Night time/wet racing or Changable weather

[drift_apprentice]

If it is not too hard to program, maybe in the weather selection area for the tracks where u can select Bright, Cloudy etc, there is an option for Light Rain, Heavy Rain and Storm?? that will be cool, coz with the water on track it will make racing more fun. The reflections, and water sprays will be an extra eye candy. With lightning and thunder going every now and then, it will be cool! Also, if the rain gets heavier or lighter or even stops for a while during the race it will be cool too, coz that will change ur tyre choice and driving style, dry patchs/racing line will appear. This will add a bit more realism espeically to endurance races.

Also, maybe we can choose to race at Night as well as Bright, Cloudy, Dusk etc. And if there is a real time change or accelerated time from day to night, it will be nice too.

[XCNuse]

we know.. there most likely will be weather in S3..

this has come up thousands of times before (im sure before S1 too)

[al heeley]

Do we know that, XCN? Has this been confirmed by the LFS three? Or has it travelled from the land of "Oh that would be so cool we all really want this" to the place of "Yeah, S3 will have dynamic weather"?

(It really would be most cool)

[XCNuse]

i have to go along with vendettas' discovery here :)

that and we do have .. did .. have rain tires :( (or does MRT still have rain tires?)

http://forum.rscnet.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=252119&d=1102303950

lol and apparently tristan knows where scawen said it :)

we already have, and Scawen already has. That's why it's planned for S3.

:tilt:(now how he found that.. lets see :p)

[bobvanvliet]

If it is not too hard to program.
Whoah, are you mistaken there. :really:

Dynamic wheather will probably be one of the hardest things Scawen has ever had to implement, I think.

[vpr01]

i dont agree with that. independant dynamic weather code cant be that hard to write or implement.

[tristancliffe]

That bits relatively easy. But making the cars react to it (aquaplaning, more grip offline etc), and change the surface (drying lines) is the very very hard bit. Also, the graphics engine may or may not need an overhaul. As well as setups (do we have wet/dry settings in each setup, or just double or triple the setups in one list?). Server options to make them implementable, in a fiar way.

Then checking for bugs. Then reducing the processor/graphics hit for all these improvements...

[X-Ter]

I have no idea about how much programming that needs to be done to implement this sort of thing, but I do know that I would really like to see it :)
Most important to me is day to night transitions, since this would ad a lot of feeling to 12 and 24 hour endurance races. This even exists in SCGT these day (with clever use of animations) so I guess it's not as hard to do as dynamic weather.
Having dynamic weather and all that comes with it would indeed add to the feeling of this sim. The possibilities are endless if one had to race in a constant spray from the cars in front, suffer from malfunctioning windshield wipers, always trying to drive in the "dry line" and so on. But... Day to night first please :)

[vpr01]

it would definately add more variation to the game. i didnt think about how it would affect the cars handling, which i can see being a little harder. i dont think the graphics engine would need much of an overhaul. just some additions, like rain drops, windscreen splashes and reflective road surfaces for when its wet. oh and working window wipers in cockpit view and 3rd person view!

[drift_apprentice]

Yes the graphics engine will need LOTS of improvement **IF** we really want a good visual effects like track reflection, spray, w/screen splatter etc. But I dont wanna see too much effort been put in that area coz it will turn into an arcadish driving sim, eg. NFS Underground -> all looks, little realistic handling. Just some simple indication of rain drops will be fine, and the sky gets very dark and cloudy etc. Spray can be just the standard white smoke effect all the time. Keep track reflection simple i guess. Oh, glowing brake discs in the rain will be ultra cool though!

Grand Prix 3 and 4 had changable weather, and dry patchs, so I dont think it is too hard to program. The drying racing line will be a bit hard but not that hard, just pre-program the racing line on the track with more grip values after the rain stops for x amount of time. And then always double or triple the grip values on the line than the overall grip values of the whole track as the track gets drier. You programers may know what I mean...

Day/night time transition wise, i am not sure. LeMan 24hr has that feature. Lighting, sky, animation, shadow wise, I think it once again comes to graphics overhaul. Just keep the effects simple, effective is the key i guess. But, i do realise that LFS does not utilise ur Video card capabilities much, maybe in S3, it should use some Direct X features for time transition and wet racing effects?

Setup wise, it does get more complex. But face it, setups have to suit different situations, we dont wanna use slicks in the wet with stiff suspension and stupid brake force/bias rite?? I remember in British Touring Car series, they always face rain/sun changes, and always gambles by using semi wets or full wets when the track is drying but more rain is still coming etc. U know what I mean, this is what we need to put in S3, more intense racing atomosphere by incorporating realistic elements in life, not too much eye candies.

[tristancliffe]

The drying racing line will be a bit hard but not that hard, just pre-program the racing line on the track with more grip values after the rain stops for x amount of time. And then always double or triple the grip values on the line than the overall grip values of the whole track as the track gets drier. You programers may know what I mean...

I hope that it isn't done on a preprogrammed line! I think it should be a bit like the 'line' we have now, i.e. varies depending on what lines are actually driven. Of course, for something like drying track, marbles, dirt on track etc this needs to be a server side 'line', as otherwise each person will have a different dry line, which would cause some weird racing and local updates when lagging.

[AndroidXP]

Well, we already have a dynamic rubber line with varying degrees of rubber intensity, so I doubt it would be hard to implement a dynamic grip level around that line. What's really hard is all the different tyre behaviour in a wet environment, like aquaplaning. Also the puddle generation Scawen surely would implement isn't a 5 minute program job.

And all this is leaving out the graphics updates needed additionally...

[tristancliffe]

Well, we already have a dynamic rubber line with varying degrees of rubber intensity, so I doubt it would be hard to implement a dynamic grip level around that line. What's really hard is all the different tyre behaviour in a wet environment, like aquaplaning. Also the puddle generation Scawen surely would implement isn't a 5 minute program job.

And all this is leaving out the graphics updates needed additionally...

But the line we have at the moment is local, i.e. yours can be different to mine, and it makes no difference to either of us.

However, if the line causes more/less grip (dirt, rubber lay, drying lines, puddles etc) then we all need to have the same 'line', i.e. it must be a server side thing, not a local thing!

[AndroidXP]

Well, it shouldn't be too hard to maintain a serverside line either...

[drift_apprentice]

of course there is only 1 perfect racing line. If u go away from it u will slow down, so i think it can be done on the server side.

[Cue-Ball]

Personally, I don't see why so many people are clamoring for night racing and rain. I'd venture to say that most people have trouble keeping their car on the track for 10 laps in the dry. I sure as hell don't want to race these folks at night in the rain. A race would never get finished.

I would much rather see the devs spend their time tweaking the tire/grip model, adding support for solid rear axles, putting in more tire compounds, adding cars, adding tracks, improving the in-game sound, and about a million other things.

Even if rain/night were put into the game, I probably would never use these options because they just wouldn't be as fun as racing in the dry.

[speedfreak227]

i think cue-ball hit the nail on the head.

without actually "feeling" the g-forces of the race car it's tough to know how much grip you actually have. i've done a LOT of kart racing in the rain and love it, but in a video game you can't "feel" with the seat of your pants the same way.

if you want to simulate rain just put knobby tires on for a lap or two.

speedfreak227

[Vain]

The cool thing about rain is that it's a challange that everyone on the track has to compete with. It's about who adapts the best to the new situation.
Also, and this is important, there are people who can drive better on wet tracks than others. Someone who lost 0,2 secs per round on the leader when it was dry can now be 0,5 secs faster and all viewers and drivers will have a race full of tension.

Vain

[keiran]

For S3 I would love to see changable weather and night racing. For me changable weather has never been implemented properly in a game since Grand Prix 4. I've had a shot of rFactor and running a long race starting off at day and gradually going dark is great fun and adds a bit more atmosphere to long endurance races. The weather side would add so much to races with the chance of it starting to rain.

Keiran

[ajp71]

...and the point in this poll?

[wheel4hummer]

There isnt any implementation of wet surfaces yet, but it will be just as hard to program as dirt tires were.

[96 GTS]

But the line we have at the moment is local, i.e. yours can be different to mine, and it makes no difference to either of us.

However, if the line causes more/less grip (dirt, rubber lay, drying lines, puddles etc) then we all need to have the same 'line', i.e. it must be a server side thing, not a local thing!
We do have a dynamic line? I've never noticed it lol, is it visual only or does it actually affect grip?? Hooray for being out of the loop :D

[AndroidXP]

Visual only at the moment.

[tristancliffe]

You have to turn on "Update Path" to user or all cars in Options->Misc, then the line gets darker the more you drive on it.

[ajp71]

There isnt any implementation of wet surfaces yet, but it will be just as hard to program as dirt tires were.

I doubt it, the dirt tires are a rather inaccurate way to get some idea of the penalty for getting wheels on the dirt, if the wet tire grip is implmented it will have to be a lot more detailed.

[nikimere]

i think cue-ball hit the nail on the head.

without actually "feeling" the g-forces of the race car it's tough to know how much grip you actually have. i've done a LOT of kart racing in the rain and love it, but in a video game you can't "feel" with the seat of your pants the same way.

if you want to simulate rain just put knobby tires on for a lap or two.

speedfreak227

it will be the same as in the dry, you will use your hearing to hear loss of grip. you will use your sense of sight to see the car sliding and if your lucky enough to have a FFB wheel you'll use your sense of feeling.
It's not as good as real life but u dont think it will be a problem at all.

I think the 'rain' feature will only be used if its all generated dynamically and there is no 'pre-defined' variables for grip levels of spray levels and so on...

[speedfreak227]

it will be the same as in the dry, you will use your hearing to hear loss of grip. you will use your sense of sight to see the car sliding and if your lucky enough to have a FFB wheel you'll use your sense of feeling.
It's not as good as real life but u dont think it will be a problem at all.

I think the 'rain' feature will only be used if its all generated dynamically and there is no 'pre-defined' variables for grip levels of spray levels and so on...

a locked up tire in teh wet doesn't "squeel". that's the biggest problem.

speedfreak227

[Vendetta]

It would be awesome if the weather forecast was generated from where the server is located.

[budabudabass]

It would be awesome if the weather forecast was generated from where the server is located.

Hmmm..... nice idea. But it would be a bit crap for all the servers located in England. We'd get maybe 2 good racing days a year.

[Mikjen]

You know in blackwood, after the 4th turn, were the guy in the racing outfit is stood, watching the race, Just give him a umbrella, then we`ll know its raining :(

Mick

[wheel4hummer]

My wet sounds.

[Rotary]

Randomn lightning strikes! :D

I've played a few games with dynamic weather, creates so much more atmosphere and realism. Operation Flashpoint was brillant for it - you could be fightning under a clear sky and a few minutes later a storm comes and you could even see/hear the rain approach provided wind blew it your way of course. It even works on real time with a 24 hour cycle, had some pretty decent sunrise/sunset lighting as well and the fog was quite convincing.

[tristancliffe]

I must get Operation Flashpoint again!

[flymike91]

The random weather model for microsoft flight simulator would be a good place for the devs to start programming weather and time into the game. If you fly a few hours, the time and lighting will change. Also, the weather will change randomly (but slowly) from clear to cold fronts to rain.. Obviously this would be good for a new patch or S3. The program for the weather isn't actually all that big.

[shiny_red_cobra]

The program for the weather isn't actually all that big.

I beg to differ.

Just because something sounds simple in theory, it is not always so in practice. It could take a thousand lines of code to implement weather.

