Servers with less noobs... (not a joke posting)

[tonyyeb]

It would be good if when setting up a server you could specify how many miles/kms a racer has to have completed (according to LFS World) before they can join. That way you can have a server where only people who have done say 5000 miles can join eliminating most noobish type activities (notice the word MOST!)

Likewise you could set a maximum to create a more level playing field for a newbie only server. That way new people get a chance to win races (or at least get up onto the podium) building confidence in an environment where you dont get "BLUE FLAG!!! Get out of the way!" sent to you 10 times!

[JamesF1]

Miles don't necessarily dictate "noobiness" or skill. For example, I don't have time for a lot of miles in Live for Speed, but I do know how to get out of the way of lapping drivers and I do a fair whack. So I could be excluded, with your idea, from racing in a server because I didn't have a lot of miles - but only because I didn't have the time to do them? ;)

[tonyyeb]

Then how about an option to say that the user must have completed the tutorials offline before joining the server? That could be easily done.

[96 GTS]

I only have 4304 miles driven in LFS, but I think I'm a pretty decent driver. I know how to handle myself in trafic, how to obey flags, all that stuff. I can usually contend for a podium with all but the fastest drivers. Mileage doesn't really give you a good idea of driver skill, IMO. Oh, and I did the offline tutorials, but ended up getting bored of them, and never finished.

[tonyyeb]

Ok thats all true. The reason why the idea popped into my head cause i too have done less than 5000 miles but i think im a good driver (some people will disagree im sure ;) ) but im tired of people complaining on servers saying "Stupid noob!" and things like that cause someone has taken them out or is going a bit too slow for them. Other than making the server private i cant see another way to differenciate between good drivers and noobs. Maybe the total points on LFS World?

[XCNuse]

any fool can get points

this just wont be possible, either from points received in some form, or by voting... each can be either acheived easily or abused easily, it just cannot happen
and then what happens to the "noobs"? they wont be able to race online so how will they learn? they wont because they wont get any practice and that just leads to pure corruption online.. in any form its just not possible to destinct a veteran from a noob.. just because someone crashes alot makes them a "noob" i see plenty of fast veterans on LFS crash a load of times
and it cant be by time, because a fool can also be quick but lethal..
plus.. its a drivers duty to destinct a difference from the good and the bad drivers they are racing, so all in all.. its really not the "noobs" fault you crashed..

say.. you get rearended, well this happens every day on a regular basis, but what do you say to the person that ran into you .. you noob.. ..?? no you cant, there could be plenty of reasons why they rear ended you, but keep in mind you could have resolved that problem when you saw that they were not stopping

its like what you say when you get in a car accident and the officer asks you what happened.. you wouldnt say "well he ran into me!" no.. never do that, just say "we had an accident" dont blame anyone on anything, all situations in this world are avoidable (well.. depending on their extremities) but otherwise majority of problems are avoidable as the great saying goes from Thomas Paine "These are the times that try men's souls" meaning you had the chance to take action.. but you didn't, and since people today are very accustomed to laziness.. we just dont do anything and hope it goes by easily

[speedfreak227]

i can see your point but there's a problem with it. i've only got 1900 miles but i can get within a few seconds of world records because i've got real racing experience.

an idea i was thinking of a while back was to put a lap time requirement. the server could check the person's best lap times online for the track/car configuration and if they didn't meet the set time they couldn't enter.

one problem is that they may not have driven that car/track combo but then they can ust go burn a few laps off on another server to update their personal bests if need be.

how's that sound?

speedfreak227

[XCNuse]

sounds like your seperating the fast from the slow

like i said, a fool can be fast.. easily
having fast times doesnt necesarily mean your a clean driver, once again you can apply this to daily life going down a road.. you can be going 50 down a highway, and someone flys by at around 80.. but just because your going 50 doesnt mean you wont get in a car accident.
its not that i dont agree with it, its just a loophole that cant be fixed, because there will always be problems that just wont compromise with your idea

in very short terms, a "noob" can be fast and clean; however, a veteran can also be fast and clean, but that doesnt keep either of them from causing havoc

[speedfreak227]

ok, i think i've got the ultimate solution.

if your online name doesn't end with "227" then you don't get into the server.

problem solved.

seriously though, there is no "one solution fits all". i find the CRC servers pretty good and that's why i'm one of their current applicants.

now if i could only et my computer back from the computer shop i'd be able to race again. :o(

speedfreak227

[XCNuse]

yep, thats what the CRC is there for.. unfortunately, thats only 1 server .. (well.. atleast its not many) and it usually is the XF/UF GTR class that i see every time, and well.. im pretty sure you get bored of racing that lol, so thats another problem.. so yes, its one of those things that just cant be easily fixed.. and most likely it wont, only organizations such as the CRC are helping cure this situation, but it will be a neverending situation so.. unfortunately, there is no programming you can do to keep the unclean drivers out of races

[tonyyeb]

I suppose so... well it was a suggestion and like a lot of ideas... it needed thinking through.


Thanks for the input guys

[danowat]

I was on a server last night with a number of "noobs" on it, now what was unique about this was that instead of the "noobs" getting brow beaten into disco'ing or kicked, they were taught how to race properly and encouraged to do things the right way, and after a few races these guys were coming along very, very well, they were greatfull for the help and support and the rest were greatfull that the races werent being ruined anymore.

Its not the noobs that have got to change, its the elitist attitudes of some experianced LFS drivers, we were all new to this once, and instead of this elitist I am better than you attitude, actually encourage new drivers and let them learn from your experiance.

Dan.

[XCNuse]

yep, good way of putting it dan

by hating them, your only making the situation worse, if i race and get hit severely by a "noob" which i knew was causing accidents, but i had no choice and had to pass him and he crashed me.. im not gonna sit there and yell at him and cuss.. that only makes things worse, i just pit and keep going

its like when you come across a driver down a road thats in a rage and is speeding and whatnot.. you wont sit there on the brakes and going slower and make him more mad, that just makes evvvverything worse in all ways

[SoulHunter100]

I was on a server last night with a number of "noobs" on it, now what was unique about this was that instead of the "noobs" getting brow beaten into disco'ing or kicked, they were taught how to race properly and encouraged to do things the right way, and after a few races these guys were coming along very, very well, they were greatfull for the help and support and the rest were greatfull that the races werent being ruined anymore.

Its not the noobs that have got to change, its the elitist attitudes of some experianced LFS drivers, we were all new to this once, and instead of this elitist I am better than you attitude, actually encourage new drivers and let them learn from your experiance.

Dan.

very agreed, alot of games have this problem, but the more experienced players see it more as a right rather than causing a problem :(. as for slow drivers, isnt that like, part of racing entirely? as for XCNuse, very well done, alot of them crash into peeps to piss them off, no reaction only gives them less enjoyment from it. i feel sorta stink sometimes though cause in a big game my comp can go to severe framerates at take off which has totaled upto 5 other cars at times :schwitz:. as for keeping less experienced drivers in a game, i dont think it can be avoided.

[mrodgers]

Very very well put, danowat!! I'm not the fastest or the best driver out there. I am very slow even though I have 8 months experience with LFS and 10 years experience with racing games and sims. Back when the S2 demo was released, this happened alot. Newbies (noobs is more the term to stereotype the folks who don't want to learn and such) were joining in the demo left and right. You could spot them a mile away. Many times I would jump to spectate and watch them for a few laps. Then ask them if they were new, did they need a setup, and give them big pointers. Many times I'd see someone join mid race and hear comments like "Wee, this is fun! Look at me, check out the donuts......" I would spec them and let them know that other's were racing and not to do that on the track. I would get responses like, Oh, ok, sorry, and they would move over to the corner off the track and have their little fun. I'd tell them that people take racing here very seriously. They'd join in the next race and follow around in the back of the field learning. I'd send them a setup and give them pointers and usually, everyone I came across would behave and be willing to learn and appreciative of the help.

And I'm not just saying that this is me that did this back in the demo days. Everyone was doing it. Everyone was willing to help out the new guys. Now it seems that everyone is turning elitist and you'd better get out of their way when they are coming. We as a community need to get back to the way it was in the beginning of S2 demo where newbies were tollerated, welcomed, and helped. If you don't welcome and help the newbies, that is when they turn to the darkside and ruin the fun. They don't join the community and our community doesn't grow.

[Doorman]

What a cracking thread. It's heartening to see such mature responses.

[tonyyeb]

I guess this is more of a solution than just alienating them but obviously it will take longer and more patience. Maybe more newbie friendly servers where people (like those here) can help racers improve.

[Stellios]

You do realise that these n00bs might have played the demo for however many years and may be less n00bish than you expect?

Personally i think its a stupid idea. If every server starts requiring say 5000 miles of experience then anyone that had just purchased the game is screwed unless they can host their own server.

[tonyyeb]

You do realise that these n00bs might have played the demo for however many years and may be less n00bish than you expect?

Personally i think its a stupid idea. If every server starts requiring say 5000 miles of experience then anyone that had just purchased the game is screwed unless they can host their own server.

Thanks Stellios but if you read the above posts, you will see i have pretty much conceeded defeat on this one. There is now way of dealing with noobs in a technological way... more of a social way is needed.

[Fordman]

I was on a server last night with a number of "noobs" on it, now what was unique about this was that instead of the "noobs" getting brow beaten into disco'ing or kicked, they were taught how to race properly and encouraged to do things the right way, and after a few races these guys were coming along very, very well, they were greatfull for the help and support and the rest were greatfull that the races werent being ruined anymore.

Its not the noobs that have got to change, its the elitist attitudes of some experianced LFS drivers, we were all new to this once, and instead of this elitist I am better than you attitude, actually encourage new drivers and let them learn from your experiance.

Dan.

Very well Put Dan. I think, you was talking about me there. Ok so I stopped my nights racing to help our, hmm Funckster I think it was, but to see him do PB after PB after we stopped and chatted, was a great sence of acheivement for me, as I must have advised him right.

But yes, I agree, I wish some more would do this. As It was Sinbad and Lefty that done this for me, way back in the Demo Days, and I am mearly passing this great advise on.

Cannot remember who it was, Lefty or Sinbad, but the best peice of advise I have ever received was.

Treat Your corners like your women
Slow in Fast out :Looking_a

Trust me it works ( for LFS that is ) :shhh:

Fordie

[Fordman]

Mods ( Gunn so far I see ) I think this needs to be moved to the general section, as this is solid advise for everybody to read included in this thread.

Its actually the first thread I have seen, not to hit out at the new drivers of LFS, but actually to advise us more experienced drivers :)

Fordie

[Gunn]

Mods ( Gunn so far I see ) I think this needs to be moved to the general section, as this is solid advise for everybody to read included in this thread.

Its actually the first thread I have seen, not to hit out at the new drivers of LFS, but actually to advise us more experienced drivers :)

FordieFirst of all I support the idea proposed in the topic of being able to regulate server users based on experience. I think that in itself would improve my own personal LFS experience on public servers. I also think that distance-based measures of experience are probably the most accurate appraisal that can be made "at a glance".

The attitude of posters this topic (apart from not accepting the benefits of regulated servers) is very promising indeed because of course the only true and "best" solution is education for the inexperienced and tolerance of the ignorant.
It is all well and good to talk about being tolerant and helpful to others, and it is encouraging to see many here doing that, but it is not enough for us to merely talk like this. Our community must begin embracing and being responsible for itself in respect to matters of rookie drivers (I don't think the term "n00bs" really should be used, even though it is often used in a friendly context). But this issue of education is more complex than it seems. First and foremost our community needs people to lead by example. Next, those examples should be made apparent to the community so that support is generated for the concept. A concentrated effort is required if we are to set a precedent for ourselves. People need to offer their time and services to help others for this to work, plus general attitudes must change (which has evidently been a pleasant occurance in this topic).

Rather than move this topic to the general LFS discussion area I will create a new topic specifically for the purpose of educating and accomodating our rookie drivers. In fact I would like to talk to Victor about perhaps adding a special board that our community can use to prepare and educate newer or struggling drivers. That's how important I think this issue is. Accepting, educating, and training new drivers can only help to strengthen our community plus it will make racing and public servers much more interesting, clean and competitive. As so many of you have rightfully identified, the best path will be found by acceptance and understanding, tackling the issues at the source is a smarter approach than merely reacting to the symptoms. I'll get back to you soon.

[BlueSkunk]

hi,

a while ago i was on a race where some crack driver spent maybe half an hour sitting in some beginners car and typing suggestions. that beginner ended up doing faster laps than me. i still thought that was a cool move of that dude.

don't know, though, if this happens a lot.

i guess there are only few people who would refuse that kind of help.

regards,

roland

[vpr01]

Another one against this idea. I have real life race experience (and quite a lot of it), and I'm pretty good at the game too. Having not driven much miles, I'd still call myself a skilled driver in this game and expect to get on the more skilled servers.

I'm just miffed at the tyre physics at slow speeds, I can't quite get my head around it sometimes, since im so used to being on the track IRL.

[Chin Boy]

Us noobs do need experiance (or all the good drivers will run out of opponants).
How about sorting the fast from the slow on the grid. I don't know how the positions are selected but I occasionally find myself on row 1 or 2 and this is when problems occur as I can't pull away as fast as some drivers behind me who either run into the back of me (careless) or I get overtaken on both sides at the same time - also a recipie for disaster.

The grid position should be on a basis of number of races won for track car combo and not fastest lap. (I get reasonable laps but not two in a row!) This would mimic a qualifing period and enable everyone to get straight to racing.

The elite should also realise that a race is not won on the first corner. A bundle into T1 always causes probs so best to hang back by one or two seconds and overtake one car at a time rateher than several.

[Slartibartfast]

I like this idea as a filter. It would mean yet another set of buttons from the devs, but I can see it working off the car/track combo stats. Many solid racers join races they've never been to online or off and end up noobing around for a few laps until they get their line and set straightened out. I am, of course, guilty of the same and wouldn't mind spending a few laps in a restricted setting, getting my stuff together. I can't see how it would take from the game, there are so many open servers out there that allow us to set up whatever race we want.

The start thing could be sorted too. I also find my self on row one when I definately should not be. Shift+S.

PS, it just occured to me that wreckers probably don't complete a lot of laps at a given track, prefering to spend their time at one corner or going backwards. Do backwards laps count in the stats?

[atledreier]

I kinda like having the new guys up front. The races usually end up in the same or even worse mess than if it started with the experienced drivers up front. Why? Because many so-called experienced drivers feel they have a god given right to jam their way through the field before the first lap is over, just because they can do the lap 2 seconds faster. If I'm in a field where I'm more experienced, I love the challenge of passing the other drivers, working my way through the field, not ramming through. Ok, I won't set a new PB that race, but who cares if I'm having fun, right?

IMO, what separates a noob from a newbie is the willingness to learn and accept the opinions and advice from more experienced drivers. I give advice as often as I can, and if my advice makes some new guys get a new PB, it really makes my day!

I started GURU (Grown Up Racing Union, www.grownupracing.com (http://www.grownupracing.com)) for this very reason. If any GURU member are online there, feel free to ask them anything.

[STROBE]

IMO, what separates a noob from a newbie is the willingness to learn and accept the opinions and advice
Absolutely. Although PBs or laps/distance completed is the only measurable way we have of measuring anyones ability, n00biness is very much an attitude/social issue.

Imho, n00bs are expendable, and can/should be kicked/banned on sight from servers when they start causing problems. Newbies, on the other hand, should be welcomed and encouraged to learn and join in.

How do you tell the difference? It's certainly not always down to speed. But my time at AS3 in the GTR cars this evening demonstrated it nicely.

In one race, I nudged the back of another car in T1 - enough to unsettle us both and slide, but not enough to cause a spin. Naturally I immediately hit F8, which is binded to "sorry". On the approach to the first hairpin (still first lap) I was at the back of a four car slipstream, and locked my wheels the moment i touched the brakes, with having so little aero downforce. I immediately jinked to the left to try and avoid running into the back of the same car in front, who most likely thought I was attempting a passing maneuver and defended the corner, as well as him having his own cars to avoid in front. Unfortunately, this was the same car I hit in T1, and again I ran into him, this time spinning him out. I apologised again, and after I finished the race which he retired from, we had a quick chat about where I went wrong and I apologised again. I'd say my actions in this race could be interpreted as being somewhat newbieish - I was after all a bit rusty having not raced as much recently and readily admitted fault, especially for the T1 incident. And the other car involved happened to be the quickest guy on the server at that moment.

Shortly after, in another race, I was duelling with an FXR driver. He ran into the back of me three times in the first lap, never apologised, and always ran with the advantage he created of pushing me wide. I made a point of standing my ground on the back straight by leaving him only the room for his car, scraping door paint with him as my FZR powered past, only for him to (quite deliberately) rear-end me much harder at the final hairpin before the chicane. I ended up in the wall with smashed suspension, and started a kick vote, followed by a brief exchange of insults. He retaliated by starting a ban vote on me (which, rather dishearteningly, was supported by the fastest guy I apologised to earlier, despite us both being known to each other on that server). Neither of our votes succeeded.

The moral of this rather long-winded story?

The rude twat in the FXR could run a low 1:45, comfortably in the top third of racers on the server at that time, and often competing for 3rd/4th place. No matter what laptimes he could run, he was acting like a n00b instead of being civil, fair, and taking responsibility for his actions. n00biness has nothing to do with speed or miles driven, sadly. :(

[NotAnIllusion]

Yeah I was a bit surprised you got a second vote then, but hey shit happens. It was a one-off bad set of races, with a coincidence. The fastest FZR driver and you both are fair racers. The FXR driver just has a very aggressive driving style (and probably was a bit pissed off due to me pwning him in lap times..). It doesn't happen often with you As3 GTR regulars. I'd just let this slip and die on its own.. :)

[STROBE]

Agreed, which is why I neglected to mention any names. ;) Thanks for the vote of confidence, even though I had an appalling set of races tonight overall. Nonetheless, I'd disagree on the FXR driver just being "very aggressive". Sometimes, when the situation is appropriate, I'll drive aggressively; making threatening moves down the inside of corners, deliberately blocking the whole line if I'm defending through a corner, etc - anything that's firm but fair. But what he was doing was very different - making no effort to adjust braking points according to who he was following (given that FZRs usually have to brake sooner than FXRs) is one thing, but deliberately punting me off (and I know it was deliberate as I jinked slightly to the right before the turn in point for the final hairpin, fearing he was going to come steaming into me yet again, and he followed me exactly) is quite different - and to me is classed as malicious rather than merely aggressive.

This is getting a bit off-topic, but hopefully illustrates the need for some way of differentiating between those who race fairly no matter how new or slow they are, and those who drive maliciously no matter how fast or experienced they are. Even though I freely admit to having no idea how such a thing can be achieved.

PS. Since when could you do a low 1:44 every race at AS3?! We used to be neck and neck, now I can barely keep up with you while I'm only running high 1:44s. :p

[Slartibartfast]

I started GURU (Grown Up Racing Union, www.grownupracing.com (http://www.grownupracing.com)) for this very reason. If any GURU member are online there, feel free to ask them anything.

Your advice has certainly gotten me a few PBs and my FO8 set is dang near perfect because of you trackside skills. Woulnd't mind another session like that when you get some time.

Seen any Monsrosities lately? :smileypul

[NotAnIllusion]

I know it was deliberate as I jinked slightly to the right before the turn in point for the final hairpin, fearing he was going to come steaming into me yet again, and he followed me exactly

Aye, fair enuff. I don't have a prob with a newbie (or a rustie hehe) making even several mistakes, but n00bs who intentionally do more than give you a slight prod up the rear end need to find their own server!

P.S. I was actually shocked at my driving, in a good way, just happened one day when I drove a 45.67 split and thought "well heck, if I can do that again.." :p

[MoBy]

i dont know what to say that hasnt been said :)

but i will say this.
Thank you guys that are supporting and helpfull to the Rookie. And thank you rookies for joining everybody in some good fun racing.

Also, its nice to have people out there to educate the other drivers. With experince in the area of inexperience i do say thanks for all those drivers letting me barrow setups and even try to HELP ME make my own. haha

with that said.....can i get a burger somewhere?