kept getting many Yellow Flag warnings when racing offline with the 15 AI cars. The cars were not off track nor spinning. It was very odd. Every few seconds I would get a yellow flag warning, or multiple ones that lasted for a number of seconds, yet like I said before, no AI car actually crashed. Could it be that just small body contact like the AI's seem to incessantly do could cause this?

I don't have the replay, but I think it will be easy to duplicate if necessary.

[AndroidXP]

Well, yellow flag means "caution, obstacle ahead". No wonder you get them all the time when the AI is on the track :D

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Somewhere reality must stop to make a sim that is usable and enjoyable.

I would rather have a sim that's completely and utterly unusable and extremely unenjoyable! :D

With respect to the patch - beautiful work Scawen.

- I agree that much greater variation between the last red light and the green light would be better.

- It's now possible to do a burnout in place before the light turns green at the dragstrip (or anywhere), but pushing the car foward a little bit doesn't give a penalty. I think the tolerance is too great. ... (side note: The drag strip could be really popular if the car started back in the waterbox (obviously even sans water at this point), and was required to pull up to the lights (so you could do a proper burnout). On screen indicators would simply indicate when you're in postion, and the tree sequence would start when both cars are in position).

- Would having to use your brakes manually on start be an idea to think about? Having the grid frozen for 3 seconds with a message indicating that the race will begin, so get your ass ready (e.g., apply the brake and do what you need to do) etc. would perhaps work instead of the handbrake? Just a thought, but maybe it is better the way it is. It would feel better to have to use the brakes though, IMO.

[matze54564]

If you stop the car completely and press handbrake, it goes to toggled mode automatically which is nice. Then you put in 1st gear and apply some throttle and the handbrake goes off automatically... that part just doesn't make any sense.
+1

And i said it in an other thread before, i need to toggle my throttle, because my throttle-finger hurt like hell in a oval-server.

Just for CLC:
It would be nice to toggle the throttle in 50% or 80 % and so far, or a little Cruise control will be very nice. Not like the pit-limiter, it must be able to setup the speed and the car must brake automatically if it go to fast down the hill. That will be nice for cruising-servers. Furthermore is needed to toggle the police- and music-horn and the lights.

Something about mouse steering (warning, off topic):
If you use the mouse for steering, and wont type a message, the steering wheel go in straight position. I see no sense in this feature, because so is it impossible to type while driving with mouse-steering. Steering should be frozen in last position while typing, or if it possible just kept enabled. If you with mouse steering enable the connection list, the steering should be frozen (not straight and not enabled). Then is it possible to click fast for kick/ban/send setup/playername while driving without ramming the right side wall. For the last suggestion must be made another connection list view beside the existing view, to watch it before the steering go frozen. Because it bring nothing when steering go frozen and i must just search a player-name in connection list , this need to much time and i go then for ramming the left side wall. I guess, i should put this text in the suggestions-forum because its off topic.

[Ricou]

Somewhere reality must stop to make a sim that is usable and enjoyable.

I have to say that I totally agree with Scawen here. To have to manually release handbrake would complicate things a bit, making LFS even more inaccessible to newbies.

Imo, manual handbrake is like manual clutch: it's fun only if you have the right hardware, whether it is a clutch pedal or an analog handbrake.
Where is the realism in releasing the handbrake with a button ? :shrug:

[evilgeek]

WARNING: Noob question
what is Added preload setting to clutch pack differentials? :D

my understanding is that preload is the amount of friction between the two power paths through the differential under zero torque. you can think of it as a "minimum lock" whereas the power and coast settings are "maximum lock" values.

as you load up the diff (by accelerating out of a corner, or decelerating into a corner) the amount of friction will build up from the preload amount until it reaches the maximum locking factor. the higher the preload, the faster the locking comes on. if set too low, it will act like an open diff and allow considerable slip to occur before it locks up. if set too high, it will act more like a fully locked diff, and wont slip enough, causing understeer. set just right, you will get a smooth transition between coast/unloaded/power conditions.

[Cue-Ball]

I think a good idea for a small addon for the start would be a choice of how the lights came on (set in the options menu). So instead of the countdown, you could have:

All red > All Green
or
All red > Out
I think this is quite a good idea. Though, I don't think it really even needs to be an option. Just make this the default behavior:

1) All lights off (get ready to race)
2) All red lights on (race will start in 3-7 seconds)
3) Red lights off, green lights on (go!)

This will prevent people trying to anticipate the lights, and will also be quite obvious that the race is about to start (once the red lights turn on). I believe this is how most race series do it in real life.

[Cue-Ball]

I have to say that I totally agree with Scawen here. To have to manually release handbrake would complicate things a bit, making LFS even more inaccessible to newbies.It wouldn't be inaccessible at all. Drivers would simply have to use the brake on the starting line, just like drivers in real life have to.

Where is the realism in releasing the handbrake with a button ? :shrug:Where's the realism of having an automatic handbrake? Where's the realism of dropping the car into first gear while at redline?

I personally feel that auto-handbrake needs to be turned off completely. If you don't want your car to roll on the start line, use your brakes. That's what they're for. If you really want to use the handbrake, you can easily map it to a button or key.

[Ger Roady]

IIt would be a bit like saying you should have to change your own spark plugs with a virtual spanner controlled by the mouse, and and South City should be a full city simulation where you have to work in South City Bank or MacDowell's hamburgers to earn enough credits to buy your racing car, that kind of thing. .
Brilliant idea. Work on it ,please :thumb: :D

[ZolArT]

Could not find connection 1's client info - what this? This warning is whan i try kick or ban in connection list (by admin). Also 3's and 2's

Spøgelset;394241']As an admin it´s impossible to start a kick-/banvote with mouse. Guests are able to. Commands /kick XXXX /ban XXXX 0 works fine as an admin. Double-checked with another Demoserver.

Bye,
(W9 -DEMO) DanishRacingProServer :bewarespa

The Alike problem?

[Chris P]

Please, please, please remove that handbrake in-gear feature. What's the point in having it?

Edit: Just read above this post. The suggestion of having it as a toggle would be better, but I still feel the way it was suited most people.

Other than that, keep up the good work! :thumb:

Also, Scawen, you say the realism has to stop somewhere... Why? Attention to detail is so important if you really want to make a driving simulator, imho. I'll still love the game no matter what you do to it. ;)

[matze54564]

Please, please, please remove that handbrake in-gear feature. What's the point in having it?
I don´t understand why u must say 3 times please because of nothing. The handbrake with a gear in changes absolutely nothing for race starts. It makes just more easy to parking in your CLC-mod. It is just a step in the right direction. And the next step is the remove of the automatically release the handbrake toggle. If this made, every player must press the handbrake button to release the handbrake and start the car. And this will be fine realistic and not impossible to handle with all used steering-items.

[deggis]

Where is the realism in releasing the handbrake with a button ? :shrug:
It's at least tiny little step closer to realism. LFS is a sim so it tries to go as far as possible in realism. No? Pressing one button can't be too much pain in the ass.

And what's this talk about being too unfriendly for newbies? If something like this puts off new players, don't you think maybe they're playing wrong game in the first place? LFS has always been hardcore what comes to tyre physics etc but in certain areas it has very much arcade-like features, LFS being still in alpha level can't be the explanation for everything.

I guess the devs has a goal to make LFS the most realistic sim ever. Automatic handbrake release shouldn't be part of that plan because it isn't realistic and it could be easily made more realistic without requiring too much regarding controllers (unlike manual clutch would at this point). This quite weird response from Scawen (depends though did he understand what I meant) made me think about what kind of general goals devs has regarding realism in S3.

When nKp came out, forums where full of angry people asking "why do I need to start the car". I wonder why they ask about it in the first place.

edit

[XtremePsionic]

Some suggestions after racing with my fellow GURUs with the W9 patch. I'm very sorry if these had been suggested in this thread before, I really don't have time to go through 300+ posts to find out. Please ignore it if they've been mentioned :thumb:

1. Show each racer's weight penalties (if any) on the final race result chart
2. Have weight penalties automatically applied by server settings. (so you don't have to keep telling people how much to add if you finish at what positions)

We've absolutely loving the new weight penalty system, it makes our club racing much more exciting and enjoyable! Thanks Scawen!

[robt]

back to BUGS rather than improvements, a few pages ago it was mentioned that half the grid or more were being sent to spectate at the start, i have a few replays.........hope this helps.

[axus]

I remember that many people were requesting forced cockpit view as a serverside option time and time again prior to the patch... any chance of this being included? :)

[al heeley]

I guess the devs has a goal to make LFS the most realistic sim ever. Automatic handbrake release shouldn't be part of that plan because it isn't realistic and it could be easily made more realistic without requiring too much regarding controllers ...
I recently got the new Passat with the auto-hold button, no manual handbrake at all, auto-release as the clutch bites. That's a pretty realistic step taken by VW to get closer to the real feeling of driving a simulator.
See, Scawen is so way ahead of you and the industry:tilt:

[Electrik Kar]

Proper familiarity with the handbrake should be covered in LFS basic training. It shouldn't be that confusing, it's really just one more button. People would get it sorted fairly quickly I imagine. And the option suggestion seems best to me- that follows the logic of many of the driving functions so far. If you can choose to sit in the left or right side of the car, you should be able to choose whether or not your handbrake's controlled by you.

[ATC Quicksilver]

Something I noticed which may be more of an improvement suggestion really...on the F12 display you can still only change the fuel by 5% a time between the 5%-100% range, I know when your driving its hard to go up each percent so why not keep the 5% a time but when you want to go lower than 5% it puts it to 1%. Thats just becase I had it on 1% then mid race put it up by mistake :D

[shadow2kx]

Talking about realisim in lfs is quiet important, no, it's the most important. After all, it's the main interest of lfs. But, come on, let's get back to the real deal of this patch and let's forget the handbrake. I think that if Scawen decided to remove the handbrake support of lfs for any kind of raisons it won't hurt me so much. I don't use handbrake :)

We are here to talk about racing, not talking about how realistic should be the parking break.

[Hyperactive]

I remember that many people were requesting forced cockpit view as a serverside option time and time again prior to the patch... any chance of this being included? :)

+10000
Although imho another way of implementing it would be to limit the free view camera movements so that it would impossible to move the "camera" out from the car :)

And to the starts with handbrake. Imho, just an option to manually disable the handbrake would be fine. Here's one way of giving the the user 2 options to choose from:
Arcade
The way it is done now. Just maybe add a tiny bit of delay to the way the handbrake comes off, making it a bit more gradual, like linearly decreasing off in 0.3 seconds. As it is a driving aid, there should be a (small) penalty for using it and the penalty would give a small reward to those who do it the right way :)
Realistic:
As a new races is started, the handbrake is on but gets disabled automatically as you touch any controls.

The handbrake needs to be on in the very beginning of the start (I guess) because sometimes there is lag when the restart is done and there is small delay between the end of last race and the moment when you are sitting in the grid in next race (lag at your own end). You don't want the car wonder around when you are not yet in control :)

Imho, worth a discussion but nothing really very important. But while at it... ;)

[psy00]

Also, Scawen, you say the realism has to stop somewhere... Why? Attention to detail is so important if you really want to make a driving simulator, imho.

relax guys :) it isn't a plane simulator, one must jump and be ready to go with the car not spend minutes to press buttons ,sometimes you just want to race and you are bored/tired to install even the wheel on the table :D ofcourse everything is important and i'd like to be included as options , the real cars are made with ergonomics that suits them and are easy to use by the drivers ,same apply and for the virtual lfs drivers the sim must suit and the computer users -we aren't inside a car- , whatever buttons you press it isn't real in front of the computer unless you have the proper hardware whice isn't available to the most people and can confuse them , can't you realize that? i think all will be done in time , physics comes first and then the buttons :P

bye.

ps. i just wanted to say that realism doesn't have to hurt us to understand that it is there and i'm not talking about the hardbrake that's a minor issue :)

[Cue-Ball]

We are here to talk about racing, not talking about how realistic should be the parking break.The problem is that the handbrake directly affects the racing. We've now got jump starts and the handbrake is, frankly, ruining the realism and immersion of it, not to mention that it gives people using autoclutch one more advantage, on top of what they already had.

Let's not forget also that eventually LFS will have to remove the autoclutch and implement stalling. Once that happens, the handbrake will have to be removed anyway. Might as well do it now since it's having a negative effect on starts.

[Scawen]

All right, time to close the thread now.

Thanks for all the reports but this has now become an improvement suggestions thread, too much talk now about a handbrake idea that will add nothing to LFS but cause total carnage at every start on Blackwood. I've already dismissed this idea and we have had dozens more posts about it.

That's not what it is supposed to be, we have a sub-forum for improvement suggestions. So I'll close this thread and forum now, until W10.

Thanks everyone for the reports, I'll get on the case with sorting out the W9 issues.

[Scawen]

Just notifying you of a new Patch W10 :

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=23009