Track guides, worth spending time on?

[danowat]

A while ago, I wrote this for the ESL > http://www.esl.eu/uk/lfs/news/22170/ (http://www.esl.eu/uk/lfs/news/22170/)

Lately, I have been toying with the idea of doing some more, is it something that would be needed in the community?, would it be worth spending time on?, would anyone find any use out of them?.

I would imagine the "stalwarts" of the LFS world don't need anything like them, but for the newer user, maybe they have some use?.

Dan,

[JJ72]

I would like to see one, when put on a website would add quite some realism and professionism to newcomers when introducing the sim.

[danowat]

Something along the lines of the one I did for ESL?, or something different?

[JJ72]

If you could, It will be great if it's something interactive, a track map with hotspots on every corner, when your cursor overlays it it shows the text and a pic. Again would be great for website usage.

writing style-wise I think it's quite good already.

[danowat]

Ok, food for thought, I would need some kind of web/flash guru to help out for that.......

[Gunn]

I think it would be very valuable and have thought so for quite some time. If I had enough time to do it myself I would have by now. Go for it mate.

[danowat]

Right, I'll do them for some more tracks, I will have to think about hosting etc.........

[Not Sure]

moar!

[St4Lk3R]

Right, I'll do them for some more tracks, I will have to think about hosting etc.........

I think the LFSManual would be a good place :thumb:.

Great project by the way :nod:

[kurent]

I would be willing to write one for BL1.

[danowat]

I can easily provide them as PDF's as per this........

[dcm_wc]

i will say Yes .Pls.Track Drift Guide.

[danowat]

Drift?, hmm......I can't, and generally won't drift, so I won't be doing anything that resembles a drift guide, sorry.

[duke_toaster]

LFSManual would be a great place for it :)

[Becky Rose]

I would be happy to host a track guide section on the STCC site, I think the hotspot thing shouldn't be too hard either.

[danowat]

I would be happy to host a track guide section on the STCC site, I think the hotspot thing shouldn't be too hard either.

Sounds good, I can do the words/pictures and someone can host and do the "hotspot" thingy?

[danowat]

Right, this is going to happen, we (Triple Seven Racing) will host track guides for all track combinations :).

Just need to knuckle down and write the buggers ;)

[felplacerad]

May I suggest using the Wiki?

[Becky Rose]

Sounds good, I can do the words/pictures and someone can host and do the "hotspot" thingy?
Yup, that can be done in CSS I think, so it remains truly portable and wont need a plugin.

[Linsen]

Right, this is going to happen, we (Triple Seven Racing) will host track guides for all track combinations :).

Just need to knuckle down and write the buggers ;)
Great project! I can relate to pretty much everything you write about Fe green (even the "corner of hate" is the exact same for me :)).

[faster111]

Good idea yes it would help.

[Gentlefoot]

So will it be a track guide general or a track guide for each car/class of car?

That's a hell of a lot of work?

[danowat]

It's going to have to be general, I have found that braking points and lines are generally the same for the majority of cars anyway.

[Gentlefoot]

It's going to have to be general, I have found that braking points and lines are generally the same for the majority of cars anyway.

Not sure I agree with that mate. I find the braking points in say the FO8 are much earlier than in the FOX. Same with the LX6 and LX4. And in FWD road tyred cars you have to turn in much earlier than say an XRR.

Not that this means the guides won't be useful for beginners but I believe advanced track guides would need to be combo specific.

Ofcourse you can save time by having one guide referred to in another. For example the final chicane at Aston National is the same as the final chicane for Aston Historic.

hmm - how many combos are there? - 19 cars and 48 tracks - only 912 track guides to write :) Do one a day and you can be finished in 3 years.

[ajp71]

I'd be very interested in a guide showing the track and the best line, as well as a detailed analysis of the corner and a generalised best way to attack it it most cars. Braking/power down points are a personal thing anyway there's no real point in being told them IMO.

hmm - how many combos are there? - 19 cars and 48 tracks - only 912 track guides to write :) Do one a day and you can be finished in 3 years.

Take each corner and write a guide for it (some will obviously be different because of the different entry speed) but most combos could be strung together with a script I think.

[Storm_Cloud]

Not sure I agree with that mate. I find the braking points in say the FO8 are much earlier than in the FOX. Same with the LX6 and LX4. And in FWD road tyred cars you have to turn in much earlier than say an XRR.

Not that this means the guides won't be useful for beginners but I believe advanced track guides would need to be combo specific.

Ofcourse you can save time by having one guide referred to in another. For example the final chicane at Aston National is the same as the final chicane for Aston Historic.

hmm - how many combos are there? - 19 cars and 48 tracks - only 912 track guides to write :) Do one a day and you can be finished in 3 years.

Gentlefoot is right I think.

If this is going to be a truly comprehensive guide then it would need to be car specific. Perhaps you should accept and review guides from the community at large or alternatively assign each car a couple of gurus who can write guides for all tracks.

[danowat]

He is right, to a degree, but we need to be realistic about this, with over 900 combos, it would be an impossible task to organise.

[Gentlefoot]

I think it'll work well as long as they are beginners guides. I think to write guides to get people within 1.5 seconds of WR they have to be car specific. I've been thinking about writing content like this myself along with a setup for each guide I write. Obviously it will be a long process and I don't expect to cover every combo.

I also want to use AFS and F1PerfView with this. It will all go on my gentlefoot.com website eventually.

[duke_toaster]

Ofcourse you can save time by having one guide referred to in another. For example the final chicane at Aston National is the same as the final chicane for Aston Historic.

hmm - how many combos are there? - 19 cars and 48 tracks - only 912 track guides to write :) Do one a day and you can be finished in 3 years.

If we got one person to adopt one car :scratchch

I REALLY suggest adding them to the wiki, ideally it would become an LFS One-stop shop for info, tutorials and stuff...

[danowat]

Yeah, nothing more than beginners guides, I am not quick enough to do expert guides ;)

[faster111]

Are you going do it then?

[ColeusRattus]

I don't think that car specific guides are neccessary. In fact, every driver drives differently and more importantly uses his own setup, so breaking points and cornering speeds can vary quite largely even when using the same cars.

I am not half the experienced LfS Racer i'd like to be, so I basically drive every corner in the same gear, regardless of the car. So instead of the speed, perhaps it would be feasable to say in which gear a corner is taken?

[Gentlefoot]

Yeah, nothing more than beginners guides, I am not quick enough to do expert guides ;)

Leave it out mate - ofcourse you are. You're faster than me but I still believe I could write these guides. I don't think you have to be able to set WRs to be able to write this kind of guide.

[chunkyracer]

Don´t know if anyone of you saw this, but I think that it would be great to have something similar for LFS...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkFLzwRGNHc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcGB_SnXaAg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YnbsxhjnE8

Of course this would mean a lot of work and surely not a job for one person only.

[AndRand]

dan, but you surely can :smileypul provide such specific info like (regarding FE Green) - cut T2 up to tyres, start turn T4 (left-right-left chicane btw) at rumble strips and so on.

[Gentlefoot]

I am not half the experienced LfS Racer i'd like to be, so I basically drive every corner in the same gear, regardless of the car. So instead of the speed, perhaps it would be feasable to say in which gear a corner is taken?

The gear the corner will be driven in will be determined by the set. I think it is important that along with these track guides are the sets used.

If I create a guide it'll be for a specific combo. It'll get you to around 1.5 - 2 seconds off WR pace because that's as fast as I get generally. It will include replays and AFS output of my line and comparisons with the WR. A set will be available so people can emulate mine or the WR lines.

[duke_toaster]

If we put them on the wiki, I'll transcribe the [tsr.] video track guides for FOX at Kyoto National normal and BF1 at Blackwood normal.

[Gentlefoot]

If we put them on the wiki, I'll transcribe the [tsr.] video track guides for FOX at Kyoto National normal and BF1 at Blackwood normal.


I don't think I will be able to put my stuff in the wiki unfortunately. I plan to run it off my website with some AVIs as well as SPRs so people who don't have LFS can see what it's all about. It may help draw more people into the game.

[duke_toaster]

I don't think I will be able to put my stuff in the wiki unfortunately. I plan to run it off my website with some AVIs as well as SPRs so people who don't have LFS can see what it's all about. It may help draw more people into the game.

Fair enough :)

[ajp71]

I REALLY suggest adding them to the wiki, ideally it would become an LFS One-stop shop for info, tutorials and stuff...

I don't feel the LFS wiki is terribly helpful for anybody other than people who have yet to try LFS, TBH the forum and other sites are far more useful and consistent.

[jtr99]

Dan, I enjoyed your FE Green guide a lot. If you're prepared to write more of them, that can only be a good thing.

[evilgeek]

imho, they wont help noobs, because noobs will be too busy learning the controls and general driving techniques to worry about the nuances of the tracks. honestly, do you really want noobs trying to optimize their braking points when they haven't learned to use their mirrors yet?

i don't think they wont help experienced drivers either, unless they are car specific, which would be a massive amount of work. even then, it there could be setup specific differences. for example, some people setup their FXR's as true 4wd, safe to mash the throttle well before the apex, others with a more rwd bias requiring more throttle control, etc, etc.

they might be useful for marketing, or simple nerd factor for people who would rather read about driving than actually spend time driving. but would that make them useful? :shrug:

sorry if i sound negative, but i just don't see how there would be much real value, other than for fanboys.

[srdsprinter]

Danowat - very nice idea, +good start with fe green.

My thoughts:

play around with camera angles to give best view of turns.

+ possibly imposing "racing line" on pictures.

careful with grammar. Hit curbs 'too' hard.

Love the idea, and nice work!

[ajp71]

sorry if i sound negative, but i just don't see how there would be much real value, other than for fanboys.

I think they'd have a huge value, I first started reading track guides when I needed to learn the 'ring in N2003 and it really helped, the fact I was reading a guide for an E46 M3 didn't make it useless for learning to drive the 'ring in a Group C Sauber. Simply having a section of map with the correct line and notes marked on it soon sorts out where the apexes are, whether it tightens/opens where the bumps are etc. All this may seem obvious but it saves hours finding it out the hard way. Whatever format they take though it would be nice if they were printable, as having it printed makes good reading material for the loo ;)

[JTbo]

I would think that you could add more tips about overtaking, like this is not place to overtake or here you can overtake relative safely, actually could go bit more into overtaking details also as that could help a lot of newcomers to find how to overtake.

Specially at South City I see lot of completely wrong timing of overtaking attempts and generally people try to overtake on places where that is just plain impossible and specially at speeds they are trying to enter to corners.

So it would be great if it would be covered at least a bit.

[srdsprinter]

Lots of work i know, but I'm a fan of video track guides as well.

I believe it is SimHQ or something similar which did some pretty good video lap guides (albeit of Rfactor).

[Christofire]

Definitely a good idea.

A racing line on an aerial view would be good. So long as it has a consistent style between all tracks it'll look good. I'd suggest doing sections along the following lines:

1) General description of the track
- Short / long
- Run off - lots / little / gravel
- Any areas that are important to get right for laptimes

2) Turn by turn description
- Turn name / number
- Screenshot (with racing line?)
- Description of entry, exit, braking, acceleration points
- Any features - gravel trap, don't cut, nasty bumps

3) Lap Description
- How to string the corners together, how to tackle complexes, in depth discussion of the important sections

The above may repeat a little of the information, but it'll be interesting to read, and use as a reference.

To do each track for each car would be hard - you'd need to have section 4 and have a table for braking/accelerating points for each car and turn. Possibly not worth the effort - that's something that each racer will decide for themselves. :)

Finally, for further insipration, see the BMW track guide for the nurburgring. :thumb:

[keithano]

It's certainly a nice idea. However, some really good racers should help or just a subjective personal guide will be written

[JJ72]

Gentlefoot is right I think.

If this is going to be a truly comprehensive guide then it would need to be car specific. Perhaps you should accept and review guides from the community at large or alternatively assign each car a couple of gurus who can write guides for all tracks.

don't think so...that would just be tooo specific, a track guide is to point out the characteristic of the track and it should be the drivers who figure out which line is best with their car/setup. Hell even the same car handles very differently with different setup, so one guide with each combo just don't work.

[Ricou]

Even if it's a good idea, I still think that watching the WR replay or a good driver making fast laps remains the best way to learn everything you need to be fast on a specific combo. :)

[romus74]

It's certainly a nice idea. However, some really good racers should help or just a subjective personal guide will be written

Well it is exactly those rudely subjective articles that I like most, since they shed a light upon the drivers way to think and understanding of the driving. If that driver is experienced and even succesfull, then it must have some value, and give some learning points for less experienced drivers. Add a few other opinions of the same matter and you have a nice soup.

My learning process goes from having a theory, practicing it, understanding the theory better, getting more out of practice sessions, and gradually starting to master the skill. And with driving there are so many skills to learn, and you simultaneously push your skills further away in all fronts, some skills maturing faster, some slower. During this process it helps immensely lot if you get some good help from others.

So another +1 for these guides.

[keithano]

Well it is exactly those rudely subjective articles that I like most, since they shed a light upon the drivers way to think and understanding of the driving. If that driver is experienced and even succesfull, then it must have some value, and give some learning points for less experienced drivers. Add a few other opinions of the same matter and you have a nice soup.

My learning process goes from having a theory, practicing it, understanding the theory better, getting more out of practice sessions, and gradually starting to master the skill. And with driving there are so many skills to learn, and you simultaneously push your skills further away in all fronts, some skills maturing faster, some slower. During this process it helps immensely lot if you get some good help from others.

So another +1 for these guides.

I do understand what you mean. Therefore, what I am trying to point out is that the guide should be written by some experienced and fast racers if it is going to be the subjective-one-man way. Or else, will you read a guide that is written by a noob?

I am not judging the experience and fastness of the thread starter, just .2 cents.

[romus74]

yep Keithano, I agree. I would not myself write such a guide yet :)

[faster111]

81 votes for yes are you going do it it be every useful.

[nihil]

wsinda has written a useful guide to Blackwood in the XFG:
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=229173#post229173

[danowat]

Yeah, I am going to make a start on some others shortly.

[Storm_Cloud]

don't think so...that would just be tooo specific, a track guide is to point out the characteristic of the track and it should be the drivers who figure out which line is best with their car/setup. Hell even the same car handles very differently with different setup, so one guide with each combo just don't work.

With a specific guide, which would include a link to the setup it was written with and also a video, you get an insight into what a top driver does on each particular track and why he does it. You can then learn by imitation and if you pay attention you will do something approaching the speed of the teacher. From there you have a base - you know what can be done and then you leave the comfort zone of the guide and explore how to best adapt the setup to your own style.

It's a much higher base than just doing a generic "this is the track, watch out for that kerb" sort of thing. Figuring out your own set, braking points and line may leave you thinking you're as fast as you can be when in reality you're miles off. Case in point - I drove hundreds of laps at Blackwood in the FOX and was made up if I shaved 0.01s off my time. The I discovered by chance that a corner I was lifting heavily on was actually flat out if you did it right - Wallop! 0.25s off my time in an instant.

[faster111]

Yeah, I am going to make a start on some others shortly. Good luck.

[Peptis]

As a convenience for people living in more enlightened countries, could you put the speed in km/h as well as mph?

[faster111]

As a convenience for people living in more enlightened countries, could you put the speed in km/h as well as mph? Good idea.

[spiderbait90]

And a few words about our plans : The idea now is that everyone can use this new version with its better sounds and smoother graphics, while we get on with the multiplayer-incompatible patch which we hope to finish in just a few weeks (depending on what comes up in that time). That patch (probably known as Patch X) will allow more racers online (probably 24) and more spectators, and various other planned updates for it as well (but no physics changes). Physics updates will come some time after that, probably in version Y and will include updated car cockpits (most notably the GTR interiors) and a graphically improved version of South City. We can't give any more detailed time estimates for those patches because we don't know what will come up while we are working on them.

Sorry to be negative but i think it might be a good idea to wait till after these changes incase anything that severely modifies the handling changes. Unlikely but possible.

[faster111]

4 more votes need to reach 100 %

[Jakg]

4 more votes need to reach 100 %
i dont get it, surely if there are ANY against votes its never gonna reach 100% for?

[faster111]

i dont get it, surely if there are ANY against votes its never gonna reach 100% for? one more vote left to go.

[garph]

one more vote left to go.
Did he say 100 votes and he'll do it or something?

[shaGuar]

I would not read them all. But would probably give the tracks i use a read. Good job btw :tilt:

[faster111]

Did he say 100 votes and he'll do it or something? Dont know but i do know he said in one of the posts his doing one track guide shortly.

[Jakg]

if he said he'll be doing it shortly then how does more votes help?s

[ShannonN]

If you could, It will be great if it's something interactive, a track map with hotspots on every corner, when your cursor overlays it it shows the text and a pic. Again would be great for website usage.

writing style-wise I think it's quite good already.

I did that over two years ago for FE green, map view hover over a track point up pops a window with flash movie of that section in car, etc to compliment a analyser road view with breaking points etc etc no one was really interested in it or helping make it a great resource so I gave up

and nowadays, to make a decent guide takes ages and never satisfies everyone so, i didn't continue with the ideas

ShannonN

[Gentlefoot]

OK not sure if I should re-ignite this thread but am gonna anyway.

I started creating a new track guide last night for KY3/FO8. I've spent all weekend looking at WR times and telemetry and am pulling it all together in a guide. It will feature comparisons of my laps (around high 58s/low 59s) with WR pace laps (around 1:57.7). It will include speed traces, track diagrams and lines, stills of turn in and apex points and in car AVIs that can be played at half speed. The track guide is split into sectors.

The setups I used during the lap analysis process will also be availble.

My server 'GentlefootFO8Racing' is currently running this combo and will continue to do so until I create the next guide in the series. On joining the server a message will appear telling the racer connecting that the track guide and setups are available to www.gentlefoot.com.

I'm hoping that this gives people a reason to race on my server and also improves the standard of driving we see. This will make for closer more fun racing.

What do you all think of this idea? Do you think you will ever study the track guides?

[Glenn67]

Well if you do it in the way you discribe I probably would :) It's a good idea to link it to your server activity :thumb:

If it were just stand alone guides I'd probably still give them a quick look, but with added incentive to drive that combo soon after I'd be more inclined to take a closer look.

So I think your on the right track :p

[Gentlefoot]

Well if you do it in the way you discribe I probably would :) It's a good idea to link it to your server activity :thumb:

If it were just stand alone guides I'd probably still give them a quick look, but with added incentive to drive that combo soon after I'd be more inclined to take a closer look.

So I think your on the right track :p

I'm planning to run a league also. The track guides I will create will be for the FO8 and the tracks will be used in the Gentlefoot Formula V8 Racing League. I'm hoping the guides will encourage people to consider entering. Hope you're interested. Vote for format preferences here

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=23298

Thanks for your input.

GF

[Glenn67]

Hope you're interested

Would love to do league racing but not possible due to living in remote area with poor internet. Good luck with your project though, hope it does well :)

[Gentlefoot]

Would love to do league racing but not possible due to living in remote area with poor internet. Good luck with your project though, hope it does well :)


Shame. Oh well, hope to see you on my server sometime, maybe on a weekend.