Equal cars for more exciting races. [Archive]

bright devil

12th August 2005, 16:11

-SieN-

12th August 2005, 16:21

Mhh, I don't think it's nescessary to make the XRR faster at the start, but I agree with all other suggestions you mentioned.

DasKlee

12th August 2005, 16:25

Hi, i guess it would be a great thing if the cars were more equal.
This thread is for talking about this thing and for suggestions, what changes are reasonable to reach the aim of equal cars and as a result of this races with mixed up startfields.

I´ll begin with the big GTR´s.
The FZR is faster at the start and at straights if you compare it with the XRR. And the 3rd thing is, that it is possible to get out of mud with the FZR, but not with the XRR. Is this just fair. I guess i don´t have to say any words about the FXR, if he would be a little slower, he could mess with the XFR ... .
I love driving XRR, but if i see, that e.g. on AS National, I´m 1 sec faster with the FZR, it doesn´t make sense to drive my favourite car as it´s just too slow.
The result is, that the whole field drives FZR just because the other cars are to slow, no matter what the favourite car of the racers is.

My suggestion:
Making it possible to get out of mud with the XRR and making it a little faster could solve the problem. And the FXR should get more speed, too, as hes the slowest of the big GTR´s and as he doesn´t have other big advantages.
bd

the GTR class may look like totaly unbalanced, but don't just look at the single lap times - if you run in a 40 or 60 lap race, tire wear and fuel consumption becomes also a huge factor - and here, the XRR is miles ahead of the FZR

i think a few slight adjustments would be great but i wouldn't go that far and call the car unequal

like back at RSC everybody has his own opinion about this and you will neer find solution that suits everyone, but here's how i'd like to have it with the full release

a class system that can also be used for the serverlists (some quicklinks as addition to selecting every single type of car)

TOURING DIVISION 2 (up to 1.8 litres, no turbo)
UF1, XFG, XRG (just give the UF1 15 more Hp and make it lose 30 kilos with a little lower fuel consumption and tire wear)

TOURING DIVISION 1 (the turbo class)
RB4, FXO, XRT (no real changes needed here - maybe a little less tire wear and a little less weight on the RB4)

SPORTSCARS
LX4, LX6, FZ5, RAC (make the LX4 lose 30 kilos and use a little less fuel and tires than right now and it might be a challenger on some tracks)

GT2
XFR, UFR (no real changes needed here, kind of like the turbo class)

GT1
XRR, FZR, FXR (also no big changes needed here - maybe a few more HP on the FXR and a little less weight on the XRR , but the class is not that unbalanced)

MRT5 - single car class

FOX - single car class

FO8 - single car class

bright devil

12th August 2005, 17:14

Sien, i didn´t mean the start but the top speed. I like the way the cars are starting. :9.
DasKlee: But the "problem" ist, that the most races (also in leagues) aren´t long enough so that the XRR´s and FXR´s Advantages could be useful. If you have a 20 main race and mustpit on, it doesn´t make sense that the XRR has advantages in tire wear if the FZR is 1 sec (per lap) faster nevertheless.
But i like your classes and suggestions.
bd

Tillverkad

12th August 2005, 18:37

I think they're good as they are, xrr better in the long runs, especially when it can finish a race whit less pit stops. Just look at Endurance league and the first race top3, xrr,xrr, fzr. And xrr is easier to drive, at least in my opinion.

Fxr is also good choice for long runs, very tire friendly. Haven't tried it yet, but I'd assume it's r2 tires can last about 45min of driving, if you have enough fuel. And it's the most easiest to drive.

I like i that the cars are all very different, so we can see different tactics on longer races, which make it much more interesting than seeing 10 fzrs pitting on the same lap. :) They're not equal, but well balanced.

Alex-Ger

12th August 2005, 19:14

Especially Aston National for example the xxr isn't ttat much in advantage for longer turns. I've already seen races where a FZR drove 1.43 every lap oder a 45 laps distance , he had to do one pit stop more thats true but he was able to gain the time for it on track, the fastest xrr just drove 1.44 so the fzr wins a second per round.

Regarding the FXR, i like this one for real but he is simply to slow The FXR is the best starter, starts even better than the FZR but this is senseless for longer races therefore the gap to the other GTR's is to hugh.

The FXR has a loss of 10 km per hour on the long straight at Aston National against FZR and XRR this is simply to much.

And the XRR ist more tire friendly than the FXR, just try it, you have to push even more if you want to be fast with the FXR so you're ruining the tires much faster than the XRR!

XCNuse

12th August 2005, 21:46

quite honestly.. i think it should be that the FXR shouldn't be able to get out of the sand traps. with all cars.. (well besides rally cars duh), its impossible to get out of the sand traps, thats what they made them for... so you slow down and cant move so you dont slam into barriers

i think right now the GTR's are quite close, especially in endurance (not so much short), mainly because the FZR eats up gas like a hog with its whole 12k rpm, whereas the turbos dont eat up as much.. but are a tad slower (FXR atleast from its weight)

in the short run.. with many turns, the FXR is the champ, but on short runs with few turns.. FZR is champ because of its great speed.. so.. personally, i think the FXR should just loose some of that weight

current thing im trying to solve; if FXR is AWD.. meaning it accelerates and turns faster, why is it that even on U turns, that the FZR and XRR fly out of the turns.. shouldn't it be the FXR that.. so im guessing that its just that much heavier

Gimpster

13th August 2005, 00:11

I do not know why every one still thinks the FZR is the car to beat. While it is true that is is a litte faster on the hotlap charts is is a much more diffacult car to drive ont he edge. Touching the grass in a corner or under breaking and its all over, not to mention it can't run R2s for more then a few laps befor they are melting. The FZR has the same HP, Less Torque and a peak power 2k RPMs higher then the other cars yet uses 20% more fuel. It weighs the same but eats tires at 150% the rate of the other cars. The only situation where the FZR has an advantage is in a short race on an open track & on the hot lap charts. In every situation its has more disadvantages then the other cars.

The NAL, ESL and other leagues are starting to prove that the FZR is not all that great, but it is competitive. The XRR is the base line as the XRT was before it. The FXO is just like the RB4 and is a little low on power but once we have varying weather it will come in to its own and trash the other cars. Scawen has always maintained that the classes were being ballanced fr longer races not sprints. I think the FZR is easier to drive well with int he performance envelope, but once you start approaching the edge the other two are easier to handel. If that was not the case the top drivers in the leagues would all be driving it, but they are not. They are in the XRR.

Takumi_Project.d

13th August 2005, 05:03

quite honestly.. i think it should be that the FXR shouldn't be able to get out of the sand traps. with all cars.. (well besides rally cars duh), its impossible to get out of the sand traps, thats what they made them for... so you slow down and cant move so you dont slam into barriers

True the sand traps aren't as savage as real life, but i reckon their current form is pretty good. However i am confused why you think the FXR shouldnt be able to get out? It's the only 4wd GTR car, if anything it should get out of the traps the fastest. Considering how much slower it laps than the other RWD GTRs - i reckon the FZR and XRR should take alot longer to get out than the FXR. :)

if FXR is AWD.. meaning it accelerates and turns faster, why is it that even on U turns, that the FZR and XRR fly out of the turns.. shouldn't it be the FXR that.. so im guessing that its just that much heavier

it seems to have quite a laggy turbo also.

Alex-Ger

13th August 2005, 17:31

http://www.esl-europe.net/eu/lfs/ESCC/season1/results/

I guess the esl just shows that the FZR is the car to beat! Maybe the distances aren't long enough but show me a XRR winning in ESCC.

All we see here is that most of the competitors decide for FZR after testing both cars. And its possible to drive more than an few laps with the FZR on R2, thats for sure.

Tillverkad

13th August 2005, 18:16

Yes, but even the main race in escc is quite short actually (about 1 hour), only one pitstop is needed. There's sprint race also, where fzr really shines. So overally fzr is better for the whole race night. (Did I forgot to mention qualifying, where fzr is better?)

I like xrr more, but then noticed I wouldn't have a chance agains fzrs in those quite shortish races. I decided to pick fzr, and it's much much harder to drive, especially when rear tires are at their hottest state, after couple of laps. They will settle down when they wear though.

But when races are about 2h long like in endurance league, they're quite balanced (don't know about the fxr, didn't see one in my div). I was able to finish with only 3 pitstops in my xrr, when some fzr guys had to do 5. The track was Westhill.

Fetzo

16th October 2005, 21:54

i know it's an old thread, but i just want to mention that the fxo again is unbeatable in the TBO-Class.

i hope this will be adjusted.

spankmeyer

18th November 2005, 16:52

Bumbity bumb.

I think I got finally fed up with the FZR superiority in GTR class races. Went online for a couple of hours and witnessed the same old show seen countless times: FZR beats the other two GTRs down like there's no tomorrow.

The patches for S2 Alpha haven't addressed the situation and neither have the Devs shown much interest in fixing the car class balance issues. I fully agree that the Devs needed and deserved a long break, but since S2 Alpha has been out quite a few months already, I think it's safe to say that the situation has only grown worse as the setups and drivers have gotten better.

But why should we care? No-one is forcing me or you to drive an inferior car. Why don't we all drive FZRs and be happy? :) I say it's all about the wonderful thing called diversity.
Different cars make races more dynamic as they don't perform identically, making the game enviroment richer just as custom skins and setups add depth to gameplay. But the problem is, when you are given a choice within a car class, you are basically signing your death-certificate (or should it be lose-certificate :)) if you pick XRR.

Some examples:
Even if I qualify for pole position with XRR, it's next to useless because you will lose at a minimum 2-3 places right in the start and get stuck behind traffic in T1 while the FZRs hit cruise-mode and enjoy the scenery. It's always a catch-up race for XRR drivers. If the drivers are on an equal skill level, there's not much of chance to pass unless the FZR makes a mistake.

(Which sometimes seems like a long shot, as the FZR is easier to drive on the limit - thanks to better engine.)

Of course we could race 20 laps on AS Historic Rev without forced pit stops and watch the FZRs (hopefully) crumble, but that doesn't solve the problem. Every car within a class should have equal chance of winning performance-wise.
Most certainly that won't be possible to perfectly achieve due to differences in track layouts and car designs etc., but I'm completely sure that some balancing adjustments could and should be made in the future.

Long post I must say, sorry if something didn't come out right. I know I left alot of stuff out like the FXR and TBO class too, but hopefully you'll get some universal points out of this.

Peace and see you on the track! :)

AndroidXP

18th November 2005, 17:06

Well, if you're fed up with the imbalance of the GTR class, then *gasp* drive something different then the GTR class. Of course Scawen & Co. do care about this imbalance, but 1) he's still polishing the multilanguage support and 2) physics updates have to be carefully planned and are relatively long drawn out because if such a patch is released, EVERYONE has to update. Not like the testpatches where much stuff can be added without actually making the versions incompatible, thus allowing for much more frequent updates of the "less important stuff".

Class imbalances will be polished, tyre physics will be updated, but frankly, Scawen may be a genius but he's no wizard. Coding needs time, especially if you're the only one doing the hammering.

spankmeyer

18th November 2005, 18:18

I remember in the first "class/car imbalance" discussion at RSC someone made a point that let's wait for a while and see how things turn out (S2A was just released back then). It's been quite obvious that there is a pretty devastating performance advantage on some cars, but I wasn't shouting "NOW! NOW! NOW!" for those fixes, don't worry! :)

I have, and probably will be, racing with GTRs almost exclusively. Mainly because I'm not a fan of open-wheelers and the slow cars just seem so... slow... :D Blasting away with GTRs is like a good solid kick to the crotch! :thumb:

AndroidXP

18th November 2005, 18:32

Ah well, everybody to his own ;)

IMO, you're missing out alot when you limit yourself to the GTR class. Tbh, it was the first thing I started racing regularly, too - but after a while I started experimenting with the other cars and it was way more fun than I expected. Especially the stunt but moreso the rallye driving cured me from the GTR madness and I'm slowly wandering around the other car classes ATM. I will surely start driving the GTR class again, but right now I'm a bit fed up of Aston Nat, maybe if I see a server running a more interesting track I will give 'em a spin again. :rolleyes2

Bob Smith

18th November 2005, 18:53

We know the devs care - it was obviously their original intentions to create car classes (as was also proved with the LX8/UFR switch), and we also had the uprated engine with the XF GTi (although it's now quicker than the XR GT....)

I suspect the devs would look to alter the car specs after the next run of physics updates, as you never know, they alone could close the gap.

I also suspect that drivers play some part in the times, as way more people drive GTi than GT, so on the whole drivers are going to be faster anyway. The GTR divide is more obvious, since the extra drivetrain loss on the FXR causes it to be slower than the XRR, while the FZR's weight distribution improves rear end grip for slow speed acceleration and gives more even weight distribution under braking (and therefore more grip and shorter braking distances). Oh and the lack of turbo lag improves driveability. Oh and the way the aero works means that the FZR can use more downforce too, while the FXR and XRR get limited by the front wing angle.

Slartibartfast

18th November 2005, 19:18

I might be odd, but I've always thought the GTR class is exceptionally well balanced. I think DasKlee nailed it right on the head. IRL different makes are not equal. Strategy and skill make up the differences and LFS allows us to simulate the reality wonderfully. I think the FRR is the megagas to drive, but if I *need* the points, I'll wrestle the FZR. Back when I was kid, the 911s and their breed dominated sports car racing. I always heard what exceptional cars they were from the drivers. I also heard they were absolutely evil to drive at the limit.

I don't know. When I first test the GTR class in LFS, and even now, I think it really lends to multi marque races like no other sim I've tried.

tailing

19th November 2005, 08:56

The FXR doesn't really seem to be competitive but I think the FZR and XRR should be left as they are. The FZR is not always dominant, the XRR is the better choice in certain circumstances, it all depends on so many different factors that they're never going to be equal all the time.

Thorvertonian

19th November 2005, 09:38

SIMPLE ANSWER

If you want equal cars, race the same cars!!!!!

Blowtus

19th November 2005, 09:50

the ufr could do with a little more poke, gets left behind the xfr on anything but the tightest circuits.

johnmcaulay

22nd November 2005, 18:51

I agree with "Slartiblastfast" the GTR class cars are very well balanced. I also don't understand the criticism of the FXR as being un-competitive, if you spend the time and really learn how to expolit its handling and "interesting" performance characteristics you'll realise that overall it is on par with the FZR and the XXR.

To be honest I don't know why anyone would think the FZR is inherently better than either FXR or XXR, it has in my opinion more faults than the FXR. It is perhaps the best for low fuel sprints, but it's instability, fuel and tyre :-) consumption, render it close to disadvantaged in anything longer than a sprint race, which can only be compensated for partly by exceptional driving on every lap, which is all but impossible when doing 20 or more laps.

rant over! :-)

AndroidXP

22nd November 2005, 19:22

I think that the FXR is competitive only in theory. Most people argue with "easy to drive", "good on the tyres" and "low fuel usage", but neither of them does really apply respectively make it keep up with the others.

To be reasonably fast you have to extremely push the car, eating away its tyres and the AWD doesn't really help that either. The low fuel usage is a plus, but is neglected if you're 2 seconds slower per lap than an FZR, causing them to easily make up for the additional pitstop. The XRR is faster, better on tyres and better on fuel usage, so choosing the FXR is kinda pointless.
And being easy to drive is only useful if you race against mediocre drivers who struggle with driving the cars at all. Semi competent drivers mostly have enough car control and feel to drive the FZR without major problems.

The only situation where it really shines is stability under extreme conditions. You can full-throttle that thing over kerbs to no end, without fearing to lose control at any time. But, these situations shouldn't happen too often during racing anyways, should they? ;)

Even the accelleration isn't that great under standard conditions. However, you can redline the engine, bumping on the revlimiter as soon as you're on the grid to spool up as much turbo pressure as possible. This atleast makes the launch not suck. Ugly but effective.

STROBE

22nd November 2005, 22:39

I think the GTR class is pretty evenly balanced on the whole, but could do with some refinement.

When someone said that the FZR is too dominant, that's not always the case. Remember that a lot of the public servers only hold short sprint races of five or six laps, ten at most. Over these distances, the nature of the FZR causes it to be dominant.

Open up the distance, and the FZR's weaknesses show in the form of the rate it gets through consumables. I recall driving FZR in a 10 lap race around AS4 (ok so it's only ten laps but they're long laps), and I was consistently slightly quicker than an XRR. I thought I was easily going to beat him... until I realised my rears were melting, I'd underestimated the sheer quantity of fuel required, and I had to pit while the XRR cruised past with it's ultra-low tyre wear and fuel consumption. It's differences like this that provide some interesting variety in car choices and strategies; however it's rarely noticeable when most public servers do races that last 8 - 15 minutes.

But I do think there are the following problems with the GTR cars, and what would redress the balance a little so we see more than just the FZR...

FZR
Fuel consumption. I recall reading a topic here where the fuel consumption was compared to real life cars on the track, and the general consensus was that it was close enough. But the FZR (and FZ5, I think) came out as having some totally improbable/unrealistic thirst for fuel when compared to other (real) racing cars. Reduce some of the FZR's thirst - not so much that it takes away it's weakness in longer races, just enough to make it more realistic.

XRR
Starting: impossible. I appreciate there are known tyre physics issues at low speed, but getting this off the line is a black art. If ever a film company needed some pyrotechnics, just get an XRR to start off the line - it provides all the smoke you ever need. ;) I know it will never launch as fast as the rear-engined FZR or the AWD FXR, but it needs to do better than what it can at the moment in order to not instantly lose 5 places. It doesn't make the car very accessible or popular, imho - which contributes to the FZR's popularity.

Laaaaaaag: the turbo spool-up can be measured with a calendar, not a stop-watch. It needs to be reduced a bit - to find a nice compromise between having to be aware to keep the engine on the boil, but not having to drive everywhere with one eye on the boost guage.

Zebidee: Both the other GTR cars are fine, so why does the XRR have the rather curious habit of bouncing up and flipping over if you drive over a tall kerb? In order to cement it's position as the endurance car of choice, it should be somewhat more forgiving.

In terms of forgivingness, you'd expect the FXR to be the best and the FZR the worst. As it stands the XRR (to me) is way down at the bottom with it's awful starts, turbo lag, and desire to recreate an immortal character from The Magic Roundabout.

FXR
Simple, really: top speed. Ok, so the FXR's profile isn't as svelte as the other two, and it has the drag of an AWD drivetrain. But it gets annihilated in a straight line by the other two. And as I'm sure the devs have noticed, the eight most popular tracks all feature a considerable straight/high speed section. Increase the top speed, but give it a few extra kilos or suchlike to (almost, but not quite) cancel it out in terms of lap time.

Of course, all the above is purely my own personal opinion, not fact. ;)

Oh and the way the aero works means that the FZR can use more downforce too, while the FXR and XRR get limited by the front wing angle.
Could you elaborate on that please? I haven't heard about that aspect before. :)

Bob Smith

22nd November 2005, 23:31

Could you elaborate on that please? I haven't heard about that aspect before. :)
It's simple really, the rear wing provides more downforce than the front wing, and can also be jacked up to twice the angle of attack. Lots of rear downforce is useless if there isn't enough front downforce to actually increase corner speeds - you are just increasing high speed understeer/stability.

Because the XRR and FXR are front heavy, they need lots of front downforce, so in the end even with the front wing at maximum (15 degrees) the rear wing is at very low angles (typically around half).

With the FZR, you need a lot more at the rear, so with 15 degrees at the front, you are also using very high rear wing angles as well. With the aerodynamics of the three cars being IDENTICAL, this means that the FZR can have extra grip on circuits where it is useful over what can be obtained with the other two GTR cars. On circuits where low wing angles are fastest, this advantage disappears.

Fonnybone

23rd November 2005, 04:37

I didn't read all posts, but i DID read one interesting comment:

Quote from Thorvertonian:

"If you want equal cars, race the same cars!!!!!"

Actually, that's a very good point. How come when everyone drives
the same car, we don't all finish at the exact same time? Pardon me
for being simplistic, but honestly, if 2 identical cars can't provide equal
times, what's the logic in saying ' Equal cars for more exciting races.' ?
This is where you go to a thread saying setups is the 'problem', lol.

I'll even go one step further, this here is ALL talk. I'm fed up with this argument
and i've decided i'll DO something about it. With the recent release of MecaniK,
you CAN experiment and alter the balance of car classes. I'd like to come up
with more balance GTR cars for example and see what the outcome is.

I'm sorry, but i have a scientific approach to things and talking (writing)
doesn't change anything imo. We've gone throught this subject quite a
few times and it always ends up being opinions and perceptions. I want numbers,
tests, results, etc... to get a clearer and more objective opinion on this. Exchanging
ideas is not bad, but it's not providing any more answers or proofs. :nod:

tristancliffe

23rd November 2005, 11:23

I agree Fonny! I think the vast majority of my races are in single car grids, and I've never noticed closer racing for it (i.e. mixed car grid aren't less competative).

You'll get the closest racing when your lap times are very similar to everyone elses, and the best way to find that is to enter leagues where the average skill level tends to be a bit higher.

Blowtus

23rd November 2005, 23:10

there seems to be a point where people get a bit too skilled and large gaps start opening up though :) div b always provides closer and (imho) better racing than div a, in the AAL league.

I think the 'equal cars for more exciting races' thing is valid... it's a more interesting race with different, but still fairly equal, cars.

mrodgers

24th November 2005, 04:55

My opinion on this thread is that it's starting to sound like a bunch of (RL) Nascar teams. You know, where Nascar allows an extra 1/4 inch on the bumper of the Fords and the Chevy and Dodge guys are all crying because they are "so much faster". Then the Chevy's get a 1/4 inch and the Ford guys are crying. Well, if you think that car is faster, then drive that car! I have been pretty much driving the GTR cars exclusively since S2 came out, particularly the FZR. I have seen close racing between all three cars, I have seen all three cars finish 1, 2, 3 with the FZR NOT being the winner. I have raced folks who constantly switch between the two where they were racing with me (FZR) in the FXR, then I was smoking them when they chose the FZR or XRR. I have also many, many times been thoroughly spanked by both FXR's and XRR's while driving my FZR. Maybe just a tiny little refinement needs to be done, but I think if anything major would change in any of the cars, the balance would then get all screwed up. The only monkey wrench I would like to see thrown into the equation is an American based front engined, rear wheel drive, lower rpm redline V8. Something like a Mustang/Camaro combination.

AndroidXP

24th November 2005, 07:43

Yeah, on a mixed skill driverset everything can happen. But with equally skillful drivers it is like this, no matter what you say:

FZR >> XRR >>>>>>>>>>> FXR

(In endurance, XRR might swap places with FZR)
Then you can argue, "but the FXR ownz at short twisty tracks". Well, who takes GTR cars on short twisty tracks? :shrug:

tailing

24th November 2005, 08:55

AndroidXP

24th November 2005, 10:55

Gah, should've said "somewhat equally skillful drivers". Of course you don't get a race with exactly equal drivers. The point is, on most tracks you need to be a very good FXR driver to beat a mediocre FZR driver.

NotAnIllusion

24th November 2005, 12:15

Yep, the gap between FXR & FZR/XRR is rather wide. I have to push everything to keep doing low 44s on As3 and pray the FZR in front makes a mistake accelerating out of each corner every lap so I can draft.. and still they (good drivers) do almost a second faster laps when I drive such times :scratchch

But XRR should be able to keep up (more or less anyway) with the FZR. There more or less equal drivers can have a good race! :D

Hyperactive

24th November 2005, 13:57

I just tried XRR in KY3 and even though I was little over second slower than in FZR (in best lap) I could easily pull 8 laps without melting my tires, while in FZR it took a lot of time to make the R2s last for 5 laps. And the difference is going to be smaller because I have driven the XRR under 50 laps in KY3 while the FZR over 200 laps, mostly offline...

Even if you let the XRR slide a bit (and the turbo kicks in at the same time so you get huge slides) the tires don't really get so damaged as they do in FZR. So in longer races where tire wear and fuel consumption are critical, I'd choose XRR. But in short races FZR just kicks *ss. FXR could be little faster on straights but it's way more easier to drive than the other two. Driving the rwd race cars is much more challenging than the FXR, because every acceleration has its risks. With FXR you can just floor the throttle and there is no lift-throttle-oversteer. XRR needs a better turbo.:tilt:

Maybe the race length has too much impact in car performance?

spankmeyer

24th November 2005, 17:04

If my memory serves me correctly, someone suggested adding a sequential turbo to XRR back in the RSC forum. That would cure the epic turbo lag problem, but would it actually help the XRR to keep up in the start? Not much weight on rear tyres nor AWD, so probably all you'd get were even more of wheelspin and smoke.

NotAnIllusion

24th November 2005, 17:35

Driving the rwd race cars is much more challenging than the FXR, because every acceleration has its risks. With FXR you can just floor the throttle and there is no lift-throttle-oversteer.
Actually, with LSDs you can get lift off and acceleration oversteer easily in the FXR too. I was playing around with the settings earlier and for the first time in a long time I spun it accelerating out of a tight corner, w/o touching the grass. Needless to say I went back to locked diffs. lol.

But when using a realistic low-nose setup, u really need LSDs to get the bastard to turn after a few laps, so this sort of phenomenon is not all that rare.. Having said that, it's still possible to nail the throttle with a bit more practice. :p

FXR could be little faster on straights but it's way more easier to drive than the other two
How ever easy the FXR is to drive, it's still simply not possible to keep up. It definitely needs more top speed. Losing 1-2 sec per lap no matter how spectacularly low the tyre wear & fuel consumption are, is too much to keep up with the other GTRs. (jmo..)

Hyperactive

24th November 2005, 17:51

How ever easy the FXR is to drive, it's still simply not possible to keep up. It definitely needs more top speed. Losing 1-2 sec per lap no matter how spectacularly low the tyre wear & fuel consumption are, is too much to keep up with the other GTRs. (jmo..)

I remember the first times when I was driving the FZR after the FXR. It was just impossible to make 5 adequate laps in a row without spinning or at least making a big slide. At the time I started racing the GTRs with the FXR (first GTR car for me. Ah the "old" times...) the only place I spun was the chicane in AS3. But when I got my lines "balanced" it was almost impossible to spin the car. Only if I floored the throttle too early I got some wide slides :) The chicane in AS3 was still my weak spot.

So what I'm saying is that it's easier to be consistent with FXR with less experience. For me the FZR was almost instantly faster than the FXR but keeping that thing on the black stuff was beyond this reality :D So the challenge in FXR is to drive all the time on the limit and in the FZR the challenge is just keeping the thing on road. imho. period. (but some of the FXR drivers are just too fast :smileypul )

Gunn

24th November 2005, 23:49

People talk in too simplistic terms in regards to this topic, there are so many variables that like I said above they will never be equal. Equal under what conditions? Equally skilled drivers? Sorry but even in leagues you'll rarely get 20 equally skilled drivers on the same server.Yeah, I think this needs to be said. True equality can't occur, even so if everyone used identical setups and hardware.

To address the topic of equal cars or classes, LFS really doesn't have any "classes" as such. There are two cars that are close (XFG and XRG), and perhaps these could be considered the same class. I know some people call "TBO" a class, but I can't draw the same conclusion, these three cars are very different, more so on some tracks than others, but markedly so.

I think the 3 big GTRs could be more or less equally competitive, over a given lap, on some circuits, but their strengths would shine on other circuits and their differences become apparent. Perhaps track selection for a race series needs to be given more thought?

Mixed Class racing could be successful if LFS could take care of keeping score for each class. This way racers could compete for an overall title, and a class title, as is done in some rallying events and even the old Bathurst 1000 was like that once, before V8 Stuporcars took over.

To me the car that currently offers the most potential for close racing is the FOX. A range of setups are driveable, many racers can adapt to this car. The FOX is forgiving and can be driven very hard. It is often skill and track knowledge that seperates the winners from the also-rans in a FOX race. If you have been beaten well, there's a good chance you were beaten by a better driver, not so much a better car. Not that setups are unimportant, but many good ones are available publicly. Practice and good racecraft are the only things standing between winning and losing.

J_Matrix

7th December 2005, 10:43

Hello,
It's not too much that i'm racing online since S2 has been released.
I've suddenldy started to use GTR cars, and since i've always driven FXO, i've started using the FXR. I felt good when driving it. I've also tried FZR and XRR, but the second one was too difficult to be driven at limit, while the FZR appeared to be more handy. Anyway, i'm quite an unperfect driver, i do many errors and i drive quite dirt, so the FZR didn't fit me.
Anyway, in these last days, i've raced on SO town. I've managed to get very close to the WR of the FXR on this track (i'm 0.9secs behind). I guess that for many other experienced drivers -0.9s from a WR is an abyss.. but for me it's surprisingly NEAR.
I race LFS even before 0.5a version, and i've always been from 2 to 4 secs slower from the WR on any track (with qualifyng setups and so). So i felt fast, until i've raced with FZR's again. They can do my 1'16''xx WITH A RACE SETUP, while i can reach that time with almost no fuel and with tyres that last in 4 laps.. Yesterday i've asked one of my friends of my team (IRT) to tell me how he setted up his rear wing on his FZR. He told me "23". To get decent times, i need to put 4-5 on my rear wing!! And I pay to FZR's up to 5-10km/h on the straight, not counting how much i loose in the turns, since i have 5 times less downforce.
I also destroy even r4 tyres in 20 laps, and of course, if i need to do 20 laps, my times get far and far away from the 1'16'' (in fact i'm around 1'18'' as best and the average lap is around 1'20'').
I can also say that i did a 30 lap race on AS historic, 2 strategy pit using all R2s, and i took at the end of the race 90'' of gap from an FZR having the same strategy of me (obviously i lost just trying to have the same strategy, but i'm saying this to underline the difference between the cars). In few words i took 3 secs per lap of gap from an FZR. Which is the gap between the WR's of the FZR and FXR on Historic.

I guess that the FXR has one advantage: it burns very low fuel. But i guess that i may handle this advantage ONLY on very long races, like 6hrs in which i obviuously have to pit less than FZRs. But i don't have time either to run a 6hrs race!

What i'm saying is that I think we should have a more balanced GTR class. I know FXR is easyer to drive but:
-to be as fast as possible i need to push harder and harder, and my tyres last even before FZR's ones.
-i've got VERY LOW top speed (which should be quite right, because i have the AWD traction that makes friction)
-I've got turbo lag (devastating because it's hard to come out fast from slow turns)
-I need to keep my wings near 0 to compensate top speed loss, so I'm obviously slower in turns since i don't have downforce.

I've read all the topic, and obviously i agree with those that would like to see some more "variety" in this class. I know that top-notch drivers can drive XRR and FXR very close tho their limits, but it's also true that a same level driver using an FZR would always beat them. I don't know if it's planned in the next physics update, but i'd really like to see reducing this gap between these cars in future. I understand the FXR is easyer to drive than the other 2 race cars, and i think it should always be a bit less faster than the FZR.. but as things are now, the gap is way too much.
Maybe developers' thought was to advantage XRR and FXR over very long race distances, and maybe you can all confirm this to me (just for matter of times it's very hard for me to find time to do a 6hrs race, and i think i'm not alone, since i don't live to play a game :D).

I hope what i said can be understood (sorry if i made mistakes in my english :D) and i'd like read any answer to this damn long post :schwitz: :D:D:D

tailing

7th December 2005, 11:12

I agree with you about the FXR, it just doesn't seem to be competitive under any circumstances but I think the XRR and FZR should remain the same.
I really like the FZR, not simply because it's fast but but because it's RWD and naturally aspirated and being rear engined it is unique but in the aforementioned league in some races I drove the XRR because it was clearly better.

AndroidXP

7th December 2005, 11:40

I guess that the FXR has one advantage: it burns very low fuel. But i guess that i may handle this advantage ONLY on very long races, like 6hrs in which i obviuously have to pit less than FZRs. But i don't have time either to run a 6hrs race!The sad thing is, it even burns more fuel than the XRR. And it has a worse tyre usage too.

The only tracks where the FXR comes close to the others from a laptime point of view is probably the SO tracks. And even if you can match the speed of the other cars, to archive that you are driving much more aggressive and material destroying than the others do when driving the same laptimes.

Gabkicks

7th December 2005, 15:02

does anyone else here besides me want a rwd car to compete in the same class as the xfr ufr?

geeman1

7th December 2005, 15:08

does anyone else here besides me want a rwd car to compete in the same class as the xfr ufr?
Me :)
Or maybe want is too strong word, but I would not mind that at all.

sinbad

7th December 2005, 15:17

does anyone else here besides me want a rwd car to compete in the same class as the xfr ufr?

Or how about just a nice small rwd racing car that doesn't have to be compromised by being slotted into a class. Multi-car classes are overrated (imo).

mrodgers

7th December 2005, 16:33

does anyone else here besides me want a rwd car to compete in the same class as the xfr ufr?
Me, me! But what would they do about naming it? The XRGT is basically in the same class as the XFGTi. So, beings it would be a GTR car, we couldn't call it an XRR as this is already the Turbo GT GTR. We couldn't use the GT part of XRGT in the name making it GTR, because the full name would then be GTR GTR. All these initials for car names really start to get confusing after a while. We do need a RWD for the slower GTR car class. WTF, OMG, ROFL, LMAO, I just wrote initials/acronyms 11 times in 3 sentences up there, LOL!

Gabkicks

7th December 2005, 17:10

they could just "racetune" the xrg. it would be the XRGR. :scratchch

J_Matrix

7th December 2005, 17:23

The sad thing is, it even burns more fuel than the XRR. And it has a worse tyre usage too.

The only tracks where the FXR comes close to the others from a laptime point of view is probably the SO tracks. And even if you can match the speed of the other cars, to archive that you are driving much more aggressive and material destroying than the others do when driving the same laptimes.

Yes, you're right, the car burns more than the XRR. I guess it was my fault because i were too slow with it and so i thought the fuel consuption btw FXR and XRR was almost the same.
Anyway as you say, on very long races it's true that with an FXR you burn less fuel than FZRs, but i don't get advantage from this because i need to pit before i end my fuel because my tyres burn faster :D

About a small RWD call in XFGTR an UFR i'd agree.. but i guess that here we are speaking of "balancing" issues, which are supposed to be more possible than adding a new car (and balance it with patches and so on). I really hope that devs will hear our scream for having a slighlty more competitive FXR!

Vain

20th December 2005, 20:27

J_Matrix

31st December 2005, 10:45

Sorry for heating up dead and buried threads.
For compensation I'll try to phrase it short:
- A comparison of cars should be made over all tracks and over all durations. Aston National isn't actually the only track in LFS.
- It's impossible that the cars are equal. It's the task of the leagues to find out tracks/durations where all cars perform equally well. If the FZR is too fast on short races, make the race longer. If the FXR is too slow on long and wide tracks, drive Blackwood both standard and reversed in your league.
- Accept the LFS-world as given. You may suggest things, but all in all the constants in the game should be viewed as that - constant. That will do away with all "Oh, the devs are soo evil and mean." and open you're thoughts for "Oh, it will be tricky to beat the XRR on that duration. I'd better get practicing now."

Angryminer

Right, but as we already said, not everybody can drive for hours a very long race. Furthermore, the FXR has got a very bad tyre consumption, which doesn't allow it to compete over long distances taking advantage of lower fuel consuption compared to FZR. The FXR lose on the straight without top speed, lose in turns, because without downforce, lose in fuel consumption and tyre consumption with XRR. I've read somewhere else that devs admitted that the FXR has something wrong.
You're right when you say that 3 cars so different can't be the same. But at least there should not be a difference of 2 from 3 seconds of gap on many tracks, and the car that lose is almost always the FXR. That's just not right.
"Accept the LFS-world as given": right, but not that right i think. I've been a developer too, and what happens when you're developing something, is that you have to deal with a community of players. Sometimes it's hard to follow certain suggestions just because most of players bother your decisions, but some other times, players do suggest very good things, that you may have neither thought about. What i mean is that LFS-world is made also for us, so we have the chance, at least, to suggest things to the devs. Nobody thinks they are evil and mean, not at all!! I would never think this, even if in the next patch the FXR will remain the same. I have a great respect for who is developing this game, for many reasons that is useless i list here. I hope you can get my point of view :schwitz: