Undecided seeks answers to questions

[cragwolf]

Hello, and sorry in advance for the length of this post. I have been away from not only sim racing, but also Windows for a long time, having entered the Twilight Zone of Linux. That experience has been wonderful, and I can't see myself leaving it, but the one thing I have missed is sim racing. So I have decided, after saving up some money from my boring night-shift job, to buy a Windows machine solely dedicated to gaming, especially sim racing. This will happen very soon!

Since making this decision I have scanned some web sites, trying to find information on what are considered to be the best current sim racing games. I see GTR2, GTL, rFactor, and LFS as being the main choices. The last time I was in the Windows world, I did try out an early demo version of LFS, and I liked it, but GTR held sway over me, despite its apparently inferior physics, thanks to the huge amount of community content (tracks, mainly).

But gradually I became sick of GTR. I won't tell you the reasons why, I don't want to publicly bash an honestly good game. I learned some things though about my tastes: 1) Graphics and sounds only matter a little. 2) Content is not as important as I used to believe. 3) Physics, AI and game play are vitally important! So I have some questions abut LFS that will partially demonstrate my concerns, and I appreciate any answers you can provide, as they will help turn me from undecided to decided:

* What is the AI like in LFS? Tolerable, bad or ugly? (There's no such thing as good AI) I just want to be able to race against the AI for plenty of laps and have some fun in the process, without being frustrated by their stupid behaviour.

* Can you create a custom championship? Or can you fake it by choosing the exact same AI drivers for each race? Can you export race results to a file? I like doing fantasy championships like this. It's a role-playing thing.

* What's the FFB like in LFS? I don't like canned or scripted effects. It really ought to closely map the geometry of the road surface and the physics of the car, if you know what I mean.

* What's the tire model like? Does it simulate the changing wear, pressure and temperature that happen in real life? What about other aspects of the physics model (e.g. suspension, damage, aerodynamics)

* Do I have control of my car during pit stops? Can I pause the race then, so I can specify exactly how much fuel to add, and how many tires to change? Does the AI do pit stops properly?

* What is the online experience like? Is the netcode up to scratch? Are the servers filled with idiots driving the wrong way? Are the servers filled with arrogant pros with bad attitudes towards newbies?

Have a nice day.

[undertech]

* What is the AI like in LFS? They will serve as traffic, but even a slow driver like myself can overtake them so they are of no real use (unless you wanted a rolling demo or something).

* Can you create a custom championship? I don't think the game keeps records for SP races beyond that single race - I.E. stats do not move from track to track. Heck, LFS doesn't even permanently keep track of YOUR laptimes locally.

* What's the FFB like in LFS? No clue as I use the yellow logitech wheel.

* What's the tire model like? Wear (flatspots too), sidewall deformation, pressure, temperature, camber, etc. You can damage your suspension. Currently aero is not affected by damage (but there IS visible damage to the bodywork).

* Do I have control of my car during pit stops? Not too sure about this.

* What is the online experience like? I found that demo has a FEW good servers that are not dedicated to drifting, but the quality of the people have went way up since I moved to S2 as there are more incentives for people not to get banned. As far as arrogance goes - you'll always get your share of bad apples. But so far I've been pleasantly surprised for the most part (and this is coming from a backmarker so I feel I am an authority on the subject :D )
Netcode is good for me, although I do have a broadband connection. It won't be counter-strike smooth but I rarely get disconnected and the racing feels good even without 15ms pings.

Have a nice day.
Thanks you too!

[Blackout]

Hi, and Welcome!

* What is the AI like in LFS? Tolerable, bad or ugly? (There's no such thing as good AI) I just want to be able to race against the AI for plenty of laps and have some fun in the process, without being frustrated by their stupid behaviour.

The AI in LFS is still worked on. But it's a learning AI, you send them around a track and they learn the line while they go. Trained AI can be tough to beat, but at the moment they can't pit and usually are a bit aggressive and bump in to you. You got to remember LFS is online racing simulation, and there is nothing like a real human who makes mistakes and is not a machine.

* Can you create a custom championship? Or can you fake it by choosing the exact same AI drivers for each race? Can you export race results to a file? I like doing fantasy championships like this. It's a role-playing thing.
Well no. But you can participate in a real league and drive against real people ;)

* What's the FFB like in LFS? I don't like canned or scripted effects. It really ought to closely map the geometry of the road surface and the physics of the car, if you know what I mean.
There are no canned effects in LFS, the FFB is calculated from the movement of the front wheels and therefore gives only the information you could feel trough the wheel of your car in real life. Widely considered as the best system to go with.

* What's the tire model like? Does it simulate the changing wear, pressure and temperature that happen in real life? What about other aspects of the physics model (e.g. suspension, damage, aerodynamics)
Yes, wear and temperatures and pressure and all that are modelled very well, you can actually see the tire flexing. Suspension and tire model are spot on at the moment, here is a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdldZlNDm80) showing some of it. There is still some work to do with the aerodynamics and the damage model.
* Do I have control of my car during pit stops? Can I pause the race then, so I can specify exactly how much fuel to add, and how many tires to change? Does the AI do pit stops properly?
As said AI doesn't do pitstops, yet. The car is halted during a stop, and you can work your fuel and tire-setting, but you got to do it beforehand.

* What is the online experience like? Is the netcode up to scratch? Are the servers filled with idiots driving the wrong way? Are the servers filled with arrogant pros with bad attitudes towards newbies?

Well...LFS is a online racing simulation. The online part is the key in LFS. Long as you stay on the more quality servers you can't see such behaviour, driving the wrong way gives you auto-kick in most cases. The attitudes towards the "newbs" differ, but I think it's up to them what kind of attitude they have, it's usually very friendly as people don't act like idiots themself. It could be said that the community is very friendly and helpful.


When talking about LFS you got to remember that most areas are still worked on, and a patch or an update will eventually come along to fix things.

[tristancliffe]

* What is the AI like in LFS? It's rubbish really, but as said, they do learn, and it will be worked on before LFS S2 becomes Final. They are better on slower cars, but have no concept of tyre temps or damage, let alone pitting... And they have a tendency to ignore the player car.

* Can you create a custom championship? There are online championships, but I see now reason why you couldn't sort of make an offline one too just for you and AI, but I don't think it would be very rewarding...

* What's the FFB like in LFS? Not perfect, but better than any other sim in my opinion. netKar Pro's is pretty good too, with it's strengths where LFS has weaknesses, as LFS's strengths are where nKP has weaknesses. Kerbs and general road textures aren't transferred through the FFB in LFS, which is a shame.

* What's the tire model like? It's awesome. We have wear, pressure (effected by heat), temps, deformation, flatspots, punctures (from heat and wear, not damage). Quite simply the best game tyre model in any available sim ever. Some might argue they can do better, but as we can't play them it doesn't mean anything.

* Do I have control of my car during pit stops? AI won't pit, but you have (in online mode only at the moment) full control over the pitstop - change camber, tyre compound, wing angles, fuel level.

* What is the online experience like? Most are pretty good - the netcode is great. There are always bad apples who insist on driving the wrong way or being rude to newbies, but (in my experience) everyone is really nice and friendly. If you want to experience fun go to a team server when the team is hanging out there (e.g. dSRC).

Hope you enjoy it, because it really is a great sim, and it's kept lots of us busy for 4 years. And the best bit is that Scawen is still making it better and better (for nothing once you've paid for S2 [until S3 comes out]), so you can buy now, pay nothing for (say) 2 years, and yet see the game transform completely... How many other games do that? netKar (for example) will take your money and sell you an unfinished pile of crap, not bother to develop it, and generally ignore the customers.

[Shotglass]

its all been answered well so far but i think one important bit is still missing:
give the demo a try
its the same as the full version with less cars less tracks and messier servers
plus it will answer all these questions much better than words ever could
oh and one tip: while youre on track press F9-F12 which will help answering a whole bunch of your questions

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

* What's the FFB like in LFS? Kerbs and general road textures aren't transferred through the FFB in LFS, which is a shame.

Whilst there is no canned effect played; you can feel curbs under circumstances where there are the appropriate forces generated against the suspension. If the geometry is conductive, those forces will cause torque on the steering column and you can feel it. So, depending on the steering setup (caster etc) you can feel them more or less. If your inside wheel gently glides over them, you don't feel it much since there is little weight on that wheel. You can also feel the road some times; ie best in the XFR with a locked diff. Fern Bay feels really rough, as do some parts of South City. This again is just due to the right circumstances - lots of traction; the driven wheels are also the steering wheels; and the locked diff doesn't soak up speed difference so the odd jolt causes torque on the steering column. Vertical suspension motion doesn't generally cause (much) torque on the steering column. So, the FFB is different between RWD/FWD/AWD vehicles for obvious reasons. It's also greatly affected by the setup of the car for any given drivetrain layout. You won't find that in any other sim.

[mrodgers]

I'll give 2 comments as the majority has already been addressed.

* Do I have control of my car during pit stops?

This has already been addressed in one aspect. The other thing I can see from looking at the way the question is worded is how I think GTR does pitstops where the sim takes control of the driving from you when you enter the pits. No, this does not happen in LFS. You continue to do the driving as you enter and while on pit road. There is a pitroad speed limit which is 80 kph/48 mph that you have to maintain. You can and will get a pitroad penalty for speeding. You have to stop in a pitbox for the stop, and you can miss an end up between boxes with no work being done. One thing that is missing is there are no specific pitboxes. You just stop in any of them that you'd like. Hopefully in the future, this will change as it is a constantly changing sim with features being added quite often.

* What is the online experience like?

The online experience is where it's all at. Enough comments have been made about the online servers in S2 and demo. I just wanted to touch on a part that is important to me, which is net connection. I'm on dialup, good ole 56k (my connection always says 45.2 k). I don't download the skins, don't websurf, don't have antivirus or firewall running, don't MSN, or have automatic updates running on windows or any other program while on LFS. Just wanted to get that out. Now for the good stuff. My good ole 56k has been nearly flawless for 2 years now racing on LFS. Underteck mentions 15ms ping in his post. I'll tell you that the best ping I have is around 230 ms in the server list. I am in the US and race on UK, Germany, and many other European servers as well as over here in the US and Canada. I very rarely have any problems with disconnects or lag. I ask often in the servers. About the only problems I have is with the South American (namely Brazil I believe) servers as they are usually up above 320 ms. I could race with 5 or 6 others there, but with under 300 ms, I race with up to 15-18 others very stable. So, yeah, the net code is pretty good I'll say.

Hope this helps.

[tristancliffe]

Whilst there is no canned effect played; you can feel curbs under circumstances where there are the appropriate forces generated against the suspension. If the geometry is conductive, those forces will cause torque on the steering column and you can feel it. So, depending on the steering setup (caster etc) you can feel them more or less. If your inside wheel gently glides over them, you don't feel it much since there is little weight on that wheel. You can also feel the road some times; ie best in the XFR with a locked diff. Fern Bay feels really rough, as do some parts of South City. This again is just due to the right circumstances - lots of traction; the driven wheels are also the steering wheels; and the locked diff doesn't soak up speed difference so the odd jolt causes torque on the steering column. Vertical suspension motion doesn't generally cause (much) torque on the steering column. So, the FFB is different between RWD/FWD/AWD vehicles for obvious reasons. It's also greatly affected by the setup of the car for any given drivetrain layout. You won't find that in any other sim.

Yeah I know - some kerbs are bumpier than others, and car setup and situation make a difference, but the general complaint with LFS's FFB is that these are not quite pronounced enough. As a long-timer with LFS I can feel the flexing of the tyres before the break traction through the FFB, because I'm so accustomed to it, but to a 'newbie' it might seem dead. Especially compared to 'canned-effect-heaven', or ISI sims as they are sometimes known.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Indeed. I simply thought I might clarify instead of leaving it at "Doesn't transmit curbs".... when it's really "Only transmits them under the correct circumstances" :D

[joen]

My take:
* What is the AI like in LFS? Tolerable, bad or ugly? (There's no such thing as good AI) I just want to be able to race against the AI for plenty of laps and have some fun in the process, without being frustrated by their stupid behaviour.

It might be tolerable for some, especially when first starting out. But to be honest I would say that at the moment it's bad at best. AFAIK it hasn't been improved since S1, so it's especially bad with the newer (faster) cars. The AI is trainable though. So if you race them a lot (or let them race eachother while you do other stuff) they will improve quite significantly.

This doesn't mean it will stay like that forever though. AFAIK, it will be improved before S2 goes final. But since LFS' focuses on online racing other aspects of the game have been given higher priority so far.


* Can you create a custom championship? Or can you fake it by choosing the exact same AI drivers for each race? Can you export race results to a file? I like doing fantasy championships like this. It's a role-playing thing.

Uhm, I believe if you do several races in one session you keep on racing the same AI drivers untill you change it. You cannot export the race results directly from LFS, but for mulitplayer races S2 has the wonderful www.lfsworld.net which keeps track of all your results.


* What's the FFB like in LFS? I don't like canned or scripted effects. It really ought to closely map the geometry of the road surface and the physics of the car, if you know what I mean.
Luckily LFS has absolutely no canned effects whatsoever.


* What's the tire model like? Does it simulate the changing wear, pressure and temperature that happen in real life? What about other aspects of the physics model (e.g. suspension, damage, aerodynamics)
LFS' tyre model is the most advanced you will find in sim racing world, and it has gotten a lot of attention in the development. Last year's april patch marked a big improvement in that area.
(Suspension) damage is too limited atm, but also an important set goal for S2 final. The same goes for all physics related stuff by the way.


* Do I have control of my car during pit stops? Can I pause the race then, so I can specify exactly how much fuel to add, and how many tires to change? Does the AI do pit stops properly?
You can't pause it, but you can access a menu before pitting in which you can set the tyres you want and the amount of fuel can also be set.


* What is the online experience like? Is the netcode up to scratch? Are the servers filled with idiots driving the wrong way? Are the servers filled with arrogant pros with bad attitudes towards newbies?

Have a nice day.

The netcode is certainly up to scratch and one of the best out there. Overall you will find that there's lots of cool people to be found online. But since idiots and arrogant people can be found everywhere, there surely will be some around in LFS as well.
Wreckers will have hard time surviving in LFS, since you can report them to the so called "wrecker barricade" This is a system used by many S2 servers and aims to inform server owners about people behaving badly. Which results in long term and sometimes even life long bans from servers.

[cragwolf]

Thanks for your responses. So it seems the AI sucks, but is still being developed, and the heart of this game is in the online experience. Oh well, once I get new computer, I'll be able to test out the demo, and then if all goes well I'll see you guys on the track! :thumb:

[Goop]

hi,

In case you weren't aware of this part of the Aussie community, here's a couple of local LFS-related sites & forums:

Aussie Race Sim Enthusiasts (http://arse.norbtech.com/phpBB/index.php) - sub-forums include a dedicated LFS forum, and a forum devoted to the LFS league Australasian Endurance League (AAL). About 450 members.

OzBee-R (http://www.ozbee-racing.com/phpbb/index.php) - they have a great Monday night racing league, called, er.... Monday Night Racing (MNR). Friendly bunch of blokes.

Then there's the assortment of teams (PR, SCR, PRT etc.).... there'd probably be more, but I think we ran out of acronyms.

Local servers tend to be excellent. The community is pretty tight; everyone knows everyone else, and it's pretty rare to find anyone doing the wrong thing.

Seriously.... best money I ever spent on a game, still getting my $60 worth 4+ years on. Hope to see you on track sometime :up: