Realistic Set-up options

[KartRacer]

I think LFS is missing a bunch of important set-up options for the GTR cars and for the open-wheel cars as well. Coming from GPL and also using GTR2 and R-factor on occasion, the setup page in LFS looks kinda weak...
LFS is the best sim (for me) at giving a feeling of driving and also a feeling of the changes I make to the cars setup. Theres just some things missing! I'm sure the dev's have contemplated nearly everyone of these, and I hope they take them all into consideration. What do you guys think?
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-Differential Pre-load
-Fast Bump/Rebound damper Adjustments
-Suspension Packers
-Specific corner adjustments, ie; tire pressure,camber,toe etc.
-Suspension Spring stiffness that isn't so directly related to ride height
-Brake Duct (requires brake wear)
-Radiator Duct (requires engine wear/temp.)
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-"stock" cars have too many adjustments
-types of differentials shouldn't be an option
-parallel steer should be referred to as ackerman
-Online setup database ala GTR2, would be beautiful. Look at all the threads in the setup section just looking for a base setup!
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Previously suggested changes:
-locked differential issues
-setup folder's for track/car (possibly customizable folders ie: base setups, specific track setups, sub-folders like; qauli set,short race,long race etc etc.

[JTbo]

I can adjust every corner tire pressure and camber.

[Bob Smith]

Differential pre-load and 4-way dampers are not adjustable since they are not yet modelled. I'm sure they will be adjustable once they are modelled.

Do you have a good link to what packers actually are?

Tire pressures and camber are already adjustable per wheel, I can't imagine why you would want toe adjustable per wheel.

I don't understand what you mean by spring stiffness and ride height. A spring has a fixed length and a fixed stiffness. Changing the stiffness does not alter the length of the spring, but of course it will alter the spring deflection when the vehicle's mass is resting on them.

---------------------------------------------

Not sure on the differential type choice, I don't know many types of diff than can actually be adjusted (electronic ones aside for a moment, since we don't have those in LFS) without replacement, if you can replace a diff, why not with one of a different type?

I agree with you about the Ackermann / parallel steering issue. I always use them around to the other way to LFS.

An online setup database exists, no idea what the GTR2 one is like but the TeamInferno one is used by many and seems to serve the purpose well.

[JTbo]

An online setup database exists, no idea what the GTR2 one is like but the TeamInferno one is used by many and seems to serve the purpose well.

GTR 1 at least had in game browsable server directories with setups, anyone could send theirs there and well, um, it was bit mess there, imo. Would work if planned properly, don't know if they did changes to that in GTR2.

http://sify.com/sports/motorsport/fullstory.php?id=900962
Packers: Packers form part of the suspension assembly and adjust the position at which the bump rubbers become loaded.
Check also http://www.f1technical.net/articles/39

So hmm, bump stops I know, also I know what packers do, but can't get picture to my head.

[Bob Smith]

Reading that makes it sound like they act like a bump stop that comes into play before the spring is fully compressed. So adjusting them is just removing the bottom end of the motion range on a spring? So, in an ideal world, you wouldn't need them, but since everything is a compromise they can be useful to prevent something hitting the ground - right?

[JTbo]

Reading that makes it sound like they act like a bump stop that comes into play before the spring is fully compressed. So adjusting them is just removing the bottom end of the motion range on a spring? So, in an ideal world, you wouldn't need them, but since everything is a compromise they can be useful to prevent something hitting the ground - right?

Hmm, like a shim, adjusts bump stop length and sits between body and bumpstop?

After reading some more I have come to that conclusion, so instead of changing bumpstop design you add material between bumpstop and body and this is called packers then.

Spring packer (http://www.expeditionexchange.com/cart/product.php?productid=19448&cat=384&page=1)

5th and 6th photo (http://george4wd.taskled.com/suspension.html) from top, he makes packer, I guess?

Never have had need for such, even bump stops I did lost at front, not my fault well, kind of there was one only at other side and even that I forgot to put back in when assembled front end with new shocks, it won't need any and got 50mm more suspension travel, which actually made rear inside wheel to loose even more traction, but that is problems with super soft suspension.

[KartRacer]

I know some of my suggestions couldn't happen ATM because of certain modeling/physics limitations, I'm just suggesting them all, easily implemented or not, because I thought they are all other possible and realistic options that are currently missing. As I stated "I'm sure Scawen already thought of all of this" :)


This is my understanding (not sayin' I know what I'm talking about)

Packers are a soft bump stop....they allow you to run alot of downforce with softer suspension by not letting the springs compress all the way, giving you (at a much suspension higher rate) suspension travel down the straights with out running out of ride height. They are adjusted because in slower corners you would like to use the whole spring so you would want a smaller packer. At a track with many fast corners and many slow corners, you could still run a soft car by using the packers to save you from any damage when bumps are taken at higher speeds.

I got a list of things from a forum that you can change on a F1 car in one of those other "sims":)

TIRE PRESSURE
ANTI-ROLL BAR
FRONT TOE IN
SPRING RATE
SLOW BUMP
SLOW REBOUND
FAST BUMP
FAST REBOUND
PACKERS
RIDE HEIGHT
CAMBER
CASTER
BRAKE DISC-disc width, rotating weight vs. cooling/wear
TIRE PRESSURE
TIRE COMPOUND
GEARS
RADIATOR SIZE
BOOST MAPPING -no idea
ENGINE BRAKE MAP
FRONT DOWN FORCE
REAR DOWN FORCE
STEERING LOCK
BRAKE BIAS
BRAKE DUCT SIZE
BRAKE PRESSURE
PUMP%
POWER%
COAST%
PRELOAD
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Originally Posted by Bob Smith http://www.lfsforum.net/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=363507#post363507)
Not sure on the differential type choice, I don't know many types of diff than can actually be adjusted (electronic ones aside for a moment, since we don't have those in LFS) without replacement, if you can replace a diff, why not with one of a different type?
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-Good point, but Formula cars and the GT cars are usually restricted to rules that govern what kind of diff. they use(I'm guessing)


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Originally Posted by Bob Smith http://www.lfsforum.net/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=363507#post363507)
I don't understand what you mean by spring stiffness and ride height. A spring has a fixed length and a fixed stiffness. Changing the stiffness does not alter the length of the spring, but of course it will alter the spring deflection when the vehicle's mass is resting on them.
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"Ride height (ground clearance or simply clearance) is the amount of space between the base of an automobile tire and the underside of the chassis"

- You can adjust spring stiffness, but the ride height setting stays the same in LFS. In the sense of the term, it should stay the same unless you change it. You can watch the car move up and down if you stiffen the suspension. Now I do understand that soft suspension will let the car lay further down, but then the measure of the ride height should change accordingly...(again I think)


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Originally Posted by Bob Smith http://www.lfsforum.net/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=363507#post363507)
An online setup database exists, no idea what the GTR2 one is like but the TeamInferno one is used by many and seems to serve the purpose well.
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It is in game, and fairly organized. It separates setups by track and then by car, thus if you went to say, Blackwood, you could go to the online data base and scroll through a bunch of setups that were uploaded by other people. Read a small description of a few and view its rating (community rating). That way your easy to drive setups could be easily accessible to every LFS player with proper recognition and a popularity factor of 10! :thumb::nod:


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Originally Posted by Bob Smith http://www.lfsforum.net/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=363507#post363507)
Tire pressures and camber are already adjustable per wheel, I can't imagine why you would want toe adjustable per wheel.
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You're right about toe. But I do think it is quite realistic to allow for separate spring/damper settings for each wheel as they are separate spring/shock assemblies. An oval racing type suspension pops to mind, but even on a road course, I'm sure I would take advantage of the option to adjust maybe, say, for a different rear stiffness on one side to counter a series of fast corners that are the same direction.
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Again, I know I don't know what I'm talking about....:schwitz:

[Bob Smith]

About the ride height, it's essentially just mis-labeled in LFS, it's the spring length you're actually adjusting, but due to the way LFS works internally, you don't set the spring length directly, rather some weird figure. The trouble is changing it to raw spring length (which would be logical) means braking compatability with all existing setup files, unless extra measures are taken.

[KartRacer]

Ahhh, ic.

[Gunn]

About the ride height, it's essentially just mis-labeled in LFS,No, LFS has no true ride height adjustment as far as I can tell.

[Gimpster]

About the ride height, it's essentially just mis-labeled in LFS, it's the spring length you're actually adjusting, but due to the way LFS works internally, you don't set the spring length directly, rather some weird figure. The trouble is changing it to raw spring length (which would be logical) means braking compatability with all existing setup files, unless extra measures are taken.

I think Ride Height should be changed to spring pre-load. I think that is what we are really adjusting.

[bbman]

Well, wouldn't that be a matter of editing a few strings? Surely that can be done...

[Bob Smith]

No, LFS has no true ride height adjustment as far as I can tell.
Isn't that what I was saying?

[KartRacer]

So, the rest of the suggestions....what do ya all think?

[seinfeld]

packars are bumpstops, adding more decreases the stroke of the shock, but maintains ride height

as far as suspension changine ride height that is real like, when u go softer naturally the car is gana be lower

id like to see more metric units of measurment like in spring strenth KG cm2 is used, Kn is never used EVER !

better explaination of the units of measure to as the test speed 40ns? i mean wtf is that, use KM per hour

dampener adjustability, springs adjustability for all 4 corners is a step in the right direction as well,

radiator ect is a bit over the top, I mean most race teams, need the car cooled as much as possible so adding a function that lets u put in a thinner radiator is kinda worthless IMHO

a live dyno to see gear gap spaces ect, without having to leave garage would be good as well, fuel map changes, good for stratagy, timing boost,, when reliabilty becomes a big factor will be good as well

data logging and aquistion is a big thing that is needed as well

[Jamexing]

id like to see more metric units of measurment like in spring strenth KG cm2 is used, Kn is never used EVER !

better explaination of the units of measure to as the test speed 40ns? i mean wtf is that, use KM per hour

dampener adjustability, springs adjustability for all 4 corners is a step in the right direction as well,

radiator ect is a bit over the top, I mean most race teams, need the car cooled as much as possible so adding a function that lets u put in a thinner radiator is kinda worthless IMHO

a live dyno to see gear gap spaces ect, without having to leave garage would be good as well, fuel map changes, good for stratagy, timing boost,, when reliabilty becomes a big factor will be good as well

data logging and aquistion is a big thing that is needed as well

What's wrong with the units in LFS? They are the ideal units for car setups. Since most LFS units are SI units (KiloNewtons, meters, etc), what's wrong?

If there's one more thing that LFS lacks but should have (besides what's already mentioned), it's the use of progressive springs. Settings should include initial(soft) rate and the final (stiff) rate that activates when the spring in series gets bound. And do allow specification of rate changeover point (e.g. rear springs on a powerful RWD car gets stiff after 10mms of initial travel).

Why progressives? It's use is getting more popular by the day, especially those who need better comfort AND handling. From a racing context, extra "comfort" actually translates to extra grip, since it allows the tire loads to fluctuate less over time (keeping tires in contact of the gorund helps too). In fact, the 4WD aftermarket has been generating suspension packages with progressive springs that more comfortable than OEM while still increasing on and off road handling and stability (this of course excludes those stupidly excessive lift kits).

[JTbo]

Kg/cm2 to Kn/m is rather easy conversion, roughly the same number, but as Newton is not 10 but 9.8something it is that 1kg/cm2 is 0.980665 kN/m unless my brain is not mixing units as I just woke up :razz:

Sure few alternative units to choose from could be nice, but not very important.

What about dampers, you should set valving, say 275/78 Bilstein, of course that would be bit hard to understand but that is used IRL, well that would be 2750 newtons rebound and 780 newtons bump both at 0.52 m/s.
Now if we take Koni, it is told differently again so we should need many different units of valving.

But seriously dampers are adjusted in 100N increments, is this bit rough, 10N or at least 50N might be good, imo, but of course hard to feel difference of 100N also.

[KeiichiRX7]

OK, i've just got to say something.

People alwys complain that Car A shoudnt have Adjustment B, because it's real life street variant wouldnt have it.... Bugs the hell out of me, because it lacks any kind of intiutive imagination. With a little thinking one realses that these probably are NOT ordianry street cars, but street legal CUP cariants of thier plain jane counterparts. Or simply that the class in which they are entered in ALLOWS all of those adjustments.

Want settings a certain way in a league? Feel free to hold tech inspections after the race. Collect everyone's setups, and take a look at each. Someone could even make a program for doing that.

[Cue-Ball]

I have to disagree with you, Keiichi. The road cars in this game are just that - road cars. They are not cup cars and not race cars. They have no rollcage and full interiors. As such, they should have only a very limited adjustment. Say, perhaps, three ride heights, five levels of damping, three ARB settings, and three final gear ratios (transmission ratios locked).

Not only would this be more realistic, but it would also help even the playing field and make it easier for newbies to learn the basics of car setup. And even full blown race cars don't have the near infinite adjustment of things like LFS has. Not even Sauber can change their final gearing by .01% or alter every single transmission gear for every single race. There are a limited number of input and output teeth which are used to determine ratio. This is how it is in the real world, and this is how LFS needs to be as well. Car setup is all about compromise and right now LFS misses a lot of that, due to the huge rate of adjustment it allows.

[Venus]

+1 for that. Good ideas :) Add an advanced/basic setup option so, the noobs can use simple method, n others can use the full blown asymetric setup options :)

V

[tinvek]

+1 for that. Good ideas :) Add an advanced/basic setup option so, the noobs can use simple method, n others can use the full blown asymetric setup options :)

V


agreed, grand prix used to have the simple and advanced setup options.

re individual wheel toe adjust, my road car has this as standard and it has been known for it to cause serious problems in the hands of some people, however it would be usefull to alter the handling balance between left and right hand curves but to be honest its probably a feature that woudlnt get used very much

[KeiichiRX7]

Cue-Ball, you can assert that when you can go buy yourself an XF GTi at the local Scavier Dealership. Lack of a roll cage mean lack of one being requird by regulations. Head over to your locl Auto cross met and you'll see lots of cars with no Roll Cage, and lots of adjustments that thier stock counterparts dont have. Just because it doesn't come from the factory like that Doesnt mean it shouldnt be made available in a racing sim environment. If i could go down to the local speedmart and buy 3-way adjustable shocks for my hot hatch, i shoul dhaev the option to do so for my XF GTi. Camber/Caster/toe plates? you betcha. Adjustble gearbox? Bingo (i'll admit the kind of precision available in LFS would be nigh on impossible for you ro get with off the shelf gears, but anyone with a machine shop could get pretty close.) Adjustable differential? well, you'd have to take it out and replace it with another one, but if you can do it, you can do it. Brake Bias and pressure? hell yes i can get the parts for that at Jegs for less than 200 bucks. Spring rate? Coil springs are a common commodity, not hard to get and actualyl pretty cheap.
Swaybars? hell yes, you can even bolt late model stock car swaybars under your car via an adapter kit (watch sports car revolution)

and you know what? if i wanted to spend the money i could even bolt a set of slicks on my crappy Mercury Sable.


And the last time you saw a car in racing team paint that was bone stock?

[Cue-Ball]

I don't disagree that these things are possible. But, they are not common and I don't believe that such modifications fit the devs vision for the road cars. I've seen a twin engine Hyundai before. Since that's *possible*, I suppose we should be able to do that in the game too, according to your logic? What is possible and what is plausible are two different things.

Like I said, if they were meant to be full-on race cars they would have rollcages and no stereos. Yes, you can take your grocery getter to an autocross and not worry about a rollcage. Yes, you can put on aftermarket suspension (which is why I suggested somewhat adjustable ride height, damping, etc). NO car can get the granularity of gear ratios and diff ratios that LFS offers right now. "Road cars", such as the ones in LFS, shouldn't have such things adjustable either. Who in their right mind would spend the money on a custom transmission or diff and springs that are EXACTLY the perfect ride height and stiffness for a particular track, but then not bother with a roll cage, leave the stereo intact, leave the engine bone stock, and keep the car on street tires?

I believe, as I think that most LFS players do, that the road cars are meant to be lightly modified daily driver cars. While some adjustment would be welcome, they should not be treated as race cars or cars with huge amounts of money in the suspension/transmission/diff/etc. This just isn't a likely scenario and is the whole reason that we have multiple classes for each car.

Simply put, LFS needs some cars that are less adjustable and easier to setup, to make it easier for people who are just starting out, to keep the fields even, and to stay true to what a road car is. Not to mention the fact that limiting setups could go a long way towards balancing the classes. I would certainly welcome a new group of cars though. Something between mostly stock road car and the all-out GTR cars that we have now. I would also support opening up all the cars to use slicks, as you mentioned. I think this would be good for everyone, even though you'd very seldom see the street tires used if that were to happen, IMO.

And we still need forced setups, or at least some way to have a "showroom stock" class race.

[JamesK]

Head over to your locl Auto cross met and you'll see lots of cars with no Roll CageOnly in club level stuff, the old 'showroom stock' Solo 2 competition autocross required a rollcage.

Even with considerable modification you can't adjust by the amounts/increments LFS has, not by a long shot! As an example look at the Baby Grand cars; they have a custom motorsport hot-swap diff setup, but only have a half-dozen or so final drive ratios to choose from.

[seinfeld]

I have to disagree with you, Keiichi. The road cars in this game are just that - road cars. They are not cup cars and not race cars. They have no rollcage and full interiors. As such, they should have only a very limited adjustment. Say, perhaps, three ride heights, five levels of damping, three ARB settings, and three final gear ratios (transmission ratios locked).

Not only would this be more realistic, but it would also help even the playing field and make it easier for newbies to learn the basics of car setup. And even full blown race cars don't have the near infinite adjustment of things like LFS has. Not even Sauber can change their final gearing by .01% or alter every single transmission gear for every single race. There are a limited number of input and output teeth which are used to determine ratio. This is how it is in the real world, and this is how LFS needs to be as well. Car setup is all about compromise and right now LFS misses a lot of that, due to the huge rate of adjustment it allows.

cue I think this game is for racing drivers, say for instance u owned a XR turbo and was a track car, of course ud have fully adjustable suspension on it, wouldnt you, this game is a perfect world simulation where u have already spent the $$$ and now ur ready to race

[Jamexing]

cue I think this game is for racing drivers, say for instance u owned a XR turbo and was a track car, of course ud have fully adjustable suspension on it, wouldnt you, this game is a perfect world simulation where u have already spent the $$$ and now ur ready to race

Glad someone has FINALLY figured this out (besides me). Who in their right mind would realistically drive a car in an all out race with absolutely NO preparation? Last time I checked, I could easliy obtain 2-way adjustable dampers from Koni at 300+AUD each.

[KeiichiRX7]

Good to see some agreement guys. I was starting to think I was quite alone on this one.

And Cue, don't you think if the devs intended for there to be less adjustment, there would be? I think Scavier can speak thier own minds on what thier vision for this project is.

[JTbo]

Wouldn't mind seeing XRG (stock) and XRG (Club racing) variants to choose from, first one with only adjustments possible like in real car would have and later to have for example current range of adjustments, however gears, springs etc have way too many options compared to real life, but one can order almost any gear ratio and almost any springs he likes.

For example to my RL car I can order springs what ever specs I like to and get dampers with 18 settings, or ones I can order by spec (guess why in my car there is no these things?), I can make parts to allow more negative camber that I can choose to be from certain range (how much there is space, haven't really checked that) etc. Of course not very cheap all this

I can get gearbox ordered with specs I like, but that is going to cost truckload of cash, also can get sequential box which costs again more.

So kind of way LFS having so much adjustability is right as it is possible to do so, if wallet is enough thick.

Maybe actually it can be made with setup support so that server can limit options to few where you can choose to emulate street car behaviour, at same time you could get limited setups by rules and forced setups, this way would not be too much work and everyone could be happy.

[bbman]

Wouldn't mind seeing XRG (stock) and XRG (Club racing) variants to choose from, first one with only adjustments possible like in real car would have and later to have for example current range of adjustments, however gears, springs etc have way too many options compared to real life, but one can order almost any gear ratio and almost any springs he likes.

So tell me, why would I choose the stock version over the club racing one then? :really:

[JTbo]

So tell me, why would I choose the stock version over the club racing one then? :really:

1) It separates mens from boys
2) It is more fun to have to come over limitations
3) It is more realistic if you like to race unmodified car
4) Only sissies and geeks choose club racing as they lack of true skill to drive such car, you can fix lack of driving skill with skills in setting up a car in lame club racing version, yeah right :razz:

Some people just like to have setup options plain and simple where you can just jump in and drive without spending days to optimize your driving and setup to be able to compete with other using weeks optimize their setups and driving with such setups. Don't know how you feel about such racing, I know it is not everyone's cup of tea.

[Cue-Ball]

And Cue, don't you think if the devs intended for there to be less adjustment, there would be?At this point, no. I think that it was quicker and easier to implement the adjustments that are there now and that is why it was done. Other than the UF1, most of the cars have the exact same adjustments. I think it was easier to put in minimums and maximums and allow everything in between. Defining a specific number of settings for each car would be time consuming and I think Scawen was more concerned with getting it in there than making it perfect on the first try.

Of course anyone COULD do any of the things that we can now do in LFS. If you were Bill Gates you could buy a totally custom suspension, transmission, etc. for your XRG for each track you want to run on. Is this something that would take place in real life? I think not.

As a few people have pointed out, getting an adjustable suspension, new shocks, new ARBs, etc. is not overly expensive. I think this is what the road cars are meant to be: lightly modified everyday cars. This is why I suggested suspension adjustment, just not to the level that the game currently permits. It's absurd to think that someone would buy a one-off transmission, costing thousands of dollars, completely adjustable suspension (caster, camber, ride height, spring rate, damping, etc.), an adjustable diff, brake bias controller, custom ARBs, etc. then put all that stuff in a 115hp FWD car, leaving the stereo and sound deadening in the car, and running around on grooved road tires. Does anyone really think this is a likely scenario?


I think the road cars need *some* adjustment, just like most of the cars that are autocrossed or used for track days. However, I do not think that what we have now is realistic, nor does it make for good racing. If anything, it only widens the gap between those who have the time and knowledge to spend on setups and those who do not. I think that should be left to the race cars and let the road cars be simpler and more straight forward.

I would love to hear Scavier's thoughts on this issue. I don't know Scawen or Eric personally, but I highly doubt that the current situation is what they intended.

[Gimpster]

Ok what I wrote before did not make any useful addition to this thread so I am re-writing my thoughs.

As far as the level aof adjustability and the costs infolved for a street car here is what I know. My car, a miata, from the factory has the ability to adjust the camber and toe. on the wheels. There are 2-3 final drive ratios that were avalable and depending on the year of transmission used there maybe three differnt ratios that were used on the 5 speed boxes. The only differences were in the first two gears and the difference were very minor.

For few thousand dollars I can get a fully adjustble suspension system which 20+ levels of damping adjustment + preload, several ARB choices and a few sets of springs. There are also a few choiced for aftermarket gearsets for the transmission that are more optimised for the power curve of the engine but each is over 3k.

Thats a lot of adjustment but is no where near what is abalable in LFS, Caster, Ackeman, Brake Bias & Pressure are not adjustable. Final drive is limited to 3 choices, an gear box ratios might as well be limited to 2 predefigned sets. The number of spring rates is also very limited as are the ARB choices. And thats all I have to work with. Everything become a ballancing act and the driver becomes more of the determining factor.

LFS allows adjustment in gear ratios down to 0.0001, and do do that you need like 10,000 teeth on the gear, you might be lucky if you have 100 in a real transmission. The number of teeth & there pitch determin the number of choices that exist. In LFS it is as if instead of gears we have friction wheels which we can very in very very small imcrements to optimise ratios and this is not in any way close to reality.

Patch W will be a multiplayer update as Scawen mentioned, avter that will be the incompatable. So the earliest I can see a fix to these issues is Patch X. As S2 has been said to be about the Cars this is the right time to take this step. Its time to recode the vehicle setup process and options, it time to move from infinate adjustbility to realistic values and number of choices. Its time to make it realistic.

[Venus]

Well this has turned into a full blown argument since last I popped in. lol

Firstly. I would hate for anyone to be suggesting that options be limited within LFS. I love all the setup options, and how fine they can be adjusted. It seems the problem you are having Cue-ball, is more a struggle with your own setup. Not a shot. I suggest then you read the basic/advanced section of the manual. Print it out like I did. It's all very simple to understand, and is really very interesting, not to mention practical. It not only explains what each option does, but how to use it.

As for the argument that street cars should be actually as factory delivered, and then just assume your too poor to modify it in any way; then I think thats really very lame, and missing the point of the Sim entirely. As mentioned already. It is assumed you've already modded it out. In real life, kids spend thousands of dollars modding their cars with god knows what junk.

As for creating an equalisation, well thats so simple to implement. It just needs an option for server to create a standard setup. I guess there are leagues out there that might like that, or people who can't setup a car. I think it'd be pretty boring myself. Truth is; its a racing sim. You are racing humans, and humans like to compete, and use any advantage they can (within the bounds of the sim), and setup is just one of those.

Sounds to me what you really want; is Need for Speed.

Venus

[Cue-Ball]

Firstly. I would hate for anyone to be suggesting that options be limited within LFS. I love all the setup options, and how fine they can be adjusted. It seems the problem you are having Cue-ball, is more a struggle with your own setup.That is not the case at all. The problem that I have is that the cars, as they stand now, are not the least bit like they would be in real life. Such gearing options would be, literally, impossible. And many of the other options would be possible, but at such a high price that nobody in their right mind would bother.

As for the argument that street cars should be actually as factory delivered, and then just assume your too poor to modify it in any way; then I think thats really very lame, and missing the point of the Sim entirely. And you are missing out point entirely, as nobody has said that the cars should be as factory delivered. Please do not put words in my mouth (or the mouths of others who agree). We are saying that the cars need to have realistic setup options. Setup options that are not only available in the real world, but that are attainable by people who are not billionaires.

As for creating an equalisation, well thats so simple to implement. It just needs an option for server to create a standard setup.On this point we agree.

Sounds to me what you really want; is Need for Speed.Sounds to me like you lack reading comprehension and/or don't know what the hell you are talking about.

[Venus]

lol maybe so. However, I think you are taking it way too seriously. Its not real life. Its a simulation, and of course you know that. In real life, I can feel how the car moves; does that mean that has to be implemented? Of course not. Its a Simulation, and yes, I agree with your point on gearing. However; since I have complete control over it now down to an nth degree; I am certainly not willing to give it up; just because you say we shouldn't have it cause it doesn't fit into what you perceive it should be about. Its a race sim. Personally; we don't have enough setup options.

I want packers, asymetric suspension setup; the ability to control brake bias in car plus a heap of other things.

Truth is, in car; you can change camber, tyre pressure, wings etc; but in real life of course you could never do that. Do I want it taken out just because of that? No way. The more options the better it is. :)

V

[JTbo]

That is not the case at all. The problem that I have is that the cars, as they stand now, are not the least bit like they would be in real life. Such gearing options would be, literally, impossible. And many of the other options would be possible, but at such a high price that nobody in their right mind would bother.


Explain me how these gearing options would be impossible?

Make assumption that you do have unlimited amount of cash and storage space.

Order 10 000 differently setup gearboxes and differentials or what ever amount of combinations there is and you have all the options.

Or think like this, you can order one to have those certain ratios from all those options in setup screen.

It is not impossible, but it is not likely IRL.

Sure would be great if you need to choose from few options that you take with you on track, but I think that is something never happening as I have understood that there is not too much interest over these role playing kind of things coming to LFS, which I find bit sad, I would love to get this and even more depth to it, so you have to really think how to you use your car as there would be only limited amount of parts that would be not so easy to get renewed to top shape.

[evilgeek]

interesting debate. i don't really see the need to take away any options from any of the cars. just pretend not to have them if you don't want them.

but as for adding config options / modeled components, i think the priorities should be:

1) differential preload
2) 4-way dampers
3) brake temps
4) oil and water temps

and maybe sometime in the far future:

-fuel maps

[Cue-Ball]

Explain me how these gearing options would be impossible?

Make assumption that you do have unlimited amount of cash and storage space.

Order 10 000 differently setup gearboxes and differentials or what ever amount of combinations there is and you have all the options.Even if you had unlimited funds there are still restrictions. Many of the gear ratios that are selectable in LFS are simply not possible. They would require gears larger or smaller than is possible or they would require more teeth than is possible. You simply CANNOT select every single tiny adjustment. It is physically impossible (in the real world). Even if you could, it's asinine to do so. And even if you DID have all the money in the world, making such changes would take time. Time that is not accounted for in LFS. In the game you can change ride height by .25" with a few clicks, but in the real world it would take time to adjust all of the springs on the car, to have new rearend gears produced, to create stiffer ARBs, etc.

I would like someone to explain to me how having thirty billion different gearing options is somehow better for the game or the driving experience. What is gained by having 500 ride height adjustments, rather than having 5 of them? What is gained by having 4000 rear end ratios instead of 5? All it does is add needless complexity. Not only are these options unrealistic, but they have bad effects on racing. Newbies have difficulty with setups. People who don't know how to do setup work are at a huge disadvantage. Everyone ends up managing hundreds of different setups for each car, just to stay competitive. How are these things good for the community or the racing?

[Gimpster]

I think the point Cue-Bal is trying to make is that as it is right now the level of adjustability is so high that the driver is not forced to make as many choices in the setup. This leads to a situation where everyone runs bases their sets of the WR sets. And setups can be so fine tuned that they drive exactly like the driver wants.

This has a net result of allowing those people with very good setup skills to create a car that is perfict for them while those that don't have such finely honed skills are left with having to addapt to a not ideal setup. The end result is races that are not very close and competitive which is the point of a sim like this. To have close and fun races.

By limiting setup options to more realistic values and number of choices drivers now will all have to make compromises and adapt to the limitatios of the setup options, this also brings the racing closer togeather and makes the racing more about your racing abilities and less about your setup. This is a good thing.

I do not see a problem with very granular setup option for the suspension, wheels, brakes and tires. I do think that the transmissions and diffs need to be modeled and their setup options adjucted to be in line with what is really posible in a real car. I just spent some looking and most of the gear boxes under 10k come with a choice of a few ratio sets and rear diffs come in with 5-10 ratio choices from most of the racing gearbox vendors I could find.

The only car in LFS that woudl use a box where indifidual gears can be altered indipendantly is the BF1 and even then you might have no more then 10 choices for ratios of any 1 gear. We do not need transmission and final drive ratio adjustability down to the 1/10000th. Model a real transmission with real teeth and let us adjust within real limitations.

[JamesK]

Its a simulation, a mathematical representation of an occurance in real life. To be an accurate simulation it should accurately represent the choices faced by real life crew chiefs. The available options are beyond those available to F1, rally, Nextel or even LeMans prototype teams ...

[JTbo]

Yes, I do think that limitations would be really a nice thing.
Problem is that specially with springs you can order whatever setting you like, now you don't have of course money to get all of possibilities, but easily few, which few from this to choose then?

There is perhaps not unlimited possibilities of gear ratios, but nearly enough to choose few from, again which one to choose?

And list goes on...

Certainly all mechanical limitations should be taken account and for example steering lock was reduced because of most cars don't have such high steering lock, some surely but quite few.

Perhaps again here is possibility to create something new and innovative instead of what we have already seen in sims past years?

Also when is limiting setup options best to do?
I think that we need to have solid and tested bug free physics and modelling of differentials etc. working as they should before we start to limit setup options as now with wide range of settings it is easier to cause some bugs show up (ARB bug and such).

[KartRacer]

This post was about realistic set-up options. It has nothing to do with whats fair for anyone, or who has a lot of money or anything like that.

I recently got a tour of Rahal-Letterman racing (IRL team). I asked him how often they change the differential settings.
He said, "at the ovals, almost never. At the road courses we have about 10 or so different settings to choose from."

I then asked him about changing gear ratios. He gave an example. If the wind changed direction for the race they could change the ratios and often do, but, they only change them if it is a signifigant difference in mph, say a 10mph head wind changes to the opposite direction.

If teams were to spend millions on as many gear ratios as possible (which is still currently less than in LFS), they wouldn't have any money for the car!

LFS is a simulation, it is simulating real world racing. In the real world setup options are not unlimited. But trust me, and I think some people might be missing this point; You will still have more adjustability than you will need.

Some points suggesting that having no limitations on street car settings would realistic are valid, but very weak. If we are going that far, then I should be able to take my passenger seat out,put slicks on my car, or change the track width or put a 6 speed tranny in the XF GTI or blah blah blah.
Yeah sure, that stuff is possible, but when I am tuning a car in LFS, I would like for me to picture someone doing the same thing, with the same car in real life aka...what I'm doing is SIMULATING something not only possible, but FEASIBLE.(not in the same time I do it, but the physical possibility)

-Limit the gear ratio and suspension adjustments on the street cars to FEASIBLE ranges and precision. I'm sure people will still argue what is feasible, but lets be honest, do you see someone in a VW GTI with full interior 140 odd horsepower, street tires, adjusting their differential by 1% at a track day? NO, its not possible or feasible.

The race cars need more setup OPTIONS and more realistic(less precise) ranges of adjustment.


Yes, the "don't stop progress until its bug-free" argument is a popular one and I agree, but these are not only changes in ranges for the options, but new options as well, and with more options comes more bugs. Physics first, everyone says here, well, physics first, differential physics, damper and suspension physics, chassis flex physics, these are integral parts of a racing simulation, they do not need to be done now, but they do need to be done and they should be, in my opinion, not to far down the 'to do list'.

-I love LFS, and everything about it. I love the way the dev's work. I am not suggesting they need to do these now. I am only suggesting that these options/changes should be on the list, for the better of LFS in general, the community and the general idea of a racing simulation.
:nod:

[JTbo]

What to choose, how to make it, simple and poor or complicated and rich?

Option 1 (rich):
After choosing car player could choose for example 5 setting packs of springs and dampers, 2 setting packs of gears and diffs from unlimited pool
Or 3 settings of spring packs and dampers, 2 setting packs of gears and 3 settings of diffs from unlimited pool.

Option 2(poor):
There is what there is, few settings each and that is it, not possible to choose from unlimited pool, car just has certain options and that is it.

For me these limitations feel like S3 stuff anyway, because physics and such should be solid until limitations should be applied, but sure those should be applied at some point at some way, for road cars limitations should be rather strict too, surely I would like to see different levels here so similar car with different suspension upgrades etc.

I can choose from 4 different differential ratios each around 50€ then if I like something more special it just costs more. Feasible is that I have two or three from rather large pool to choose from.

Feasible would be also to have 2 different sets of springs from again quite full range of options and adjustable dampers with 18 settings. Perfectly possible for otherwise perfectly standard car.

Adjustable brake balance is not a problem, could get such for rather ok price.

Removing seats could be nice option :razz:

But surely there should be way to limit this so that there would not be all of these in my garage but only those few, would be bit hard if I could not pick from all those possibilities that I could buy and could be odd if there would not be restrictions, how to solve this?

[KeiichiRX7]

Removing seats could change the class of the car. And I have no problem with changign the number of gear ratios available to only those possible with current engineering, but i still wanna have those options.

differential gears should be the same. Call DANA and you can order any of thier diffs with the gears of your choice. if i need a 4.567:1 ratio and the closest i can buy is a 4.57:1 i'll take it. no problem with that. (in preparation for a rce you could calculate pretty closely what gears would be close to what you need, but no need to limit what i take to the track)

Dampers, like was said, these can be and in many cases ARE built to spec for racing. same precision as pro teams but no more? fine. do i still want full control over my suspension? hell yes.

keep this goign on down the list and we could get along. GTi and Clubman versions of the car could be interesting

[Bob Smith]

I would like to see more mechanically based adjustments, like we would choose the teeth on the gears, which determine the ratio, rather than picking a random ratio directly.

Likewise I'd like to pick ramp angles and clutches for the diffs rather than just picking a locking factor.

One question is in a sim, where you can do anything, would you want to constrain yourself to the same limitations that engineers would like to escape in real life?

[Not Sure]

what he said ^

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

One question is in a sim, where you can do anything, would you want to constrain yourself to the same limitations that engineers would like to escape in real life?

Based on that logic, why bother including damage of any sort in LFS? I'm sure that engineers would also like unbreakable parts of every kind, but they have to work with limitations that real life imposes.

[Bob Smith]

I'd say that component damage is a hell of a lot more essential to recreating the spirit and feel or real racing, than worrying about if certain gear ratios exist in real life.

[undertech]

Couldn't insim be used to do all this? (settings restrictions)

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

I'd say that component damage is a hell of a lot more essential to recreating the spirit and feel or real racing, than worrying about if certain gear ratios exist in real life.

Well, obviously that's true. I'm just saying that overcoming limitations imposed by RL just because it's a sim also detracts from the spirit and feel of real racing, because those limitations are an important part of the racing experience overall.

This isn't a case of extra information compensating for lack of feel, it's something that affects competition and begins to separtate setup artists from drivers - and LFS is about competition on the track.

I don't know for sure what side of this fence I'm on to be honest. I'm not so concerned with what would be readily available for the cars in question if they were real, but rather what could possible be made for them with money being no object. That being said, it would seem odd to be able to select from any set of ratios period, and not upgrade to a 6 speed box from a 5. So with continuity in mind, I would say that only a couple of diffs and very limited number (3?) sets of ratios should be available for road cars. Second highest gear would always need to be 1:1, and the highest gear an overdrive to be consistent with most roadgoing cars.

Actually, this is quite complex to think about what the limitations really should be. There's more to it than meets the eye :scratchch

[Bob Smith]

The 5 vs 6 speed issue is a good point.

[KeiichiRX7]

part of why I thought that "street" and "club racing" versions would be a good idea.

Quick change gearboxes are available in 5 speed, so i dont really see why 5 vs 6 is a big deal on the street cars. My issue is that if it's there i want to be able to adjust it.

[Linsen]

I don't really understand how people could want the most realistic racing sim possible and at the same time want unrealistic (or call it unplausible, if you like, which is essentially the same) setup options. That's clearly a contradiction. The feeling I'm getting here is, that the dismissal or approval of certain features is dictated by personal preference rather than objectivity. People who like tinkering with an infinite amount of setup options just want them because *they* like them. Others want to be able to use an H-shifter with the BF1 - I doubt too many of the "infinite-setup-option-supporters" would say, sure, why not. It's a sim, so we can do whatever we like. It doesn't matter if an F1-car doesn't have it in rL.

As has been pointed out before, the argument of the perfect (yet unrealistic) environment a sim is capable of providing is not valid at all. And I'm really surprised that it has been brought up at all (considering that we're supposedly all here because we want realism) - that is the NFS-approach and not the other way around.

So, bottom line for me is: Make this sim as realistic/plausible as possible and compromise where necessary due to real life limitations (mostly dictated by hardware).

[undertech]

Leave the base system alone, and let server operators decide if they want setup restrictions or not.

Everyone is happy.

[KartRacer]

All I'm saying is that LFS is a simulation...we can all agree upon that right?

What is it simulating, car racing in real life or car racing in a unlimited fantasy world?

I love tinkering with setups and I actually want more options for the race cars (more realistic) but I want the precision of options to be realistic as well.

If you want infinite gear ratios, then why not infinite down force options adjustable by the tenth of a degree? Weird....thats very similar to how are differential settings are now, and I think that needs fixed...ramp angles etc.

I feel that a lot of hardcore sim/racing fans that open LFS up and see...differential changes by %, infinitely adjustable gear ratios, max pressures, along with a lack of some options, might be turned off.

When LFS goes to say, Sauber, and says "hey, what gear ratios can you guys use in the car?", and they say "almost any, but heres a list." I'm sorry but I personally would rather have the list and know that I'm tinkering with settings that CAN be tinkered with in r/l.

The precise adjustments wasn't even my point with this thread. It was to point out that we are missing some options and need to change some that we have...not to the exact point of how you/how much you change them, but you got my side of the story anyway. I'm lost.