Choosing SIMS Over the Real Thing?

[Alan Dove]

As some of you may know I am a karter, and recently I have been witnessed to quite a severe decline in karters in the UK (well licence holders any way). Now I have been thinking recently that with the increase in standard of sims, leagues etc... over the last few years that this could be having an effect on the real racing scene.

Before sims your average Joe would have to maybe look into karting to get his or hers driving and racing fix. However now Joe Bloggs can immerse themselves into the world of sim racing a lot easier and not even think about karting.

My question is this -

Has computer sims taken numbers away from potential real racing cars/karts at the lower levels?

Now I am in no way saying someone should choose reality over sim, but I think the online sim world...or as I call it 'the sleeping dragon'.... could have a real impact on things like karting in the near future etc...

There are so many benefits to online sims over the real deal....and is this having a real impact?

Have any of youn LFS's decided to keep with sims over the real deal?

[Niels Heusinkveld]

IMO if you have even the slightest possibility of racing for real then you'd be quite silly to not do it!

Even lawn mower 4 stroke karting beats simracing! :)

[ATC Quicksilver]

Recently autosport done some research into how much it would cost to get into F1, the figure they came up with was almost £4,000,000. The figure they came up with for a year in UK karting was £15,000 at a low level, £25,000 and mid level and £70,000 at top level. So you would have to find sponsors that are willing to back you, then of course you would need to convince your parents. :shrug:

[Becky Rose]

I descovered sim racing whilst recovering from injuries sustained in a road accident. Until I found sim racing I was a go karter, with ocassional trips into bigger things. Money was always extremely tight and loomed over everything like a dark cloud, tbh i'm glad I havn't gone back to the real thing. I'm sick of finishing 3rd behind budgets bigger than my ego.

EDIT: Just out of interest, when I was looking to raise a budget of £20k for karting and it got mentioned on these forums I had to take a lot of flakk - careful with revealing the truth - forum posters know more about real life than those who take part in it :D *cheesy grin*

[Alan Dove]

So if you didn't have sims Becky would you still be racing karts?

What class did you wanna race in with a budget of 20k?

[duke_toaster]

FWIH, costs in karting have gone astronomical, maybe that's why there are less karters and they are going in to other forms of racing like autograss :shrug:

Sim racing isn't killing any r/l motorsport at the moment, some formula are killing themself. Some drivers in the USA (ARCA or Indy Lights it was I think) have got real life test drives and one or two a race seat from sim racing. But that's on ovals, so it's a different ball game ...

[Alan Dove]

I am not sure costs have gone up as such. I think people promising new 'cheaper' classes has meant when people spend as much as they did before the perception is that costs have raised. However I DO RECOGNISE that the 'value for money' factor in karting isn't as good as it should be at all. That's why I am asking these questions about sims.

[FOGlegsy]

I could buy a set of soft/intermediate tyres for my mini moto for around £75 and within 3 meetings there totally shot, now thats just tyres, dont forget maintainance,piston rings, gaskets,brakepads, clutches ect ect ect hell even the fuel to get there!

Or..

buy LFS for £24 and sit back and enjoy hours of fun without the expense, (well beer n munchies but thats it :))

[--==Gogo==--]

To be honest: I think I would shit my pants while going through a shikane with 200 km/h!

I've tried cart once but I'm a real coward on the real track! :nod:

[Alan Dove]

A set of kart tyres only last a meeting and they only last one meet really! lol

So again, have you chosen LFS over the real thing?

[ATC Quicksilver]

I don't think people would choose a computer game over real life racing, they are more likely to have stopped real life racing due to the cost and looked for something which will partially satisfy their need for racing. I doubt they were actually racing karts then saw LFS and quit to play it. Usually talent is missed because the people who have rich daddys get the best gear and all the support they need, leaving the less well off struggling to keep up with old karts, 3rd hand parts and cheap tyres.

[FOGlegsy]

A set of kart tyres only last a meeting and they only last one meet really! lol

So again, have you chosen LFS over the real thing?


yes,
because of the money firstly, secondly, i now have a one year old daughter to pay for. thirdly, im self employed so if i injure myself i cant work. no work no ££££ sad but true, fortunatly it will get out a few times this year in the summer but only for fun on test days,

[Alan Dove]

I don't think people would choose a computer game over real life racing, they are more likely to have stopped real life racing due to the cost and looked for something which will partially satisfy their need for racing. I doubt they were actually racing karts then saw LFS and quit to play it. Usually talent is missed because the people who have rich daddys get the best gear and all the support they need, leaving the less well off struggling to keep up with old karts, 3rd hand parts and cheap tyres.

Yes, i totally understand your point. But if your a big simmer....into proper cockpits, decent wheel and PC.....there could a point that they have chosen LFS over investigating the real deal.

Before simming people had no choice but to check out their local kart track. Now people can sim, and not even consider the real thing. The real thing never enters their head.

[tristancliffe]

If there were decent karts, but without full engine rebuilds every 37 seconds, then I'd consider it.

I nearly bought a TKM chassis last year, but was put off by the horrendous engine rebuild costs. If you don't do it you ain't even gonna be vaguely competative. I'm sure the human race can make a decent 2-stroke engine of okay power output without stressing the whole thing that much - just use more cc.

Even the cost of those silly airbox inlets in TKM is silly - captive market, so they jack the prices up...

Basically, karting is killing itself, but no one seems to care, because the people that can do anything about it can afford the silly costs.

[Alan Dove]

lol I don't mind short rebuilds tbh because they pay off is a great driving experience....

Rotax has been the dominant force in UK karting in recent years and they last a good few more hours than a TKM if you want them too....

Also consider that in the late 80's engines when 20min engines were at their peak karting was pretty big in the UK. Instead now we have longer life engines...but with decreasing numbers overall.

and by the way TKM.....EXPENSIVE?!?!?!? it's the cheapest class around.....!!! lol

However.....I take your point...... and this is what I am worried about...compared to sims....even the cheapest kart class is considered SUPER EXPENSIVE...surely this must be having an effect?

[tristancliffe]

If I were a newbie karter (I am I suppose) then I'd like a series where the karts are as quick as TKM's, but last a season between rebuilds (obviously tyres, chains, sprockets etc might need more attention, but they are wear-and-tear items). Then your biggest expense should be fuel, travelling and race entry fees. Unfortunately these three things are the least expensive part of karting in a decent series...

My F3 season will cost be a lot less than a season of karting if you ignore the initial costs (i.e. a car is more expensive). The actual running costs are almost negligable.

[Alan Dove]

well you should look at this Tristan - http://www.easykart.co.uk/

[FOGlegsy]

looks good, shame they set the gearing per track...... it makes it even sure... but setting up is half the fun!

[Alan Dove]

that's really to reduce revs and the stop advantage wealthier drivers can gain from revving higher.... but I do see where you are coming from :)

[MAGGOT]

I'd rather do both than be forced to choose...

[ATC Quicksilver]

Alan how much money do you spend on karting?

[Alan Dove]

lol.....:x:x:x

I have just got an Aixro XR50 kart which my budget is now stretched lol .... 50hp wankel kart engine OMG VERY VERY FAST...... :) :)

but tbh I don't spend that much....I am not too bothered about racing so costs aren't high!

[ATC Quicksilver]

So you spend loads of money on a kart, then don't race it much? Wankel is my favourite word :D

[JamesK]

Well, I started on Autograss class 1, doesn't get any cheaper than that - no tyre wear problems, rarely have to touch the engine (I did two seasons with an engine with 70K on it already, lol), just stuff like CV joints/bearings/brakes to service regularly. I'm surprised more people don't do it!

Sim racing isn't as good, but its an adequate substitute :)

[The_Duke]

I personally chose LFS to karting just over a year ago.

I was in the dilemma of choosing between provincial Rotax karting in South-Africa, or buying a flat (instead of renting) and not to mention getting on in life in general.

Although karting is the entry level for motorsport, the costs in maintenance, entrance fees, karts, etc is just a real killer.

I still participate in certain "hire-kart" events. And no, not the lawnmower engined variety!

With LFS you don't get all the kicks, but at least you still get the essence of racing, but at minimal costs.

[keiran]

and by the way TKM.....EXPENSIVE?!?!?!? it's the cheapest class around.....!!!

I'd have to disagree with my experiences of it. Due to my age after cadets I had to race TKM before I could get to Rotax Max if I didn't want to sit a year out. At the end of the year when we looked back we spent less money on running costs with the Max, the price difference in engines meant the TKM came out `cheapest`.

The thing with TKM is your engines need rebuilt something like every 9 hours. A Max can do a lot more than that, proven by someone at my local club who racked up something like 50hours before the big end went.

At my local track Max is the class to be in, TKM is a dieing class or was last time I was up.

The great thing with Rotax Max is although the engine is more expensive it's sealed and lasts a good amount of hours. It's not comprimised in top speed, when I raced the Jnr Max were quicker than Snr TKMs and still seem to be at my local track. And in the wet us Jnr Maxers with Bridgestone wets were the fastest of everyone :p

The only real problem with the class is the tyres are just too damn soft. Thats where I struggled to keep up with the people I raced who would use 3 sets of new tyres over the weekend. I had one new set of tyres all year and with them mounted I was able to lap quicker than the ones who would fit 3 new sets per weekend. After the tyres started wearing though it was back to really having to drive hard to keep up and most of the time thats all I could do, was just hang on. If the tyre was hard and designed to last half a season or something then that would reduce costs seriously and stop the richer people buying new tyres every two races.

Another problem with kart racing is there are too many classes. It filters people out into very small gropus which isn't near as fun as racing with large fields of drivers and makes it boring for spectators/potential new racers.

I still think karting could be a lot more popular in its current form with no changes. The problem is people assume karts as being those 4stroke Honda all purpose engine toys rather than the fast 2 strokes the majority race.

To sum up, I personally don't see Sim racing affecting real racing. If someone offered to pay my costs for a seasons racing on the terms that I gave up racing LFS then I'd accept it without even thinking. As good as LFS is, the real thing is just too exciting to miss out on. Unfortuantley I can't afford to go racing being a student and my parents can't aford to help me out anymore either.

[Alan Dove]

lol... the main problem with the MAX is that is it is about as exciting to drive as a Vauxhall Corsa stuck in 5th Gear.... way to slow, too much grip, and too expensive...and on the decline it seems....AT LAST!

some interesting points though....

But would you guys agree that Sims have made it a lot easier to choose not to do the real thing if money is a factor. For example, before, when you may have worked a little harder and made more sacrifices to do something like karting, you are in a situation now where you might not go that extra mile because sims are there instead. for sure if you had the choice reality all the way...and maybe b4 sims u would have had NO choose but to do the real thing..... sims have made it easier NOT to go the extra mile?

[undertech]

Not just money, but time. With LFS you just boot up and go, and when it's over you turn it off. With any sort of racing you need to make sure everything's shipshape, then afterwards you need to make sure again. And if you do it right I reckon it's quite a bit of time.
I do agree though there is no substitute for the real thing but we all have our limits in free time and available money. Otherwise we'd all be out there now wouldn't we?

[Alan Dove]

well this is the thing. Why are you lot not out there?

Karting is relatively cheap. You can do TKM really cheaply... OK not PC sim cheap....but cheap enough, and the thrills are high.

Karting is just an example for sure....this isn't just a kart based argument, but obviously karting being the best bang for buck....imo

I don't think free time is much of an issue. I know how long some of you guys spend on LFS....a lot more than most karters spend on karting.....

For sure it isn't as simple as why do you do karting instead of simming.....because its not as if you can only do ONE of them..... but do get the feel that sims make it easier not to do the real thing.....

is it just cost?

[marsaz]

Sim has no chances over the real thing, not yet.

Not all of us live in wealthy Countries and racing events don't happen every day, so you can play the sim between racing IRL...

I do karting myself and i can say that choosing sims over the real thing is the same as choosing tasty smell instead of food:)

[Gimpster]

I just got in to Autox, the poor mans racing. I figgure for my first year I will be spending about $500, but I will not be competitive. The fast guys all have sponsers, share cars to keep the costs down and still spend 2k+ per year at the local level. Its also gona be tough in my area as we seem to have a large number of national chanpions in the local area. :shrug:

[Bob Smith]

I'd very much like to get into racing. Car racing that is, karting holds little interest for me. Getting into some one make series, like the TVR Tuscan Challenge, would be my dream. I don't think it would particularly difficult either if you have the wedge (my Dad's friend used to race TVRs, had his own team of engineers he hired at various weekends, they drove the car on a trailer to the event and everything, he just turned up and raced... NOT cheap).

[MyBoss]

Can someone buy me a Formual 1 car and let me race for free?

[Becky Rose]

But would you guys agree that Sims have made it a lot easier to choose not to do the real thing if money is a factor.
Yes definately. It's an easy option in some respects, it satisfied my lust for racing without the huge burden of financial turmoil which I was finding myself in regularly.

I raced Pro Karts, which is a sealed engine formula. Sealed engine formulas are meant to be cheaper because you are not allowed to do things inside the block right? Wrong. It means that you have to go to more expensive engine tuners who are Honda authorised to get them tuned and to stay competitive, as they're the only ones who can reseal them - and 98% of the time the tags are not checked anyway, but...

I remember one race where the clerk slipped that an MSA steward was on the way down during the briefing, suddenly over half a dozen top teams lost 2 seconds a lap (37 second lap) and one [suspect team] just went home early blaming a failure which nobody saw. The steward never arrived, but it was funny as hell to me (I was running in new engines anyway) and boosted my result :D. That was club level.

Costs in club racing are now horrendous. It's not just the cost of a kart, but now you need a laptop computer to link to the onboard computer to get out the last tenth or two of performance in data analyses.

Whilst I applaud the "high technology" that is creaping into karting because i'm a nerd, on the other hand I just cant afford it.

At least I was glad when they banned tyre warmers. I didn't like the thought of forking out for those for a 2 lap advantage.

[Becky Rose]

What class did you wanna race in with a budget of 20k?
I wanted to move up to national pro karts (Paul Bowler series) with the ultimate aim of returning to the Le Mans 24 hour Pro Kart race and ... touch wood ... winning it. I'd still like to win that race. It's an incomplete ambition, but it'd be somewhere in the region of a yearly budget just for that one race... I wont even bother going again if I cant afford overnight security after the last time, let alone a camper, provisions, testing budget, etc etc etc....

[v4forlife]

Just do what a large population of sports bikers do. Go to trackdays, start in novice and work your way up to the top group, then think about maybe the odd round of a novice championship, grab yourself an ACU licence and your away. you can pick up a nc30 track bike for as little as £800, tyres for maybe £200 a set, you should already have leathers, then its down to travel and entry fee's. I reckon you could make a season last on £5,000. You may not be that competative, but your racing.
With somthing liek the daytona cup, all the bikes are the same, on a contol tyre, so it is down to the rider totally.
Cheap(ish) racing.

[Becky Rose]

Every friend i've had that has died, did so on a motor bike. I can't say i'm a fan of them personally.

[v4forlife]

Were any of them on track?

Just that riding ont he road is, on a motorbike, very dangerous.
Track riding is the safest way to properly ride you bike. A controlled environment, First-aid within 2 mins away, people to warn you of other accidents, spilages etc.
If I could just ride on track, and give up road riding, i would, but it would take alor of track time, and alot of money, as I ride everyday, almost without fail. Though with my bike being my only form of transport, I don't really have a choice.

[ATC Quicksilver]

Put it this way, even Valentino Rossi doesn't like riding fast bikes on the road...he mostly uses scooters if he has to get somewhere.

[undertech]

well this is the thing. Why are you lot not out there?

Karting is relatively cheap. You can do TKM really cheaply... OK not PC sim cheap....but cheap enough, and the thrills are high.

Karting is just an example for sure....this isn't just a kart based argument, but obviously karting being the best bang for buck....imo

I don't think free time is much of an issue. I know how long some of you guys spend on LFS....a lot more than most karters spend on karting.....

For sure it isn't as simple as why do you do karting instead of simming.....because its not as if you can only do ONE of them..... but do get the feel that sims make it easier not to do the real thing.....

is it just cost?

Man, I *wish* I had the free time to spend on what some of the ppl do on LFS or karting or whatever (have a look at my LFSW profile if you don't believe me)...maybe one day I will get there but that day seems so far away. If I do ever get there I'll definitely be doing SOMETHING other than LFS, but for now LFS gives me the hourlong shots in the arm to keep me going.
The best I can do as far as 'real' goes atm are the indoor tracks around here in the US where you rent karts for $1/min. I do that about once a month or so. Of course, the track is short and a flat, perfectly geometric masterpiece, karts are a crapshoot, and it's a blast :tilt:
Yes, it makes me want to build one of my own and get out on the big tracks!

[Alan Dove]

I wanted to move up to national pro karts (Paul Bowler series) with the ultimate aim of returning to the Le Mans 24 hour Pro Kart race and ... touch wood ... winning it. I'd still like to win that race. It's an incomplete ambition, but it'd be somewhere in the region of a yearly budget just for that one race... I wont even bother going again if I cant afford overnight security after the last time, let alone a camper, provisions, testing budget, etc etc etc....

20k on PROKARTS!!!!!??!?!?!?!?!? wtf...!!!!!!

maybe on doing TKM at S1....but PROKARTS??!?!? £20K???? HOW?

[Blowtus]

I've given up taking my daily driver to the track every so often since I took up league racing in LFS. Really couldn't be bothered with the expense of it. I still get my adrenalin fix from my dirtbike though.

[Leprekaun]

Well, I have an ambition that probably a lot of you have as well, getting to F1. I haven't started in karts and am probably too old to start now :( but I am planning to see in car racing. I'm pleased to see racing schools blooming up, gives me some hope. I'm hoping to see about getting to Silverstone either this summer or maybe after school (2 years) to try and acquaint myself with how it works then hopefully, I'd like to try and see if I can get into one of the low formulae (FF1600, Formula V), something like that and then I can just pray that I'm good enough to kick ass and move up through the different formulae to get to my dream job, F1 :D.

[Alan Dove]

To quote Pedro De La Rosa

""For Formula One you really have to start in go-karts when you are really young.

If I had done things differently I would probably be where I am today at the age of 25, not 35."

There is a reason why the best driver ever...Senna...described karting as the purest form of motorsport, and that he learnt everything, everything, everything from karting

Don't underestimate karting dude....:) in fact to be honest I would rather race top flight karts than F1.....the competition is so much better and probably higher

[jtr99]

Well, I have an ambition that probably a lot of you have as well, getting to F1.

No, actually my ambition is to have a solid gold toilet, a diamond house, and a mattress stuffed with truffles. I think we have similar chances of seeing our dreams fulfilled! :)

[Becky Rose]

Don't underestimate karting dude.... in fact to be honest I would rather race top flight karts than F1.....the competition is so much better and probably higher
tbh if I was to re-invest in motor racing again i'd probably go for an entry level single seater formula over karting as the costs are lower/comparable to kart racing.

[pearcy_2k7]

At 15 im seriously thinking of doing karting myself, for me no sim can be as good as doing the real thing.

The only thing im struggling with is cost, my dad races himself and can spend maybe £2000 a race im wondering how much karting would be.

My dad isnt sure wether ill stick to it or not so isnt sure wether to buy me a kart, i should think that would be the biggest issue for most people.

[Alan Dove]

£2000 a race???? If he did European Formula A karting maybe, but if you starting karting you wouldn't spend more than £300 per race.

Becky u knows proper karting is where its AT! :) Ever thought about 250cc Superkarts lol... OMG they are just NUTS!

[Gentlefoot]

Cheapest form of real world motorsport is sprint racing but then there's no wheel to wheel action. Next cheapest would be stuff like the tin tops series or even non MSA events like mighty minis and that type of thing.

I competed in sprints for a couple of years but still ran out of money. I sim race because its free but obviously the two disciplines are completely different from each other. You don't have to get up at 5:30 to go sim racing. You don't have £100 entry fees. Tyres don't need replacing, there is no risk of injury (well not really). There is no scutineering to ruin your day. You don't need a licence.

I really think you can't compare the two. When I'm on track for real I feel completely different emotions from SIM racing.

In summary, I don't think SIM racing is killing grass roots motorsport. Pretty sure MSA licence holder numbers have remained pretty consistent over the last few years.

[pearcy_2k7]

He races proppa cars lol :D

Edit: tyres alone cost £500 and he has to buy a set every race

[nikimere]

There is no way a computer simulator could EVER replace the real thing.
I've raced karts, single seaters and low-level touring cars all over the past 15 years and since i've stopped i've been playing LFS.
I didn't choose LFS over RL racing, it's just something fun to do the odd evening.
Nothing compares to actually driving a real racing car around a track.
About karting being expensive... it depends on what you call expensive.
I know for a fact a MAX engine can do a full season and still be quick at the end.
All these big karting teams get the rich daddies in and rip them a new one!
They say "oh you need to rebuild the engine every hour" or a new chassis every 3 races etc...
The only thing you need to spend money on is tyres. Depending on the type of tyre (compound etc.) you'd never need more than 2 sets a weekend.
But to answer the OP's question: No i dont think Sims are bringing down the numbers in RL racing.
I'd question anybodies mentality who picks LFS (or any Sim) over real life.

[duke_toaster]

Cheapest form of real world motorsport is sprint racing but then there's no wheel to wheel action. Next cheapest would be stuff like the tin tops series or even non MSA events like mighty minis and that type of thing.

Autograss?

[thisnameistaken]

I have no desire to be a racing driver. Anybody else here or am I alone in this? :shrug:

I watch motorsport, and sims help me understand a bit more about what proper racing drivers have to do to go fast so it makes watching motorsport more interesting, but it doesn't make me want to do it myself.

[pearcy_2k7]

Ive been a petrol head all my life, if someone give me something with an engine and wheels id go as fast as i can ivealways been like that.

plus im really competetive, which helps :D

[AK-Chester]

I have no desire to be a racing driver. Anybody else here or am I alone in this? :shrug:

I watch motorsport, and sims help me understand a bit more about what proper racing drivers have to do to go fast so it makes watching motorsport more interesting, but it doesn't make me want to do it myself.
Nope, you are not alone. :)

[Alan Dove]

In summary, I don't think SIM racing is killing grass roots motorsport. Pretty sure MSA licence holder numbers have remained pretty consistent over the last few years.

Well in karting there has been a 56% drop in new licence holders from 2001-2005. I can't imagine that would be down to PC's, but there has been a drop.

[Becky Rose]

That's because you want to be a rock star, AK :D

[Gentlefoot]

I have no desire to be a racing driver. Anybody else here or am I alone in this? :shrug:




No, you're not alone mate. I used to think I wanted to be a racing driver until I realised how terrorfying it is driving bumper to bumper with other cars whilst on the limit on a track.

Well in karting there has been a 56% drop in new licence holders from 2001-2005. I can't imagine that would be down to PC's, but there has been a drop.

I stand corrected :)

Autograss?

I guess you mean autocross. Well yeah I suppose there is that. Not something I've ever been interested in doing. Has to be tarmac for me :)

[v4forlife]

I love the closeness. Unfortunatly, I only ride on the road at the moment. I really dont want to continue like this, which is why I'm saving for a 1-piece and a cheap trackbike. save the speeds for the safest environment you can do it in.

[Gentlefoot]

I love the closeness. Unfortunatly, I only ride on the road at the moment. I really dont want to continue like this, which is why I'm saving for a 1-piece and a cheap trackbike. save the speeds for the safest environment you can do it in.

I've been tempted to do the same thing mate. Want to give up riding on the road. Been riding 5 years and never come off but the way I ride it's luck more than cautiousness. I think I'm pushing my luck now but on track would be much safer.

[Hyperactive]

Imho, most sims can be used as a training tool. It is still thing of future but it will grow bigger. In the end, driving a pretty bad car on real track is still countless times more fun than any sim can be. Choosing sims over real thing - never. Sims will always be the 2nd thing for anyone who wants to race a real thing. And sims can be good "games" too :)

It is pretty much like saying "choosing 1st person shooters over paintball" :)

[AK-Chester]

That's because you want to be a rock star, AK :D
Nah, that would require making an album, wouldn't it, Becky? I only played in a handful of bands, and wrote a few hundred songs (ages ago). Today I'm glad most of them were never released. Hehe. Sorry for OT. :D

[Alan Dove]

I know sims aren't as good.

But that initial bit of interest, buzz or whatever can be fixed with a wheel and PC...... naturally people are thinking 'i like watching F1 or whatever racing.....i want to try a good racing game'.....instead of..... 'I like racing....this is 1990 so no games exist (lol)....I might go and try out karting'

The thought patterns are shifting..... Yes reality is better, but I am becoming increasingly sire that PC sims are satisfying needs up to a point, which means people don't drive 20 miles to their local kart track.

NOW, I think this is where karting and other forms of motorsport need to catch up.

In karting people keep on saying...the interest isn't there anymore, and they keep on inventing new classes and stuff like that... basically ruining the sport for people that don't exist.... I think the interest in motorsport is still there, and healthy....THE SIM WORLD..... i think there needs to be a closure relationship between the sim world and the real thing. Karting is no longer the grassroots of motor sport.....simming is!

[Becky Rose]

Well if the MSA is worried about dropping figures they should have respond ed to my email :D Maybe it's time to send again...

[Alan Dove]

lol... u need more than an e-mail to get a response from the MSA....people have only just stared getting there 2007 licences....its been a complete JOKE this year the.

[tristancliffe]

Took me 4 days to get my temporary licence, whilst they were having card printer problems, and the correct card turned up the next day. Not a joke at all if you ask me.

In fact, it's not much worse than previous years really, just the odd hold up with the new cards (which still need a carbboard upgrade card to live with it, defeating the point of having a card licence, and that also needs a photo on it... rant rant rant).

[Gentlefoot]

lol... u need more than an e-mail to get a response from the MSA....people have only just stared getting there 2007 licences....its been a complete JOKE this year the.

Last couple of years mine has arrived real quick. Glad I haven't bothered this year.

[Alan Dove]

tristan u were one of the lucky ones! The Licence issue has been one of the biggest issues this year

[duke_toaster]

I guess you mean autocross. Well yeah I suppose there is that. Not something I've ever been interested in doing. Has to be tarmac for me :)

http://www.srh-motorsport-photography.com/Galleries/thumbs/14-05-06---245.jpg

http://www.srh-motorsport-photography.com/Galleries/thumbs/23-07-06---298.jpg

That.

[Gentlefoot]

http://www.srh-motorsport-photography.com/Galleries/thumbs/14-05-06---245.jpg

http://www.srh-motorsport-photography.com/Galleries/thumbs/23-07-06---298.jpg

That.

looks like RallyX. Or maybe even a non-msa oval event like the mighty minis which I mentioned in my original post. Autocross is against the clock.

[anttt69]

Well it aint Mini X they run windscreens. Autograss is my best guess.

On topic: I dont think people choose sim racing over real racing its more of a means to an end kind of thing. You want to race for real but you cant afford to so you sim race instead. Its the easy option.
If you think about it you could probably start sim racing for 100pounds & its easy to do. No limitations like age, driving licence, & getting to events. Where as real life racing gona cost you at least 100 pound per meeting & thats at a basic level (say sprinting your road car).

I used to compete in sprints & hillclimbs (like gentlefoot) & some rallycross, but it just got so damn expensive & I lost my job. When and where did you compete gentlefoot & what class did you run in.

[FOGlegsy]

I've been tempted to do the same thing mate. Want to give up riding on the road. Been riding 5 years and never come off but the way I ride it's luck more than cautiousness. I think I'm pushing my luck now but on track would be much safer.

A friend of mine left a bike meet half hour earlier than me, unfortunatly he hit a tractor (with no back lights at night!) at over 90 mph, the poor guy didnt have a chance,

stay safe, keep it on the track

[Viper93]

Well if the MSA is worried about dropping figures they should have respond ed to my email :D Maybe it's time to send again...


:nod::nod: They better this time, they have no reason not to with your figures! :D

[Alan Dove]

On topic: I dont think people choose sim racing over real racing its more of a means to an end kind of thing. You want to race for real but you cant afford to so you sim race instead. Its the easy option.
If you think about it you could probably start sim racing for 100pounds & its easy to do. No limitations like age, driving licence, & getting to events. Where as real life racing gona cost you at least 100 pound per meeting & thats at a basic level (say sprinting your road car).


I agree that people choose Sims over the real thing....but I think people do not even consider karting (or something else) because sims are kinda under cutting them.

People are not even aware karting exists, and whereas before sims, if they wanted to drive they had to go and find their local kart track, now all they have to do is buy a game.....

someone may go from sims to the real thing....but I do think that entry level racing is now sims....

I don't think sims are doing anything bad, and it's more a reflection on how poorly karting promotes itself.....

[Becky Rose]

Everyone into motor racing knows that karting exists, it's just that those of us who have tried it or looked into it have found that costs at club level have soared to the point that to be competitive (which is what it's all about at the end of the day) and win, takes a budget that could run an entry level single seater. The reason is because karts have become over engineered and technologically detached from the original "mower engine on a chasis" concept.

I used to pay £200 for a full tub of engine oil... That's just unreasonable! But it was ultra thin and allowed the pistons to move with less resistance, and therefore directly translated to a small increase in performance. Every small advantage has a big expense.

Whereas entry level racing with big cars can be done competitively with smaller budgets because it is lower technology.

I would rather do sim racing. Ironically, even though i'm less competitive against these kids...

[nihil]

Autocross is against the clock.

Not here in the UK - autocross (http://www.aemc.org.uk/Motor_Sport/Autocross/autocross.html) is a grass/mud track event. What everyone else calls 'autocross', we call autosolo or autotest (autotest involves both forward and backward manoevres, tricksy stuff usually done in strange, hacked up minis: http://www.msa-autotest.org.uk/ )

[Alan Dove]

The technology of aircooled 2 strokes is as simple as it gets....piston, housing, chassis, wheels...and the less we speak about mower engined prokarts the better! lol....:)

To do TKM is about £600 upfront for kart + engine.....a weekend of racing is no more than £200. A season of Formula Jedi is about £15k, and a season of club karting + tons of test days is more like £5000 tops

[Becky Rose]

£600 for a TKM?
Planet Earth is over here.

TKM is a pretty much dying formula it seems, but after considerable searching I eventually found a manufacturer who still make a TKM chasis, namely Tal-Ko - not sure if my memory serves correct (I havnt raced TKM in a decade or so) but I seem to recall it being Tal-Ko who make the engine - a desperate move to save the class maybe? I dunno.

Anyway it was £1450 + VAT.

A little more than £600 eh :).

[Alan Dove]

we are not talking buying brand new here, we are talking second hand...and you can pick up a pretty half sharp package for that.

"TKM Extreme
TKM Extreme complete Kart ready to race. 2005 Project One Chassis in excellent condition, as new. Has been stripped and cleaned after every outing. Won Bayford Meadows championship 2004 & 2005 on this engine and used the chasis for 2005 winning championship. Extreme engine only 1 hour use since last rebuild. Loads of spares including wheels, tyres (Slicks & Wets), spare carbs, oil, coils etc etc. Everything to go racing. Willing to help with set up etc..

Price: £800"

TKM has a little growth in seniors in recent years, not much....but karting in general is on downturn in terms of numbers.

[thisnameistaken]

Alan - How many people are currently racing in a kart series in the UK? Or worldwide? We've got a few hundred regular racers in LFS and a few thousand part-timers. I'm guessing there are more karters?

[csimpok]

Last year I had to chance to try a ~30HP Rotax Max gokart for 15 minutes. I had no other previous real life racing experience (apart from the 3-4 HP "gokarts" in amusement parks :D).
I pushed pedal to the metal and reached 120 kmh in just a few seconds lol, it seemed crazy. If I practiced with it every day I would get used to it without doubt. But the cost of racing is very high so I stick with LFS for the time being :D
Anyway I personally think sims are good indicators so if somebody is among the fastest racers in a sim community he would be among the best in real life, too.

[Becky Rose]

Funnily enough i've bought a second hand Project 1 TKM in the past. Being old though, it just wasn't competitive. Too many bangs here and there, and you just dont know what you're getting second hand. I want to win and I dont want to sell myself short with shoddy equipment, so there's no way i'd buy second hand again.

[Alan Dove]

Last year I had to chance to try a ~30HP Rotax Max gokart for 15 minutes. I had no other previous real life racing experience (apart from the 3-4 HP "gokarts" in amusement parks :D).
I pushed pedal to the metal and reached 120 kmh in just a few seconds lol, it seemed crazy. If I practiced with it every day I would get used to it without doubt. But the cost of racing is very high so I stick with LFS for the time being :D
Anyway I personally think sims are good indicators so if somebody is among the fastest racers in a sim community he would be among the best in real life, too.

hehe and the Rotrax MAX, even though popular, is one of the worst kart engines ever built in my opinion....it's just plain wrong....no bottom end, no top end, slow, and way to complicated! lol....get yourself an ebay 100cc for peanuts and feel the power....nothing, and I mean nothing comes close!

[Gentlefoot]

I used to compete in sprints & hillclimbs (like gentlefoot) & some rallycross, but it just got so damn expensive & I lost my job. When and where did you compete gentlefoot & what class did you run in.

TWMC All Circuit Sprint Championship. Finished RU in the Modified Production under 2000cc class 2005 which is probably the most competitive class there is. We run at Lydden, Goodwood, Silverstone and Brands. Great fun and highly recomended.

How about you mate?

[duke_toaster]

looks like RallyX. Or maybe even a non-msa oval event like the mighty minis which I mentioned in my original post. Autocross is against the clock.

It's autograss.

400 metre or so (1/4 mile) grass oval track which quickly deteriorates as the season goes on, ranging from minis through silhouette "Minis" with rover V8s to V8 specials.

The road cars and modified road cars have the glass removed. It is non-MSA, it's run by NASA.

[anttt69]

How about you mate?


I did the CCC championship in 2001 & Midland speed champ the following year, competing in a standard(ish) 205 gti. I Rallycrossed in a stock hatch XR2i more recently. I've raced at Lydden, Brands, Coombe, Pembrey, Curb, Aintree, Harewood, Croft, Shelsley, Cornbury Park & Anglesey.

Just Donny & Oulton to do & my life is complete :)

You cant beat getting on the track in any car, I have also track dayed @ Cadwell & Mallory.
What car did you compete in?

[Gentlefoot]

I did the CCC championship in 2001 & Midland speed champ the following year, competing in a standard(ish) 205 gti. I Rallycrossed in a stock hatch XR2i more recently. I've raced at Lydden, Brands, Coombe, Pembrey, Curb, Aintree, Harewood, Croft, Shelsley, Cornbury Park & Anglesey.

Just Donny & Oulton to do & my life is complete :)

You cant beat getting on the track in any car, I have also track dayed @ Cadwell & Mallory.
What car did you compete in?

Competed in a heavily modded mkII golf. Although the mods were only completed towards the end of the season. Done a lot of track days too. Been to Oulton, Donny, Croft, Mallory, The Ring (on a GSX600R tho), Bedford and Cadwell.

Here, my mate who runs www.balancemotorsport.co.uk (http://www.balancemotorsport.co.uk) runs a 205 too. There's a section on the website about it.

[Albieg]

I have no desire to be a racing driver. Anybody else here or am I alone in this? :shrug:

I watch motorsport, and sims help me understand a bit more about what proper racing drivers have to do to go fast so it makes watching motorsport more interesting, but it doesn't make me want to do it myself.

I never had that desire too. That's why when I saw someone saying there's a lot of frustration in the sim racing scene because we all wanted or want to become real life racers I got a bit mad... then I realised it wasn't a frustration of mine, so I had good reasons to smile.
If I had to choose, I'd prefer sim racing over real life racing for a lot of reasons. But I would like to do a lap or two on a real F1 car just to satisfy a curiosity of mine. It's highly unlikely I'll be able to do it. I won't lose my sleep over it, however, I'm too busy with the rest of my interests :)

[tristancliffe]

IBut I would like to do a lap or two on a real F1 car just to satisfy a curiosity of mine. It's highly unlikely I'll be able to do it.

You'd be surprised just how easy it is to drive one. The only drawback would be the sensitive clutch, but everyone stalls the first [couple of] time[s]

[thisnameistaken]

You'd be surprised just how easy it is to drive one.

So which one have you driven? :scratchch

To be honest I'd quite like to have a little super seven in my garage to toss about in at the weekends, but that's as far as my ambitions go.

[tristancliffe]

Nope, but I know people who have. It's on my to-do list, but last time I checked you had to be 25, and I was 23 at the time. I'll start saving up :)

Besides, why should it be difficult? As long as you are aware what the pedals and twirly thing do then it's identical to a road car. Unless you drive a modern one, in which case the disabled paddles for gear changes and Zanardi style clutch might take a couple of minutes to learn, but then you'd [probably] have TC and it'd be like driving a 998cc Mini Countryman.

[Alan Dove]

hehe... it might be easy for one lap until your neck goes! A high grip kart can set the men from the boys pretty quickly, so imagine what an F1 car would do! :)

[thisnameistaken]

Nope, but I know people who have. It's on my to-do list, but last time I checked you had to be 25, and I was 23 at the time. I'll start saving up :)

I'm 32, where do I sign? I'll let you know how easy it is. :D

[anttt69]

http://www.drivingexperiences.co.uk/folder.asp?catid=47&gclid=CLKIla79q4sCFSUnEAodhz7qNg

it aint cheap

[thisnameistaken]

http://www.drivingexperiences.co.uk/folder.asp?catid=47&gclid=CLKIla79q4sCFSUnEAodhz7qNg

it aint cheap

Looks like a late '80s car. Surely not one of the killer 1.5L turbo monsters? :D I'd pay twice for a go in one of those!

[tristancliffe]

hehe... it might be easy for one lap until your neck goes! A high grip kart can set the men from the boys pretty quickly, so imagine what an F1 car would do! :)

Nah, I don't think you'd find two or three laps too much of a problem, as you'd be so far from the limit to make it bearable on the neck...

I'm 32, where do I sign? I'll let you know how easy it is. :D

Sign on the bottom of a cheque with no other handwriting on it, and post it to m... errr F1 Driving Challenge, c/o Tristan Cliffe, Th.. nah only kidding. Just send it to me directly :)

Looks like a late '80s car. Surely not one of the killer 1.5L turbo monsters? :D I'd pay twice for a go in one of those!


First one (yellow) looks like a Forti Corse (1991?), second one I'd say is a 1989 car, but I can't think which one... They'll be 3.5l NAs I'm afraid.

[Hyperactive]

The price seems to be quite the same as with high-end sim hardware. Instead of new hq wheel&pedals you might want consider to take a F1 car for a spin ;)

[anttt69]

you could probably buy an old Formula Ford for that much.

[GP4Flo]

If you have 4,799.00 € spare, you can drive a '96 Formula One Car for four (!) laps on the Nürburgring short circuit.
http://www.zakspeed.de/the-motorsport-company/index.php?id=377

Some years ago I did some laps in a Formula Renault at the Nürburgring. Really a nice experience, but also very expensive. It's all about making money there. In the end I only got about 3 free laps to drive, the rest was theory and learning how to accelerate / brake / shift.

[nihil]

I'd pay twice for a go in one of those!

Looking down the list of links, I want a go in the Hover Fly Tank.... Uh... Oh, that's Hover/Fly/Tank... Not so interested now....

[Alan Dove]

Nah, I don't think you'd find two or three laps too much of a problem, as you'd be so far from the limit to make it bearable on the neck...


But you said driving an F1 is easy... i presumed you meant at the limit. :)

[keiran]

If the MSA are worried why the hell don't they do something about it?

On the topic of licenses, they messed up one of my friends back in 02. It was there fault yet to race he ended up having to pay a fine of some sort, I think it was £100.

I didn't bother to renew my license in 03 and still haven't to this day. Now if I want to do the odd race (hire a race prepared kart from a guy who sells stuff at the track) then I'd have to go sit my ARKS again. No way will I do that for the odd race, it's just too expensive. One of the ARKS testers (used to race my Dad in 210s) was furious that my Dad had to re-sit his ARKS as he hadn't kept it up to date that he did the test for him :p.

Non MSA karting is becoming big up this way, it says something when there are more rounds than MSA rounds. Two MSA rounds dropped off the calendar this year at my local track in favour of 2 extra non MSA. MSA are showing there displeasure at non MSA racing but it's about time they woke up and realised why people are more interested in non MSA racing.

The biggest reason for this? The costs. MSA are just greedy when it comes down to it. The entry fees are expensive to pay the clerk of the course and the ARKS test is expensive considering what a load of bull it is, if you fail that you don't deserve to live! I remember when I stared racing entries were like £30 then 3 seasons later it was £45-50.

I wouldn't put it past clubs to abandon MSA racing, up here anyway. It will be a shame but it might make the MSA get there act together and realise they need to do more to help lower the costs. The thing I hated with the MSA is it's about about £ssss. I had a brand new set of JAG wets and then they changed it so the tyres had a different tag making mine illegal. I was furious, so I sanded the writing off. None of the stweards ever questioned the legaility of my tyres, shows how "different" they were and they were even tested with one of them things for checking how soft the rubber is.

[Sensekhmet]

Money was always extremely tight and loomed over everything like a dark cloud...

Oh yes... I race in amateur rallies with a stock junker car. First a 1988 1100cc Renault 5 (dear god, what a heap that was; rest in pieces... I've did some remodelling to the roof while rallying) and now a 1986 1400cc Renault 5. All I did was the bare bones stuff (better steering wheel, seat, revalved shocks), there's still a lot to do, the gearbox will die on me any minute, the car biodegrades itself, etc. not to mention performance mods... like a real bucket seat, racing harness, tires, real sport suspension... I make some cash as a motorsport marshal but other than that I have to beg my parents for money.
Still...
There's NOTHING that compares to racing for real. Nothing. No sim even touches it. Yes, I sometimes hang my head when I see all those cars so much faster than mine but I still love it. Truly, nothing beats that feeling you get when someone better than you takes the wheel of your "slow, useless rustbucket" and beats your time on a 1:20s stage by 8 seconds... For me, it's taking part, not winning that counts. Sure, I'd like to win one day but for now, I'm just happy finishing at the back of the pack and analysing my errors, ways to drive faster etc.

[goode400]

I'm not interested in real racing at all. I don't watch it on TV and I drive a crappy old Peugeot 205 even though I could afford something much better. I'm sure real racing is great fun but look at the down sides:

RL / LFS

huge expense / cheap as chips
race car storage / only takes up hard drive and desk space
race car transport / it's in my living room!
maintenance / no maintenance
red tape and beurocracy / no red tap and beurocracy
danger / totally safe however fast you go!
repair bills / a new wheel from time to time
restricted race time / race any time
advantage to rich folk / money can't buy you a faster fox!

I'm sure there are loads of petrol heads who'll disagree, but I think sim racing beats real racing hands down.

[nihil]

advantage to rich folk / money can't buy you a faster fox!


Ah... but it can buy you better hardware - just think about me trying to find a way through turn one with about 12 frames per second to work with.... My race strategy is pretty much limited to allowing the field to thin out before I start racing serioously.

[Niels Heusinkveld]

As tempting as it is, if I could have an hour worth of real circuit racing, I wouldn't choose an F1 car. As amazing as it is, you'd never get anywhere near any sort of real limit. The engine will probably be 'capped' at lowish revs (for your own good mind.) and it'll be very painfull / scary.

The idea of driving a FFord1600 on hardish tyres sounds far more appealing. Not so physical, not so much power, no aero.. Perhaps there might be a few moments where I'd think I'm driving the car instead of it driving me.. :)

[ajp71]

Before sims your average Joe would have to maybe look into karting to get his or hers driving and racing fix. However now Joe Bloggs can immerse themselves into the world of sim racing a lot easier and not even think about karting.


I think you'll find a large number of karters are moving to club racing, which rather oddly offers considerably faster machinery on proper tracks for considerably less than a season karting. Yes buying a car is more expensive but once you've got it the costs are tiny. Take for example Lo Cost racing a second hand car for £4000 and then possibly a set of tires a season, it does far more than one kart will ever do, you can race it in a mixture of sprint/endurance races in single make of variety races.

Take my Dad's Morgan as an extreme example, hasn't had an engine rebuild for 19 years, no real major work done to it in that time except for 2 axle rebuilds and a front stub axle failure, which took a corner off it, it's still a usable road car and is competitive in class. But the ethos of both the Morgans and single seater drivers is very different from what I've gathered karting is like, basically they're all out to have a good time it's a social activity people are friendly help each other out and just want to have an enjoyable Sunday. Those that are hell bent on winning normally stick out like a sore thumb and don't stay around too long either.

[Sensekhmet]

I think sim racing beats real racing hands down.


HELL NO. I was thinking the same until I tried it. And what do you mean by 'crappy Pug 205'? I've started out on a wreck of a 45hp crappy Renault 5 and enjoyed every second of it.

Of course, not everyone is made for racing. For example I see nothing interesting in, say, mountain biking or extreme sports. Some people make the mistake of spending cash on prepping the car and then finding they don't enjoy the sport at all. This is why it is wise to use a crappy/stock car for the first event or a couple of them.

[DrDNA]

I came across an article in Evo mag (quite old issue) a few months back while flipping through that highlights an all-inclusive Caterham racing series called the Caterham Academy, created for those with zero racing experience and 16,500 GBP to spend. That'll buy you a road-going Seven to keep and sponsors to pay for the cost of gaining a race license as well as covering the race entry fees for each of the 8 events. It's designed solely for those who've never held a racing license in order to keep the playing field level.

That's a hefty sum indeed, but you do get to keep your car at the end of the season. Personally, I hope to get involved in racing of some sort some day and I think I'll probably end up going to one of those 3-day racing school courses that allow you to test your skills in a variety of machines. While I don't think sim racing translates into real driving as easily as some think, if you spend enough time with it then a lot of things will come more quickly and easily should you end up with the opportunity to race irl.

One option that I leave on the table is that of going into northern Alberta and working in the oil fields for a couple of years. The hours are long, the work is hard (if you're a noob) but the money is rediculous. I know a lot of guys that've gone that route and it's tempting to work hard for a year of my life and come home loaded. Last summer I met a guy that had just bought a brand new $65,000 truck, fully-loaded, at 19-years old. And that wasn't even half a year of working. If I could excel there then money really wouldn't be a problem :).

I'd just like to add that, even though the chances of getting into a top-level racing series drops sharply once you pass a certain age and have little or no previous racing experience, if you excel in an amateur series and gain enough attention then your options should definitely open up.

[anttt69]

The idea of driving a FFord1600 on hardish tyres sounds far more appealing. Not so physical, not so much power, no aero.. Perhaps there might be a few moments where I'd think I'm driving the car instead of it driving me.. :)

I've done exactly that at a sprint in my dad's FF, apart from the car driving me part.

[anttt69]

One option that I leave on the table is that of going into northern Alberta and working in the oil fields for a couple of years. The hours are long, the work is hard (if you're a noob) but the money is rediculous.



Really, with what company?, & where in Alberta can you earn that kind of money?

[Infiniti]

Well I'd consider myself still somewhat young at age 17. And this year, I just started racing a daily driver. Since there really isn't any karting here, there is autocross and dirt oval to choose from. So, I do autocross, also there is rallycross, but I only have street tires I don't want to mess up. My first race back in March went really well. I beat a couple suburus, and ended up 5th out of the 14 in sts class. With 93 entrients that day. I have a feeling I found a new skill. My mom pointed out another expensive hobby I found :shrug:. LFS probably helped my addiction towards motorsports. I'll probably pay $200-$500 a year in gas, and tires.

[Alan Dove]

, which rather oddly offers considerably faster machinery

Considerably fast machinery???? eh????

http://www.karting1.co.uk/news/?p=126

skip the first couple they are bandits.... but name me one car that would be considerably quicker than those beasts!

[96 GTS]

Considerably fast machinery???? eh????

http://www.karting1.co.uk/news/?p=126

skip the first couple they are bandits.... but name me one car that would be considerably quicker than those beasts!
It's starting to become apparent that you don't want a discussion, you just want to repeat yourself over and over again.

For the record, nothing comes close to karting for me, I've only ever raced rental karts, but I've raced them on real kart tracks, not amusement parks. There's no substitute for it.

This being said, LFS has cost me a little under $200, and has provided me many hundreds of hours of enjoyment. I couldn't afford a kart, and the nearest kart track is somewhere on the order of 60 miles away, hardly an impulse decision. So for me, it's no choosing LFS over the real thing, I'd love the real thing. I'm choosing LFS over nothing at all.

[tailing]

I've always wanted to do some form of racing but the costs have always been the thing holding me back. LFS was more of a substitute rather than any real reason not to race for real. I do think sims probably make it easier for some to forego racing.
These days though I'm more into bikes and if I ever do any sort of racing it will be on a bike, cars just don't compare.

[Gentlefoot]

These days though I'm more into bikes and if I ever do any sort of racing it will be on a bike, cars just don't compare.


What's always confused me is how bike racers get on the things without crushing their massive cahunas. :)

[tailing]

Hehe yeah if/when the time comes I might find out that mine aren't quite big enough lol
I got to do some laps at the local race track on my 250 when doing one of the license courses and even on something so small and gutless it was just an absolute blast. I think because you are more exposed and more active with the weight shifting and manhandling the bike, even on a small bike it just raises the enjoyment level. Race bikes also seem to be fairly cheap, haven't looked into it a great deal but I think you could do some local racing without hurting the back pocket much at all.
Argh, just talking about it is getting me going, planning on a good ride through some twisty roads tomorrow which should help the hunger pangs :p

[Gentlefoot]

Hehe yeah if/when the time comes I might find out that mine aren't quite big enough lol
I got to do some laps at the local race track on my 250 when doing one of the license courses and even on something so small and gutless it was just an absolute blast. I think because you are more exposed and more active with the weight shifting and manhandling the bike, even on a small bike it just raises the enjoyment level. Race bikes also seem to be fairly cheap, haven't looked into it a great deal but I think you could do some local racing without hurting the back pocket much at all.
Argh, just talking about it is getting me going, planning on a good ride through some twisty roads tomorrow which should help the hunger pangs :p

Did a few laps round the ring on my gixer 600. I've never seen such mental lean angles until I tried to follow some fella on a 998R over a blind crest at about 80mph.

Great fun though and probably safer than riding on the road if you're relatively sensible.

[chrinkler]

no way to compare a 10k or more bucks/year cart sports which takes hours doing a session including commuting and stuff, with a game residing in my livingroom which can be replaced with a game of go or chess in a minute.

[ajp71]

Considerably fast machinery???? eh????

http://www.karting1.co.uk/news/?p=126

skip the first couple they are bandits.... but name me one car that would be considerably quicker than those beasts!

One can pick up a race ready small single seater for about £4000 (competitive ones can be bought for about £10000) for that you can probably get a CVH engined car that isn't going to be front running but will still put in faster lap times than shifter karts round most circuits. The running costs are a lot less, one set of tires a season, brake pads, fuel and fluids plus either a lorry for two cars + spares or a (new) covered trailer for 1 car can be had for £3000 each. I'd of thought you could buy a quicker car for the money of those karts. Where karts excel is low speed stuff (that videos a great example of that) single seaters are very different in that their best area is high speed performance.

I think you could buy some other substantial stuff for the price of those karts, plenty of TVR Tuscans from the one make series are lying around in the ads, about the cheapest way to 200mph and a genuinely quick car in full race trim that'll set you back about £12000 and will still have much smaller running costs than a kart.

[Alan Dove]

In Vroom (International Karting Magazine) they have tested an ICC up against an F3000 at a large kart circuit.... Have a guess which one came out on top???? :)

An ICC also beat a group B rally car too!!!! lololol

[nikimere]

Don't forget up until the early to mid 90's a 250 Kart was quicker than an F1 car around Silverstone. That says it all really :) Those things are crazy fast!
I remember reading an interview with David Coulthard, he was talking about the day he drove one around Silverstone, he said he'd never do it again, it scared the sh1t outta him! :D

[ajp71]

In Vroom (International Karting Magazine) they have tested an ICC up against an F3000 at a large kart circuit.... Have a guess which one came out on top???? :)

Round a kart circuit yes a kart will be quicker than just about anything but you're deliberatley missing the point, if you' reckon a kart is faster than a Group B/F3000 car on anything other than a ridiculously tight and twisty track that they can hardly fit on then you need your head checking. The point of this thread was asking whether people were moving from karting to sim racing, I made a valid point that some maybe moving to circuit racing because it offers faster cars for less money and with a better social side because of the less aggressive atmosphere (look at the number of appeals in Motorsports Now over the number of karters that get in fights). Karting appears to me to be full of people hell bent at becoming professional racers at any cost whereas club racing tends to be people who have accepted they're not the next Senna and just want to have some fun.

Regardless of what you think there will be people who choose club racing over karting for the reasons I've said, including Tristan IIRC ;)

[tristancliffe]

Yup. I thought about karting, but for reasons of cost I'll be doing a season of club racing in an F3 car.

[ajp71]

Don't forget up until the early to mid 90's a 250 Kart was quicker than an F1 car around Silverstone. That says it all really :) Those things are crazy fast!

Sorry but that is complete bullshit, those were the karts I was comparing laptimes against Formula 4 laptimes with and Cadwell Park was about the only track they were much faster at, most were about the same and fast tracks like Mallory the F4 cars were a lot quicker.

I remember somewhere that the top speed of the 250 karts being quoted as 135mph, given the fact that Keke Rosberg did the fastest lap in F1 history round Silverstone in 1985 averaging 160mph I somewhat doubt the kart would have been faster, most likely it was someone joking that they lapped the club circuit at the same speed as the GP cars did the full track.

The other stupid claim that I found rather amusing was that Eddie Irvine claimed he drove his Formula Ford round Silverstone faster than Jim Clark did in the Lotus 49, absolute bullshit seeing as there's no way he could have driven his Formula Ford that fast or round the same track seeing as Jim Clark drove a completely different circuit :doh:

Having said that though I think gearbox karts are a far more appealing proposition than conventional karts, sure you could run one for a lot less than the little putt putt things people spend ridiculous amounts of money on and you do get similar speed for similar money to club racing. Does anyone actually follow (as in go to meets) for these kind of karts, what are the budgets really like?

[nikimere]

I remember somewhere that the top speed of the 250 karts being quoted as 135mph

ha ha ha!! Considering i have personally seen them clocked at 150MPH (actually 148 but we'll round it off) and i have heard of them getting up to 170MPH on places like Magny-Cours etc..

[ajp71]

ha ha ha!! Considering i have personally seen them clocked at 150MPH (actually 148 but we'll round it off) and i have heard of them getting up to 170MPH on places like Magny-Cours etc..

Looking on the British Superkarts website the fastest time for Mallory seemed to be 52.9 seconds, not very fast TBH, the race report gave no hint of bad conditions for this lap and I chose Mallory because the layout hasn't changed making old records valid.

So why are the British Superkarts 2 seconds a lap slower than Formula Vee, 4 seconds a lap slower than bike engined kit cars, 8 seconds a lap slower than F4 and 23 seconds a lap slower than a 93 F3000 car (still slower than an F1 car ;)) round Mallory Park (which isn't as fast as the old Silverstone)?

http://www.superkart.org.uk/
http://www.750mc.co.uk/
http://www.bmrc.co.uk/championships/bo960826.htm

Sure a few superkarts may be slightly faster but there is absolutely no way that they're going to keep up with any post '66 F1 car round anything other than a kart track. They're fast for what they are but they're not that fast.

[Alan Dove]

a 250 superkart twin was clocked at 0-60mph in....


1.9 seconds!

[ajp71]

a 250 superkart twin was clocked at 0-60mph in....


1.9 seconds!

Why does it say 3.5 seconds on the front of the Superkart.org.uk site then?

I think this probably sums it up nicely:



Sc'use me mister how fast is that?
Superkarts are quick, there is no getting away from that, but in my humble opinion, not as quick (in a straight line) as many people will tell you. Most superkarts due to the nature of UK circuits are geared for between 120-150mph depending on venue.
If you have ridden motorcycles then you will be quite used to the acceleration and speed, a good 250 single feels on par with a modern 250 production 250 2 stroke road bike or 400 4 stroke. The twin cylinder karts feel like a 600cc supersport bike of a couple of years ago in performance. That's just my seat of the pants opinion.

My real point is not about Superkarts which by the sounds of it have more in common with club racing than the ultra competitive kart classes, which spend more money going a lot slower.

[jaws99]

I'm looking into getting my own kart. It's 10 times better than sim racing but the cost of karting really puts people off. I'm quite a good karter and according to kart owners i definately have the talent to go onto racing my own kart but the money is such a problem. a season at mid level karting costs about £50,000 which my family just can't afford to dish out. It's a shame that motorsport relies on money so much as many decent drivers just don't have the funds to go on to better things.

[Gentlefoot]

I'm looking into getting my own kart. It's 10 times better than sim racing but the cost of karting really puts people off. I'm quite a good karter and according to kart owners i definately have the talent to go onto racing my own kart but the money is such a problem. a season at mid level karting costs about £50,000 which my family just can't afford to dish out. It's a shame that motorsport relies on money so much as many decent drivers just don't have the funds to go on to better things.

Finding a way to pay is one of the challenges of motorsport. How much do you want it mate??

[Viper93]

I'm looking into getting my own kart. It's 10 times better than sim racing but the cost of karting really puts people off. I'm quite a good karter and according to kart owners i definately have the talent to go onto racing my own kart but the money is such a problem. a season at mid level karting costs about £50,000 which my family just can't afford to dish out. It's a shame that motorsport relies on money so much as many decent drivers just don't have the funds to go on to better things.

This just isn't racing, sadly it's how most things in life work that alot of people want to have or do... Cost is the huge reason why Sim Racing appeals to me so much.

[jaws99]

Finding a way to pay is one of the challenges of motorsport. How much do you want it mate??


I want it more than anything mate believe me

[Alan Dove]

I'm looking into getting my own kart. It's 10 times better than sim racing but the cost of karting really puts people off. I'm quite a good karter and according to kart owners i definately have the talent to go onto racing my own kart but the money is such a problem. a season at mid level karting costs about £50,000 which my family just can't afford to dish out. It's a shame that motorsport relies on money so much as many decent drivers just don't have the funds to go on to better things.

50,000 IS MADNESS... someone has lied to you.... you can do a club race weekend, and that includes 6-8 x10 min practise sessions, and 3 heats and a final.. for about 200 a weekend......You would find it VERY VERY hard to spend more than 10,000 for a season of club karting

OK let's leave the last word to AYRTON SENNA who described that KARTING was the CLOSEST thing in terms of reaction times, feel of speed, and fun to FORMULA 1.... i for one.... will not argue with HIM!!!

[Hog700]

Until someone makes a proper banger racing sim I guess I'll have to stick with the real thing, along with the stiff neck, bruises, shitting your pants and the huge adrenaline rush that goes with blitzing or being blitzed......:thumb:

[theirishnoob]

i think this game is for people ( like myself ) how never got there turn at some real circuit racing , or people who do it and are fans , so don't worry , this game don't take away from peoples driving skills, tho it shows the lack of some members eh "talent" :nod:

*replying to first thread*

also whats all this talk of karts and that crap , just buy an old car ( e.g bmw series 1988-1992 for 500-1000 ) when find a circuit club to join theres plenty around even here , after all if not like your gonna be a semi pro where it Will cost 50,000 + even then thats where sponsors come in

[ajp71]

also whats all this talk of karts and that crap , just buy an old car ( e.g bmw series 1988-1992 for 500-1000 ) when find a circuit club to join theres plenty around even here , after all if not like your gonna be a semi pro where it Will cost 50,000 + even then thats where sponsors come in

I think £500 is a rather optimistic budget for buying and preparing an old Beamer ;)

There was that story from the Willhire 24 hours (the reincarnation of the race last year @ Silverstone) of a group of Germans who drove in an old Merc to Silverstone raced in comfort for 24 hours then trundled off home :D

[ayrton senna 87]

sims, to me, are a brilliant training ground for real racing...

for example, i would go out racin at the weekend, and find a weakness i had. id then work on this weakness in LFS, low and behold, next time i went racing the weakness was gone.

karting is an expensive game, but if u spend the money correctly it need not be too bad. recently i did a round of the national tkm super 1 champs and beat 2 of last years british champs, one of them spent £8000 that weekend. i have only done 10 races in my whole 'career' and alot of them do that in 3 months.

LFS is a brilliant sim and can teach u so much about real life, to me it is a great substiute for when im not at the kart track.

u only need to look at the LFS karting events where EVERYONE was well above average time and race craft wise to realise, LFS does help in real life, and is a good alternative if u cant race for real!!!!

[Alan Dove]

OK anyone who thinks karts are pants

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/karting/video/x1ejop_karting-vs-viper

LOL... my kart is faster than those! :)

[Hyperactive]

OK anyone who thinks karts are pants

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/karting/video/x1ejop_karting-vs-viper

LOL... my kart is faster than those! :)

On the other hand, an RC car accelerates even faster ;)

[Mykl]

I plan on going club racing some day. I'm currently building up my skill and experience for the day that I decide to buy a real race car.

That said, I would never choose any simulator over an actual track day. What a silly idea.

[DrDNA]

Really, with what company?, & where in Alberta can you earn that kind of money?

I don't know of any specific companies off-hand, but it's well-known in Western Canada that Alberta is absolutely booming right now with no end in sight. All kinds of businesses are having trouble finding employees, so wages are going through the roof.

An older (50 years-old) guy who's a friend of my boss and worked for our company at another location recently went looking for a new job at one of these oil patch sites and now drives a gravel truck for $2,000/week. It's an extremely monotonous job, but that's why he makes so much. If the money isn't silly then people don't stick around.

But yeah...OT.