By the way, since you're browsing through old threads, you should know that this topic has been discussed to death already. There's really nothing more to add.

[bass4usall]

Unless you have cars outfitted with killer headlights, or the tracks are well lit, I think night racing isn't a good idea.

Even now with the drive dusk it's hard to see the track curbs in critical places. There are 2 tracks I won't even go near any more because of the shadows cast by the buildings in SO Classic and the 2nd SO Sprint track. It's too dam dark to see the track. It's like driving in a black screen. Absolutely NO FUN and completely DUMB. Real drivers can see. Even NASCAR lights up the ovals so it's like driving at day time. When I log into a server and find it's "lo-lit" I turn right around and find another server.

So a hearty, big-time NO on the night driving.

As far as weather is concerned, stay with a nice day. Driving in rain sucks in real life, and sucks exponentially more in every sim I've ever run that tries to simulate rain. Simulating rain is like providing ice for the track. Again absolutely NO FUN and completely DUMB.

So another hearty, big-time NO on the weather garbage.

[tristancliffe]

Just because YOU can't cope with low light condition, or don't have the car control to race in the wet doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Like reality, tracks get brighter and darker, wetter and drier. So they should in LFS (one day).

[Dajmin]

As far as I can see, the actual physics of the car handling wouldn't need to be changed. The only change would be decreasing the friction of the track, no? The cars have mass and all the relevant forces, gravity won't change or anything just because it's wet. So that part could (in theory, without the graphics changing to show it) be done already with just some minor code changes.

If you ask me, the hardest part would be varying the friction across parts of the track, which obviously we don't currently have. Dry parts under bridges give more grip than wet parts, etc. Right now it's all 100% dry so no friction changes need to be calculated, nor does the track have to be split into parts (that doesn't mean it's not of course).
And because we want the wind to affect the rain, the wet/dry areas around these obstacles would move and change according to the wind. That's where it gets complicated.

I'm sure it'd be fairly easy to do a rudimentary "Friction -40%" calculation and throw a particle effect over the top of it to look like rain, but that'd be crap and go against everything the simulation stands for.

[AndroidXP]

I agree, decreasing the grip by factor x is very easy to do, but that can hardly be called a rain simulation. Apart from the points you made, you'd also have to include a puddle simulation together with aquaplaning, as well as take into account that (afaik) tyres behave quite differently in wet conditions compared to dry tarmac. By that I mean they actually have differently shaped grip curves, not only a downscaled variant of the dry grip one.

Regarding night and rain in general, I can just quote myself here
Night and rain seem to be the equivalent to "I love the LX cars" we hear about so often. Yeah sure, I'd sure like to see these features and they're pretty likely to be implemented at some point, but it's kinda funny considering how most drivers poop their pants as soon as low wind is activated.Yes, night and rain sound awesome in theory, but I believe almost no servers will be running them. I mean, just look at how often wind or different lightning conditions are used right now. Before CTRA they were practically nonexistent. Night and rain have far worse effects on the racing difficulty, so I cannot really see them being used much after the novelty wears off. (That doesn't mean I don't want the features in the game, though.)

[de Souza]

I agree with you Android, but if we get this "weather from track location thing" maybe we would never drive with clear sky/no wind again? Well, unless this is the conditions at the track location, of course. If the server can choose the weather it wants (the one from location, or any other), then you're probably right.

Honestly I don't know which option I would find better.

[Ilpav]

http://forum.rscnet.org/attachment.p...9&d=1102303950 (http://forum.rscnet.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=252119&d=1102303950)

OH YESSSS!!!! I would love to have wipers on every car that is supposed to have them.

And +1 for this idea. Rain would be cool. If they do make this, they should show raindrops hitting the car (especially on the windshield) and they should make sound effects of rain hitting the car's metal. They should also physically put water on the track so you can see that little spray when the tires are hitting it.

[gwendoline]

It would be awesome if the weather forecast was generated from where the server is located.
+1:thumb::thumb::thumb: