Live for speed modding capabilities??

[Sgt.Gunlee]

[U]I've read alot about Live for speed modding and I must say I am seriously thinking about not buying live for speed s3 if modding is not allowed. Modding is a very important success in many games and I'm here to tell you about one 10 dollar game changed into a game that has a 50 thousand member site just based on this game. Its called street legal redline and it's a big modding franchise there. The modding made the game, it use to have like 10 people playing this game when first released but since modding it most likley has over 500 playing this game todate. Street legal is a open game for modding and www.Gom-team.com has made the game what it is today. They've remade the game is what I'm pointing at. They are adding new cars, phyics, tracks, modes. Now I'm not saying live for speed needs this but hell it would make alot of people buy this game and have interest.
[edit: underlining removed]

[joen]

please use the search, this has been discussed to death, and the same pros and cons come up everytime. we will just have to wait and see.

[tristancliffe]

If opening LFS to modding means more people who use underlined garbage as a medium of conversation, then that just seals it.

Some games NEED modding to work (rCraptor for example, which would be nothing without mods as the dev team have zero understanding of car dynamics, although it is only just above nothing WITH modding), others don't.

LFS doesn't need it at all.

If it happens, I hope there is a way to stop people like you being able to mod it - perhaps a £100 Dev-Kit fee and licence.

[fragile_dog]

Whats needed is a community who wants quality. Look at unreal tourny, how many mods are made for that game (christ i made one :/) And how many are succesful? Not many, but the ones that are are pretty damn good (if you've never played clone bandits for ut2k4 then I highly recomend it, just so much fun :D)

Easy way of stopping mods from ruining lfs imo is the UT way, when you want to run a mod, you run the lfs exe with some command line parameter (well another icon really) and you can only see other servers with that mod. Stops it crossing over into the pure lfs world, and stops all the conflicts etc, you got the latest version of a mod you'll see servers (if its a quality mod).

Dunno how that would work with tracks. But for full mods (not single cars) then i feel it would work quite well. And let people who just want lfs with no crap that option :).

fd

[Pain-less]

Some games NEED modding to work (rCraptor for example, which would be nothing without mods as the dev team have zero understanding of car dynamics, although it is only just above nothing WITH modding), others don't.

LFS doesn't need it at all.


:x

[joen]

May I interest you in one of the countless threads about this subject which last reply was just today?

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=20114

[geeman1]

I must say I am seriously thinking about not buying live for speed s3 if modding is not allowed. Good luck with that. We don't need you.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Not this again.

All modding will do is ruin the point of LFS: fair, accessible competition. LFS already has the greatest diversity of car types in any sim to date, all of which actually behave quite properly to begin with.

Should Scavier decide to do so; once S3 is complete I'm sure content could be properly developed and churned out quite quickly. First we need infrastructure, not content. I still hope LFS is never opened to modding, at least not for online use. Offline might be fun to mess with now & then as an academic excersise.

[The General Lee]

Please use my avatar!

I've wanted to say that for ages!

[JTbo]

There is one long good discussion already in improvement suggestions area, can't see any point with this thread and this should be locked away.

We surely can discuss in one thread and that will save my KB great deal as I have written pretty much to there already and so have others, we have issue quite well covered for now I would say?

[Sgt.Gunlee]

Hey dicks calm down, jesus, mine was stated with facts you ignorant morons. You don't go flamming someone for a idiotic reason as you did. I was stating my opinion which I have the right to do.

[Hankstar]

The thing is, LFS has been around 4 or so years and has steadily built up a loyal fan base. It still surprises me (and obviously annoys others) when people who've been into it for a couple of months think they're the first to think of modding it and start a thread about it (it seems especially annoying when it's posted in the wrong section too). So don't take offense, this topic gets raised every month or so (much like Jason Voorhees) and pretty much gets shot down every single time. The locals can get a bit snipped when people don't search to see if something's been mentioned before.

LFS is a sim focused on accurate physics and online racing and not the blingy homeboy arcadey stuff you'll see in NFSU or whatever. Its fans don't generally get turned on by taglines like this:

"The streets come alive after the sun goes down, and you're behind the wheel of a high octane, super charged import that takes no prisoners! This is where the street separates the men from the boys! Are you ready to race for respect or is life just passing you by?"

To be quite honest, that's a bit of a wank. Hell, it could almost be an EA game with a tag like that :D

But, *sigh*, I'm simply not ready to race for respect. I guess that means life is passing me by :shrug:

[JTbo]

Hey dicks calm down, jesus, mine was stated with facts you ignorant morons. You don't go flamming someone for a idiotic reason as you did. I was stating my opinion which I have the right to do.

Please, at least try to think twice before posting, you won't gain nothing by insulting people.

[joen]

Nobody said you don't have the right to state your opinion. But to start yet another thread about this subject (with no new unheard arguments by the way) is not necessary, especially since there's an already active thread about it.
I don't see how your thread overloaded with "facts" brings anything new to the table.
Calling names won't help you either.

[Sgt.Gunlee]

Nobody said you don't have the right to state your opinion. But to start yet another thread about this subject (with no new unheard arguments by the way) is not necessary, especially since there's an already active thread about it.
I don't see how your thread overloaded with "facts" brings anything new to the table.
Calling names won't help you either.

Ya just like they called me name lol, you guys raise such good reasons. I bet no topic stated what I stated.

[JTbo]

Ya just like they called me name lol, you guys raise such good reasons. I bet no topic stated what I stated.

Yes, there is topics that have stated same things, perhaps not using same games but idea has been same, sorry but you really should take a look at thread at improvement suggestions area, read it trough and after that think if you have something to add to all that, it is several pages long so there is surely lot of talk.

Can we have a lock please? :)

[joen]

Ya just like they called me name lol,

Who? Where?

And even if that would be the case it doesn't mean you should do it. Two wrongs don't make a right.


you guys raise such good reasons. I bet no topic stated what I stated.
I'll raise you.

Even so, if you brought up some new arguments, does it need a whole new thread when there's already one about the same discussion?

Anyway, can we have a lockSMITH (Bob)?

[XCNuse]

Nobody said you don't have the right to state your opinion.
these guys did: :inq:

[Hankstar]

Ya just like they called me name lol, you guys raise such good reasons. I bet no topic stated what I stated.

I dunno dude, you basically stated that there's a car game out there that has modding in it, and that LFS might get more fans if it had modding in it too. It's pretty close to what a lot of pro-mod posters have said many times before in the past 4 years. All you did was mention a different game :shrug: The fact is, it's an old, old topic that never really gets a lot of support.

Now where's that lock? :scratchch

[bbman]

If it's the "street legal redline" I know, it definitely needed modding, as the base was appauling... (Ricer-game... :sour: )

[wheel4hummer]

If it's the "street legal redline" I know, it definitely needed modding, as the base was appauling... (Ricer-game... :sour: )

Street legal redline is the worst game I have ever played. Yes, even worse then Need For Speed Carbon! Graphics are terrible, but I get 10fps in it anyway. The physics are so bad that I can't find words to describe them. And, the tuning.... More "part x = +20HP" shit. It is so bad that it isn't even funny. Good thing I didn't buy the game... :x

[Cue-Ball]

The best thing about LFS is that you can jump online and immediately connect to a server. There's no worry about mismatched tracks or someone with a 10,000hp car. I do not want to see LFS opened to mods.

However; I would like to see the devs utilize the community more. With the tools available today, and the number of talented people on this forum, we could probably have dozens of qualitytracks and cars in the game in no time. The devs would simply have to review and approve the submissions. Hell, I'd be willing to pay good money for a few new tracks if the devs would just put them in the game.

[_--NZ--_[HUN]]

Street Legal devs were forced to finish the game development before it was ready to be published. They made the game in 6 months. It has a pretty complex engine but they didn't have time to polish it.

[JTbo]

The best thing about LFS is that you can jump online and immediately connect to a server. There's no worry about mismatched tracks or someone with a 10,000hp car. I do not want to see LFS opened to mods.

However; I would like to see the devs utilize the community more. With the tools available today, and the number of talented people on this forum, we could probably have dozens of qualitytracks and cars in the game in no time. The devs would simply have to review and approve the submissions. Hell, I'd be willing to pay good money for a few new tracks if the devs would just put them in the game.

You too should read that modding thread at improvement suggestions and after reading it think :D

There is no point to discuss about modding here when we already do have one thread for it.

Anyway really can't get it why people always assume that modding = mismatches, just go and read that other thread before posting anything here and after reading post to that other thread :schwitz: :D

HERE (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=20114) is link to all lazy people (like myself), now stop posting your ideas about modding to this thread, I certainly don't see point to split discussion.

[Cue-Ball]

You too should read that modding thread at improvement suggestions and after reading it think :DI already read that thread. You appear to be one of the few who think modding is a good idea.

Anyway really can't get it why people always assume that modding = mismatches, Because past experience tells us that it does. Take a look at any of the games where modding is reasonably easy. rFactor is a mess, with multiple versions of each track, multiple versions of the same mod, etc. Even games like GTR and GTL which are a little more difficult end up with tons of crap. Look at No-grip and see how many cars are released for those games. GTL basically has two dozen Mustangs (the Gran Turismo of the PC sim world?), some with bright purple paint or "low rider" schemes. Many of the tracks are straight ports from old games with horrible textures. Nobody can agree which version of the track is "correct", so you end up with three different versions.

Modding is 90% crap and 10% diamonds. Keeping control of the game in the hands of the designers keeps the crap out. We just need to find a way to let the diamonds in.

[SamH]

Hey [insults/namecalling removed..] I was stating my opinion which I have the right to do.
Mind your manners. You can state your opinion. You cannot deliver a torrent of abuse.

@geeman1: could be nicer.

[JTbo]

I already read that thread. You appear to be one of the few who think modding is a good idea.

Because past experience tells us that it does. Take a look at any of the games where modding is reasonably easy. rFactor is a mess, with multiple versions of each track, multiple versions of the same mod, etc. Even games like GTR and GTL which are a little more difficult end up with tons of crap. Look at No-grip and see how many cars are released for those games. GTL basically has two dozen Mustangs (the Gran Turismo of the PC sim world?), some with bright purple paint or "low rider" schemes. Many of the tracks are straight ports from old games with horrible textures. Nobody can agree which version of the track is "correct", so you end up with three different versions.

Modding is 90% crap and 10% diamonds. Keeping control of the game in the hands of the designers keeps the crap out. We just need to find a way to let the diamonds in.

You insists discussing here instead of original thread, fine let's split conversation then.

There has been 0 games so far where modding has been planned. They just have left everything open, no wonder there is complete mess.

As I have said about 100 times already, modding does not mean mess when it is done properly and when things are planned. Think, use imagination, don't just except it goes with same tracks as everyone else has done, LFS devs are much more capable to understand key issues and for most there is will to create new, make things work, do everything better.

If you really have read that other thread and understand points there has been made you would understand that bringing up rFactor as an example is pointless, there they just left all files open with hardly any documentation, modder have to be engineer level at least to make mod that is even semi right and still there is great deal of things where it is not sure how they use data. That is fine example of how not to do it.

Modding is actually quite new in bigger scale so no wonder first efforts have gone wrong, but now there is examples showing how not to do it.

Read more about that thread, there is lot of stuff, understand that all, understand that modding does not mean end of original content, it can be made so that you can be perfectly well not aware that there is mods.

[Hankstar]

I think you were right the first time - it's probably better to not split the discussion. This isn't the right section for it anyway :shrug:

[Woz]

You insists discussing here instead of original thread, fine let's split conversation then.

There has been 0 games so far where modding has been planned. They just have left everything open, no wonder there is complete mess.

Apart from Unreal and Quake family of games I guess. UT even included editors etc out of the box.

As I have said about 100 times already, modding does not mean mess when it is done properly and when things are planned. Think, use imagination, don't just except it goes with same tracks as everyone else has done, LFS devs are much more capable to understand key issues and for most there is will to create new, make things work, do everything better.

If you really have read that other thread and understand points there has been made you would understand that bringing up rFactor as an example is pointless, there they just left all files open with hardly any documentation, modder have to be engineer level at least to make mod that is even semi right and still there is great deal of things where it is not sure how they use data. That is fine example of how not to do it.

Modding is actually quite new in bigger scale so no wonder first efforts have gone wrong, but now there is examples showing how not to do it.

Read more about that thread, there is lot of stuff, understand that all, understand that modding does not mean end of original content, it can be made so that you can be perfectly well not aware that there is mods.

Until S3 is out this thread is just pointless and S2 final is not even on the radar yet.

Modding WILL NOT HAPPEN until then because if allowed now it would mean the developers would need to think about the impact on mods of any changes they make. This increases the workload no end and delays the release of S3.

The LFS world database will have to log stats for mod based content otherwise it again is pointless. This means only final release of mods can be allowed to stop the normal hack, release, hack, release cycle of 99% of the modders out there.

Unless there is tight dev control over modding content it will be a mess and kill LFS and LFS World. Throuble is that if the devs do control which mods can be used etc it means NO LICENCED content will be allowed in LFS because that would mean the devs have given their OK. This is the same issue as the devs including a BMW M3 without a licence from BMW.

LFS World and how the online game works makes LFS more than any crappy 3rd party crappy mod ever will. A good mod take a team of people to put together, test on multiple platforms with beta test teams and then release and maintain in a controlled manner.

[undertech]

There're SO many other games out there that allow wanton modding like the aforementioned (and super awful) Street Legal, why don't the complainers go to any one of those games instead of crying here? (time and again, it seems like.)


Hint: They like this game for what it is. Yes, deep down, they do. That's a good sign wouldn't you all say?

[danowat]

Modding makes baby Jesus cry

[JTbo]

Apart from Unreal and Quake family of games I guess. UT even included editors etc out of the box.



Until S3 is out this thread is just pointless and S2 final is not even on the radar yet.

Modding WILL NOT HAPPEN until then because if allowed now it would mean the developers would need to think about the impact on mods of any changes they make. This increases the workload no end and delays the release of S3.

The LFS world database will have to log stats for mod based content otherwise it again is pointless. This means only final release of mods can be allowed to stop the normal hack, release, hack, release cycle of 99% of the modders out there.

Unless there is tight dev control over modding content it will be a mess and kill LFS and LFS World. Throuble is that if the devs do control which mods can be used etc it means NO LICENCED content will be allowed in LFS because that would mean the devs have given their OK. This is the same issue as the devs including a BMW M3 without a licence from BMW.

LFS World and how the online game works makes LFS more than any crappy 3rd party crappy mod ever will. A good mod take a team of people to put together, test on multiple platforms with beta test teams and then release and maintain in a controlled manner.

I don't believe to tight dev control as that will never happen in first place.

FPS games do have tad different userbase, also there are editors and editors, Racer comes with shipped editors too, that means nothing if there is editor or not when usability is around same and when you can make same faults over and over again.

More work to devs it is sure, but also there should be also price tag, sure 100 is tough price, but I would pay that.

And you can't except to get 100% quality never, sure LFS is under development, but RAC handling anyone?
Anyone can make crap, there always is possibility of error, always there is some kid that puts out crap, so what, I would say that getting quality releases to 60% is already good, there are ways to get bad apples out.
Can't name single driving game/sim where original content has been good and it would had modding possibilities.

Also I don't think that LFS World should record any stats from mods, that is only for original content and mods should be just alternative not main case. It may have some other use, but I would think bit better method.

Might surprise but planning for modding have to be started before S3 is ready and what about if it will slow down S3? Is it bad because you would like to get everything right now no matter if it will be much less of product? I'm sure that until we see S3 there has been long time and if it is year later won't really matter in this time scale.

Why game with best physics should have possibility to make own content? Hmm, let me think, I really can't tell, oh yes it would be nice to even once get sim where you actually could make car that looks same as at your parking lot that actually is possible to make so that it also handles at least close to same thing. There is more than one crazy car enthusiast out there that shares similar ideas.

Still I don't get it why in hell we are talking in this thread that should have been locked in day one, well we can now talk same thing over and over and over and over and over again. Maybe that is what nay sayers would like, so they can say nay enough many times ? :razz:

[undertech]

As long as there are forums, there will be the select 5-7 repeat topics.

:smileypul

[joen]

Might surprise but planning for modding have to be started before S3 is ready

Why?


and what about if it will slow down S3? Is it bad because you would like to get everything right now no matter if it will be much less of product?

LFS will not be much less of a product without modding to me at all.


I'm sure that until we see S3 there has been long time and if it is year later won't really matter in this time scale.


Maybe not to you, but it would matter to me, and I think a lot of people. Ì don´t have a big desire for mods so waiting for that would definitely be frustrating.

And I do think that if modding would come, it would have to be integrated into LFSWorld, as it is one of the defining(and to me one of the most important) features.

All in all, I will repeat the only thing the mods have said about modding in LFS: maybe we will get it, but not before S3.
So clearly, it isn´t that necessary to start on it before S3. Besides there are lots of things that have to be done before S3 that are much more important.

[DodgeRacer]

There're SO many other games out there that allow wanton modding like the aforementioned (and super awful) Street Legal, why don't the complainers go to any one of those games instead of crying here? (time and again, it seems like.)


Hint: They like this game for what it is. Yes, deep down, they do. That's a good sign wouldn't you all say?


my guess is because they realize this is the best sim out there currently, and want to have the best platform to mod off of, to an outsider its probably very confusing this whole no modding thing

[Becky Rose]

LFS it the most modded racing simulator currently on the market.

We dont have new cars or track mods and we dont need the physics mods that some sims have to have.

What we have is feature mods, and we have more of them than any other sim going. Show me another simulator that has an active RACING community like LFS does, show me another simulator that has an active DRIFTING community, a COPS N ROBBERS community, a CITY DRIVING community...

When I fire up LFS for a league race, I have a mod that tells me when to pit, when to change up gears, I have one that gives me radio messages on the race around me and tells me who i'm lapping and who i'm racing against, I have crowd noise and I hear the tannoys as I zip past them, i'm totally immersed by mods. Likewise I could have mods for my steering wheel/keyboard (if indeed I had a momoLed wheel or G15 keyboard). I then go online and race on a server running a licence mod, a driver aids mod, a track rotation mod and so on. I race on tracks with texture mods against cars with custom textures.

LFS has more mods than any other racing simulator, period.

We just dont have car and track mods. Car mods we dont particularly need as LFS has car types - and because we can skin the cars ourselves that means we have as many cars as we could possibly ever want.

Tracks we have more active and used online multiplayer tracks than any other sim - all ours are original content, other sims rely on mods to get good multiplayer race tracks that people want to play on - and consequently have less active multiplayer tracks and version mismatch problems and so on.

So to say LFS is unmoddable is just outright ludicrous - it lets us mod the things that make sense to mod. It doesnt allow modding of the things which would screw up the multiplayer.

[Gunn]

Where did Becky Rose get all the clarity pills from? Good medicine.

[JTbo]

Why?

Making sim moddable properly is lot more work than just opening some files so that someone can edit them with notepad, that I don't want to see in LFS never.

There is lot of things that are need to be planned, also many effect how final product is built, one thing I would like to see is that there would be lfs mods and lfs original choice or perhaps own exe for both, to keep original content completely separated from mods.

So if they make S3 final they would need to change it quite a lot for modding (would be almost S4 then) or else it will be mess like in rFactor and every other sim or game where it has been made without planning.

It is also easier to design modding into sim early than late phase of development.

[VT-1]

Modding is a really tough subject. I have all the "Major" sims. GTL, RFactor, GTR2, and LFS.

Of all the sims, LFS is by far my favorite. It just feels better then the rest in my opinion. And not by a small margin.

I really do not think that adding cars will be a big factor to me, but being able to add tracks would be huge.

I love Limrock Park, I have raced there a few times in real life, and would love to race it in LFS. A Fox on Limerock would be great. I am sure there are other tracks that would also add a great deal to LFS.

Adding cars is not as big a deal to me. The reason is that i have found that most sims do not take into account enough paramiters to make it 100%, so in the end, we do not have an exact copy simulated, but an interpratation of the real thing. And to that end, the cars in LFS are more then enough. Like i said, they just feel right.

Perfect example, A few months back, my wife bought me a "Nascar Experience" (For the record, i hate Nascar) What that entailed was a day of training, and 10 hotlaps in a Nextel Cup Car. Very fun!! Well, a few weeks ago, my Team wanted to try a new Nascar Mod on RFactor. It looked great, it sounded great, the tracks are fantastic. the car feels nothing at all like what i drove a few months back. Not even close.

Left a bad taste in my mouth.

But a fox at limerock still sound great!

[joen]

Making sim moddable properly is lot more work than just opening some files so that someone can edit them with notepad, that I don't want to see in LFS never.

I realise that. If LFS would ever be made moddable an SDK would have to be released.


There is lot of things that are need to be planned, also many effect how final product is built,

Well, I feel the final product has to be build first and then it´s " just" a matter of releasing a " consumer version" of the development tools the devs make use of.
Possible mods shouldn´t influence the way the final product is built, but the other way around imo.

Anyway, the devs probably know the best way to deal with it, no need for us to worry about.

[JTbo]

I realise that. If LFS would ever be made moddable an SDK would have to be released.



Well, I feel the final product has to be build first and then it´s " just" a matter of releasing a " consumer version" of the development tools the devs make use of.
Mods shouldn´t influence the way the final product is built, but the other way around imo.

Anyway, the devs probably know the best way to deal with it, no need for us to worry about.

Only way to make sure modding is not what it has been in every other game is to integrate some things tightly to game, not just give tools out to hands of those who have no idea about car dynamics. I wish that they never release their development tools, such freedom will lead to disaster.

Modding should be only possible trough official tools and tools should be made so that you don't need to be engineer to get things correct. That would mean that there are lot of limits and that is one price to pay.

Also there are several things that game has to have, ingame downloading, some rating system which can't be similar to rFactorcentral uses for example, etc. Like I said many things and lot need to be designed into game.

S3 maybe in 6 years, if that is 7 years instead, it is not big deal for me, hopefully nobody is not dreaming to see S3 in 2 years as that is not going to happen :P

I'm sure devs will think about all issues, at least I hope, no I beg them to think all issues in advance and not to make same mistakes as others have done.

[al heeley]

S3 maybe in 6 years...
I reckon there will have been such immense advances in 6 years that S2 will be unrecognisable or unplayable in its current form, in which case it might as well be shelved and something new started from scratch to take advantage of the latest DX15 technology.

[joen]

not just give tools out to hands of those who have no idea about car dynamics.

Luckily LFS differs a lot from other sims concerning physics. Most others have a physics model for every car, faking it to behave in a certain way. LFS has a universal realtime physics model which applies to all cars, so it would do the same with custom made cars AFAIK.
Mod creators should definitely not be allowed to define any physics parameters.


I wish that they never release their development tools, such freedom will lead to disaster.
Ofcourse they would have to release dev tools, how are people supposed to make mods without them?
Sure they would have to be restricted, hence why I said a consumer version.


Modding should be only possible trough official tools and tools should be made so that you don't need to be engineer to get things correct. That would mean that there are lot of limits and that is one price to pay.
See my above two points, modmakers should not be allowed to touch physics aspects. Just create the car, set the car parameters and let LFS´ physics engine do it´s work.
I realize I´m simplifying this.


S3 maybe in 6 years, if that is 7 years instead, it is not big deal for me, hopefully nobody is not dreaming to see S3 in 2 years as that is not going to happen :P

How can you be so sure?
I don´t expect S3 soon, but 7 years would be way too long. I suspect the S3 stage to take less time than S2, as S2 is mainly physics driven and S3 is thought to be mainly content driven, which I suspect to be a less complex task.


I'm sure devs will think about all issues, at least I hope, no I beg them to think all issues in advance and not to make same mistakes as others have done.
I´m pretty sure the devs are really not thinking about modding at all at the moment. They never said it will be moddable in the first place. I think they want (and should) S2 finished first and then we´ll see what happens.

[al heeley]

It's important to remember that there is always natural culling of mods (not moderators:tilt: ) by the community that helps preserve only the good stuff, yet I agree on the whole with the argument in keeping LFS pure until the project has reached the end of its natural life.

[JTbo]

My estimate of 6 years can't be wrong, at least when I don't reduce years every year as some do :D

If LFS will not have possibility to mod, then I buy my own version of LFS from them, just like Intel did :)

Even modding would require some work before S3, of course modding itself should not be never be available before S3 final has been done, hmmm, well, I guess it would actually be in S3 final, well worthless for me to think about that.

Do you know what it does mean when rFactor modder talks about making physics of cars?
It means spring rates, damper rates, car weight, weight distribution, etc. etc. Only tires and some inertias are actually even a close about actual physics and even there you can't touch physics engine itself, only parameters of cars.

Yes development tools, but not their versions, too complicated to use and not providing enough control.

Editors should not allow inertia to be typed for example as it is possible to calculate from parameters quite well, really lot of stuff to think about, but basically editor should not be able to let anyone produce unrealistic car.

Same with track editor, there is many things that can be made make sure one can't make stupid tracks. How ever if someone says that this track is Imola there is no way to make sure that it is accurate imola, there we need again another method how to end life of such works.

As I have written to original thread and I still don't get it why it is so hard to discuss there in original thread, why we need to do it in here again from start and over and over and over again.

[Cue-Ball]

As I have written to original thread and I still don't get it why it is so hard to discuss there in original thread, why we need to do it in here again from start and over and over and over again.Because you won't take no for an answer.

[Cue-Ball]

I agree with most of your post. LFS has more non-track, non-car mods than probably any other sim. InSim is a wonderful thing.

When I fire up LFS for a league race, I have a mod that tells me when to pit, when to change up gears, I have one that gives me radio messages on the race around me and tells me who i'm lapping and who i'm racing against, I have crowd noise and I hear the tannoys as I zip past them, i'm totally immersed by mods.Speaking of which, are you going to continue development on LFS Companion? You said that you were stopping, then said you weren't. I still use it myself and was just curious. I'm also curious if you plan to release your server side tools to disable the use of driving aids. I'm very interested in such a thing. I got something a while back from another user (MonkOnAHotTinRoof) but have had a hard time getting it to run without crashing. Any chance of us seeing your version?

We just dont have car and track mods. Car mods we dont particularly need as LFS has car types - and because we can skin the cars ourselves that means we have as many cars as we could possibly ever want.This is the one thing in your post that I vehemently disagree with. While I don't want to see LFS opened to modding, I certainly don't have all the cars I could ever want. We've got no rally car, we've got no V8s, no sedans, no mid-engine cars, no trucks, no buggies, no drag cars, etc, etc, etc. I love LFS and choose it over all other sims, but it still needs a lot of car types to be anywhere near complete. The same is true for tracks. We've got no ovals, no dirt tracks, no hill climb, no off-road, etc.

[joen]

My estimate of 6 years can't be wrong, at least when I don't reduce years every year as some do :D

Ok, and why is that? What do you know more about LFS than others to make you so confident that it isn't possible that you're wrong about something?
I expect hard evidence now.


If LFS will not have possibility to mod, then I buy my own version of LFS from them, just like Intel did :)
What makes you think they're selling?
Besides, Intel didn't buy their own version of LFS. The content is exactly the same, they just made a trade with the devs. They get the BF1 in the game, Intel could use LFS on their tour.
AFAIK, no money whatsoever was involved.


Yes development tools, but not their versions, too complicated to use and not providing enough control.

Not enough control? I hope the control will be as limited as possible.
And I hope the tools would be complicated to use. That way real effort has to be put in it and that could partially prevent quickly thrown together crap mods being released.
That's the reason why there are such high quality mods for GPL, and very little crap. It's because the game wasn't even meant to be modded. Only the diehards and talented people kept on trying.


Editors should not allow inertia to be typed for example as it is possible to calculate from parameters quite well, really lot of stuff to think about, but basically editor should not be able to let anyone produce unrealistic car.
No matter what editor, it will always be possible to create an unrealistic car. I could model a car in the shape of a pear and make it drive, that doesn't mean it's a realistic car.


Same with track editor, there is many things that can be made make sure one can't make stupid tracks.

Such as? If there are tools to lay down tarmac and grass and create elevation, people can make totally unrealistic tracks with that.


As I have written to original thread and I still don't get it why it is so hard to discuss there in original thread, why we need to do it in here again from start and over and over and over again.
I agree, but you keep posting here as well. So ask yourself that question :shrug:

[Motörhead V8]

after s3 is out, why not allow only track modding, we get some REAL LIFE tracks?
with a quality control probably some good stuff would be released.

i see the point of view of yours, if modding is allowed a lot of crap would be released, also online racing will become very confusing with a lot of mods around.
but if we have a team of modders, allowed(right word?) by scavier to make mods, only good mods would come out

and who wouldn't like to race a fzr(maybe a lx8:scratchch) on Nordschleife ? :tilt:

[joen]

after s3 is out, why not allow only track modding, we get some REAL LIFE tracks?

One word: licenses.

It doesn't really matter if these mods are made by other people than Scavier. If modding would be made possible there would be one (IMO) very important condition. And that is, all content should be part of an automatic update system. So LFS itselfs keeps your content up to date whenever version 1.0.2.3 of mod XYZ is released. People should not have to visit some freewebs site somewhere to be able to get the new version through rapidshare or something like that just to connect to a certain server. Meaning, the devs would condone the distribution of these mods. Therefore real life cars and tracks would not be able to be distributed to prevent the devs of getting into trouble.


with a quality control probably some good stuff would be released.
That's the hardest part of it all. Who's going to determine the quality standards and who is going to control them?

One thing I have proposed in the past is the following (the short version).

Anyone can create mods and release them through their own channel(s). But for singleplayer only.
Licensed users can install them and check them out in singleplayer. This way (hopefully) quality mods would create a "buzz" in the community. And then, every couple of months or so, people can nominate and vote on the mods that have been released.
The "winner" would then be evaluated by the devs in terms of craftmanship, realism, quality, bugs and if it brings something new to LFS. Then they have the final word. If they feel it's worthy of LFS and it doesn't violate any license/copyright issues, they can adjust the master server to allow that content in multiplayer.
This however would probably result in upset modders/players because their masterpiece/favourite hasn't been chosen. Then again, if this is made clear from the start only the true dedicated modders will keep on trying to bring their work to it's highest level.

[chunkyracer]

but if we have a team of modders, allowed(right word?) by scavier to make mods, only good mods would come out

and who wouldn't like to race a fzr(maybe a lx8:scratchch) on Nordschleife ? :tilt:

The question is this: what people want of modding is to recreate real cars and tracks, and that way the devs can´t be part of it, because if you do release a mod with real cars and tracks without being licensed to, you're infact doing something "illegal"... I would prefer , if in the future modding is allowed, that the mods should be released with the aproval of the dev team, but for that to happen, we would have to keep it the way it is now: with fictional cars and tracks.

[Motörhead V8]

One word: licenses.

If modding would be made possible there would be one (IMO) very important condition. And that is, all content should be part of an automatic update system. So LFS itselfs keeps your content up to date whenever version 1.0.2.3 of mod XYZ is released.

yes, the licences would be the big issue if the devs, somehow, be a part of modding.
but if they don't?

one aumomatic update system could be done by someone in community as a add-on
this way the devs stay away from anything related to mods

GPL has a huge collection of tracks, how they did that? i suppose that GPL developers didn't pay for licences, because those mods are made by the community


That's the hardest part of it all. Who's going to determine the quality standards and who is going to control them?


just like you propose, the community votes for the best mods, they do some offline "test-driving" :)

but, whats happen after the mods are chosen? the devs must update the master server.

i may be wrong, but that way they get involved with modding, dont they?

IMO i guess its a little bit soon to discuss modding, we dont even got S2 finished :D

ps: sorry for bad english, i'm not used to write that much in english hehe :schwitz:

[joen]

GPL has a huge collection of tracks, how they did that? i suppose that GPL developers didn't pay for licences, because those mods are made by the community

GPL wasn't made for modding, mods were created by some sort of hex editing afaik. Really complicated stuff, I guess sort of like in the same way Kegetys got the McLaren into LFS.


but, whats happen after the mods are chosen? the devs must update the master server.

i may be wrong, but that way they get involved with modding, dont they?
Yes, exactly. That's the problem I tried to make clear. If copyrighted content would be allowed through the master server, the devs would be involved and therefore in violation.

ps: sorry for bad english, i'm not used to write that much in english hehe :schwitz:Your english is fine, better than some of the native speakers ;)

[JTbo]

I won't accept no from many because many seem to think that modding would simply spoil everything because of crap mods as in other games and failing to see how there are really many ways to prevent that. What I have in mind is that you can't input 10000 hp editor would not allow that, unless you choose ship engine and that would take lot of space so can't put into anything smaller than a ship. It just requires bit of imagination to think how issues can be solved, denying is simplest method to take care of issue, also very bad, imo.

Is mod bad if graphic model is not perfectly accurate, even if performance and handling is perfectly accurate?
I don't care really lot from graphics, there small errors are ok, but handling and performance must be correct. Also better graphic guy can easily offer to upgrade graphics, handling is whole lot different matter.

You can see what happens when modding is hard with rFactor, people modding are not engineers, if you make things too hard people will take short cuts and look and behold crap mods, either very easy and controlling editor environment or nothing at all.

As I said before and have written to another thread, it is not master server where stuff should need to be updated and specially not manually, that would be most stupid, more creative way must be made.

Oh yes, about 6 years stuff, sense of humour? Don't take all from me so seriously or you will get shocked many many times, I'm not serious guy at all, more of bit crazy :tilt:

I don't have anything against discussion I like it, it would be just more convient to discuss in here (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=20114) where we started so I will not say anything to anyone in this thread after this, please move to discussion to appropriate place so it will then be more useful also later to find things what has been discussed already and put lock to this! :D

[Cue-Ball]

yes, the licences would be the big issue if the devs, somehow, be a part of modding.
but if they don't?It is illegal either way. The only difference is that it's a lot easier and more lucrative to sue a company than it is to sue an individual.

[KeiichiRX7]

after s3 is out, why not allow only track modding, we get some REAL LIFE tracks?
with a quality control probably some good stuff would be released.

i see the point of view of yours, if modding is allowed a lot of crap would be released, also online racing will become very confusing with a lot of mods around.
but if we have a team of modders, allowed(right word?) by scavier to make mods, only good mods would come out

and who wouldn't like to race a fzr(maybe a lx8:scratchch) on Nordschleife ? :tilt:
Real Asphalt is over rated.


Why?

Same reason games are made for consoles that havent hit the market yet: Launch Title

The question is this: what people want of modding is to recreate real cars and tracks, and that way the devs can´t be part of it, because if you do release a mod with real cars and tracks without being licensed to, you're infact doing something "illegal"... I would prefer , if in the future modding is allowed, that the mods should be released with the aproval of the dev team, but for that to happen, we would have to keep it the way it is now: with fictional cars and tracks.

Unless permission is attained directly from the car's owner, like the way we have aquired DP Cars cooperation. If the devs decide to use it at this point is up to them.

It is illegal either way. The only difference is that it's a lot easier and more lucrative to sue a company than it is to sue an individual.

bingo

[sam1600]

If opening LFS to modding means more people who use underlined garbage as a medium of conversation, then that just seals it.

Some games NEED modding to work (rCraptor for example, which would be nothing without mods as the dev team have zero understanding of car dynamics, although it is only just above nothing WITH modding), others don't.

LFS doesn't need it at all.

If it happens, I hope there is a way to stop people like you being able to mod it - perhaps a £100 Dev-Kit fee and licence.

Jesus Christ, Tristan, what the **** is your problem? Are you this miserable, arrogant and condescending in real life? You must have absolutely no friends. The only thing you ever post is self-important bile.

[tristancliffe]

Yes, I am this miserable, arrogant and condescending in real life. And I think that's the reason I have quite a number of friends actually. Much rather this than some 'follow the leader, what-he-says, trend following sheep.

Not EVERYTHING I post is self-important bile. Only last week I said something nice on this very forum!

[Madman_CZ]

Jesus Christ, Tristan, what the **** is your problem? Are you this miserable, arrogant and condescending in real life?

Nah. Not Tristan, Ok so I only met him once but he bought me a pint :p

a deed i shall repay

[sam1600]

Yes, I am this miserable, arrogant and condescending in real life. And I think that's the reason I have quite a number of friends actually. Much rather this than some 'follow the leader, what-he-says, trend following sheep.

Not EVERYTHING I post is self-important bile. Only last week I said something nice on this very forum!

Ah, the old 'I-just-say-what-I-really-think-at-least-I'm-honest' defence; a favourite hiding place for pricks the world over.

As for your attempt at humour, you manage to be simultaneously self-deprecating and self-important. Well done!

How's the race car going? Was it F3 or F3000? I can't, for the life of me, remember...

[al heeley]

I think this discussion has reached a natural conclusion. Thanks:thumbsup: