Bikes!

[SoulHunter100]

it would be cool to include bikes into the game, dont know how possible it would be though with the physics engine most likely built for only cars, but even trucks would be a cool improvment, something away from the normal "cars". see where this is going?

[-freak-]

Yeah, what about Bike racing on Kyoto Oval ? :D

[tristancliffe]

see where this is going?

Will it be merged with other topics on bikes? If not, I have no idea where it's going, but it won't be anywhere new, after over 2 hundred (ish) threads on this topic over the years.

[rctomw]

Sorry for reviving a dead thread, but hey, its better than making a new one if there's already one, how unserious this one might be.

Apart from maybe gyroscopic forces (don't know if its already in there since it doesn't really do much to car handling), the physics engine will need no alterations.
Bikes turn by means of contrasteering.
To take on a right turn, you turn your front wheel to the left slightly so the centrifugal forces will make you fall to the right side, then you tilt your front wheel the other way to "catch" the lean angle once you're leaning enough.
If you need to lean more, you let the wheel tilt a bit more to the left and catch it again, if you want to get up again, tilt the wheel to the right and once you're past about 70° angle from the ground up you can get hard on the gas for more stability.
I do suggest, however, to make a sort of steering aid in the game for keeping upright, cause in real life, gyroscopic forces and near subconcious steering adjustments resulting from real balance can be taken for granted, and its a sim... ;)

If you don't understand, download the arcade style "motogp3" demo, get in cockpit view and watch the steering bar as you turn...

Motorcycles really need a sim badly, all we have is the semi-realistic 5 year old GAME "gp 500" and from there on its only arcade racing...

I'd suggest something like a 125CC and 250CC 2stroke.
If you want to go risky 1000CC 4stroke could be an option too. But if you do a 1000, make 2 versions, one with a 4-cyl and one with a V-twin. :)
No need for a 600 4t since the power to weight ratio of a 250 2t is the same and the weight in total is a lot less, so its much easier to handle.
Easy handling is going to be needed on the current tracks in LFS!

Well, I know this idea is far out there, but bikers are really desperate for a decent sim...

[ajp71]

It raises the question of what sort or input would people need to use?

[geeman1]

It raises the question of what sort or input would people need to use?
This (http://ftp.thrustmaster.com/pictures/PSX/Freestyler_Bike/Freestyler%20Bike.jpg)
Only it's made for PlayStation 1/2 and it won't work without an adapter.

EDIT: This site (http://www.consoleplus.co.uk/product_info.php?pName=freestyler-bike-controller-for-pc-usb) claims to have a version for PC (with USB), but I could not find that on the Thrustmaster site.

[rctomw]

I think mouse would be easier to steer but you'd need proportional gas and brakes, especially with race bikes wich have revs upto 15.000!
A joystick could pass, but its not very simlike.

Well, its not going to be 100% realistic, never.
Even cars won't. You don't have any wheels that turn the full 2.5 times apart from that one wheel (forgot its name) from logitech that costed loads and had lots of bugs...

[geeman1]

Even cars won't. You don't have any wheels that turn the full 2.5 times apart from that one wheel (forgot its name) from logitech that costed loads and had lots of bugs...

Driving Force Pro and it costs the same as MOMO (~100 euros) and what bugs? Even the pedal problems should be over with B00 revision.

[ajp71]

Even cars won't. You don't have any wheels that turn the full 2.5 times apart from that one wheel (forgot its name) from logitech that costed loads and had lots of bugs...

No but you can set wheels so that full lock = x% of 2.5 turns

[XCNuse]

Driving Force Pro and it costs the same as MOMO (~100 euros) and what bugs? Even the pedal problems should be over with B00 revision.
noooo it doesnt lol

the momo racing costs 100 US $
the DFP costs 145 US $

hasnt changed in 3 years

now unless you get one on ebay.. thats a different story, but online you will almost always see them with 45$ difference

[geeman1]

noooo it doesnt lol
the momo racing costs 100 US $
the DFP costs 145 US $
hasnt changed in 3 years
now unless you get one on ebay.. thats a different story, but online you will almost always see them with 45$ difference

It does in Finland, avarage price for MOMO is 119 € (cheapest price 107 €) and 108 € for DFP (cheapest 89 €).

[rctomw]

Ok, so theres another one thats now only +-100€ that I didn't know of.
I believe that DFP had some problems with weak pedals and the wheel grows an unusual amount of play around the centre point or so. Could be that those bugs are gone now, but still, that wasn't the point.
Think back about 7-8 years or so in car sims...
You see why SOMEONE needs to do a good bike sim, even if its not perfect at all? somebody has to start out.

I know a few people that are into the modding scene for other games and stuff, if the devs want I can raffle up a few guys, sign and NDA and make a part of it as semi-outsiders for real dev team (no profit intentions).
Don't take my word for it just yet, but still...

[tristancliffe]

Scawen actually mentioned bikes the other day. He was very impressed by the bike mod that someone did, with overlapping wheels and rounded tyres...

But no, LFS doesn't yet simulate gyroscopic forces, and until then Motorbikes won't officially be implemented. But Scawen WOULD like them in there one day :D

[the_angry_angel]

Any excuse to get the 'ol bike out and give her a dust off, I think ;)

[avih]

i think the main issue with bikes sim is that a real bike is mostly controlled by body movements, and a little steering input, while cars are solely controlled by a steering wheel. steering wheel correlates with standard input for games, i.e. joystick with single axis for steering. for a true bike sim, you'll have to use 2 horizontal axises for control. one for the body position and one for the steering handles (even if ignoring forward movments of the body which are of great important in bikes races). on top of that you'll have to use gas/breaks. imagine trying to balance such simmed bike while racing. impossible imo :)

so shortcuts regarding the controls muct be made with a bikes sim. there goes the real-bike sim dream ;)

although, current game controllers do have 2 analog sticks though. so theoretically one could be used for body movements in 4 directions, while the other for gas/break/steer.

i don't wanna try to balance the bike to stay on the road though with such inputs, not to mention racing :)

[Bob Smith]

i think the main issue with bikes sim is that a real bike is mostly controlled by body movements, and a little steering input, while cars are solely controlled by a steering wheel.
I've read lots of stuff that argues against that common misconception. Granted moving the CoG around (i.e. the rider) is still important for the fastest times but it's not as important as steering.

Also without steering bikes get very unstable at high speed - you need the automatic countersteering.

Still, seperate controls to move the rider would be nice but I think having it automated would be good enough unless you're a bike nut.

Edit: I can dig the article up if you want to read it. :)

[Forbin]

Yep, I have to agree with Bob Smith on the way bikes are steered. I should know, I ride a motorcycle. I intentionally push the bars in one direction, followed by the bike's immediate reaction to the steering input. At that pont it's merely a matter of you avoiding the urge to keep your body upright, perpendicular to the ground. That's only done in motocross and dirt track/speedway. :)

As decribed by Keith Code, when you try to lean the bike over with your body, what actually initiates the turn is a slight panic mode where your arms stiffen up and push the bars in the proper direction. This is a result of the fact that the bike does not initially lean over when you lean your body. This happens to be a huge delay.

You can try this on your bicycle, too, just be very gentle. It's quite sensitive on my 280 lb enduro* motorcycle. I would imagine it's a lot more sensitive on 5 lb mountain bike. Just give one side of the bars a little push and see how the bike reacts.

*dirtbike that's also designed to go on the street

I have expressed my desire for a bike in LFS many times in the past. This desire has not changed.

Edit: I can dig the article up if you want to read it. :)You mean this one? :)

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

[avih]

well, i ride a bike too for quite a while (atm Suzuki DL650, before that BMW F650 for 7 years, other bikes before). even did few laps on donington with CBR600RR. I had a post about that experience few weeks ago.

The thing is, that the steering input of a bike is usually the opposite direction to that of a turn, and only when starting or ending a turn, NOT during a turn, i.e. you wanna turn RIGHT: you move your body RIGHT, you PUSH the steering LEFT for a short while (NOTE: it's NOT turning it left, just applying preasure) --> the bike leans RIGHT, you lean off the bike to the right (in sport riding, on normal road riding u can stay at the center more or less), steering is usually straight with minor corrections to keep the bike on it's intended path.

When you wan't to stop turning and ride straight again (same corner), you apply preasure on the handlebars to the RIGHT (push the left handlebar/pull the right handlebar) --> the bike straightens up LEFTWARDS.

So, the whole thing with LFS is how good the simulation is. If you insert auto-balancing and "macro-turning" into the equation (i call macro turning the simplifications of the above description of a turn into a single axis steering input only), then i thnk that we lose the whole sim part of LFS.

I would still be very interested to see LFS with a bike, it's just that my experience with bike sims isn't that good (superbike 2000/2001, motogp 2) and i think that the most important aspect of bike steering, which is balancing the bike with body position and "counter-steering" as main steering input, can't be simulated (or "naturally" controlled) properly.

would still love to test it :)

[Tweaker]

Had my motorcycle license since 15 1/2 and always been ridin' ever since :) Would love to have a bike in LFS, even if it didn't feel exactly right heheh.

If you've played the latest MotoGP game, you can see that they improvise with the controls by giving a pretty good range of 'body' controls for leaning and what not... that is what LFS would need, unless it was all automatic like Bob mentioned.

It would be neat if there was a motorcycle controller (handlebars) though... that would REALLY hit the spot for LFS :)

[skiingman]

You can try this on your bicycle, too, just be very gentle. It's quite sensitive on my 280 lb enduro* motorcycle. I would imagine it's a lot more sensitive on 5 lb mountain bike. Just give one side of the bars a little push and see how the bike reacts.


The very best (or perhaps worst if you don't love sliding on tarmac) way to realize this effect on a bicycle is to ride in a straight line, and grab the bar with a single opposite hand. That is, grab the left bar with the right hand. Because you have no muscle memory to go from in this situation, you will quickly realize that pulling back on the left bar doesn't have the desired effect of making you go left. Its very interesting how intuitively your body thinks that is the way to do things, yet your arms actually know better once you've learned to ride the bike.

[rctomw]

..., it's just that my experience with bike sims isn't that good (superbike 2000/2001, motogp 2)
Thats because they aren't sims, they're games. A nine year old can win in those games even if they had no knowledge whatsoever of gyroscopic forces, countersteering, shifting, quickshifting, ...
Press left to go left, press right to go right. Kthxbye, I'll keep looking for a sim. :)

and i think that the most important aspect of bike steering, which is balancing the bike with body position and "counter-steering" as main steering input, can't be simulated (or "naturally" controlled) properly.

Well, thats just the thing, riding bikes is less "feeling" than you think.
At 200KM/H the wheels should gyro so much you could sit next to the bike on a bracket mounted at the normal saddle with about 50CM offset of the center and the bike should stay up more or less.

Riding bikes is all theoretical mechanics! Forces that come out of the air!
If you think your balance helps anything, you couldn't have been more wrong.
If you think your balance helps, lets test it out in a situation where your balance is the only force that is influencing the bike: Standing still.
Not my responsibility if you drop the bike! (unless you're a trials rider, but then you're using different techniques :) )

The only reason you shift yourself off the bike in turns is to knee-down.
Knee-downing just gives you an extra sense of the road, so you can steer accordingly.

I'll explain my nickname a bit. RCtomw.
Tom W. is my name obviously, and RC stands for my hobby of Radio Control motorcycles.
I ride a scale 1/5th Ducati 999r, and it handles just like real ones (apart from grip sometimes cause the tarmac isn't scaled :D ) despite the fact I don't have a live rider on it.
Thats why I know so much of the theory behind keeping a bike up. Its because we have to fully rely on it, and surprisingly, a rider can be 100% perfectly replaced by radio gear, an ESC*, motor and steering servo!
(*ESC= Electronic Speed Control, a sort of electrical "throttle" for the motor)

So if the physics engine will get updated by gyroscopic forces, everything will be present to make a bike that runs (near) perfectly! :p
Maybe for the first try make the rider model a sport touring dude that keeps his riding position relative to the bike the same through all bends.
Don't want to make it overcomplicated for a beta-release test or so...

[avih]

comming to think of it, i now think it's possible :)

Here's how it should go:

1. steering wheel = handlebars (with same directions controlled). i.e. you use it to change leanning angle, in the OPPOSITE direction. that would be the closest to the real thing. you turn/push the wheel left and hold position/preasure --> the bike leaning angle to the RIGHT increases progressivly. you hold the wheel straight (no preasure) --> the leaning angle/turning radius stays the same.

2. balancing the bike is automatic, and so are right/left body movements (possibly forward/back movements too)

3. force feedback would be VERY important imho, since while turning, you actually apply preasure against the natural tendency of the handlebars to stay straight. the greater preasure u apply (notice: the bars don't turn much), the faster the leaning angle is increased.

4. maybe adding 2 buttons: lean right/left "hint". this way you can prepare the body position for the next turn (again, balancing and amount of leaning is automatic). otherwise, the sim engine would have hard times to only start the body movements when you apply preasure to the wheel to start the turn. that would look and feel unnatural imo. other possible consequence is that the leanning speed is much slower than if the body position is already set.

so, here's a summary of the controls needed for a right and then left turn. starting on a straight:

1. break and hint to move body to the right (bike keeps going straight)

2. apply preasure on the wheel to the left untill leaning angle (--> turning radius) to the right is set as you like. the greater the preasure u apply, the faster the bike leans.

3. hardest part for the sim to "assist": during the turn, the wheel stays straight. if u push the gas and want to stay with the same turning radius, you have to oppose the FF which pushes RIGHT by applying some preasure on the wheel to the LEFT. if you reduce the throttle, the bike will have a tendency to increase the leaning angle/turnning radius and the FF will push left, so you'll have to push RIGHT to oppose the tendency to "fall". basically, to stay with the same turning radius you'll have to oppose the FF forces by keeping the wheel straight.

regardless of the speed, if u keep the leaning angle, then turning radius will stay the same (up to tires ability to grip). speed changes inside a turn will apply forces on the wheel as described above, while opposing these forces will keep the leaning angle and therefore the turning radius.

4. exit from the right turn: you increase the throttle input. the FF pushes right, you "let it" push you a bit, leaning angle decreases, bike goes straighter, speed increases.

5. approaching left turn: hinting to move the body left and then starting to break.

6. same procedure as the previous turn but opposite direction.



ok, i'm ready. come on Scawen, bring on the bikes ;)


@rctomw: yup, i hear you about the body position and i do agree. balancing indeed doesn't have such a great part of riding, but body position does. you move the body to the right, therefore center of gravity moves to the right side of the bike, which is equivalent of leaning the bike. it just allows you greater leaning angle while keeping the center of gravity low.



i'm not sure anymore of the theoretical aspect of keeping the bike during turns.. i'll have to think some more about it...



small inconsistency in me previous description. when i said increase leaning angle/turning radius i actually ment increase leaning angle/DECREASE turning radius (same as turning a car wheel more)

[rctomw]

Basicly, you've got it all down like I meant it! :thumb:
Apart from one little detail.
I believe during lean that your front wheel is slightly tilted to the side of the turn and not just straight.
Wich is quite logic as you still want to turn...
I'll try and dig up some pics in wich its clearly visible...
Here fo example (http://www.planetbikers.org/PICTURE%20MANAGER/Bike%20Events/Cadwell%202003/DSCF0069%20rc.jpg)
Look at #5, its obvious! (a bit :really: )
Offcourse, at those speeds a little bit will be enough, but still...

[avih]

Scawen actually mentioned bikes the other day. He was very impressed by the bike mod that someone did, with overlapping wheels and rounded tyres...

But no, LFS doesn't yet simulate gyroscopic forces, and until then Motorbikes won't officially be implemented. But Scawen WOULD like them in there one day :D

tried to find this mod/post, but couldn't. can u point me to it pls?

[Bob Smith]

You're struggling because it was one of the things we chatted about when we met him. ;)

Oh and if you mean where to find the "bike mod", there was only a video released.

[avih]

ok, got the movie ("2 wheels r 2 much"). pretty amazing stuff :)

[rctomw]

ok, got the movie ("2 wheels r 2 much"). pretty amazing stuff :)Link? :)

[avih]

http://lfs-news.bluepixel.dk/moviespit/default.asp?order=title

sort by title, 4 wheels r 2 much ;)

[Hyperactive]

Any idea where one could find that "mod" (LFStweak and S1?) Or is the "mod" illegal? Would really like to test it a bit :) The video was nice too

[avih]

there's another video there called "motorcycle". i think it's the same mod, and it shows westhill intl. track. so that's some variant of s2.

[rctomw]

Still downloading "4 wheels r 2 much", but lol, check page 11!
Somewhere in the middle there is a vid called "motorcycle".
Its basicly everything we have to do, done, but with a car model and no gyroscopic forces (near the end he looses control and falls due to the lack of 'em).

[edit]
Having viewed "4 wheels r 2 much", Its safe to say its just the same as the other vid but the concept has been worked out better.
Add gyroscopic effects to the physics engine and it should be very statisfying already by the looks of it.

[Bob Smith]

Any idea where one could find that "mod" (LFStweak and S1?) Or is the "mod" illegal? Would really like to test it a bit :) The video was nice too
The mod was created for S2, not S1. I don't think it would be classified as "illegal" as it strikes me as being like LFSTweak, only adjust different properties. However it's not been publically released, since I'm not the author I don't know the reasons but probably for some of the same reasons we don't have Tweak for S2 yet.

[Forbin]

:eye-poppi :faint:

I must have this mod!

[Drillah]

Regarding the posts earlier about the bike controller being only for the ps2, a pc version is also made. I had one and it worked pretty good but i've got a setup i've gotten used to over the years so i sold it.

To w00p,
Try SBK2001 at level 4 with no aids on and you'll find that no 9 year old on earth can beat it.:)

LFS-Bikes, It could certainly surpass all other bike games if it was released...but m/c legends might come out before it. :Looking_a

[Tweaker]

I actually thought the EA Superbike games were not that bad, they had a few wierd happenings in it every now and then, but it was pretty good I thought, especially without aids :).

[avih]

i never said sbk2001 is easy. it's not. i said that the control is very far from natural. on a racetrack u just flic the bike, open throttle and exit smoothly. to exit (or rather enter) smoothly with sbk2001 is a nightmare.

[Drillah]

i don't disagree with you avih, i was talking to rctomw not you.

[rctomw]

Conclusion: "So while sbk 2001 may be a challenging game, its not very realistic" ?
(Never played the game, but I remember winning the demo on hardest setting on an R7)

I think a nice bike controller can be improvised.
If you get a cheapstake steering wheel, crack it open, get the steering wheel off and put a steering bar instead, with some gears to decrease the range of motion of the handles for the same input effect. Hook up the gas pedal input electronics to a real gas lever (get a cheap one in a moped store or so).
Brake electronics to the front brake lever (bicycle shop ;) ).
One of the simple on-off buttons to the clutch lever. Pity, but not much choice. Unless you can find a proportional input electronic and the units control chip is compatible with the analog signal...
For shifting you'll have to compromize too.
You could take 2 pushbuttons and hook them up to a lever shifter you mount around your feet, but I think stuff will get expensive there...
Prolly better off implementing gear up and gear down buttons where on a real bike the claxon and light switches are etc...

What are prospects of getting a bike mod right now?
After all, I have no knowledge of how the devs work with releasing stuff.
Do they pile all new features up for a few years and release it all as S3? Or do they patch up S2 if there are some nice pieces that are 100% finished and ready to go public at a considerate amount of time before S3 goes gold?

[v4forlife]

what would be great is a sportsbike based on the new aprillia 450 twin. that would fly, i think it has 60-70bhp standard, and put into a lightweight frame, it could really be usefull. another would be a cross breed of a sv650 motor in a vfr400 nc30 chassis. i know someone who is doing/done this, and it looks very very nice, not sure if he has finished it yet, so dunno how it will go.

[Breizh]

The aprilia race version is closer to 80hp I think.
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=50

[Hyperactive]

Tried to google it, all I found was some older RSC threads, but no link there either. Didn't read it all through though, was 5 pages: http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=214207

I tried RSC too, but all I could find was a video where a blonde chick tries Ferrari 360 :)

So the only way seems to be by hex-editing and I'm not sure if it's allowed to talk about it here? Or is hex-editing even allowed in LFS? Damn...

So this is all I found: http://forum.rscnet.org/showpost.php?p=2503388&postcount=9

[rctomw]

Well, I think its a bit early to go and think about specials.
Its a race sim and I think its best to get race bikes in before we get some fun bikes...
Though I agree, there are lots of sweet things out there. Can't wait till you can add your own home-made car and bike models!
I'd love a yamaha WR450F supermoto for some of the smaller tracks!
Gotta love bike drifting! :D

[L(Oo)ney]

I would ride around on a 50cc moped in LFS, if i could.

Motox/enduro/trial/supermoto bikes are a must if we ever get bikes in lfs though. ;)

[rctomw]

I hope you meant trail and not trial, because trial is impossible to simulate.
I ride bicycle trials at amateur level, and believe me, that is the one form of biking in wich the riders body weight means more than steering. About 10 times more!
No, thats plain impossible with a racing sim's engine...
You could try to use a joystick to move the body around, shoot button to pedal stroke and other buttons for braking, the POV button or throttle for turning the steering bar. Trackstand would be semi-possible then, rocking would be easier, hopping would be possible, sidehops and bunnyhops too, but, urgh, imagine lurges, japslaps, ... :Eyecrazy:

IMPOSSIBLE! :p

[v4forlife]

The aprilia race version is closer to 80hp I think.
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=50

but the supermoto...the sxv or something, is around 70. seeing as the rsv450 aint been released, or even looked like having a release date, and the supermoto bike is revealed and is coming out, that engine is the most realistic at the mo.

[Forbin]

As the owner of an enduro, I rather like it. :)

I think my next bike is still going to be a 600 supersport, though.

[Breizh]

It's not so clear yet, but I remember seeing confirmation that they'll offer a 550 road legal SXV sometime later, while the offroad R/MXV will get it right away.
I'm pretty sure I saw mention that a road version 450 could be 80hp if it wasn't for them wanting it reliable and cheap to maintain as Hondas.
I'd guess the 550 racer does 90+hp.

Since Scawen's british, he could make a Triumph 675-triple clone :)

[fanatic]

Still downloading "4 wheels r 2 much", but lol, check page 11!
Somewhere in the middle there is a vid called "motorcycle".


I think you have missed the last movie named "City madness". The bike setup was made as close as it was possible (for the moment ) to the real sportbike, and there are some racing and stunts ;-)

[fanatic]

I don't think it would be easy to simulate the supermotards, they require a lot of body balancing (especially during the slide) and I have no idea how to simulate it without driving help.. But for the sportbikes I see no problem at all..

[Drillah]

Conclusion: "So while sbk 2001 may be a challenging game, its not very realistic" ?
(Never played the game, but I remember winning the demo on hardest setting on an R7)

Get on over to hotlaps.de and put Forbin in his place then.:really:

Forbin, have you seen the revised points table?

w00p, It sounds like you've given the whole custom bike controller rig alot of thought, I'll take one when you've got it done. :D

[avih]

I think you have missed the last movie named "City madness". The bike setup was made as close as it was possible (for the moment ) to the real sportbike, and there are some racing and stunts ;-)

this is very good :)
is it recorded in normal speed? or do u have parts which were recorded to playback faster than normal? definately the best movie of the bunch. when u feel ready, pls let us know how to do that ;)

[Tweaker]

I wonder if LFS could support 100+ bikes like this?

>>>>>>>>> http://www.galnedansken.com/ny_sida_19.htm

:D

[avih]

fanatic, u seem to control the bike quite well. could u pls tell us hows does that feel? do u always use counter-steering? is the ff meaningful? did u try sliding? ;)

[rctomw]

Its very clear that countersteering is used at around 7:40 where he does an endo and flips over.
Watch him ride away and pay attention to what the wheel is doing, its clearly countersteering! :smileypul

Sweeeeeet video! :D

It just needs gyroscopic forces and a bike model now! :)
Watch the speed run starting at 8:30, the wobbling when he's going through turn 1...

[avih]

that's gotta be the best bike sim in the world right now. just allow to put the feet down when standing, a bit of polish and we're ready to go ;)

[[RCG]Boosted]

just 4 words : I WANT THAT MOD :D

[rctomw]

I'm still so stoked I'll do it in 2: Want ... Mod ... *drool*
:D

[nikimere]

But we already have BiKES.... :D
http://www.lfsforum.net/member.php?u=6567

[Tomi]

I'm a big fan of bike racing (especially Roadracing as it is raced in Ireland or IOM), but I don't think bike simulations are a good idea. It's soooo frustrating to have a good sim (GP500 was quite good imho) without having a proper way to use it. Even specialised input devices can't do anything about it.

Car simulations have become quite decent over the years with the FF wheels, large screens and devices such as trackIR but sadly there's no way you can enjoy the same immersion in a bike sim.

[rctomw]

But you still don't have a clutch pedal with car sims (LFS has clutch, but where's the pedal on the controller?), you don't have a cage around you, you don't have those forces in real life that push you into your seat and off the gas...
A simulation is to be as accurate fun as it gets without actually doing whatever is being simulated. With cars you can get closer to the real thing because it stays flat on the ground (unless you're doing something wrong) so thats almost an entire dimension less to simulate. In a car you also sit fully strapped in and secured, on a bike you're mounted so loose you could fall off if you'd accellerate too jerky and you're not used to your vehicle.

Cars can get closer to the real thing than bikes can.
Or not? You see, lets have a look at the utter first car sim ever and compare that to lfs. Quite a path that everything has walked huh?
Bike sims are about halfway the distance that car sims have already walked, so we need revolutionary stuff.
Imagine: first bike sim ever to use countersteering!

Indeed, there's no way you can enjoy the same immersion in a bike sim... right now. ;)
Ther have to be failures and breakthroughs to evolve a genre.
We've had enough failures, time for a breakthrough, and by the look of that city madness vid the concept only needs some finalizing thouches. Namely one quite import aspect of bike physics and the aesthetic matter.

[avih]

this is indeed a revolution. i don't think any other bike "sim" actually simulate the physical dimention of bike balance. I've downloaded gp500 demo (and ordered a copy for few quid btw). it looks good, but it's clear the balance and gravity aren't simulated. they're "deduced" from other parameters as speed and turning angle. same, more or less, goes for other bike sims.

this is really a chance to go for the "real thing". actually simulating a vehicle on 2 wheels :)


I was thinking how it would be possible to change the control paradigm in high/low speeds. i.e. when going slow, use direct-steer, and when going fast: counter-steer. but i got to the conclusion they're actually the same. counter-steer to get it going in the direction, and then direct steer through the turn. it's just that in high speed the direct-steer part through the corner is nearly unnoticable because of the big turning radius, while in slow speed turns, when the turning radius is much smaller, it's noticable, and hence, may be percieved as direct-steer.

good ;)

[rctomw]

I got thinking. What makes LFS so much different of other car sims?
One of the the reasons is that the whisbones are actually there! I'm not sure if they render, but if you look at fysics view in the garage you'll see that the wishbones and links and stuff are all there in nice coloured sticks.
This has a large effect on handling.

The bike model we have now is quite unrealistic qua suspension. The front wheel is a 100% linear suspended wheel. The rear is suspended in an arc, radius equal to the length between the swingarms pivot and the wheels pivot. This all has an influence, and I think there's going to be more work to put into bikes than the simplified bike in those vid's.
Now, I'm a little bit wary about performance. I think the wishbones aren't rendered for performance reasons. You can't see them anyway, so its just a gimmick for when the car flips upside down or so, in wich case you're doing something that isn't wat this sim intends you to do. With a bike, however, its not just a gimmick, its in clear sight from almost every angle you can look at the bike at...

The wheels are also a dynamic 3d object whoms location etc is calculated and rendered in that location accordingly, and if theres 3 cars in sight, the LOD goes down a few steps till your wheels are hexagonals or so. Imagine what impact the swingarms would have...

Now, normally, in a race environment, the swingarm doesn't really move noticably unless you're under unreal accelleration or doing a wheelie or landing from an endo...
So what do we do? Let the swingarm thats rendered be a static part of the bike model and have a real calculated one behind the scenes, but not rendered?
Render it realtime but keep it very low poly? Have a semi-realtime render?
With the last I mean save a few stances in an animation, with about 10° rotation intervals and then when a 10° rotation happens, render the according animation frame.
That way we won't have extreme calculation messes, not so much performance drop, and hopefully never a wheel that looks disattached from its pivot axle?
An animation has proven advantages over realtime calculation, but the main disadvantage is file size...
If we animate the swingarms of say 10 different race bikes we could easily add 20 MB or so!

[tristancliffe]

Well in LFS the wishbones are rendered (as you can see on the Formula cars), and they move. The car dynamics do not change with the level of detail, so this won't affect bikes either,

The swingarm and the forks just become the suspension linkages. They will be calculated and rendered in a similar fashion to the cars system (with obvious changes to suit bikes). So I can't see this being any more of a problem than the current car wishbone modelling and rendering system.

The visual wishbone animations are not pre-rendered animations, but calculated and displayed on the fly. This is the main reason that LFS is so CPU intensive - it's doing a lot of calculations, and displaying those.

[rctomw]

Ah ok, that problem solved, well, not solved, just proven not to be a problem in the first place. :)
But someone still needs to MAKE the proper linkages.

[Tomi]

But you still don't have a clutch pedal with car sims (LFS has clutch, but where's the pedal on the controller?), you don't have a cage around you, you don't have those forces in real life that push you into your seat and off the gas...
A simulation is to be as accurate fun as it gets without actually doing whatever is being simulated. With cars you can get closer to the real thing because it stays flat on the ground (unless you're doing something wrong) so thats almost an entire dimension less to simulate. In a car you also sit fully strapped in and secured, on a bike you're mounted so loose you could fall off if you'd accellerate too jerky and you're not used to your vehicle.

Cars can get closer to the real thing than bikes can.
Or not? You see, lets have a look at the utter first car sim ever and compare that to lfs. Quite a path that everything has walked huh?
Bike sims are about halfway the distance that car sims have already walked, so we need revolutionary stuff.
Imagine: first bike sim ever to use countersteering!

Indeed, there's no way you can enjoy the same immersion in a bike sim... right now. ;)
Ther have to be failures and breakthroughs to evolve a genre.
We've had enough failures, time for a breakthrough, and by the look of that city madness vid the concept only needs some finalizing thouches. Namely one quite import aspect of bike physics and the aesthetic matter.

I agree with your point. But bike sim would require so much that it could barely fit in your living room. The fact is that 90% of riding a bike is how you move your whole body and how the bike reacts. The only way to have a decent input/output device would be to have a full size FF bike frame. My wife will never allow me to have that kind of thing at home ;)

[avih]

I agree with your point. But bike sim would require so much that it could barely fit in your living room. The fact is that 90% of riding a bike is how you move your whole body and how the bike reacts. The only way to have a decent input/output device would be to have a full size FF bike frame. My wife will never allow me to have that kind of thing at home ;)

as we've [sort-of] agreed before, body movements perhaps control "micro-balance", while actual macro-balance is kept by counter-steering. as u can see from the vids, balance is actually kept quite well.

I was searching a bit about the theoretical aspect of steering a 2-wheels vehicle. seems there's some kind of auto-balancing mechanism implied by the geometry of the bike (and maybe also gyroscopic forces). so basicaly, as long as the front wheel can have some degree of freedom (either by spring or by the non-absolute rigidness of the hands that hold the handlebar), it'll keep stable without body movements as long as the front wheel points in the general direction of where it should.

which brings me some interesting though. as an ex mouse driver, i know that controlling the car with a mouse has absolute rigidness to the steering wheel, while controlling a car with a wheel has some kind of "flexibility" between the wheel-controller and the actual car-wheel that's displayed on screen (iirc, regerdless of FF). this difference in control mechanism may be a bug, but it may also help in understanding the physics of bike with LFS.

@fanatic: can u pls try to ride that "bike" with a mouse instead of a wheel? do u feel any kind of difference with the difficulty of controlling it?

here are some links that i gathered today:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Motorcycles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle
http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Balance/BALANCE.htm
http://www.msgroup.org/TIP048.html
http://www.red3d.com/cwr/steer/gdc99/

there's also a link from of these pages to an interesting theoretical analysis pdf

[rctomw]

OR, just watch post #17 of this thread and view the movie in the link.
The "no B.S. machine" shows it all, since lots of people refuse to believe in theory anyway...

[Forbin]

Get on over to hotlaps.de and put Forbin in his place then.:really:

Forbin, have you seen the revised points table?

w00p, It sounds like you've given the whole custom bike controller rig alot of thought, I'll take one when you've got it done. :D
Can't say that I have. Link?

EDIT: Nevermind, found it. And I like. :D

I wonder if LFS could support 100+ bikes like this?

>>>>>>>>> http://www.galnedansken.com/ny_sida_19.htm

:DThat's one big pileup... Looks like it was caused by some squid doing an endo or something, too. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Oh, nevermind, looks like it was just someone who grabbed too much front brake.

[Tomi]

as we've [sort-of] agreed before, body movements perhaps control "micro-balance", while actual macro-balance is kept by counter-steering. as u can see from the vids, balance is actually kept quite well.

[...]

there's also a link from of these pages to an interesting theoretical analysis pdf

I agree with all of this and I wasn't talking about the physical part of the discussion. But the point of a racing simulation is to have a sort of immersion in the game. In a car, excepting the G forces, all the input/output work is done via the wheel, pedals, vision and sound and you can easily fool yourself in front of your computer. On a bike : vision, sound and...the whole bike. You can't limit the bike to the handlebar + foot pegs. It just feels to wrong and I don't see a suitable solution to this. I will never feel like I'm actually riding a RCV211 in front of my computer, and it doesn't matter if the simulator is accurate enough. I will never think I'm loosing the front or something like that. That's why I will never buy another bike sim. It's always a frustrating experience for me.

[Forbin]

Get on over to hotlaps.de and put Forbin in his place then.:really:
If all he has is the demo, I think he might have a tough time beating a Honda on an R7 at Hockenheim. :)

[fanatic]

I totally disagree with The fact is that 90% of riding a bike is how you move your whole body. It is not at all true. I can seat still and I will loose only a few degrees during the cornering. Or if the bike is heavy enough, it will go straight despite of your position. The countersteering is the must.
So I think that the simulation of the driver's position is not at all necessary at the beginning.

Regarding the movie (City madness) - yes some parts were recorded with the double speed.. :-)

Regarding the countersteering in LFS - it doesn't works, because the controller is not attached to the steering. There is a kind of helper which stabilizes the bike instead of the gyro force, and when I turn the steering wheel, it doesn't respond immediately. It depends. Imagine that you have two very weak springs attached to the ends of the handlebar, and if you want to turn you have to pull one of the springs :-)

That's why it is not driveable. I made that video to impress you, guys, but the reality is much, much worse :-)
But the only thing left to implement is the gyro force (and get rid of that helper), and i would be the best bike sim ever

[avih]

oh, come on, you've succeded. we're all deeply impressed. now give us the mod! ;)

btw, what's this "helper" you're talking about?

[fanatic]

the helper which is pretending to be a gyro-force :-)

I don't have the mod. I had an artmoney-table a lot of time ago, played a bit with it, recorded those vids, and forgot it.

Now I dont have anything, even had to download my video back again to watch it..

[avih]

hmm :/ wanted to try it a bit.

@scawen, any chance u give us something to play with? :)

[L(Oo)ney]

the helper which is pretending to be a gyro-force :-)


You lowered the COG below the ground surface, right? ;)

[fanatic]

nope, it was somewhere in the driver's body. The "bike" was falling if it was not moving.

[Drillah]

That City Madness video is pretty cool, I hadn't seen that one yet.
I'm sure this has been mentioned but, whoever is doing this mod, have you been able to remove the grip of 2 of the tires? You've just squished the 4 of them them together right? We can't go having the same corner speeds as cagers now. :tilt:

[Breizh]

A bike that's hard to control would be better than none at all, just like a tyre shredding LX8 would be better than none at all.
I think I'd be pretty comfy controling it with my Xbox gamepad, all that'd be missing is an extra finger and axis to map the rear brake to.
Triggers for throttle&front brake, analog sticks for body movement (lateral and front/rear) and steering.
You could map one of the pressure-sensitive buttons as an axis for the rear brake, but you'd have to let go of the right analog stick, or of the right trigger if your fingers are flexible enough.

Counter-steering wouldn't be hard to control with a wheel, just emulate it by force-feedback. Steering wheels IRL have "force-feedback", yet it's not hard to steer sim cars without it.

[avih]

... Steering wheels IRL have "force-feedback", yet it's not hard to steer sim cars without it.

that's different than a bike though. in bike you mostely use the forced applied to the bars (and resistane of those) more than actually turning it...

[Breizh]

So it's a subtle counter-movement against a certain force, movement all the same.
Just force-feedback it.

[Drillah]

this is indeed a revolution. i don't think any other bike "sim" actually simulate the physical dimention of bike balance. I've downloaded gp500 demo (and ordered a copy for few quid btw). it looks good, but it's clear the balance and gravity aren't simulated. they're "deduced" from other parameters as speed and turning angle. same, more or less, goes for other bike sims.


SBK 2000 and 2001 simulate the weight of the bike and the effect of the rider a little, even the TTSBK's for the PS2 does this.
In TTSBK's it can be a struggle to get the bike to change direction at speed, sitting up helps a bit because you raise the COG. :)
SBK same thing only it's not quite as pronounce.

I keep bringing up SBK because I know it well not because I think it's perfect...it's got quite a few strange things. i do however think that it is one of the only bike sims currently available and if anybody is making a bike sim or modding a car game to have bikes in it, they should seriously play SBK2000 or SBK2001 at the level 4 mode for a while to better understand what mistakes not to make.
-low speed balance is shite
-can't slide it under braking or acceleration
-can't shift at full lean
-separate front/rear brakes
-hang off bike left/right
And countersteering? Well, we don't conciously do it in real life, it just happens right? Well leave it out I say.

[Forbin]

And countersteering? Well, we don't conciously do it in real life, it just happens right? Well leave it out I say.
Well, sort of and not really. A quick direction change requires that you countersteer conciously. If you're just taking it easy it's kind of much less so.

See post #13 on page 1, the link at the bottom.

[tristancliffe]

Most riders don't actually know what countersteering is (or if they do, they only found out fairly recently). When you learn how to use it properly, it's a valuable tool, and can get you out of trouble extremely well - like you you barrel into a tightening corner, if you just lean, press on the footpegs and hope, you'll probably crash. If you consiously countersteer a bit more, without doing anything else (but keep relaxed) then you'll probably make it.

Obviously this has it's limitations - 100mph into a 10m radius hairpin won't be saved by countersteering.

It's a good trick, and it saved my arse on a couple of occasions.

[[RCG]Boosted]

/me still waiting for this mod :D

[Honey]

i think that if scawen could implement such mod and force to enable it by editing a file only in single player and making bikes not availble for AIs, this would make us happy, we can give a lot of feedback, it would be not availble in the game as default and it would not hurt anyone...oh, and the graphic model could be just a box: i would be happy even to drive a box with 2 wheels :D !!!

[hrtburnout]

Look what I found while Hex-editing LFS.exe (shhh!)

[tristancliffe]

It's no secret Scawen wants bikes in it, and he has shown interest in the bike mod. But I very much doubt we'll see official bikes in LFS anytime soon...

[L(Oo)ney]

Look what I found while Hex-editing LFS.exe (shhh!)

You're about 6 months too late with this, us lot have already seen it.

Some of those have been in there for years, but they havent been used yet. (karts, for example)

[hrtburnout]

I've posted it at RSC a few months ago too :)

[Drifter[fin]]

awww.. not bikes.. but maybe later??

[BlakjeKaas]

It's ok I guess :)

[LeManchot]

Not bike on S3... :( Is it confirmed ?

It's a pity.
For which reasons ?
Is this envisaged in a future version ? S4 maybe ?

[XCNuse]

we dont even know anything about S3 yet...

and S4 most likely wont happen at all, depends on how the devs feel after S3 (which wont be finished probably until 201X)

[MoonForce]

thers deffo a big market for this, and surely then for lfs, means dozens of new members of lfs from bikesport area...

me personally dare for it! :thumbsup: :hippy:

(can anyone admit a workin link for the video, would be nice just to see the bike mod, 2hour search didnt end up in any result, if u have this please contact me via pn or just upload a workin link pls)

[Lucasinio]

How bout a 3-wheeled bike, could go on the rallyx circuits :P

[zak_mull]

Problem is, wont really be a simulator unless u have a proper steering system for a bike, would cost more money for that, alot of people would go on mouse or keyboard, although this is a good idea, it aint in my books

[Motordirex]

Problem is, wont really be a simulator unless u have a proper steering system for a bike, would cost more money for that, alot of people would go on mouse or keyboard, although this is a good idea, it aint in my books

Gemini Yamaha Motor Sport Controller, $29.95 on Ebay. :thumb:

I have one and have played with EA Superbike 2001 and Tourist Trophy for PS2. It works but compared to a dual shock controller, it is more difficult to use. But that comparison can also be made between racing two wheels to 4 wheels. Once you get the hang of it though, its awesome!

If not the Gemini, Id opt for a PS2 type controller. Anyone using the mouse and or keyboard for LFS isnt running a sim in the first place.

[[RCG]Boosted]

i really wish that bike mod could be updated and be released publically :shrug:

[fanatic]

I've found my "city madness" video on the one of the old cd's, so decided to upload it to google.. Here it is!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6002341789030613722

regarding the discussion in this topic - on my opinion you don't need any special controller to ride a bike in LFS, any wheel will work without any problem.. Of course, the motorcycle setup with a proper bar, brake, clutch, etc will be a nice thing to try i the sim, but it isn't a big deal! I ride alot and on various bikes (sportbikes, supermoto, trails) and I had no problems of control (but the third pedal to separate the front and the rear brake would be nice, and forth for the clutch too.. ;-) )

Regarding this video - I've tried to set up the model as close to the real bike as possible! The CoG is a bit below the driver, that's why I'm able to do stoppies and wheelies. If you place the COG below the track, the bike will not corner and will not raise its wheels :-)

I was thinking to make another wideo with supermoto-style bikes, to show the rear wheel drift and some jumps, but lost the motivation.. :-)
I hope we'll see the bikes in LFS some day..

[theirishnoob]

bikes.... id rather try beating a top feul dragester with a diahatsu midget then use one of em

[Motordirex]

on my opinion you don't need any special controller to ride a bike in LFS, any wheel will work without any problem.. Of course, the motorcycle setup with a proper bar, brake, clutch, etc will be a nice thing to try i the sim, but it isn't a big deal! I ride alot and on various bikes (sportbikes, supermoto, trails) and I had no problems of control (but the third pedal to separate the front and the rear brake would be nice, and forth for the clutch too.. ;-) )

Thank you!

Most of the replies to not have bikes because of the lack of simulation I feel is due to people not understanding the steering characteristics of a motorcycle.

Bikes in LFS 101 - Counter-Steering

Though you can lean, or hang off a bike through a turn like Valentino Rossi, doesnt mean you have to. Above a speed of about 20 to 30 km/h (15-20 mph), the motorcycle's wheels act like gyroscopes. These spinning masses of wheel and tire combine to create a gyroscopic force -- if you've ever held a spinning bicycle wheel in your hand and felt how difficult it is to "steer" it, you'll understand.

If you've ever played with a gyroscope, you'll remember that pushing forward on the left end of the axle didn't result in the wheel turning to the right. Instead, thanks to a force called gyroscopic precession which redirects the force 90 degrees in the direction of rotation, the wheel actually leaned to the left, rotating on an axis around the center of the wheel. Your motorcycle works the same way. By turning the handlebars to the right, you are effectively inputting the same force we used in our example. Trying to push the spinning wheel to the right causes the wheel, and the rest of the bike attached to it, to lean to the left. This is called counter-steering. Turn the bars right, and you lean left. It is the only way a motorcycle steers at any speed above walking speeds.

Counter steering, for now, would be the only thing LFS would need to take into consideration IF bikes were released. Lean angles can be worked out later with enough thought and input. I can counter steer with my Gemini playing Superbike 2001, cant with Tourist Trophy.

[Motordirex]

bikes.... id rather try beating a top feul dragester with a diahatsu midget then use one of em

Racing is like sex; you want it to last more then 10 seconds. :D

[cahayaindra]

how to use the bike mods on LFS? give me the link, and I'll download it. information and answer please. thanks brother. :thumb: :heyjoe67_ferrari:

[UnknownMaster21]

how to use the bike mods on LFS? give me the link, and I'll download it. information and answer please. thanks brother. :thumb: :heyjoe67_ferrari:


Simple as umm simple


Drive a car in 2 wheels

[LazLoW]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLrosr2Ofrs
^
@ OP
"Run or you'll be a lot shorter."