Engine Tuning and Car Tweaking...

[Dasser]

Why not make it possible to tweak the engine???
Like lower or raise turbo boost, on turbo cars, more boost makes the engine heat go up and wears the engine over short time, and lower boost makes the engine last longer, maybe...
And tweak of the camshafts intake/exhaust.
Idle rpms and top rpms.
And adjustments for the fuel pump...
Just simple or advanced engine tuning...
And maybe upgrades to buy for the racing credits, turbo, performans upgrades.
And the possibility of changing spoilers or adding spoilers for better looks and traction.

[tristancliffe]

Congratulations - you are the 1,000,000th person to suggest this unfeasible and silly idea(s)...

[Dasser]

What is unfeasible and silly about tweaking an engine??? It happens in real life, so it must be possible in a game...

[mattlikespeoples]

yeah, but its just been suggested to death. just wait for fonnybone to release LFSTweak for S2 whether that be fo S2 alpha or the full version....whenever that might be. take your time, devs, we know it's alot of work :nod:

and to fonnybone-HURRY UP ON THAT S2 ALPHA LFSTweak!!!!!!!!! :razz:

[L(Oo)ney]

and to fonnybone-HURRY UP ON THAT S2 ALPHA LFSTweak!!!!!!!!! :razz:

I know you was only joking (hence the smilie), but Fonnybone makes LFSTweak by himself, its just as much work as the devs have to cope with imo, so he should also take his time. ;)

[XCNuse]

sounds like you have given into NFSU2 quite honestly

for me, i would be what you would call a racing purist, yes i may enjoy looking at some tuned cars and whatnot, but i dont believe in unfair races.. either you let them defeat you or you join them.. but fighting doesnt accomplish anything.

anyways, things such as interchangable spoilers is just another one of those great things that leads to no advantage at all (if anything its a disadvantage) in your case its a very awful reason for "looks" which isnt what LFS is trying to accomplish, so basically what would happen here is people would make these beastly cars and then just go around beating everyone into the ground who have no advantage.. and once again, that just leads to corruption once again

and one last thing about some of those.. i fear that would attract the wrong crowd

[Cue-Ball]

Please, don't add engine tuning to LFS. Fine tuning the suspension to suit your driving style is great, but adding all sorts of moddability to the engine is just going to stack races in favor of those who have the "best mods". Eventually everyone will download the "best" engine setup and we'll be right back to where we are now, but with a huge increase in complexity.

Let's keep it simple and leave the car's powertrains as they are.

[Woz]

Why not make it possible to tweak the engine???
Like lower or raise turbo boost, on turbo cars, more boost makes the engine heat go up and wears the engine over short time, and lower boost makes the engine last longer, maybe...
And tweak of the camshafts intake/exhaust.
Idle rpms and top rpms.
And adjustments for the fuel pump...
Just simple or advanced engine tuning...
And maybe upgrades to buy for the racing credits, turbo, performans upgrades.
And the possibility of changing spoilers or adding spoilers for better looks and traction.

No no no...... Car upgrading and the like is fine offline if you like the GT4 pokemon style of game (Car collection etc) where you don't need skill to win the races because you just upgrade your car to be faster than the AI but online it sucks.

What is better... You win the race knowing all the cars have the same performance and its your skill as a driver that got the win or the fact you have more credits (Or have found a cheat/hack) so you have all the best bits and you only win because you have the faster car.

If you want the second option why not just use a faster car then everyone else in the race is using as its much the same!

BTW, there was a cheat out for rFactor DAY ONE that allowed you to upgrade your car fully so what is the point.

As for car looks with stupid body kits, wings, spoilers etc. Grow up. Next you will be telling us you have cut your suspension spring on your car down so low it is sat on the end stops because it looks cool.

[Thomas Fink]

One good thing about LFS is the ability to optimize a lot of things - in the chassis. So asking why nothing can be done in the engine is a very valid question.

Of course I would hate to have to buy things. I dont want to see any dollar sign in the whole game.

But why not include an small engine section where some simple things can be optimized?
For example the torque curve could be set pronounced and high at a certain engine speed or broader and not peaking so high. modifying the intake section does that.

There could be a setting for fuel mixture (that would only be useful in long races, but why not)
Rich mixture would mean higher power and less mileage!
It is done in F1.

Or a booster setting for the turbos?
If I can ruin an engine by overrevving why not by overboosting?
Perhaps a mild effect (loss of one cylinder maybe) ?

Two or three options would add to the realism of the game!

[Hyperactive]

What for?

Engine damage...sure
Engine tuning...nooo!

[Stellios]

Would not like to see this at all. Setting maximum RPM would be a good option for the racing cars, but playing with boost etc would deter me from the game big time.

I like being able to fine tune suspensions and gears etc to suit your own personal driving style, but modifying the engine is a no no to me personally. Partly because i would be clueless where to start, and secondly because it would give too much of an advantage to those knowledgeable in engines.

Leaving the engine alone ensures that a fair race is possible when ytou have your gears etc set up properly.

[tristancliffe]

Would not like to see this at all. Setting maximum RPM would be a good option for the racing cars, but playing with boost etc would deter me from the game big time.

I like being able to fine tune suspensions and gears etc to suit your own personal driving style, but modifying the engine is a no no to me personally. Partly because i would be clueless where to start, and secondly because it would give too much of an advantage to those knowledgeable in engines.

Leaving the engine alone ensures that a fair race is possible when ytou have your gears etc set up properly.

EXACTLY!

[Vendetta]

You are now Tristans friend :D.

[speedfreak227]

If I can ruin an engine by overrevving why not by overboosting?

because race cars which are allowed higher than atmosphereic manifold pressure have a "pop-off" valve to ensure they don't exceed a preset maximum pressure.

though it might be interesting if over revving allowed for you to pop the pop-off valve and you lost precious seconds while it reseated itself.

speedfreak227

[xapexcivicx]

because race cars which are allowed higher than atmosphereic manifold pressure have a "pop-off" valve to ensure they don't exceed a preset maximum pressure.

though it might be interesting if over revving allowed for you to pop the pop-off valve and you lost precious seconds while it reseated itself.

speedfreak227
Exactly what I was gonna say









:)

[Kramer]

Would not like to see this at all. Setting maximum RPM would be a good option for the racing cars, but playing with boost etc would deter me from the game big time.

I like being able to fine tune suspensions and gears etc to suit your own personal driving style, but modifying the engine is a no no to me personally. Partly because i would be clueless where to start, and secondly because it would give too much of an advantage to those knowledgeable in engines.

Leaving the engine alone ensures that a fair race is possible when ytou have your gears etc set up properly.

You can also fine tune the engine to suit your personal driving style and for the track (just like the suspensions), I think that 99% of the people who see the chassis adjustments its clueless at the 1st time because the modeling of the suspension, direction and tyres i.s not 100% realistic so you start a the same level in both cases.
Saludos.



Ps: Sorry for my english.

[Hyperactive]

So far only thing that I might be accepting is that the cars would have some changeable part that don't change any of the car's specs. Like wings with different kinds of shapes and rims (changeable inside he game) for ecample. But I wouldn't want any tuning stuff in LFS - most of those tuning cars look just overdone and childish to me :)

[maczo]

Someone earlier in this thread reminded me of one thing in a motorcycle game (GP500). There was engine selection - 3 engines: high-revving&high-powered(at the peak only) one, one with broader powerband but with less top power and one somewhere between*. This, i think, could be added some day (s4? ;) ). IMO it would(could?) add to the racing experience - if one guy chooses the high-powered one and the other one the low-end, one will be slightly faster on straights, but will supposedly lose time in slower, tighter sections. This should not influence the total performance (well, ok, choosing the low-powered one for tracks with long straights would be suicide etc.), but rather racing strategy. That ofcourse is wishful thinking and would require the differences between engines to be well thought out...
Ok, that's the end, flame away :D

cheers,
maczo

* - three different engines for one car would be strange, so let's say these would be called engine setups (cams, intake or whatever) for the sake of realism ;)

[johnmcaulay]

The only race series I know of that uses pop off valves on the turbos to limit pressure to a level set by their rules is indycar, and it works on the principle that if the limit is reached the valve opens and lets all the boost go, then closes so they loose all their boost for a while slowing them down. I don't think there are boost pressure limits in other race series, but all turbocharged engines should have some kind of overpressure protection valve to protect the engine.

[Hankstar]

If this stuff ended up in LFS it'd turn into Gran Turismo/NFSU/Midnight Club, where the most modded car wins everything - in fact you need all the hot bits to win at all, the further you go - and then I think loads of people would quit playing.

LFS is a driving sim and demands that your skill get you across the line first, not your after-market accessories.

But having said that I would like some fluffy dice for my UF1000.

[Gunn]

If engine tuning and mods were in LFS, I would stop playing. Fair racing would go out the window and we'd have to endure all the silly questions and confusion about which tuning is best for which car on which track. People who understood the tuning system would excell, and those who can't grasp it would fail dismally in comparison. Say goodbye to a lot of racers.

[Hankstar]

Yup. I'd probably lose interest. There's already enough to collect in the way of skins, setups and layouts as well as many other assorted unofficial addons - one or two of which would make good substitutes for the kind of mod mentioned here.

Funny how this type of suggestion generally gets shot down pretty fast, yet people keep bringing it up anyway. I'm guessing it's in the Suggestions Log already, and probably more than once. Makes me wonder if anyone reads the Log before posting :)

[Greboth]

I agree with that having modifications fot lfs is a bad idea, if u want that nfsu is there for that, but i think as was said earlier, changing engine mapping so u can change power band and torque curve would b good as means then culd change this to the different tracks and driving styles eg - u cant always keep sum cars in the high revs where the power is, so might be good to lower power band so easier to stay in. This isnt reli modifiying the enigne just changin its characteristics. Altho it may deter people who dont no bout engines, altho changin 2 simple curves isnt hard to learn.
Thats my view anyway.

[Hankstar]

Probably not a bad idea in theory, but I think the best thing is to keep it simple engine-wise, not just for the drivers' sakes (there are probably plenty of guys like me who know how to work the car but have no idea exactly how the car works :)) but for SEV's sake too. Making engine characteristics would probably mean more work for the devs and (possibly) longer waiting times for LFS players, and noone wants that :)

I don't know that much about engine mapping and that stuff so, out of personal interest, would changing those characteristics make much more difference to your lap time than a good suspension setting and the right gearing (not to mention good driving, fuel load, tyre choice)? I know it does make a difference but would it actually be worth including in LFS?

[johnmcaulay]

I think I agree with Hankstar it wouldn't be worth having the ability to adjust engine tuning, too much confusion and disadvantage for those who don't care for knowing too much detail of how an engine works. Much better to allow people to change suspension and tyres, as the engine is already pretty much set in advance of race testing of setups, so it would just over complicate things.

[MadCatX]

Everyone who said No to engine tweaking/modding is right. I know that I will repeat what was already said,but... I must say it.:) \

LFS is about racing, and racing is about skills, car control, using the brain, estimating the right speed in the corners etc, not about holding the N2O key down. That's how EA "racing" series shows it. Who wants moddded engine with N2O, airslamming turbo, precise set fuel mixture and timing, then he have to look for another game.

NFS/Tuning mania just hit the world hard and a lot of "racers" see the magic of racing in 750HP engine. So let them tune theirs arcade-based hi-poly "rides" and lets get XF GTI, I bet we'll have much better time than tuners:)

[Greboth]

I agree with madcatX on that one about if want tuning use EA.

Just the turbos and all and N2O is crap idea, the engine mapping tho would be nice to see, altho it would cause another thing some people to learn. It also would be alot of work.

Overall my view would be that it would be nice (to be able to change torque curves and power cuves) as would simulate another part of racing, as it is part of setting up the car. But realistically, having it would cause too much trouble really, and wouldnt be worth it.

[pimpshiva]

its ridiculous that the established anti-tuner's on the forum use "would be too complex and offer too much advantage" as a reason to complain about the possible addition to lfs. more people understand engine's than suspensions. engines have as much to do with a fast lap as a well sorted suspension.

example: drive your favorite set 2 laps around blackwood (no practice laps), than do same in a car with 0 toe settings, 30 spring rate, 15 shock rating, max sway setting, braking bias set to 80.

result: although the car is still drivable, the handling will change significantly, and you would not be able to set a record no matter how good a driver you are.

from what ive learned about suspension tuning over the years (as something that does not interest me), soft springs increase grip, firm shocks increase car control, sways increase grip in corners, and front tires do about 80% of braking on a car. i know more about suspension tuning that most racers, but my best efforts for the first couple months were half-assed and ineffective. yet racers who do know suspension tuning (or know someone who does) insist that suspension tuning does not affect the equality of the playing field, and that it is understood by everyone.

example: put your best set and the example set specified in the example above on ai cars, let them run 10 laps practice and watch their lap times as they proceed.

result: the ideal setup will start with lower lap times, and improve more per lap than the other one. after 30-50 laps, both ai racers will be at their best lap times with the set they are in, and both times will be close (showing what would be possible by top racers even in sets that are not ideal), but the ideal set will still be between 0.1-1.5 seconds faster per lap. this is because suspension tuning has a huge effect on the balance of racing.

it is much easier to play-balance cars with modified engines than it is to balance cars with modified suspensions. modified engines can be limited by peak hp, avg hp, hp per liter, hp per kg, to fit within a class/equal racing system. modified suspensions cannot have their peaks and avg's calculated to balance the field, there is always a "best set" on the field which others will have to keep up with. regardless of driver skill, suspension tuning can make or break a race effort, and cannot be balanced to a class/equality system. even if you calculate a car's slalom/skidpad/acceleration/braking times/distances, you cannot quantify exactly how much of an advantage a set will have over another one on a given racetrack until your actually racing.

[RMachucaA]

sure MR. S1 licensed.

Engine tuning does nothing to improve driving skill, hence drifters love it. With suspension tuning, you have to learn the right lines, setting up the suspension properly for the fastest time\cleanest lines, its a combo of you and the car, getting the power down is just as important too, what good is a 10000000 HP engine if you cant setup the car to deliver proper grip to use it? hence drifting became an excuse for that :P.

And the ultimate goal is to become a better driver, this is not achieved by whos the fastest in a straight line, or who has the fastest car.... if your slow MR. S1 licensed, practice your lines, learn from other people and improve your skills, then you wont be using the engine tuning as an excuse.

I dont mean to be derogatory in this post, but i may have... im just tired of tuner types around here, so... sry bout that.

[hinirags]

Hello to everybody,

I am not a good driver (in the game :D ).

What i am loving in this game is that it is realistic enough! But that is not why i think i am a pilot!
Why are so many people here closed to the idea that everyone else playing this game has the same point of view???
It is always possible to regroup, as it has been told, the potentially modified engines by category, or "class"...

Why are you so offensed when someone speaks about something, maybe you can't handle (engine tuning) ?

Please keep in mind that even if you don't like an idea, some people may.

So if "improvments" to the game such as engine tuning doesn't force you to play the way you like to, why preventing other people from having something that they would them enjoy the game even more? :scratchch

Sébastien

[MadCatX]

Hello to everybody,

I am not a good driver (in the game :D ).

What i am loving in this game is that it is realistic enough! But that is not why i think i am a pilot!
Why are so many people here closed to the idea that everyone else playing this game has the same point of view???
It is always possible to regroup, as it has been told, the potentially modified engines by category, or "class"...

Why are you so offensed when someone speaks about something, maybe you can't handle (engine tuning) ?

Please keep in mind that even if you don't like an idea, some people may.

So if "improvments" to the game such as engine tuning doesn't force you to play the way you like to, why preventing other people from having something that they would them enjoy the game even more? :scratchch

I think that's because this has been already suggested for 1 000 000 000 times(as Tristan said) and LFS is not tuning game at all. It is racing game, and that makes a big difference. Starter of this thread(was it Dasser?) is probalby hit by tunung mania, as many people are.

For ex. when I was showing LFS to my friend, his first question was "And can also you tune the car here?" When I said no, he lost interest about LFS. Many people are aware of tuning, because EA and Universal(Need for Speed: Underground and Fast and Furious) commercialized it a lot. That's why just everyone wants tuning.

Maybe we behave too tough to "tunung-suggesters", but we just don't wanna see LFS changing to NFS-style game, and we will fight for it:)

[Jakg]

I think that's because this has been already suggested for 1 000 000 000 times(as Tristan said) and LFS is not tuning game at all. It is racing game, and that makes a big difference. Starter of this thread(was it Dasser?) is probalby hit by tunung mania, as many people are.

For ex. when I was showing LFS to my friend, his first question was "And can also you tune the car here?" When I said no, he lost interest about LFS. Many people are aware of tuning, because EA and Universal(Need for Speed: Underground and Fast and Furious) commercialized it a lot. That's why just everyone wants tuning.

Maybe we behave too tough to "tunung-suggesters", but we just don't wanna see LFS changing to NFS-style game, and we will fight for it:)i dont like the idea of tuning for a simple reason, i only participate in races (unless their autocross) where the cars are almost perfectly balanced

[RMachucaA]

Very rarely will a motorsport org. let engines run free of guidelines\regulations, its the norm in real life, it keeps things interesting, shows who's got talent and who doesnt (for the most part). So just let it be.

[hinirags]

But if setting the chassis is not tuning, what is it?

I know that we can easily change the power and caracteristics of the engines thanks to tools such as tweaks and mechanic.

But I think the "setup" of the engine is as much important as the chassis! In a certain limit (to avoid too big gaps between setups).

It is useless saying that a car such as the Gti in the normal life is impossible to set as it is in the game. (dampers, springs and all the angles...) So the game isn't so "pure". What would it lost if engine settings were added?

[tristancliffe]

The trouble is that suspension tuning is necessary to allow each driver, and their respective styles, to get the most of the car. I can't drive some of Flotch's setups becuase they are too weird, but I can drive, say, Csimpoks.

I don't think there is one 'best' setup for any given track because of driving styles.

However, with engine tuning, for a given track, there is one 'ultimate' configuration. Anyone running the wrong boost, ignition timing or whatever will be at a disadvantage to someone not running 'ultimate'. What does that mean? Well, eventually, everyone will run the same engine maps at each track, thus making the tuning bit useless. To start with it might be great while everyone finds the ultimate engine setup, but only for a few weeks. Therefore the programming work needed to make this happen would be wasted.

If LFS was more about longer races, and was very difficult to pass in, then I can see the benefit of different fuel maps for the high powered cars. Running leaner when stuck behind someone to conserve fuel, then going richer in clear air. But LFS is MAINLY about short races, and as such fuel maps will only make about 50 yards difference.

I'm not averse to engine tuning completely, but I do not believe that it would add anything to LFS. And besides, I bet you Scawen has already made up his mind whether to add Engine Tuning to his to-do list, so 1,000,000,000 threads about it won't do much to change his mind unless someone can come up with a VERY well reasoned arguement (not "wouldn't it be cool if...") for it.

[hinirags]

I don't really agree with you about the "ultimate engine setup", Tristan.

I think that, like for the chassis, it may depend on the driver's choice. You don't have the same trajectories depending of the driver, and he may require slightly different engine caracteristics. This point is even more important when we relate it to, as you said, the particularities of each pilot's chassis setup. Each engine should be adjusted to the chassis, and vice-versa. A car is a whole thing, and the only thing that you can not influence in LFS is the engine. However it is a major sub-system in a car.

Another thing, i am talking for myself, but i think other people can think like me: we are not all interested by having the perfect trajectory, and like having some fun. The races are not always ordered as it became the case in F1 these last years. So the diverstity in engine setups might be an advantage to give one more dimension to short races.

[Hyperactive]

You may have some points there, hinirags, but I have to agree with tristan (and maany others) that eventually all people would end with same engine setups to get the best performance. I would agree with you, hinirags, if LFS was about drag racing. With the chassis setups you set the car for the track so that it suits for your driving style. (I don't like Flotch's setup neither :D) But the engine is always tweaked for maximum power versus durability. Sometimes there are other things, like low end power for some slower tracks but I really can't see a big difference with/without having engine tweaking. The gain from having it is way too little for the effort to get it right and working.

There are a lots of leagues where the engine tweaking has been restricted and generally there are very few parts which you are allowed to change.

For sports2000 series, check their rules: One (http://www.akk-motorsport.fi/attachements/2004-02-02T11-57-272.pdf) Two (http://www.akk-motorsport.fi/attachements/2004-02-02T13-19-002.pdf)

Yes, it is quite limited series, but the general idea between many series is the same. Equal cars. I couldn't find the FiaGT rules, but I guess there are similar systems to allow very slight engine tuning, like changing the spark plugs, air filters...

What kind of engine tuning are you talking about?

[hinirags]

I don't really know, but as LFS doesn't propose to change parts, I think it is not usefull to propose "performance air filters" or "turbo stage 2".

I think it is out of question to change parts. But it is important to be able to change parameters.

For me, LFS is not giving to us real cars that we can set, but "prototypes" that are being set, like in real companies, where if something doesn't work well, you do it antoher way.

So i think things that should be set would be length of the tubes (inlet and exhaust) where the only thing which is done is to change the torque curve as a function of your track.
Then, as it has been told, it would be great to change things such as ignition timing for exemple, and injection time. All that would give more or less power. Keep in mind that more power implies more consumption. So maybe some pilotes will prefer a light car with low fuel but less power, or others more power but more fuel onboard. With that, you can adjust the balancing of the car with adding fuel in the tank and compensating by having more power.
You should be able of choose the diameter of ports. Bigger will help at high revs, wether smaller will help at low revs.
Also you can add filtering systems that are more or less efficient: the more the air is clean, the more your engine is reliable, but you have less power.
You should be able to change the inertia of flying wheel, which influences acceleration.
You should be able to change things that are automatically balanced by a disadvantage. So you have homogenous performance, but optained in a different way.

[MadCatX]

OK, OK, but why we need to set up the engine precisly, when there is one best setting providing the most power? I bet every driver will race with it, every engine will produce the same power and...... we are just where we were before tweaking. Every engine has same power and now everything depens on suspension setup and driver skill.
No, it will be much more work to do and it will not bring anything really new to game. Only reason why to implement engine tuning is different reliability. It would be drivers chioce is he wants 505HP and quite reliable engine that can work for all 50 laps, or if he wants 511HP and possibility that engine brokes down in 46th lap.... But engine damage is modelled very sparsely in LFS, so everything will need scripts and scripts are not good in sims. IMO the engine tweaking could be the LAST thing modelled on LFS, I say again THE LAST!

[hinirags]

I don't really understand your point of view when you say that setting the engine is not a part of the setup of the car...
If you have a certain gear ratio in a turning, maybe you will be to have more torque to go out of it, than with the standard engine configuration.

[MadCatX]

All right, engine setting is a part of car setup, but look for ex. on WTCC championship. There are many car brands there, and I bet that every Seat, BMW, Alfa and so on has the SAME engine setup as any other car of the same brand. Engine setup isn't the standard part of car setup. Engine is set properly in it's developement stage and there are no serious changes made during the race season. I am 99% sure that engine isn't set up for drivers needs, but driver has to famaliarize with engine. I've never heard any driver saying "I need a more torque at 4th gear in 5000rpm, adjust the fuel injection".

[hinirags]

All right, engine setting is a part of car setup, but look for ex. on WTCC championship. There are many car brands there, and I bet that every Seat, BMW, Alfa and so on has the SAME engine setup as any other car of the same brand. Engine setup isn't the standard part of car setup. Engine is set properly in it's developement stage and there are no serious changes made during the race season. I am 99% sure that engine isn't set up for drivers needs, but driver has to famaliarize with engine. I've never heard any driver saying "I need a more torque at 4th gear in 5000rpm, adjust the fuel injection".

So do you often hear someone with a 205Gti doing rally saying "in need to pass from 3,234 to 3,254 gear ratio"?

[Racer Y]

I too like the idea of engine tuning - in theory. It sounds like a great idea.
Only as been said before. it would only last a short time. Everyone will be running the motors the same way. So there really wouldn't be much of a difference. Also, making a decent set up is hard enough with out having to
fool with displacement, piston stroke and making sure the crank is balanced.
I think in the long run engine tuning would have a negative impact on the game overall. It would get so bogged down in technical details, it would kill the fun factor. plus, you'd have a lot A LOT of mismatched and unbalanced races until everyone settled on the "uber set-up".It would also pave the way for cheating. How would you know if someone wasn't just using a macro?
Nah. The idea of engine tuning is kinda like political ideologies. it works great on paper, but when actually applied, it sorta sucks. :)

[hinirags]

I too like the idea of engine tuning - in theory. It sounds like a great idea.
Only as been said before. it would only last a short time. Everyone will be running the motors the same way. So there really wouldn't be much of a difference. Also, making a decent set up is hard enough with out having to
fool with displacement, piston stroke and making sure the crank is balanced.
I think in the long run engine tuning would have a negative impact on the game overall. It would get so bogged down in technical details, it would kill the fun factor. plus, you'd have a lot A LOT of mismatched and unbalanced races until everyone settled on the "uber set-up".It would also pave the way for cheating. How would you know if someone wasn't just using a macro?
Nah. The idea of engine tuning is kinda like political ideologies. it works great on paper, but when actually applied, it sorta sucks. :)

Contradictory I think :thumb:
Moreover, i would say that if you are not good at doing a setup for the chassis, you could find here the chance to fill the gap! :D

[Hyperactive]

Contradictory I think :thumb:
Moreover, i would say that if you are not good at doing a setup for the chassis, you could find here the chance to fill the gap! :D

You get easily better times with better chassis setup than with little more power.


If we would some day get engine tweaking in LFS the first thing I would do is that I'd go searching that best engine setup. That one which consumes least fuel, has best reliability and highest power and widest torque qurve.

Engine setups would be pure black magic for most of us. Changing ignition timings, valve opening/closing timing, ecu parameters. woosh! No chance. Though changing to the lightest flywheel is something I could do too :)

Again. It would take way too much time to make it realistic/usable and balanced system. It would be more useful to get other setup possibilities for the racing cars, like racing shocks with more parameters.

Only "engine tweaking" I would approve (if asked ;)) would be the fuel mixture setting (lean/rich) and same kind of grille tape system that is in Nascar. And that mixture setting would have no noticeable effect on performance. And that grille tape system would maybe get some 0,1 seconds per lap. With hotter engine.

[P5YcHoM4N]

Why not make it possible to tweak the engine???
Like lower or raise turbo boost, on turbo cars, more boost makes the engine heat go up and wears the engine over short time, and lower boost makes the engine last longer, maybe...
And tweak of the camshafts intake/exhaust.
Idle rpms and top rpms.
And adjustments for the fuel pump...
Just simple or advanced engine tuning...
And maybe upgrades to buy for the racing credits, turbo, performans upgrades.
And the possibility of changing spoilers or adding spoilers for better looks and traction.
Sounds like you need to play Street Legal Redline Racing. :P

Has all the tuning options you asked for there.

[MadCatX]

So do you often hear someone with a 205Gti doing rally saying "in need to pass from 3,234 to 3,254 gear ratio"?

No, set tranny with precision that actually is in LFS is quite impossible, but in real life is gearing set especially for current track, but engine has still SAME SETTING.....:shrug:

Sounds like you need to play Street Legal Redline Racing. :P
Agreed!

[Racer Y]

Contradictory I think :thumb:
Moreover, i would say that if you are not good at doing a setup for the chassis, you could find here the chance to fill the gap! :D

You might wanna read that again.... I said UNTIL the "uber set-up" is found :)

[MadCatX]

:iagree: completely with you.....

[Greboth]

sure MR. S1 licensed.

Engine tuning does nothing to improve driving skill, hence drifters love it. With suspension tuning, you have to learn the right lines, setting up the suspension properly for the fastest time\cleanest lines, its a combo of you and the car, getting the power down is just as important too, what good is a 10000000 HP engine if you cant setup the car to deliver proper grip to use it? hence drifting became an excuse for that :P.

And the ultimate goal is to become a better driver, this is not achieved by whos the fastest in a straight line, or who has the fastest car.... if your slow MR. S1 licensed, practice your lines, learn from other people and improve your skills, then you wont be using the engine tuning as an excuse.

I dont mean to be derogatory in this post, but i may have... im just tired of tuner types around here, so... sry bout that.

I am not gonna get into a drift V grip arguement here but drifters to have do have driving skill. Maybe on lfs u dont need that much "driving skill" but if u see the professional drifters then they do have incredible skill to do wat they do.
history lesson for u here - drifing came from japan, it came from street racers racing down mountain passes called touge (pronounce toe-gay) the roads are very twisty and usually only 2 lanes wide. Obviously to be the fastest round hairpins the car was set up to slide, like rally cars, this meant sliding the back of the car round corners, this was about 20 yrs ago, over that time it has developed to the d1 gp everyone knows nowadays. Yes drifing round a wide open track may not take as much skill, but it still takes skill. As said i dont want this turning into a drift grop arguement im just stating that drifters do have skill. Even though i enjoy watching drifting and drifting in lfs the cars they have are good enugh and dont need any more power really.
I am very into the japanese car scene which is about tuning cars and racing them drifting them etc, so would be nice for games to have that - oh wait just go by nfsu or w/e for that, although its pretty crap, although nfs most wanted alrite, neway thats off topic.
My only view on tuning cars it have them remapable eg a1 gp all cars are alike, but they must remap those engine for different circuits. I cant say that they do but in alot of race cars the engine are set up different for different tracks. I also no that this wuld b reli hard to model and would mean waiting for final S2 wuld be longer or wait for S3 (hopes there wil be) wuld b longer so it is no reli viable.
So all in all - tuning as in forced induction (turbos and superchargers for those who dont no) etc is out of the question would ruin lfs but i wuld like to see engine mapping, but i no its not viable to do so. so reli lfs shuld stay excatly how it is - with only suspension being able to be changed.

[P5YcHoM4N]

I would like to agree with you. But I couldn't read half of it.

And drifting isn't faster then taking a good line, which is why you never see race drivers doing it if they can help it. The only reason for drifting is because it's a crowd pleaser. Watching a car drive around a track can get dull, if the same car flys around all the corners sideways it adds to the enjoyment. Much like flat landing on super bikes. No need for it, but it looks good so it turned into a "professional sport", before it was just something to get the crowd going after a race.

But can you please use English. Who needs encryption to make documents secure, just get someone to type it in this short hand junk.

And "Drift Vs Grop", why not just say Grip.

[NotAnIllusion]

I fink 'is point woz dat..

Sliding around corners generally is not faster BUT in tight hairpins it IS faster than gripping through it. I think that point was mentioned earlier too. Classic Japanese touge racing specifically includes these sort of corners where drifting is actually faster.

The main point though, was that drifting takes skill to perform correctly. I might add my own viewpoint too. Gripping or drifting, it takes huge amounts of skill to consistenly perform maneuvres at the utmost limit.

When it comes to drifting being a spectator sport, I got the impression that e.g. a touge is far from it. Modern race track drifting, as long as it's not done individually, is perhaps more spectator oriented but still not actually for the audience whereas when drifting individually it's the only purpose.

Needless to say real drifters don't drift alone but battle it out. If you've ever watched drifting battles, even when performed on a race track, you can tell there is an element of competition in it and the more perfectly drifting driver will end up at the line first.

*edit:
Also consider that error margins in drifting battles are very, very small. One might even say smaller than in grip racing. Drifting is done over a lesser distance (tyres don't last :p) so there is less chance to catch up so backing up is simply not an option, unlike in grip racing you can wait and try the same move on the next lap. Watch how close drifters are, it looks incredibly demanding to keep the car so close, to get a better line. Keeping the car from going too wide or not wide enough and stopping the sliding altogether is far from easy, especially when the outside car's rear tyres may go slightly off the road and catch grass / dirt.

[RMachucaA]

I fink 'is point woz dat..

Sliding around corners generally is not faster BUT in tight hairpins it IS faster than gripping through it. I think that point was mentioned earlier too. Classic Japanese touge racing specifically includes these sort of corners where drifting is actually faster.

The main point though, was that drifting takes skill to perform correctly. I might add my own viewpoint too. Gripping or drifting, it takes huge amounts of skill to consistenly perform maneuvres at the utmost limit.

When it comes to drifting being a spectator sport, I got the impression that e.g. a touge is far from it. Modern race track drifting, as long as it's not done individually, is perhaps more spectator oriented but still not actually for the audience whereas when drifting individually it's the only purpose.

Needless to say real drifters don't drift alone but battle it out. If you've ever watched drifting battles, even when performed on a race track, you can tell there is an element of competition in it and the more perfectly drifting driver will end up at the line first.

*edit:
Also consider that error margins in drifting battles are very, very small. One might even say smaller than in grip racing. Drifting is done over a lesser distance (tyres don't last :p) so there is less chance to catch up so backing up is simply not an option, unlike in grip racing you can wait and try the same move on the next lap. Watch how close drifters are, it looks incredibly demanding to keep the car so close, to get a better line. Keeping the car from going too wide or not wide enough and stopping the sliding altogether is far from easy, especially when the outside car's rear tyres may go slightly off the road and catch grass / dirt.


And this has to do with engine tuning how?

*edited so no one cries.

[B2B@300]

Well I don't think some tweaking (not talking about bolting on a turbo here) of engine performance is unrealistic or would create any more uneven racing than the suspension setup options already do :shrug: having said that I don't think engine tunning/tweaking would add anything to LFS in its current form...

On the other hand, if in S3 component failure and stress is modeled then engine tunning would have consequences in this area and would make long races like the 24hr one just run alot more realistic and fun :thumb:

What I would also love to see (as has been suggested before) is leagues/ servers being able to set rules for racing (i.e. limit setup options, sets of tyres for a race or season, etc.)

At the moment we still mainly see very short races compared to real life (5 - 10 laps average) I think this is alot to do with the fact that there is no incentive to race longer, as we just race flat out at the moment with no consideration for many of the variables faced by real life drivers, and more laps is just more of the same :tilt: tyre temp/ wear has improved that situation a little. But I look forward to the day when many more factors come into play, like brake temp/ wear (brake fade/ failure), engine temp, track conditions (racing line differences dry verses wet as Tristian mentioned, different fliud spills from crashes or engine failure), component failure due to stresses imposed on the car by different driving styles, accidents, etc (engine, gear box, tyre, brake and even suspension and drive train reliability - wouldn't like to see totally random failure, failure linked to forces imposed on the car with a random element based on real life reliability data would be ideal), varing weather and light conditions during a race... just to name a few from the top of my head :shy:

I feal most of the races we see at the moment are at hotlap speed because drivers don't have to deal with varying track conditions or the reliability of their cars as in real life, then there's the issue that in a Sim you don't fear death :x :D

[NotAnIllusion]

@MachucaA:
None at all, P5YcHoM4N gave the impression he wasn't entirely sure what the post above his was getting at and I elaborated (extensively). What's yours got to do with engine tuning? Slag ppl of with PMs if you have the need, that way "no one cries".
[/offtopic_part2]

I don't think we should have engine tuning implemented, LFS should be a race driving simulator, not an engineer's simulation. At least to a reasonable extent. I honestly wouldn't know what to do with engine tuning, nor would I have the interest to look it up. I believe tuning is done by professionals and not your average driver.

Besides, looking at all these race / server options, it's going to end up prutty annoying to find a quick race when you gotta look at a whole page of options to decide whether you like the format. Let's have the essentials only to edit, and leave the complicated stuff to either static presets or out altogether.

[Greboth]

i will explain my post - it was mentioned earlier in the thread drifting came about because of 100000000000 hp or whatever it was (look above somewhere) all my point was thats not where drifting came from - it came from the touge. Thank you not an illusion. Drifting is by far slower on a race track but for gettin down a mountain with hairpins etc it easily quicker, otherwise why do rally driver drift? (Even on tarmac stages)

My other point was that although drifting takes power to do so, as breaking traction with 2 8 inch wide tyres needs about 400bhp, it is not just the power the drivers do have skill.

Last point was that i like engine tuning i enjoy seeing tuned car (not chavy corsa's etc, more mazda Rx-7's, nissan S15's Nissan skylines) so i am one of those 'tuner types' and it would add another dimension to racing, but lfs doesnt need it,

Hope that made sense to those who couldnt follow the first thread by me,was it was reli (for P5YcHoM4N that was really pmsl) that confusing was it?:scratchch

If u didnt follow that one, i think you need some help with reading lol

[FPVaaron]

Well I personaly think car mods are a great idea, infact I think if LFS was exactly like NSFU in every possible way it would be good, I'd love to drive the xfgti corning at 320km with over 1500 different combinations of body kit upgrades. I think LFS needs nitrosoxide in the cars to give that extra edge, I also beleive that if we get rid of all the race cars and have the totaly basic road cars that we turn into super cars that traval over 400km and suffer no damage after landing a 300foot jump it would be perfect. I also think we should have race meets and free roam around the city looking for hidden drift events. Also change the basic 1/4 mile drag strip to a 1.525mile windy road while you dodge traffic and don't need to steer because the car grips to the road at any speed. Another thing I think would be good is to have a dyno where no matter what the weight of your car is or the areodynamics as long as it had the same power it would drive EXACTLY the same as all the other ones with equal power.



If these suggestions were made complete I think LFS would be the best totaly unrealistic waste of time game for 11 year olds out there and would cause millions of people to waste their money on it.

[Sapient]

I am going to have to agree with hinirags here.

Although I treat with distain anyone who calls NFSU a racing simulator show me one single real life racing car that doesnt allow for ANY engine tuning. In fact show me one single race team anywhere that doesnt have an "engine guy".

And for all those complaints about engine tuning is too difficult and hard and i dont understand....how much about suspension geometry did you know before LFS?

In fact, noobs just ask for a set and get it, so its fair to assume there are still plenty of racers who still dont understand.

The greatest advantage in engine tuning (if brought into the game correctly) it is will actual create differences! Racer A goes for a torquey setup to get drive out of the corner on his particularly soft setup, racer B on the other hand sacrifices low down torque for up top power so he can blitz racer A down the straight, but once we arrive at a corner again, the advantage is back to racer A.

In reality this is how a car is tuned to a driver, a combination of suspension and engine management.

Having said all that, I tend to agree its not something we need in S2 Final, there is a heap more to do yet, and so far the racing is great anyway.

Maybe S3, or 4, or 5 and beyond?

[Hankstar]

I think it would add unnecessary complexity to LFS. Of course RL racing teams have engine guys, but this is a single player sim and I'd bet 9 out of 10 of us wouldn't know how to set up an engine and would just go looking for/asking for the best setups, much like what happens now with suspension setups. I'd say few people make their own setups from scratch right now and often just use other people's and modify them to suit themselves (me being one of them). Engine modifications would take extensive testing to evaluate their effectiveness and I think would take up more time than most LFS'ers want to spend in the garage, or just driving around alone. And having to match such things to all the tracks available I think very few people will want to spend so much time on the engine.

I'm not saying it's an awful idea but I think it will have very limited appeal in the LFS world. Except for hotlapping or a long prac session, LFS'ers (generally) want to go to a track, pick their setup, get going and have a clean, fun race. I think the natural variation in driver skill/style and the existing suspension/gearing options already makes for good close racing (which is the whole point) and I believe adding engine options would complicate the LFS experience unnecessarily.

[XCNuse]

agreed with hankstar; here are hte main points i picked up from his post:

race teams have their own people that work specifically on the engine, some specifically with suspension, etc.. LFS is only a single person game.. so thats just plain to much for one person to learn how to do to make a car setup 'correctly' yes it would be fun, i've spent hours on NFSU2 messing with my suspension and ECU and turbo and whatnot, its tons of fun.. but when competition racing.. its not much fun when you have no idea what is good and what isnt good

and shut up FPVaaron, just TRY NFSU2 and see what its like; to some serious extents the game is real..

[RMachucaA]

and shut up FPVaaron, just TRY NFSU2 and see what its like; to some serious extents the game is real..

can i have a "LOL" :P.

Anyways, as mentioned, engine tuning may be too much for most people to handle (myself included, im no big engine tuner geek, i'm more of a suspension guy).

Imagine yourself driving for a team, what they want from you is good input about the suspension, not about the engine. And you as a driver, you can change the suspension, not the engine, its logic. Engine stuff is left for other ppl, not me, not the driver, if you want to tinker with the engine, get gearhead garage or something.

[B2B@300]

I actually agree that LFS should focus on the RACING and not the tuning side of things and it's obvious most LFS's do to :scratchch thats why the community is in general so generous with sharing sets... the problem is if it is to be a Sim it needs to be realistic in as many details as possible (within the constraints of current technology of course)

The idea (engine tuning and car tweaking) has good and bad side effects though (the same as suspension tunning)
Without any type of tunning (suspension or engine) it would be pure driving skill (the ability of the driver to adapt to the situation to get the best performance out of the car) this is good for public online races, but has the downside of the driver must adapt his driving technique to get the most out of the car (which sometimes can be difficult especially with the variations in controller choice, etc.) Also the other downside is it is quite difficult to get car pairs that work well together on all tracks (i.e. XFG/XRG, XRT/FXO, etc.) so you end up with mainly one car classes again (although it might be easier if they took away all or most of the suspension settings :razz: ).
With engine tunning (which could be as simple as two or three engine choices like we have with diff's) it maybe easier for the developers to balance the car classes on all car/track combos :shrug: .

As has been mentioned, in RL most race drivers don't know how to tune engines or suspensions (although many do learn as much about it as possible) they have engineers, mechanics and pit crew to take care of these details... (which is why many good set builders in LFS share their sets willingly, they want to encourage good close racing)... but this is one side of racing that makes the sport very interesting in RL, the choices and decisions the Team make ultimately see them at victory lane or not, and this can be simulated in LFS quite well in league racing :scratchch
I don't think it would be unreasonable that when LFS is completed (S3 and beyond) that teams entering leagues would have a race engineer, team manager, etc... this is what real life racing is about it's a team sport not individual pursiut as alot seem to think...

MS Flight Sim springs to mind here, it attracts real life pilots because of it's realism, but also attracts others who like to fly but also have an interest in the other areas of aviation also (like traffic control) there is a whole segment of the community devoted to giving the pilots of the sim an ultra realistic traffic control system :scratchch so it's like a sim in a sim :D

So what I think would be the best of both worlds (which I know would be complex and very time consuming to implement, thats why I say S3 or beyond) would be, have maximum complexity in tunning and adjustment settings for everything to do with a car, but also have a virtual race engineer. In real life race drivers tell there race engineers how their car is responding and the race engineer makes adjustments accordingly based on his knowledge of how that particular driver drives. This could be done even via a third party application I guess, like the replay analysers. That way people could choose to tweak their own sets or have the "virtual race engineer" do it for them, I'm sure the community still would be as generous as it currently is, so it wouldn't mean starting from a stock set, you could still download someone elses set as a starting point then have the VRE tweak the set for a particular track driver style :D alternatively a team could recriut a race engineer... I could even envisage that interested people (like traffic controllers in MS FlightSim) could setup services where by they offered Race Tunning of cars for individual drivers :smileypul (sim within a sim)

:razz: I know I'm a dreamer :tilt: but you never know it could happen

[ellis_dee]

seems to me that a minority of racers wants tuning, and the majority doesn't want to be bothered about engine tuning or aftermarket parts. Right now, it IS possible to tweak the cars (mechanik or LSF tweak in near future) for offline. Online shouldn't be allowed, because most people would be put off to know about the best tuning, they just want to race on equal conditions and improve their skills.

So, seems to me, the situation we have is the best solution we could get....

[Greboth]

Reading this whole thread as not checked the forum recently - it seems that the (possible minority) who want engine tuning and even the ones who dont agree that it would be to difficult and would put of noobs as even more to learn. Also seems to be said that maybe slightly more options in future version eg S3, S4 . . . . . .
My view is wats above - would b nice to have enigine tuning but then i doubt it would b good for lfs to have as its good already and gives close races.

[FPVaaron]

I agree that very slight mods would be a good idea but it's better off having no options then a little. If you have a little people want more if you get more you suddenly have alot. then you can't remember if you clicked NFSU or LFS.

[e15exa]

Very true. But why not be the only game to capture what no-one else can Eg; a little amount of mods.

Engine Tab
Rich-Lean Rich= safer and slower
Fuel Injectors 7ms - 1ms Lean= Faster but raises engine temp and causes detination

Boost 5psi - 22

Etc

[Hankstar]

Maybe you know that your intellengence Level is not quite high enough to maintain your driving level and cope with tuning aswell, Or is it that you have no Machanical Aptitude at all and feel that your hopes Lie on driving.



If you're going to be insulting and have a go at people for having low "intellengence" or no "machanical" aptitude, try proofreading your posts.

Truth is, most people who aren't in favour of this idea have been quite polite while voicing their objections and haven't implied a lack of intelligence on the part of anyone who didn't agree with them.

Also, the majority opinion around here seems to be that adding engine tuning options would add unnecessary complexity to LFS (the menus are a maze already) and more work for little gain on the part of the programmers. Most people seem to think it's not such a bad idea in theory, but also think it wouldn't add enough to LFS to justify it's inclusion. At this alpha stage of LFS's development, adding tuning options seems like far too technical an improvement to be worth including as the driving physics themselves (the core components of the game) are still incomplete.

I think most people here are race fans who want to race with as little fuss as possible. A lot of us don't even adjust setups a great deal once we dowload them either, as long as we can drive with them consistently.

To be fair on everyone, not just the noobs but most of us who are in the middle ground between "I can't drive the UF1000 around the oval using manual transmission" and "I need to shave 0.001 sec from my AS Historic time to beat the WR in the FO8", I don't think everything that's involved in RL racing needs to be included in LFS.

[tristancliffe]

If you're going to be insulting and have a go at people for having low "intellengence" or no "machanical" aptitude, try proofreading your posts.

Truth is, most people who aren't in favour of this idea have been quite polite while voicing their objections and haven't implied a lack of intelligence on the part of anyone who didn't agree with them.

Also, the majority opinion around here seems to be that adding engine tuning options would add unnecessary complexity to LFS (the menus are a maze already) and more work for little gain on the part of the programmers. Most people seem to think it's not such a bad idea in theory, but also think it wouldn't add enough to LFS to justify it's inclusion. At this alpha stage of LFS's development, adding tuning options seems like far too technical an improvement to be worth including as the driving physics themselves (the core components of the game) are still incomplete.

I think most people here are race fans who want to race with as little fuss as possible. A lot of us don't even adjust setups a great deal once we dowload them either, as long as we can drive with them consistently.

To be fair on everyone, not just the noobs but most of us who are in the middle ground between "I can't drive the UF1000 around the oval using manual transmission" and "I need to shave 0.001 sec from my AS Historic time to beat the WR in the FO8", I don't think everything that's involved in RL racing needs to be included in LFS.

Excellent post Hankstar! Couldn't agree more.

[prot88]

Hi,
I Have tried to read all this topic (but I am a little poor in English :schwitz:) I don't think I have understood everything....

I am with those want the possiblity of engine tweaking because I play LFS quasi only for simulate my real car.

I do some trackdays with my car and, for training, I managed to build a nearest car that suits my Sierra Cosworth 4x4 in FLS: RB4 whith same gears, one central visco-coupling, "civilian" tyres, very smooth shock absorbers.. etc

With force feedback wheel and clutch I was really amazed by realism of car driving : really really near my car.

But some paramaters are still wrong: Weight, engine power (a little more :D ), red line rpm, certainly torque... and... look !

My wish is:
Possibility to set all this parameters like my real car and to make races with other "real car".

But how can we prevent for some players to have a 500 hp car instead of a simple VW bettle 60 HP in real life ???? It's all the problem...

Ho ! I have forgotten:
Real noise of the engine, gravel or sand noise when we are out of track, some fire throwing out of exaust after 3 laps ;-)
And I want all this options for tomorrow please !

Yves

[KeiichiRX7]

OK, i know ive only read the first page fo this thread but i see something going on.

Everyone is jumping to the conclusion that "Tweaking and Tuning" is teh same as "modding"

Tuning is adjusting for optimization. In the case of an engine you might adjust the timing to give you a lwoer peak horsepower, but wider powerband for slower courses, where torque is an issue, but you dont want to sacrifice all your top end either. this is just one example.

If youre allowed to adjust the suspension and gears to optimize for a track why not your timing and fuel mix (via a simple gui, no need to get complicated with actual radians or degrees on this)

Modding is grabbing a bolt on kit at your local autozone and bolting it on.

[Gunn]

OK, i know ive only read the first page fo this thread but i see something going on.It might be a good idea to read it all then.

[KeiichiRX7]

After a full read i dont think i missed much.

to sum up what's here, youve got your guys that want to be able to tweak and optimize, and youve got your spec racers. both are ok groups to be in, but it rather be able to adjust. I happen to fall in the former grouping.

the same could be argued about suspensions, which are actually much more complex settings wise. and you guys would be quite miffed if you didnt have them

[Woz]

After a full read i dont think i missed much.

to sum up what's here, youve got your guys that want to be able to tweak and optimize, and youve got your spec racers. both are ok groups to be in, but it rather be able to adjust. I happen to fall in the former grouping.

the same could be argued about suspensions, which are actually much more complex settings wise. and you guys would be quite miffed if you didnt have them

I would love a server setting to lock settings, once the default setups are improved a little.

[Gimpster]

Wow this is getting a bit out of hand. In orginized racing it's not about who has the better car, it about putting drivers in very similar vehicles with a defigned performance range and letting them prove who is the better driver, not who has the better car. LFS is a Racing Simulator, as such it is designed to simulate the compitition between driver's skill.

I understand the desire to tweak and tune your cars. Most people in to drag and street racing are as the car is am important factor. For those that participate in more officialy sactioned and orginized racing the cars have to conform to the rules outlined by the governing body. Think of the limits in what we can do with the cars in LFS as those rules.

Until servers can classify and limit vehicles based on pervormance envelops, allowing people to alter the performance of the cars in LFS will only lead to non compettitive races between dis-similar vehicles. I am not saying it should never be in, just that the tools and constraints to make them viable and keep then under control need to be implimented first.

I have said my peace.

[Gunn]

I happen to fall in the former grouping.
Then, as far as I can tell, you fall in the grouping that doesn't see how engine tuning may spoil fair and even racing online. The ability to race fairly online is something most sim fans respect. An uneven playing field won't help to maintain that situation. The more tuning options you introduce, the further apart racers become in their understanding of setting up a car. To me, racing is the first goal of this sim. Fiddling around with engine specs is not needed at all and will only cause confusion for many players.
It is a bit different from the car setup options we have now, they are all fundamental and in a way are important to understand. Apart from a rich/lean mixture adjustment I can't see what value advanced engine tuning would bring to LFS. I think it would ruin the racing while producing a new "grouping" of FnF tuners who have little or no interest in racing at all.

[Klutch]

So far only thing that I might be accepting is that the cars would have some changeable part that don't change any of the car's specs. Like wings with different kinds of shapes and rims (changeable inside he game) for ecample. But I wouldn't want any tuning stuff in LFS - most of those tuning cars look just overdone and childish to me :)

Yep, because bodykits add 50hp

And the possibility of changing spoilers or adding spoilers for better looks and traction.

:pillepall

I think it would ruin the racing while producing a new "grouping" of FnF tuners who have little or no interest in racing at all.

FnF was all show, no go.
I love the idea of fine tuning your engine, but as you said. The idiots that have no idea cry about it.

[KeiichiRX7]

I would love a server setting to lock settings, once the default setups are improved a little.

Simple solution. (Simple enough that i thought it went without saying.)

Let the "spec" racers run thier races. Offer flags to lock out changes on different tabs.

there are other adjustments you can make that make a difference
Timing for one. in this case the adjustment would be simplified (you can only adjust within the range that wont damage the engine) within this range it's possible to adjust your powerband. at one end you have a nice street car with a wide, but not too powerful powercurve that is very very forgiving vs the other end which makes a lot of power over a very narrow band and doesnt forgive at all (this example is a very extreme, you MIGHT gain 10 hp on most engines)

this is for the guys who want to go big. touring cars and GT cars (it might even allow those GTR cars to all run evenly by adjusting powerband to the course)

and i dont have anything agains Spec racers. Spec Miata class in the SCCA is one of the most competitve classes in the world. But on the other side of the coin, the Speed GT class isnt easy either.

[Woz]

Simple solution. (Simple enough that i thought it went without saying.)

Let the "spec" racers run thier races. Offer flags to lock out changes on different tabs.

there are other adjustments you can make that make a difference
Timing for one. in this case the adjustment would be simplified (you can only adjust within the range that wont damage the engine) within this range it's possible to adjust your powerband. at one end you have a nice street car with a wide, but not too powerful powercurve that is very very forgiving vs the other end which makes a lot of power over a very narrow band and doesnt forgive at all (this example is a very extreme, you MIGHT gain 10 hp on most engines)

this is for the guys who want to go big. touring cars and GT cars (it might even allow those GTR cars to all run evenly by adjusting powerband to the course)

and i dont have anything agains Spec racers. Spec Miata class in the SCCA is one of the most competitve classes in the world. But on the other side of the coin, the Speed GT class isnt easy either.

I meant everyone has to use the same LFS default setup (Apart from steering lock and brake pressure)

[tristancliffe]

I love the idea of fine tuning your engine, but as you said. The idiots that have no idea cry about it.

Actually, it's generally the idiots that know nothing about it that want it. The idiots that do know something about it realise that it's not as simple as adjusting the ignition timing to improve low down torque, and know that it won't add anything to LFS.

[Fonnybone]

Not only has this been discussed many times, this isn't the greatest
newest idea of the century sorry, but it always come down to very
simple facts, tuning defeats the racing aspect of a game like LFS, it
always gets out of hands (yes, many proofs of that) and generally,
the kind of people who want to have a tuned car in a 'stock' server are
mostly disruptive in their behavior. To get frustrated and insult people
BECAUSE they don't think the same way even though they have many
reasons and facts to support their arguments, is simply childish not to
mention it shows a lack of proper arguments and a total disregard for
reality.

Once again, you guys CAN tweak now with apps like MecaniK and
LFSTweak. I don't see any problem there. Is this about showing off how
you can put a bigger number in an app and beat someone who won't ?!
Here's another fact, people complain about unequal performance between
STOCK cars in LFS ! Now add tuning...:pillepall How can someone choose to
ignore simple facts like these ?

As many have said, no one here is against tuning per say and most would
surely tune their own car given the money. This is not the point here.
Let's take our hands off our eyes and ears and try to understand the
reason why LFS isn't NFS.

/rant mode OFF

[Turbocharge]

ill just sit there and watch people spin out attempt after attempt on LFS with their so called modded cars with 40 psi turbos squealing away and sparks flying from blown tires off of the rims....and run consistent lap times while it takes them 1 hour drifting all over the track until they reach their first lap of the track they try to go fast on...

[DJMOZ]

Lmao

[EeekiE]

If there was highly detailed engine damage simulated, then the ability to adjust JUST spark and fuel maps on a STANDARD engine would be cool.
No "upgrades" or different engine specs, just literally the ability to set the engine up to make best use of the track, number of laps and fuel economy.
But for this to be done, things like knock/overheat/exhaust temp/addition fuel consumption/saving would need to be simulated so it's not an easy thing at all.

Saying it shouldn't be added because it would a disadvantage for people who don't care for engines isn't an argument. I don't care much for suspension tuning at the moment. Race_S all the way.
And if it was the other way around, and this was a thread requesting that adjustments to suspension be added, you'd have people saying the exact same thing; saying it would unbalance things too much.

So I'm for it so long as it's only timing and fuel you can adjust; which would have the same effect of damaging your engine as a one-off hotlap style suspension setup has on damaging your tyres in a real race. It would be cool for some engines to give, or lose power later on in the race through pushing them too hard.

[senn]

most of the "road" cars are almost unrealistically quick as is anyway. I seem to remember one of those 0-100kmh script thingos saying that the XR GT Turbo hits 0-100 in high 3 second low 4 second mark. (on the road super tyres) Thats damn fast for any road car.

That said tho, i'm still in favour of being able to add aero parts (that actually have a function, not just show kits) and some engine tuning/parts (supercharging, intercoolers, fuel system mods, breathing system mods, forged internals, higher flowing heads, balanced internals, cams, adj cam timing. Also the ability to add rollcages (even tho chassis flex is NYI (as far as i know) strut braces, weight reduction kits and so forth.

I think it would also be interesting to see an engine dyno so you can see what sort of changes cam timing/ignition timing and so forth has on where the torque and power comes in.

But thats my ultimate dream of what LFS would be like, and i doubt it will happen :) As long as it stays as realistic as possible it's all good

Yes i know i should piss off and buy forza/forza 2/Gran Turismo something (yes i have these, but none of them is as realistic as LFS is)

[zipper (cze)]

The only what I want to say... Well, I know, it has been said million times, but... There's no suspension, gearbox, etc. set which could be called "the best". What's good for one driver doesn't need to be good for another. Each driver has a slightly different driving style. In contrast, the engine tuning AFAIK has for each track some set, which can be called "the best". And than, everyone will use it. So nobody gets new feature, just some kind of fun with tuning for a while. Then everybody anyway just use the best set...

[boosterfire]

Lmao

You actually went all the way in the search list to a topic that was exactly 1 year old, and you posted "Lmao"? Hmm, I bet not, having so much time to waste, I'd be crying for a life when posting such thing. :shrug:

[seinfeld]

im all for, engine tweaking, meaning fuel, ignition timing, or modes if u will while racing, to save fuel, gain aditional power ect, I am totally against, ricing it up, meaning no turbine upgrades, new cams, pistons ect, the game is good cause the base is the same for everyone, start throning on turbos, and super dooper blow off valves is taking the level playing feildaway

[lalathegreat]

As some may know I am more on the side of "tunning". its seems quite a few people have misconceptions of what "tunning" would look like
in lfs. I get the feeling that people imagine it would look something like NFS's when it should be noted that NFs' "tunning" is just as realistc as its suspension, tyre, etc simulation.

Your not going to have 1200HP XRT on 40psi going around a circuit track for any amount of time. in real there barriers to how much power you can make One example. Type of Fuel. Eg its impossible to have the above XRT running on pump gas but most likely possible on nitro methane.

the idea that you can tune now with tweak is weak because the changes you make are not realistic.

Alot of people say it won't add anything again i disagree. It should be noted that simulation is trying to emulate reality. and in reality there isn't a racing league in existence that does not have regulations. so to say that everyone is going to use the most powerful setup is again weak. i think it goes with out saying is any Engine modification implemented needs a way to be regulated online by server admin and such.

Deeper Game play experience
one advantage of Engine tunning is not necessarily strategy in racing but more and different classes of racing. you could have naturally aspirated XRT and it could be a different experience to what is currently implemented.

Could balance game play.
Next thing nay sayers are probably saying is well that kills pickup races. no one is going to want to agree on regulations. and that sorta stuff happens alot in real life. answer to that would be Standards. Example STCC league could have their own standard. Advantage of that is STCC founders could balance out the current imbalance between the cars used.
%and just because i know someone is thinking its gonna be hard to keep track different regulations. a template system could be implemented so that once loaded its impossible to adjust beyond or below regulation.

people also seem to think there is a best engine setup, and preference have nothing to do with it. doesn't seem crazy to me to see someone creating a car with a excellent top end. one could be fast on the straight away and slower else where. with some driving skill one might be able fend off anyone any attacks in slower area. that seems like a strategy to me, i would not mind trying giving a situation. (that was off the top of my head)

Adding a full blown engine simulation it would be easy to implement a engine damage, better sounds, Real time back fire and exhaust fumes, and most things associated with the engine.

Simulation and complexity go hand in hand in my mind.

Only down side is LFS community size can't support any of this. though i do make the argument that it would bring in alot of people From GT, Forza, Drag racing fans.

[wark]

people also seem to think there is a best engine setup, and preference have nothing to do with it. doesn't seem crazy to me to see someone creating a car with a excellent top end. one could be fast on the straight away and slower else where. with some driving skill one might be able fend off anyone any attacks in slower area. that seems like a strategy to me, i would not mind trying giving a situation. (that was off the top of my head)

Yeah, but cars have more than one gear (they're adjustable, too).

Just pretend the cars are already tuned, and we're using the devs' standard--cause they are, and we are.

AndthisthreadisoverayearoldGOSH!

[Hankstar]

Nice bump DJMOZ. 12 months later and all you've got is "lmao"? Stellar argument. ROFL.

lala, much as you present your argument well (you've obviously thought about it a lot) I think your last paragraph is pretty close to the truth - although I'd say it's more a matter of the size of the LFS development team and what those two can accomplish in a given time rather than the size of the community. They'd need considerably more people to simulate an entire engine and all its components and all their interactions, let alone to then be able to add parts to it. I think the whole tuning concept isn't bad in theory, but in practise would be fraught with danger with regard to realism and how people view the accuracy of what was included. It's complex enough now, when a difference of opinion about something relatively simple like, for example, tyre deformation can go on for pages and pages. Imagine the argument when turbos, superchargers, exhaust modifications, dump valves, timing changes et al are added, or at least opened up for serious discussion. The mere discussion over whether to include tuning at all always ends up going for ages - imagine the epic threads that would arise over what to include, how to include it, what cars to leave alone and what cars to open up for modding. Again, it's not a bad idea, just one I think not many people want that badly and it's also something that would take quite a lot of time and effort (start playing broken record about small dev-team size here).

As for bringing in Gran Turismo and Forza fans, they'll be on a pretty steep learning curve coming from arcade games to LFS. You wouldn't want to make it too hard on them by implementing realistic tuning (i.e. a more complex system than "buy it, apply it, go win next prize car and complete 2 more percent of the game") :)

Finally, just so you know, it's "tuning" with one "n" :up: It's pronounced "chooning", but only in Australia :D

[wark]

I think you hit the nail on the head with that one, Hankstar.

But although the date of DJMOZ's post is earliest, the post number isn't (wtf?) so, uh... well, I hate to point fingers, but it looks like Turbocharge bumped it and DJMOZ is laughing at him.

[Hankstar]

wark, I think your insta-web is broked :tilt:

[wark]

wark, I think your insta-web is broked :tilt:

GOOD GOD, I didn't see the year. :doh:

Turbocharge 9th April 2006, 03:22 Post #81
DJMOZ 8th April 2007, 20:00 Post #82

The least he could have done was wait 8 more hours!

P.S. wtf BAN! castration!! ... double castration!

[lalathegreat]

i think i how difficult and how long implementing it would take would be dependent on how deep of a simulation u go. i started writing one couple months back but quit when i reinstalled windows and forgot to back it up.:schwitz:


As for bringing in Gran Turismo and Forza fans, they'll be on a pretty steep learning curve coming from arcade games to LFS. You wouldn't want to make it too hard on them by implementing realistic tuning (i.e. a more complex system than "buy it, apply it, go win next prize car and complete 2 more percent of the game") :) not everyone on GT or forza is car retarded. i always felt when creating a sim should cater to reality & practicality above all.

[yeager]

what good is a 10000000 HP engine if you cant setup the car to deliver proper grip to use it? hence drifting became an excuse for that :P.

Oh man, I gotta pick you up on that.

I've competed in real drift championships for a few years and I can tell you now that drifters know a heck of a lot about suspension setup, infact more so than engine tuning. Ask any mature/professional drifter and he'll know by heart the geometery of his car and what tyre pressure's he'll use for different track conditions.

With respects to the power reference, yes a lot of drift cars have large power outputs. But when you are trying to unstick a set of 285 tyres at 120mph in an instant, it helps to have some power on tap. A drift engine actually isn't just about power, it's about delivery. A big turbo engine which shoves 800hp in a very short powerband, with huge lag and poor balance is not the goal. Most drift engine's i've seen built have been a good balance of power, response and reliability.

I should also add my comments on topic ;)

I think something which balances fuel and engine is a good idea. I like the idea of a boost button which can be used, this made for some amazing races in F1 with people trying to figure out fuel versus use of boost. Or even having a selection of two engines, one with better low down torque and one with better top end hp, this could be implemented in a way which would allow a car like the FBM to be balanced for different types of circuit based on engine selection.

[Dajmin]

*** C&P ALERT *** C&P ALERT *** C&P ALERT ***

Modifying the cars is pointless. Eventually, people would work out the ideal setup for each track and car and everyone would use it. Look at the number of people who use Inferno setups if you need proof that it would happen.
Therefor you end up with a field of identical cars, and guess what? That's exactly what we already have.

So how about you just drive the cars you have and I dunno, bang a metal trash can lid with your face to simulate the noise of a pointless "masseev zorst!!1111"

*** C&P END *** C&P END *** C&P END ***

Man I love having that quote available. Means I don't need to type it every time :)

[BuDMaN]

The thing for me I would really like to see in future versions is the ability to pick different style "rims" or "wheels". I see a lot of people bad mouthing the "tuner" aspect, as this is a very realistic racing simulator. I agree that the races should be kept even, but I don't see why you can't make a wheel the exact same dimensions on the outside, but just a different style. I'm all for keeping it equal, but I like to be able to change the look of my car as much as possible. I think personalization is a great feature in games that should be incorporated. What about things like window-tint, or a few different light styles, I don't see how this could be a problem for the purist driver, if you don't like it then you don't utilize it. Also, I would like to see an option returned for changing the speedometer to digital. I know there are mods available for some of these ideas, but I would feel more comfortable using them if they were stock in the game.

Preparing to be insulted,
Budman

[Dajmin]

Semi-epic bump :)

I actually agree with that aspect. As long as the wheel style doesn't have any effect on handling or performance I'd like to see the choice as well. So many people have made fantastic designs for them and it'd be nice to see some of them incorporated.

[tristancliffe]

I wouldn't use them. But I don't want the sim diluted for the tastes of, err, people like you, and nor do I want Scawen's precious time taken up coding things for said, err, people like you. There are plenty of games that cater for people like you, and LFS does not need to be one of them.

[Dajmin]

Just because you wouldn't doesn't mean other people wouldn't either :)

Okay, window tinting might be pointless, but I still hold true to the custom wheels thing. It's not like every car in every race shares the same wheel design. And some shapes work better with paint jobs than others - this would be a way of finding one that matches.

Some people's Bespoke creations are fantastic. Maybe there could be a competition to get the best designs added to LFS. Minimise programming time and shut people up about custom content for five minutes :)

[Bob Smith]

I haven't checked, at this might not be true anymore anyway, but I suspect that LFS at least used to involve the spoke design in the calculation of the moment of inertia for a wheel. So custom designs would affect the physics, and thus not be multiplayer compatible.

[Bandit77]

So custom designs would affect the physics, and thus not be multiplayer compatible.

Give me a break. So would different tyre brands (and you can even choose these). And different decals (skins) would have an effect on aerodynamics... and the weight of the paint is different, too.

Guys, the no-no-arguments more and more appear to be heavily sought after.

Would you really go and say that LFS is unrealistic just because different looking wheels (same dimensions and same weight) drive the same? Come on... this is getting ridiculous.

[Jakg]

Errrr, what?

ATM LFS uses the weight of the wheels in the overall calculations of the weight etc - this means you can't just set "changeable wheels" to "multiplayer compatible", it does need (a fairly small amount of) work to do.

[Bob Smith]

As Jack says, the spoke designs are physically modelled. The paint job and tyre brands are just textures.

[Dajmin]

So you're telling me that BeSpoking a wheel that has more spokes and thicker rims actually has an effect on the car? Because the few times I used it I never noticed any change. I guess they're so small it probably doesn't make much difference.
Seems utterly pointless if there's only one kind of wheel for each car anyway.

And even if it did, there's no need for it. Assign a standard value (or extract the details from the default wheels) and make that the design-independent wheel physics values.

[Bandit77]

And even if it did, there's no need for it. Assign a standard value (or extract the details from the default wheels) and make that the design-independent wheel physics values.

That's EXACTLY what I meant.

[ColeusRattus]

it would still be time invested in an unneeded feature.

[Gunn]

Personally, I think it (optional choice of wheels) is an easy to design feature that wouldn't be hard to implement and many would find adds value to their LFS experience. I don't see the big deal really, it's just a bit of variety.


2c

[S14 DRIFT]

Personally, I think it (optional choice of wheels) is an easy to design feature that wouldn't be hard to implement and many would find adds value to their LFS experience. I don't see the big deal really, it's just a bit of variety.


2c
Completely agree. :nod:

Just set a wheel to a set weight and something for each car (as is probbably now) and just let people texture them.

[MAD3.0LT]

lol i been playing LFS for years now and the game has started to become boring a limited for me but thats NO excuse to have this kind of stuff to be brought into such a great RACING SIM. Personaly i loved street legal 1/2 for them exact options but the driving and racing was appaling.

Allso i know quiet a few race cars that have differnt ecu maps and boost curves for qly/wet/race and it works well for them but thats still no reason to have such options in lfs.

I would love a game where i could map the injector dutie and fully program a cars ecu and boost curves and do everything that you can in real life but im affraid a game with that much tuning content would lack in other aera's IE the fun side of driving.

rant over

[Breizh]

I honestly doubt Scavier could deny that a relatively small choice of well made wheels for each car wouldn't detract from LFS' appeal.

[S14 DRIFT]

Hmm, vare naic!

[tristancliffe]

I honestly doubt Scavier could deny that a relatively small choice of well made wheels for each car would detract from LFS' appeal.

Well, that rules out your wheels :p

[Breizh]

I think they're fab, for a 5min job :shy:

[brandons48]

Why not just have an option on servers to allow these modifications? This way servers could keep racing fair, and people who want to mod their cars for fun can do it with like minded people... just an idea :shrug::spin:

[wheel4hummer]

I think they're fab, for a 5min job :shy:

But they cut into the calipers! lol The bottom right picture looks decent. But if the devs were to implement this then there would be people with wheels that are really ugly (even uglier then yours :P).

[Breizh]

The contest scheme is probably guaranteed to give the devs at least 4-5 very good and different shapes per car. So not everyone would have to have ugly rims :tilt:
The only outstanding problem would be the different physics. They could just cancel that part of the physics (since wheels don't deform) by giving all wheel shapes the same physics that our present wheels have; there wouldn't even be any incompatibility with that part of the update.

I think it's worth doing. Those who don't care either way couldn't complain that it saps dev time, because all the devs would do is cull the submissions that don't meet the minimum criteria (e.g. shape clips with calipers, or too unrealistic design), and then let the votes decide.

[BMWM3GTR]

i see some good points on both sides, but i do think it would be cool if you could have 2 leagues kind of like demo, not demo, modded, un modded, or even 200 hp-250 or something like that, it could be done and it would be fun, but maybe you could have it so the engine tweaks cannot be sent to other people or some stuff like that

[thalisvilela]

I think the keywords to the engine tunning/tweaking question are: DAMAGE, RELYABILITY and CONSISTENCE. A agressive tuned engine will not last long and will be harder to drive. Maybe the damage system will have to act in long term, the engine could crash after... don't know... 4 races? 2 races? that will depend on the engine tunning and most important, the way the driver uses the engine. If you overrev the engine, you may improve your lap time, but you are going to raise your engine temperature, and reduce the life and maybe the performance of the engine components... I think even if no engine tunning is implemented, the engine damage system have to be improved, for instance, you can put in neutral or hold the clutch, drop the hammer on the gas pedal, stay like this for the all day, and nothing but running out of fuel will happen, even the engine temperature won't change. I think a realistic engine is a must-have in LFS, the best car simulator ever!

[Dajmin]

No. All of the cars in LFS are race tuned, that's why they're on a race track and not public roads. Some of them are race-tuned road cars, but they'll still already have "aggressively tuned" engines because - strangely enough - the designers would want them to win.

I do think that abusive driving should result in engine failures though. I did want random mechanical failures a while back, but realised that it'd be really frustrating to have this happen for no reason. And we have disconnects to simulate that anyway :) But part wear and breakage from driving style? Absolutely.

[thalisvilela]

A part wear/performance drop/failure, should be added. It will only contribute to LFS realism and enjoyment, we all know that if in real life, we can't keep pushing the engine to it's limit all the time, to preserve the integrity of the car components is a very important part of the racer strategy, we can try to earn that extra points in a race, but we know that we are going to risc the equipment, or we may be confortable with our position in a race, and start saving the equipment. It should be very well implemented, and adjusted, to prevent LFS to loosing or disapointing it's public...
I wonder we could have a beta patch soon, so we can start helping to develop and adjust a wear/performance drop/failure system.

[Crashgate3]

The majority of races are just short 10-minute sprint races though - unless there was some kind of career mode to keep track of the wear on the parts (which is a totally different argument) you'd have to drive like a madman to damage parts in that time without resorting to unfair random failures.

[flysboy311]

that would be nice to do.

[speed1230]

Why not make it possible to tweak the engine???


Oh boy...

You haven't understood the meaning about the word "simulation" have you? I think you're much better off playing NFS or Project Torque

And the possibility of changing spoilers or adding spoilers for better looks

:wtf2:

[GenesisX]

This actually amazes me. Engine tweaking and Damage is fine. But everyone should be able to start on the same level. Things that increase performance directly should not be implemented, but things that help suit you style may be.

What I am thinking is like increasing the redline to better use the power curves, etc. In actuality, you can already lower the power of your engine, (car in general) in current versions of LFS by cutting down on the air intake (in %) in the 'general' section of the car after the car selection menu.

Engine damage, and stuff like that actually interest me. It sounds like a wonderful idea. It makes us better drivers in general. I remember how I over revved my XRG in I think T1, is it called, to second gear like 40 km/h over the 7k rev limit, where there after, I had no power at all. - Shut Up - It has lots of power, right =D.

In fact, what I've been thinking of (which maybe a good idea, I know some S2erz may think it is a dumbass idea, cause they have S2 already) , is to set up a program in a variety of servers for demo-ers, where everytime you pit and get new tyres, refuel, you pay maybe 5 cents, which goes towards an S2 license, for demo people of course. This may help many of us towards and S2 License slowly, and it will help us learn better driving styles, to preserve tyres, not to be too agressive on our turns thus not crashing, not to over rev our engines all in all, driving our cars like how we would in real life. And what would be good, as many people have said, is where we would need to keep our cars in their current shape and damage. Again, this would serve difficult as the games are run on independent servers.

[tristancliffe]

1. Altering redlines - it's the same for everyone, and hence is fair for everyone. No need to change it to suit a style.

2. Engine Damage - would be nice, as long as it's not too random, or not too easy (or difficult) to achieve damage.

3. Every time you make a pistop, but five cents in a tin by your monitor. Hey presto, you've made this program yourself!!! Asking Paypal to send five cents to your licence every time you pit isn't going to endear yourself to Paypal or LFS, but will be loved by people interested in hacking your account details out of it.

[GenesisX]

Good Idea. I should do that =D

[CharlieSpeed]

I'm sure this has been said a million times, but still. Every time I play LFS it bothers me that XR-GT the is very underpowered. It has about 140 horses and it could use some more for some real drifting.
300+ would be fun I guess :thumb:.

[bunder9999]

I'm sure this has been said a million times, but still. Every time I play LFS it bothers me that XR-GT the is very underpowered. It has about 140 horses and it could use some more for some real drifting.
300+ would be fun I guess :thumb:.

so buy the game and drive the XRT. :shrug:

[mhartma5]

set up a program in a variety of servers for demo-ers, where everytime you pit and get new tyres, refuel, you pay maybe 5 cents, which goes towards an S2 license, for demo people of course.

How about you set a jar next to your computer and every time you pit or get new tyres, refuel, you have to put 5 cents in!!!

Edit: no offense against your post, just, i think it would be better to keep the server full

[CharlieSpeed]

so buy the game and drive the XRT. :shrug:

The XRT doesnt quite do it for me to be honest, don't know why really. I just love the normal GT but it needs more power, thats all.

[Shadowww]

so buy the game and drive the XRT. :shrug:FZ5. Laggy turbo's suck.

[Deutschland2007]

FZ5. Laggy turbo's suck.

FZ5 could well be an american car. Lots of power but no ability to go round turns at all.:x

[Shadowww]

FZ5 could well be an american car. Lots of power but no ability to go round turns at all.:xHe was talking about drifting. Drifting with american pussycars like Dodge Viper, which has over 9000 (unneeded) bhp engine could be done pretty easily.

[Vendetta]

The XRT doesnt quite do it for me to be honest, don't know why really. I just love the normal GT but it needs more power, thats all.

Don't know what you are talking about. The XRT is by far perfect for drifting every track in the game, especially the S1 tracks.

[Dajmin]

I love the FZ5 too. It needs to be driven either really carefully (if you're a scared little girl) or like you know it's trying to kill you and you don't care (for real men) :)

[S1ck0]

I know this could sound strange but i know there are ppl that want to do this so why not use the physics engine of LFS and use that to make another game? :P Just my toughts :D

[sysoosi]

Because you don't just take a proprietary game engine and make another game on top of it.

[Ni-san]

Live for Speed Underground or something would sound nice. The LFS physics engine combined with NFS Underground 1/2, and can be bought aside for those who have S2. However somebody has to make the game, and the devs already has a lot on their hands right now. And it has to be compatible with future versions of the physics engine.

[KeiichiRX7]

I would support something like this as a server-side tool for leagues, but not as a per-car adjustable item. And i justify this statement with the idea of changing Engine specs for leagues, and offering multiple engine specs as is done in MOE and was done in CTRA with engine air restriction. Multiclass racing without relying on engine air restriction would be well recieved if my experience and memory serves me. Not relying on intake restriction would allow league or server administrators to adjust power of a class up or down (within reason).

How this would be integrated with current setups i'm not sure, possibly by after selecting your car. This also skirts the issue that we would always end up with everyone running the same specs per-course. And in addition unless decided otherwise by the devs, only the default spec would be tracked on LFSW

Just some idle thoughts.