TEST Patch V2 (compatible with V)

[Scawen]

Hello Racers! Here is a new fully compatible Test Patch, V2.

There are just a few changes since version V - all listed below in this post. Some of the changes (like the unlocking fixes) are very important to some people. Other changes are mainly small improvements that some people will like.

LFS S2 has now diverged into two versions, a compatible version and a non-compatible version. As we continue to develop the incompatible version, I may copy some compatible changes into the compatible version so they get well tested and you get a few updates - and any important issues get fixed.

This thread is for feedback about the test patch. We need to know if you find any problems. Please do not make feature requests on this thread. Thank you! :)

Changes in TEST PATCH V2 :

Higher resolution image in mirrors
Selected setup is displayed in F12 menu
Another small reduction in pit-out glitch
Setups can be sorted by name as well as date
CTRL+S saves a screen shot to the shots folder
Same distortion regardless of the volume setting
No need to type edit_eng before using sound editor
New PACK button in sound editor to load a sound pack
Set log file name /log=name.xxx or /log to stop logging
Master port is now selectable in cfg.txt (29339 or 8080)
Any res as wide as or wider than 3:1 considered 3 screen
Various translation updates and improvements
New language : Slovenian / Slovenski

FIX : Unlocking issue with AMD Athlon 64
FIX : Unlocking should now work on Cedega
FIX : Small renaming bug when saving replays
FIX : Invisible warning when wrong way reversing

INSTALLATION :

1) Move or save the patch into your main LFS folder
2) Double click the patch to extract it to that folder
3) When you see "Confirm File Replace" select "Yes to All"
3) Now you can start LFS in the normal way

DOWNLOAD :

TEST PATCH V2 :
www.liveforspeed.net/file_lfs.php?name=LFS_V2_TEST.exe

DEDICATED HOST V2 (for hosting only) :
www.liveforspeed.net/file_lfs.php?name=LFS_S2_DEDI_V2.zip

[Jakg]

Yay! Thanks scawen, looking forward to the hi-res mirrors!

[Highsider9]

Thanks Scawen. :thumb:
Here is a new fully compatible Test Patch, V2.There are just a few changes since version U
Typo?

[Scawen]

Thanks, fixed.

[AndroidXP]

Whee, the hires mirrors are awesome! :thumb:

[Blas89]

Coooooool Scawen! Thanks Gracias!:)

[joen]

:nana: yay!
Thanks Scawen :thumb:

[NotAnIllusion]

Thank you, looking forward to the mirror resolution update :nod:

[Jonas8431]

is working the automatic update?:scratchch

[AndroidXP]

No, it's not included in the automatic update (yet?). I don't think Scawen wants to roll out test patches.

[kamo2000]

It's bad that we need to unlock again..or is it only me?

[geeman1]

It's bad that we need to unlock again..or is it only me?I had to unlock too.

[Jakg]

just you, unlocked here

[Jonas8431]

It's bad that we need to unlock again..or is it only me?

me too!!

[AndroidXP]

No unlock needed here. Everything was fine :shrug:

[joen]

I didn't have to unlock either :really:

[traxxion]

I had to re-unlock too :)

Edit: WOW never thought hi-res mirrors would make such a difference... very nice!

[Zero7]

It's bad that we need to unlock again..or is it only me?

Thanks Scawen!!

Unlocked here too.

[Scawen]

Yes a few people will have to unlock again, because of the unlocking fixes.

[MoonForce]

since i have installed S2V2 i have extreme lags 1-3 sec when i shift (clutch + shifting), so i cant steer while this lag is there. also when i write text its very lame and has also 1-2 sec lag until it appears...

[kamo2000]

Thank you :)
Mirrors are looking very nice ..(they were before too ).

:thumb:

[MoonForce]

NO BUG, it was software causing this prob, no lfs bug...

[ronnymes]

Great patch :smileypul

Only i don't have a key to unlock it :doh:

[herki]

Great. I just moved and can't connect my laptop to the internet (which is running LFS). And guess what - a patch comes out. I hate you Scawen ;)

[Forbin]

Another small reduction in pit-out glitch

Would someone mind explaining this to me? What pit-out glitch is Scawen refering to? The one where your pit ends if you get bumped?

[BurnOut69]

I think he means a bit of lag stutter, though I never experienced any

[AndroidXP]

Looks even better in motion :)
Just for those unfortunate enough not being able to try out V2

[BuddhaBing]

Is there any way to specify the resolution (vertical and/or horizontal) or the field of view of the mirrors or are those parameters hard-coded?

[KMSpeed]

I had to unlock also :shrug:

People, hurry up... (no kidding)
Install the patch and unlock it before the end of February.
Why to spare your March unlock for just few hours?

[Citywidemicke]

Thanks for this one :)

[K.David]

How badly is performance affected by the higher resolution mirror? I don't have much FPS to spare :shy:

[AndroidXP]

No framerate loss at all for me.

[Markz]

Yay first demo user to try it!

EDIT: Nvm, I can't access the download link. Mirror please?

Oh and Andriod, your signature says "S3 Licensed." hm... lol jk

[mobiholik]

I had to unlock to :shrug:

[KMSpeed]

How badly is performance affected by the higher resolution mirror? I don't have much FPS to spare :shy:

I did a test right now.

Westhill-BF1. Me first and 10 AI behind me.
I saw NO difference at all with V and V2. 64 FPS at start/finish line on both occasions.

Tested on P4 3.2, 6800GT, 1GB ram
resolution: 1024x768x32bit, 16AF 8AA

[Shotglass]

love the mirrors ... some slider to set the resolution would be neat

[filur]

some slider to set the resolution would be neat

+1

[Davo]

+2, I want as much quality as possible. I like to read the MOVE NOOB! BLUE FLAG messages people have on their skins :P

[Zachary Zoomy]

How is the new patch? should I download?

[(SaM)]

How is the new patch? should I download?

So far we haven't encountered any problems, only improvements. So yes I recommend downloading this test patch.

[dawesdust_12]

Scawen, Quick question, now that we have a Test Patch installed, will we get put on a "Test Patch" auto update cycle compared to the normal test patch cycle, or do we still haffto DL them manually?

[XCNuse]

i didn't have to unlock

but i notice a serious bug
if its even possible to do it again

this is what i did exactly so hopefully it is reproducable:
joined server online (SO Classic), went offline, changed track to KY National, went back and changed to KY National with cloudy afternoon (the track also started off at SO Classic, not the just previously chosen KY Nat), no button to let me join, i hit go and it said "a race is currently (active? i can't remember the last word it said)"

[BuddhaBing]

For what it's worth, I haven't been able to replicate XCNuse's bug.

[STRAHD]

Anyone else not being able to connect to master server? I try to unlock but when I put in my detail and hit unlock nothing happens, I dont even get the "cannot connect to master server" error, it just does nothing at all only pause at the screen where you hit the unlock button.

[mikey_G]

Could be a software firewall issue? Because the integrity of the file (checksum) got changed ofcourse because of the patch.

[dawesdust_12]

Scawen, the new 3:1 looking, looks brilliant if I had a third monitor. I think I might do some ****ing about later with another PCI videocard and see how sexy it looks.

:D

[AtomAnt]

Scawen, the new 3:1 looking, looks brilliant if I had a third monitor. I think I might do some ****ing about later with another PCI videocard and see how sexy it looks.

:D

Pay no attention to the Robot to your left. If you want an answer use........I trust guys with 75 K and above.

[SR BaCkFiRe]

I don't know why, but my experience in multiplayer is much smoother than last time. The stuttering has disappeared and it is much faster overall. Great job Scavier :)

[shiny_red_cobra]

Hey cool mirrors!

Scawen I know you said not to request things here, but I just have to put this out there. When driving using the chase view, all the split times and warnings that appear on the screen block my view of the track and the car in front. Is there any way you can move them out of the way, maybe up towards the sky, so I can see the road in front?

[shim]

quick question..

with the /log=name.xxx command, is this useable within the dedi? might help some admins of why people are getting banned from servers and such if the owner is not about..

[Tweaker]

Scawen, Quick question, now that we have a Test Patch installed, will we get put on a "Test Patch" auto update cycle compared to the normal test patch cycle, or do we still haffto DL them manually?
AFAIK, the Test Patches are something you manually install, and the auto updater is for new releases that need to be installed in order to play online.

/me waits for the night when I try to play online and it says "Downloading Patch W" :D

Thx for the patch Scawen. Setup sorting helps a bunch, but I have soo many sets, it really needs sorting per track :x

[KMSpeed]

Hey cool mirrors!

Scawen I know you said not to request things here, but I just have to put this out there. When driving using the chase view, all the split times and warnings that appear on the screen block my view of the track and the car in front. Is there any way you can move them out of the way, maybe up towards the sky, so I can see the road in front?

Similar issues have been reported to the improvement suggestions before also. They all are relevant with the custom HUD request, but for this particular, an option to customly assign vertically the postion of the messages and/or the chattbox would do the job.

Actually, I like them lower from their current position, so I can be focused down the road, without looking up to the sky to see my split time. :)



Thx for the patch Scawen. Setup sorting helps a bunch, but I have soo many sets, it really needs sorting per track :x


Aren't we getting a little greedy? lol :D

ps
someone please remind us that "THIS IS NOT A REQUEST THREAD" :shy:

[Tweaker]

Well it is nice to have the sort option, but it is of no use for people that have loads of setups. Before the sorting was always by date, what good would it be to sort from A to Z when you have 30 some-odd setups on file? You'd still have to scroll for any latter setups in the list. I suppose it is just for those who know the name of the setup, but can't find it in their big list --- so the sorting alphabetically helps in that respect :shrug:.

[LFSn00b]

Aww, now LFS turned into a screenshot generator... :(
just kidding :d

It's really nice, i like the mirrors! :)
eep!

[Robbie]

Did the tweaker work with V2?

[avih]

Well it is nice to have the sort option, but it is of no use for people that have loads of setups. Before the sorting was always by date, what good would it be to sort from A to Z when you have 30 some-odd setups on file? You'd still have to scroll for any latter setups in the list. I suppose it is just for those who know the name of the setup, but can't find it in their big list --- so the sorting alphabetically helps in that respect :shrug:.

if you rename your sets such that the track name is at the start, then u can sort your sets by tracks...

[AndroidXP]

^ I just wanted to suggest that. If you name all your setups in the most common way (starting with the track shortcut), then sorting by name actually groups them by track too.

Okay, a folder based setup system with a little place for notes on each setup would be nice, but the much faster implemented "sort by name" is already really helpful now.

[neilmichaelcasey]

Hi - Just tried installing patch and I'm getting an error with the Extraction.

I Click the LFS-V2.exe File & an 'Extract to' box comes up, then Click Extract & getting error '7-zip' diagnostic message >> LFS-V2.exe is not supported archive.

Hmmmm - Am i missing something, could it be an associations issue? THX.

[mikey_G]

Its a great patch, the mirrors rock, and the sound stuttering has dissapeared for me (which is weird because I don't see anything about it in the changelog).
The only bug (or feature) I could find is if I load up a custom sound, it only loads it up for the current car, not for every car of the same class like in patch V.

Could someone confirm that?

[KMSpeed]

Hi - Just tried installing patch and I'm getting an error with the Extraction.

I Click the LFS-V2.exe File & an 'Extract to' box comes up, then Click Extract & getting error '7-zip' diagnostic message >> LFS-V2.exe is not supported archive.

Hmmmm - Am i missing something, could it be an associations issue? THX.

re-download the patch just in case.

Can you open the archive with winrar? (Right Click on it>Open With Winrar)

[neilmichaelcasey]

No cannot open it with winrar or winzip. Redownloaded afew times. the filesize is 1,016kb is this correct?

Is this a 7-Zip archive? Ill try install 7-Zip again. Thx.

EDIT - Just Reinstalled 7-Zip & rebooted, still getting same error. I just bet its something simple.

EDIT 2 - Tried clearing cache & re-dl, still getting error. Shockman, when i click the exe in the LFS directory a '7-Zip' extract box pops up, I click on extract & error - LFS-V2.exe not a supported format. Could someone confirm the filesize for me. Thx & sorry about all this, Its not a patch problem, but something at my end. Let me know if this is wrong place for this problem. Cheers

ALL FIXED NOW - THX - RESOLVED

[shockman]

I don't think you need any sort of unpacking. It is an exe file, so just place it in the LFS directory, double click it, and just press OK.

Edit: Your filesize seems to be correct - 1 040 567 B. Sorry mate, no idea what can be wrong here.

[herki]

No cannot open it with winrar or winzip. Redownloaded afew times. the filesize is 1,016kb is this correct?

Is this a 7-Zip archive? Ill try install 7-Zip again. Thx.

EDIT - Just Reinstalled 7-Zip & rebooted, still getting same error. I just bet its something simple.

try clearing your browser cache, using a different browser or a download manager, that might help with redownloading

[wheel4hummer]

The only bug (or feature) I could find is if I load up a custom sound, it only loads it up for the current car, not for every car of the same class like in patch V.

Could someone confirm that?

We've had that bug for as long as /edit_eng has been known to everyone.

[mrodgers]

We've had that bug for as long as /edit_eng has been known to everyone.
It's not a bug. Each sound file is specific to a car, not a car class.

I've been using the virtual mirror because I couldn't move the real mirror over to the left far enough. I previously thought it was because of my FOV (60 degrees). Last night I switched to the real mirror to try it again and what do you know? When you move the slider right, it moves the mirror left, LOL. I guess I had always looked at the slider and though "hmm, the mirror is already over to the left.." Anyways, this was really the first time I've used the real mirrors, so I was wondering, was the mirror always that dark looking? The inside mirror I'm talking about, can't use the side mirrors as they are not in view at 60 degrees. The real mirror looked quite dark like it had some tint on it or something. The virtual mirror as I used previously was never like that.

For the first time, I had overwritten my current install of LFS with a patch. I had always copied LFS and patched the new install. After installing V2, I jumped online and had a weird stutter in framerate. It would drop about 15 frames every 3-4 seconds. I was bummed since I'm on dialup and remembered that I wouldn't be able to easily revert back to V (25 mb download IIRC or 5 autoupdates at 1-1.5 mb each to update my old U30 folder). Fortunate for me, I had an error on my internet logon which made me reboot. After the reboot I tried to see if I could downgrade my graphics to cover the 15 FPS loss, and when I logged back on before changing graphics, the stutter was gone. I just wanted to post that incase anyone else saw something similar.

[510N3D]

im not sure if this has been reported before by anyone, i have noticed a strange thing, no matter if im in race or replay, the fov seems to changes even if its the same car. For example, (attachment) im in a FXO and the guy behind me called "Soundforge" as well. Now as you can see, the car is the same and i havend edited the value at all. I havend tried that with other cars so far and if you need the replay as well please let me know. It was already in patch V.

About the improvements:

Higher resolution image in mirrors
CTRL+S saves a screen shot to the shots folder
No need to type edit_eng before using sound editor

Those are my favorites :thumb:

cheers

[XGremlinX_pt]

Tks for the update :) Glad to see the test patches flowing again, always great news!
No problems so far with this update

[Madman_CZ]

Man can't believe I only noticed there was a patch out now.. Do'h!

Anyway, downloaded it, extracted it, over written files, clicked run lfs and i get this error: attachment

Guessing it is a window error but i have never ever seen a error like this before..


mad

[wheel4hummer]

It's not a bug. Each sound file is specific to a car, not a car class.

You are right and wrong at the same time. If you are on a XFG-only server, and you change the sound of one XFG, the rest of the XFGs do not change. It is a bug... :shrug:

[mikey_G]

Me saying that it doesn't change with the car class was dumb, poor choice of words.
I meant that if I set a sound for AI1 in a fxo, AI2 in a fxo keeps using the default sound set.
So you have the same car type, but each one sounds different.

[tristancliffe]

You are right and wrong at the same time. If you are on a XFG-only server, and you change the sound of one XFG, the rest of the XFGs do not change. It is a bug...

Why is it a bug? Maybe it was meant to be like that? Perhaps the non-local cars' sound is loaded when joining, and not thereafter changeable, whilst the local car is updated in real time.

Just because it doesn't do what you expect it to do doesn't mean it's a bug.

[mikey_G]

if you read my first post about this tristan, i said it could be a bug or a feature...

[tristancliffe]

My post wasn't directed at you but Wheel4Hummer. Have edited my post to make that clearer.

[JTbo]

Why is it a bug? Maybe it was meant to be like that? Perhaps the non-local cars' sound is loaded when joining, and not thereafter changeable, whilst the local car is updated in real time.

Just because it doesn't do what you expect it to do doesn't mean it's a bug.

Also, what about if car sounds are bit like skins, you change sound of your car and it does sound then same at your and in other's machines, making your car sound individual, so we can hear who it is trying to overtake without even looking :scratchch Now that would be quite nice feature, imo.

[X-Ter]

Hi - Just tried installing patch and I'm getting an error with the Extraction.

I Click the LFS-V2.exe File & an 'Extract to' box comes up, then Click Extract & getting error '7-zip' diagnostic message >> LFS-V2.exe is not supported archive.

Hmmmm - Am i missing something, could it be an associations issue? THX.

I get the same message, and I've tried all the hind and tips given in this thread. Would be helpful if the files could be distributed like proper .ZIP or .RAR files :)

[Shotglass]

repackaged to zip for anyone whos having problems

[X-Ter]

Thankyou :)

[Bob Smith]

High res mirrors are very nice, finally graphics are at an equal level. :) One issue though...
Same distortion regardless of the volume setting
Is that supposed to be an improvement? Because now I can't stop DaveWS's sound pack from distorting all over the place, it sounds much better with V. I appreciate these aren't original sounds, and the sound editor is unsupported, but how are we supposed to eliminate clipping if reducing the volume still clips the sound? What was the benefit of this change? :)

[Zildjian]

Is it true that it is now possible to rewind replays?
If so, how???

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

er - no :really:

[AndroidXP]

Is it true that it is now possible to rewind replays?
If so, how???
Where did you get that idea from? :really:

[neilmichaelcasey]

repackaged to zip for anyone whos having problems

Thank You - All sorted now. Nice Patch Team - Peace :)

[R3DMAN]

for some reason LFS texture usate has shot up to 70mb!

i dont have a clue why!

i did a single player game with full ai and i started at the back i got 5 - 15 fps!

Edit:

im just re-downloading the installer for LFS and gunna try a fresh install.. see what it all is and see what frames i get.

[DaveWS]

High res mirrors are very nice, finally graphics are at an equal level. :) One issue though...

Is that supposed to be an improvement? Because now I can't stop DaveWS's sound pack from distorting all over the place, it sounds much better with V. I appreciate these aren't original sounds, and the sound editor is unsupported, but how are we supposed to eliminate clipping if reducing the volume still clips the sound? What was the benefit of this change? :)

Yeah, and it also makes the volume slider in LFS pretty useless... You may as well have it set to max all the time.

I guess i'll have to make a new soundpack with more adequate car volumes.. :shrug:

BTW, the "PACK" button, that works by (e.g. for my pack) by extracting the .eng files into the engine folder, clicking the "Pack" button and typing DaveWS? I know that works, but is that how its meant to work?

[Markz]

repackaged to zip for anyone whos having problems

THANK YOU!!!

[Racer X NZ]

Anyways, this was really the first time I've used the real mirrors, so I was wondering, was the mirror always that dark looking? The inside mirror I'm talking about, can't use the side mirrors as they are not in view at 60 degrees. The real mirror looked quite dark like it had some tint on it or something. The virtual mirror as I used previously was never like that.



You've got it tilted to stop headlight flare, just tilt it up & that will fix it. You should know that LFS is going for total realism. :really:

[Renku]

BTW, the "PACK" button, that works by (e.g. for my pack) by extracting the .eng files into the engine folder, clicking the "Pack" button and typing DaveWS? I know that works, but is that how its meant to work?
You could have a chat with Scawen or smth, maybe make a .pack file similar to .m3u file. I didn't type DaveWS, [CTRL]+C from before opening a single car file and then to PACK and [CTRL]+V, deleted the car prefix and done; can't remember anything these days :schwitz:.

[VTiRoj]

Well I must say, the test patch is very good. Even though tweak and slickmod wont work with it, ohwell its worth it. However I found that if I take a screen shot in 3rd person view (IE Behind my car), the shots taken display my interior, this a bug?

[josepmaria]

Thanks for a new sign of game progress ... working fine here !!! :thumb:

[Warper]

Thanks scawen for the test patch. But i have to say that i had a very big problem:

I updated the game, then went online on our own dedicated host (Version V). The only available car was the XFR. One teammate was already on that host with Version V. My LFS connected properly and spectated my teammate, but all i saw, was him driving in an GTI and the driver STANDING with all above the ass beeing out of the car. But thats not all. The game extremly stuttered, so i closed LFS to start it again.

When i restarted it, alle these "first-lfs-start"-dialogues popped up. But LFS was still unlocked. The problem was, my main player profile could not been opened any more. When i tried to load it, LFS said: Can't open ****. I had to delete it in the explorer... Of course i had to set all the profile specific options again... :(

But since i configured it all again i had no problems anymore...!

Greets,
Warper

PS: You should also know, that i have the HQ skies installed and also smokemod was running while i started LFS V2 the first time...

[nesrulz]

Thanks Scawen! :thumb:

[Scawen]

Yeah, and it also makes the volume slider in LFS pretty useless... You may as well have it set to max all the time.

I guess i'll have to make a new soundpack with more adequate car volumes.. :shrug:The distortion was an important element of the sound, and in V we had a bit of a problem that the sound was completely different depending on the volume set by the user. But I think a volume control slider bar isn't really supposed to change the sound, it's supposed to leave the sound the same but make it louder.

The distortion was originally introduced as a soft clipping measure, to avoid the worst kind of clipping, but later I realised that it was an important part of the sound, so it turned out to be wrong the way I did it before. Now, the distortion is the same as it was for anyone who had LFS set to full volume in V.

I tested your nice sound pack and I liked it a lot, that was the inspiration for the PACK load button. But I did notice that the race cars were too clipped on full volume. At least with your sound pack now, you will know that it sounds the same on everyone's computer.

BTW, the "PACK" button, that works by (e.g. for my pack) by extracting the .eng files into the engine folder, clicking the "Pack" button and typing DaveWS? I know that works, but is that how its meant to work?Exactly, when I tested your sound pack, I did not want to load each car's sound individually, I just wanted to type DaveWS once. :)

[Electrik Kar]

About the improvements:

Higher resolution image in mirrors
CTRL+S saves a screen shot to the shots folder
No need to type edit_eng before using sound editor

Those are my favorites :thumb:

Me too :nod: Thanks very much Scawen.

[SlamDunk]

1. There's a weird problem with the "Home" key. This was in version V too. I noticed this a few days ago, actually.

When you press "1" and watch the replay the "Home" key functions as it should but when you load a saved replay from the menu the key does not work. I have not tried if this is the case with MP replays.

2. Shift+U settings, like the move speed, are not saved. The settings reset when you quit LFS.

* * *

- Thank you for the screen shot button. Finally :tilt:
- That's one hot and sexy mirror resolution :D

[Bob Smith]

The distortion was an important element of the sound, and in V we had a bit of a problem that the sound was completely different depending on the volume set by the user. But I think a volume control slider bar isn't really supposed to change the sound, it's supposed to leave the sound the same but make it louder.
That does make sense, although I'm not convinced this is the ideal solution. Wouldn't a better way be to prevent excess clipping, rather than forcing it?
With V2, everyone's sound is like full volume (20). IIRC, using 20 distorts even with the original sounds (although I last tested that pre-V, so I could be talking bull here). Why not make it so that everyones sound is like half volume (10)?

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

I may have misread, but I thought the point of leaving the soft clipping in was that he discovered that it's an important element of the final product.... "it sounds better" :D So why would he remove it; and regress the sound system?

Half volume = :thumbsdow

It's quiet enough as it is!

[Breizh]

Cmon Scawen :D (http://youtube.com/watch?v=ksckf0vN3zU)

[XsX!]

High res mirrors are very nice, finally graphics are at an equal level. :) One issue though...

Is that supposed to be an improvement? Because now I can't stop DaveWS's sound pack from distorting all over the place, it sounds much better with V. I appreciate these aren't original sounds, and the sound editor is unsupported, but how are we supposed to eliminate clipping if reducing the volume still clips the sound? What was the benefit of this change? :)

strange. the davews pack sounds much better after the v2. :scratchch
i'm not running on cheapo speakers

[Lautsprecher[NOR]]

strange. the davews pack sounds much better after the v2. :scratchch
i'm not running on cheapo speakers

Yeah, the RAC sound like a beast now

[Scawen]

That does make sense, although I'm not convinced this is the ideal solution. Wouldn't a better way be to prevent excess clipping, rather than forcing it?It's not possible to prevent hard clipping, when several cars are around and there's an echo, for example, or the sound designer just sets too high a volume. And before the soft clipping was introduced, some testers were already beginning to use HARD clipping as part of the sound, but it's very harsh. Windows / DirectSound only gives us a little range to play with, and it kind of only goes to 1, there's no 1.1 or 1.5. So soft clipping is needed.

It turns out that soft clipping (i.e. stopping the sound wave being cut off abruptly at it reaches its peak) is similar to something that happens in your ear or in the air when there are loud noises around, the waves get distorted. Please don't ask me about that effect as I'm not an expert on the physics of sound, I haven't looked very deeply into it, I'm just accepting what I am told, on the basis that distorted (soft clipped) car sounds can sound better, and that my ears don't do any "hard clipping" in real life, and that I don't really have any choice in the matter anyway. It's also used in music apparently. You just cannot allow hard clipping in a sound wave. Soft clipping allows you to play a louder sound, without reaching the limit and getting the very harsh sound of hard clipping.

With V2, everyone's sound is like full volume (20). IIRC, using 20 distorts even with the original sounds (although I last tested that pre-V, so I could be talking bull here). Why not make it so that everyones sound is like half volume (10)?It doesn't make any difference, I've now given the choice to the sound pack designers. V2 allows car sound designers to have the choice of how their engines sound. DaveWS's set should sound exactly the same as it did before, for those people who put their volume up to max. He can make it sound the same as it did for people on half volume, if he reduces all the volume sliders in his pack. You are right that I could have set the level wherever, but my assumption was that all sounds would have been designed for full volume settings. And LFS's default setting was very near maximum.

I hope that helps to explain the decisions behind this. The original sounds were designed at full volume, but a wrong design decision by me meant that there was less soft clipping / desirable distortion when any user used lower volumes. That meant the user who wanted to change the volume, also changed the sound itself. I don't think that is the intended function of a volume control. DaveWS now has the choice, and when he gets feedback from any user about his sounds, he doesn't need to know what volume they are listening at.

This is one reason why the sound system wasn't released - it was not finished. Remember I warned that things could change. It's funny now that you are already concerned about me making this tiny change, that affects existing sound packs, and getting me into a long discussion about it! :D Exactly what I warned about! :D The good thing is I've not changed anything about the generation of the sounds, and all I have done is given control back to the whoever edits the sounds.

[detail]

What does the new translation string do? (%s : %s) for what does it hold places?

[Scawen]

What does the new translation string do? (%s : %s) for what does it hold places?It is to specify whether you want a space before the colon or not.

In your case you should leave it as that, because you have left your translation in the default style, leaving a space before the colon in translated strings. But some translators have removed that space, so it appeared inconsistent in some cases where LFS built the string with the colon.

[DaveWS]

This is one reason why the sound system wasn't released - it was not finished. Remember I warned that things could change. It's funny now that you are already concerned about me making this tiny change, that affects existing sound packs, and getting me into a long discussion about it! :D Exactly what I warned about! :D The good thing is I've not changed anything about the generation of the sounds, and all I have done is given control back to the whoever edits the sounds.

Ok now that you explain it like that, it is a very good addition for how the sound engine now works. :thumb:

So yes, thank you for that. I'll have a play with the sounds again tonight. Actually the mild distortion / clipping might allow some sounds to sound extra grunty (GTR's / BF1).

[Bob Smith]

OK Scawen, I understand you fully now. Just need DaveWS to redo his pack and all will be great again, or for now I can reduce the volumes manually. Perhaps I just have sensitive ears for clipping, it sounds horrible to me, one of the main reason I can't enjoy music at clubs, aside from the barrage of volume, is that it's so distorted and clipped I can barely make it out.

With what you were saying about the ear naturally soft clipping loud sounds, I always thought racecars sounded better from a small distance, so it could well be more realisitic to have soft clipping when incar to simulate the volume, although personally I'd rather do that with the volume control on my amp.

XsX! - it's all personal oppinion really, although higher end kit will show up any distortion and clipping in the signal more easily.

[Shotglass]

i know this is a bit of a thread hijack but it might still help scawen to work out the sound system a little better
is there anybody here who can explain why ears would soft clip ?

[Dibblah]

i know this is a bit of a thread hijack but it might still help scawen to work out the sound system a little better
is there anybody here who can explain why ears would soft clip ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochlea

Not a quote, but:

The ear is an analog system, with (effectively) a inverse log (however you would describe it) response to sound pressures at different frequencies. Therefore, the 'signal' recieved by the brain has very little differentiation between "loud" and "very loud" as compared to "quiet" and "normal".

Very loud is mostly not heard, but felt throughout the body.

Clipping is an artifact of representing an analog (boundless) signal in a digitally limited space. This obviously doesn't apply in a biological system except in the most extreme cases.

Cheers,

Allan.

[Dibblah]

There also seems to be some misunderstanding of what "soft clipping" actually refers to.

Hard clipping can be represented in the worst case as a sound looking like:


__ __ __ __
_ __ __ __



Note that the transitions are vertical. This causes a large amount of additional high frequency 'transition' noise in itsself - the speakers literally stop with a bang. Also, it causes reverberations in the speaker cone itsself. In the worst case, this can destroy speakers.

Soft clipping makes the above picture look like:


_ _ _ _
_/ \_/ \_/ \_/



Which is much less hard on the speakers and creates less distortion, through 'curving' the top and bottom of the digital signal slightly - The actual value used is usually 1-2 bits of resolution, so has little impact on the actual sound.

Cheers,

Allan.

[Shotglass]

Not a quote, but:

The ear is an analog system, with (effectively) a inverse log (however you would describe it) response to sound pressures at different frequencies. Therefore, the 'signal' recieved by the brain has very little differentiation between "loud" and "very loud" as compared to "quiet" and "normal".

Very loud is mostly not heard, but felt throughout the body.

i havent really found anything relating to clipping from skipping though the wiki article
but what you said sounds mole like compression than clipping to me ie the ear doesnt clip sounds but normalizes what you hear
which means that lound noises are heard quieter than they are but without distortion

There also seems to be some misunderstanding of what "soft clipping" actually refers to.

yeah its made worse by that fact that this is called a hard limiter:
http://www.shef.ac.uk/psychology/gurney/notes/l8/hlim.gif

and in signal processing the one on the left is often refered to as a soft limiter (which we here refer to as hard clipping):
http://www.audiomaster.it/tutorial/ttrimgs/compressori/knee.gif

the soft clipper in this discussion would look something like the one on the right

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

but what you said sounds mole like compression than clipping to me ie the ear doesnt clip sounds but normalizes what you hear
which means that lound noises are heard quieter than they are but without distortion


With the ear working as described above, it does not / obviously cannot reduce the amplitude of incomming sound & therefore is not normalizing, rather it's more sensitive to quiet(er) sounds despite what's arriving at the ear canal. This is somewhat analagous to soft clipping, and likely greatly affects how we "perceive" very loud sounds. This, from what I can tell, is why Scawen went down this path. Obviously it's backwards, because the dyanmic range we can produce on a PC is so limited in comparison to the experience we want to reproduce - but it's definitely the correct approach. Your ear being analog has infinite ability to "soft clip", even though technically is not "clipping" at all per se, but rather more like an infinitely adjustable response curve to varying amplitude.

How else could one produce the illusion with such a limited dynamic range that we have to work with?

[nesrulz]

Scawen, can u pls add 2 buttons per one command in controls menu?

Example: MOMO Racing Wheel (Shift Up and Shift Down), paddle shifters or sequential shifter in same time...

RGDS

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

I'm certain I read a request for no requests in this thread, posted by Scawen on post #1 :)

[Shotglass]

With the ear working as described above, it does not / obviously cannot reduce the amplitude of incomming sound & therefore is not normalizing

the ear itself being a mechanical/hydraulic instrument of course cant
what i actually meant is that the hair cells together with your brain reduce the sensation of louder sounds and amplify quieter ones which is in fact normalization

rather it's more sensitive to quiet(er) sounds despite what's arriving at the ear canal. This is somewhat analagous to soft clipping

no its not cause clipping is an effect on the waveform itself not on the level
ive yet to see anything that causes distortion to the perceived waveform and not just the perceived level of the sound (other than masking but thats not the subject here)

though technically is not "clipping" at all per se, but rather more like an infinitely adjustable response curve to varying amplitude.

theres the problem everything ive read so far relates to the level and not the amplitude

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

the ear itself being a mechanical/hydraulic instrument of course cant
what i actually meant is that the hair cells together with your brain reduce the sensation of louder sounds and amplify quieter ones which is in fact normalization

Actually that would be compression, since some dynamic range is lost in what you described. Normalizing would be just increasing the max amplitude to a some "normal" level, while preserving difference in volume in relation to other sounds.
I think you're describing the perception rather than the phenomenon that causes the said perception, at least in the latter case - no amplification can occur... I'm looking at it from the perspective of your ear being an "IO device".

no its not cause clipping is an effect on the waveform itself not on the level
ive yet to see anything that causes distortion to the perceived waveform and not just the perceived level of the sound (other than masking but thats not the subject here)

The same sound will be perceived totally different at very high SPL in comparison to a reasonable SPL, which means it's being interpreted differently. Whether this is due to the brain interpreting it differently, or the ear passing the brain different information is irrelevant because the end result is the same. So it is semantics, but in a broad sense, your ear "is modifying the waveform" - note the quotes because it's physically impossible to literally do that, and yet the end result - at least in terms of perception - is similar with loud sounds... At least from my limited understanding.

theres the problem everything ive read so far relates to the level and not the amplitude

I don't understand what you mean by that, could you explain it? (thought those were synonymous)

Clearly you would "pwn!!11" me with an acoustics discussion (i've been here awhile and read plenty of your posts) so I am here to learn as well, as I find this topic very interesting.

edit: Just to be clear, I think we should decide what we are going to focus on - perception, or rather what is literally happening. It would be easy to confuse the two and misunderstand each other. My basic contention is that what Scawen mentioned regarding how he's processing the sounds now is correct because it will help to create some of the perceptions that were previously missing, if you were not running full volume in LFS.

[KMSpeed]

Scawen, can u pls add 2 buttons per one command in controls menu?

Example: MOMO Racing Wheel (Shift Up and Shift Down), paddle shifters or sequential shifter in same time...

RGDS

This has an easy work around.
Assign the Shift Up and Shift Down to 2 keyboard keys also. Then use the profiler of your wheel to send these keystrokes whenever you click the paddle shifters or the suquential chifter and it's done.

[nesrulz]

This has an easy work around.
Assign the Shift Up and Shift Down to 2 keyboard keys also. Then use the profiler of your wheel to send these keystrokes whenever you click the paddle shifters or the suquential chifter and it's done.

Yes... i know, thx anyway. :thumb:

[DaveWS]

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=331339 :D

[[FuLLocK]JoK3R]

Recently installed this patch, ever since... Every now and then I get this error... it loads track then crashes...

[Shotglass]

Actually that would be compression, since some dynamic range is lost in what you described. Normalizing would be just increasing the max amplitude to a some "normal" level, while preserving difference in volume in relation to other sounds.

Yes and no. You´re of course right but its a matter of how you look at it. Normalisation usually refers to something you do on a a single track. So if you consider conversations with speakers talking at different loudness as sperate tracks to be normalised, the effect will be compression as related to your whole lifetime of hearing being a single track.
Either way I´m pretty sure this is what happens in your ear/brain. Maybe it´s just me but when I whisper I sort of know that the speaker is very quiet, but I don´t really perceive him as being quiet, as long as he´s still loud enough to be intelligable.

I think you're describing the perception rather than the phenomenon that causes the said perception, at least in the latter case - no amplification can occur... I'm looking at it from the perspective of your ear being an "IO device".

Googling turned up this:
The inner hair cells (IHC) of the cochlea, which convert sound to nerve impulses, have a dynamic range of less than 50 dB. But we can hear over a 120 dB dynamic range! How is this possible? It turns out that the ears have a built-in sound level compression system, created by the outer hair cells (OHC) of the cochlea. In the most active region of the cochlea basilar membrane, a 4 dB increase in sound pressure at the eardrum increases the membrane motion as little as 1 dB, due to mechanical action of the OHC.

The same sound will be perceived totally different at very high SPL in comparison to a reasonable SPL, which means it's being interpreted differently. Whether this is due to the brain interpreting it differently, or the ear passing the brain different information is irrelevant because the end result is the same. So it is semantics, but in a broad sense, your ear "is modifying the waveform" - note the quotes because it's physically impossible to literally do that, and yet the end result - at least in terms of perception - is similar with loud sounds... At least from my limited understanding.

Actually it is physically possible, by either limited space for the membrane to move or the hair cells themself limiting that movement.
But I´ve yet to find anything, that really supports limiting distortion below the point where the ears receive permanent damage, which could be seen as some very very hard clipping but thats not really the point of this discussion.

All non linearites of the ear I´ve read about so far, are intermodulations of fequencies close to each other, caused by the "spacial dispersion" one tone causes along the length of the membrane.

I don't understand what you mean by that, could you explain it? (thought those were synonymous)

Level is a measurement of power so it basically refers to the mean of the waveform, whereas amplitude is the maximum of the wave.
Level limiting will squeeze and expand the waveform to a certain (quadratic) mean, without any change to the shape of it so the only distortion/loss is in dynmaic range (effectively what the volume slider does with v2).
Opposed to that amplitude limitation just cuts off everything above a certain threshold, causing a clearly visible change in the waveform as well as lots of unwanted high frequency components.

edit: Just to be clear, I think we should decide what we are going to focus on - perception, or rather what is literally happening.

I´m not sure if those two are clearly sperateable.

[MoonForce]

Cmon Scawen :D (http://youtube.com/watch?v=ksckf0vN3zU)

if u want SUCH a sound in lfs :D i suggest u my FZ5 Soundfile i created for personal use lol...

it makes the fz5 sound like a tuned porsche :D hehehe

its rough and distorted, great for cruising between 3.000 and 4.000 rpm in 4th or 5th gear, then downshifting to 3rd and FIIIIIIRE :D

see attached file (scawen should also have a look lol)

[shim]

quick question..

with the /log=name.xxx command, is this useable within the dedi? might help some admins of why people are getting banned from servers and such if the owner is not about..

bump since it hasnt been answered.

[Davo]

Yes it's usable on the dedi server :)

[ReVVeD]

A big THANK YOU for the cedega fix!!!! Been wanting to play for ages, actully had to use winblows just to play lfs.... time to test out this bad boy :D

[Naix]

Good to better see who is in the rearviewmirror :D

But I can feel a loss of 10 FPS since I applied this patch on any cars any circuits, may change my graphical card soon :really: (6600GT Max Details, no AA or aniso, 1280x1024)

[Renku]

Good to better see who is in the rearviewmirror :D

But I can feel a loss of 10 FPS since I applied this patch on any cars any circuits, may change my graphical card soon :really: (6600GT Max Details, no AA or aniso, 1280x1024)
I lost 2 FPS. 1 lap replay, 10 cars (R9600XT). I believe it depends on your PC, if powerful enough, then no change.

Frames: 4011 - Time: 108457ms - Avg: 36.982 - Min: 25 - Max: 59 V
Frames: 3782 - Time: 108653ms - Avg: 34.808 - Min: 23 - Max: 57 V2

[The Moose]

Soo nice to see the hi res mirrors:thumb:
I didn't see any FPS loss...at most it was 1 or 2 fps, and thats with my crappy old xp2400(@2266)/9700pro rig.

Im still amazed at how well this sim runs on my old machine. Even with Hi-res skies and loads of hi-res textures it flies. (1152*864 ,2*AA, 8*AF everything turned up full)
With a full grid it will drop to 25fps on the start line, but generally it keeps up a steady 50-60 fps up to over 100fps on certain tracks with a small grid.
Amazing bit of programming IMO:thumbsup:

[Markz]

I opened both V and V2 and made them same-size windows next to each other, and they both had the same FPS. I closed V and V2's FPS went up, then did the opposite, and they were still equal.

[ReVVeD]

Amazing bit of programming IMO:thumbsup:

The wonder of directx 8, tbh i found making games in directx8 hella easier than directx9 with all its defining and declaring... how i will laugh when directx10 games are in full swing... when ill be on my linux box enjoying opengl and my 500 fps :D

[josepmaria]

Thanks for a new sign of game progress ... working fine here !!! :thumb:

Well, not completely ... I had to unlock my 2nd installation of LFS in my office (tssst ... dont tell anybody !!!:x) while I had no problems with my home's one.
I know, you are going to tell me that I shouldn't play LFS ant my office ...:shrug:

[Markz]

Well, not completely ... I had to unlock my 2nd installation of LFS in my office (tssst ... dont tell anybody !!!:x) while I had no problems with my home's one.
I know, you are going to tell me that I shouldn't play LFS ant my office ...:shrug:

You really shouldn't play LFS at your office...

:D

[SlamDunk]

Noticed that the previous screen shots in \shots folder are overwritten if you restart LFS and start capturing images again. Can you please make it so that it just adds up?

[KMSpeed]

wow, I really haven't noticed that and now I checked there are my 3 latest pics there. All the others are overwritten :(

+1 to change that behavior in a future update...

[Pinto_PT]

Hi, I used the sound editor to load Davews sound pack, all went fine, I exit LFS, after a while played a little more, and the sounds were Davews.

So now is the possible bug?
In the garage, I happened to delete an old skin "color profile", and after that the sounds went to default, I select my car "color profile" again and default sounds were still there.

So I loaded the sound pack again :scratchch

Maybe others could reproduce the problem ( if it's a problem, bug? )

:)

Noticed that the previous screen shots in \shots folder are overwritten if you restart LFS and start capturing images again. Can you please make it so that it just adds up?

Also reproduced this, and I know you don't want requests in this thread, but...

Is it possible that the shots are the resolution you are playing and not what you see?

:)

[josepmaria]

You really shouldn't play LFS at your office...

:D
I told you someone was going to tell me that !!! :)

[legoflamb]

I didn't have to re-unlock, but now with the new patch I keep getting sound clipping, either that, or my headphones blew out while I was extracting? :(

[Warper]

Is it possible that the shots are the resolution you are playing and not what you see?

:)

Ehm, don't get me wrong - but whats the difference between the resolution you play and the one you see? :)

Greets

[Scawen]

Noticed that the previous screen shots in \shots folder are overwritten if you restart LFS and start capturing images again. Can you please make it so that it just adds up?I confirm this is a bug in the writing of cfg.txt - now fixed in my version.

[dewyl]

STILL NOT FIXED (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=19347)

[AndroidXP]

:pillepall

He said in his version. Not in any released one...

[Scawen]

In the garage, I happened to delete an old skin "color profile", and after that the sounds went to default, I select my car "color profile" again and default sounds were still there.

So I loaded the sound pack again :scratchch

Maybe others could reproduce the problem ( if it's a problem, bug? )

:)Thanks, I reproduced this and it's now fixed in my version.

[Scawen]

STILL NOT FIXED (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=19347)Please don't write so big, and do include a description in your text.

For anyone else who is reading, dewyl meant to say :

" There is still no ESC menu available when watching an MPR ".

I know that, it's not a bug, but something that does need doing so it's consistent with SPR's I need to make MPR's loop and add an escape menu. It's on my list and I don't need reminding. I never said it was fixed so I don't need your big red text shouting at me. You just make me less likely to devote the few days I need to do it, because you might think I'm rewarding you for shouting at me.

[Belain]

just keep on doing those great updates mate ;)

theres a realy good progress from update to update...cant wait for the next incompatible (which will hopefully have some balance)

keep up the good work ;)
realy enjoying V2 (except from screenshots being saved as .bmp's) :rolleyes:

[Scawen]

realy enjoying V2 (except from screenshots being saved as .bmp's) :rolleyes:Yeah that is crap, but it's the only save that DirectX 8.1 does. :(

I don't mind, as long as people don't start attaching uncompressed BMP to forum posts. Remember to convert them to JPG please, everyone! :)

[Vain]

I have a bug that is propably caused by S2.
Reproduction steps:
Start LFS 0.5V2
Go to singleplayer, Blackwood GP, select the XFG
Start a practice session
After starting, press shift+u to enter the autocross-editor
Select "Options" in the lower right corner
The screen flickers, the driver-model that should be viewable is sometimes cut in half (see first screenshot) and the car on the track can interfere with the model of the driver (second screenshot).
Use throttle and brake to incluence the flickering.

The procedure above is only *one* way to reproduce this. I had this occur to me originally on BL2 with the XRT.
The options screen works very well if I access it in a different manner (esc -> options), which leads me to believe that this is a software-internal problem.

Vain

[mikey_G]

Yeah, I can reproduce it as well, pretty nasty flickering.

[three_jump]

found another bug in V and V2,

when leaving the message history enabled (shift+h) long messages overlay the textbox (T). See attachment.

[Belain]

Yeah that is crap, but it's the only save that DirectX 8.1 does. :(

I don't mind, as long as people don't start attaching uncompressed BMP to forum posts. Remember to convert them to JPG please, everyone! :)
i dont know how hard this would be or if its even possible...but what about when lfs takes a screenshot have another program within lfs so to say that converts and compresses the bmp to jpg e.g. the moment it gets save?

and if that doesnt work lets just change over to DirectX 10 :P

j/k

[Blackout]

Can't produce the flickering Vain mentioned. The driver figure does overlap with objects, but can't get any flickering on my Radeon 9600XT.

[Hyperactive]

There could be a simple text file in the "shots" folder with a simple explanation why you shouldn't post bmp files. People will post the bmp's because they think that it is the official file format because that's the file format lfs uses :( :)

Would it possible that "shots" folder would be "screenshots" folder, or "screenies" if the lenght is an issue? :shy:

[Markz]

ATi Radeon 9800 (lol said the wrong card, thanks Madman for reminding me)

three_jump, I get that too.

Pinto, haven't been able to replicate that. I used the Pack button for DaveWS's engine sounds too and they're still on.

[Madman_CZ]

Ok i've tried to replicate the bug posted by Vain.

No flicker here but driver does get over lapped by objects. When the camera is at the lowest height in edit mode his legs go through the road.

graphics card radeon 9800pro
Latest omega drivers

mad

[mikey_G]

btw, i have a geforce 6800xt and have this flickering

[kompa]

There could be a simple text file in the "shots" folder with a simple explanation why you shouldn't post bmp files. People will post the bmp's because they think that it is the official file format because that's the file format lfs uses :( :)

Would it possible that "shots" folder would be "screenshots" folder, or "screenies" if the lenght is an issue? :shy:

for the newbies fine but it would take a popup to explain/give a choise so it's much of an annoyance to all the screenshot generators. maybe it could be clicked like "don't show me this stuff ever again".

but then they just click and notknow.

[Vain]

for the newbies fine but it would take a popup to explain/give a choise so it's much of an annoyance to all the screenshot generators. maybe it could be clicked like "don't show me this stuff ever again".

but then they just click and notknow.If there really is a problem Scawen will have to spend the 30 minutes to look up a random imaging library to include and pass the screenshot through before writing to the harddisc.
Until then we can just wait and see wether it is a problem at all.

Vain

[Shotglass]

one tiny "bug" thats been bugging me for a while now is that escape opens the options in the single player setup sceen instead of sending you back to the main menu
also shift+o doesnt work in the main menu

[Tweaker]

Does anyone have any freezing or small lockups with the new V patches? (V1 and V2). Because this happens on both of my systems, as well as my friends.

It happens in a few places of the game. When I join a multiplayer game, the game will freeze/lockup as soon as I am joined in and see the track. For a brief moment the game will lockup not moving at all, and you miss a lot of text messages in the process. Then once it resumes, "CHING CHING" (text flows in rapidly) the game resumes.

Also when exiting a multiplayer game, it takes time and locks up when trying to go back to the previous menus. The same thing happens in Singleplayer. And this isn't a random occurance, it happens everytime.

The lockups are for at least 6-10 seconds I'd say. It isn't fluid anymore.

[Blackout]

Also when exiting a multiplayer game, it takes time and locks up when trying to go back to the previous menus. The same thing happens in Singleplayer. And this isn't a random occurance, it happens everytime.

I'm having that. LFS takes like a small brake when I press the back button and it moves to the previous menu with long delay, I've had it for a while, thought it was my system getting slow. Not having that kind of issues with MP, but I do have another one. LFS only lets me connect one game per startup, and every time I exit a server and try to join a new game the connection doesn't work, and when I restart LFS it works again.

[daNieLbuM]

i just noticed some kind of bug. don't know whether i should post it here or in the bug section and i hope it has not been mentioned before.

it's about the difference between the sound in the car and the sound outside the car.
if you move the custom view out of the car on the x-axis the sound changes (correctly). but if you do the same on the y-axis it doesn't.
well, it does. but only if you move the view completely away from the car. (like y-offset=2.2m)

so the zone where you hear the muffled sound should be reduced to where the cockpit is, not where the whole car is. hope you get what i'm trying to explain :)

[hardcoreobscure]

Master port is now selectable in cfg.txt (29339 or 8080)


Thank you very very much for this option, I can now unlock from my uni network :thumb:

[AndroidXP]

...As far as I know, Scawen said he only uses a box around the car to determine if you're "inside" or not, because it's much faster and easier to implement that way.

[daNieLbuM]

As far as I know, Scawen said he only uses a box around the car to determine if you're "inside" or not, because it's much faster and easier to implement that way.

so it was already known, ok. i didn't think it would be more difficult to implement.
did he also say when that could work correctly ? it's quite annoying if you're using some kind of roof-cam :)

[dawesdust_12]

Too bad we couldn't have the box adjustable, show up as a nice orange box around the track (a la 3dsmax when you use a box UVW Mapping), and we can adjust the UVW(XYZ) size of the box.

[faster111]

Thanks for the test patch Scawen you and rest of devs rock.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

The inner hair cells (IHC) of the cochlea, which convert sound to nerve impulses, have a dynamic range of less than 50 dB. But we can hear over a 120 dB dynamic range! How is this possible? It turns out that the ears have a built-in sound level compression system, created by the outer hair cells (OHC) of the cochlea. In the most active region of the cochlea basilar membrane, a 4 dB increase in sound pressure at the eardrum increases the membrane motion as little as 1 dB, due to mechanical action of the OHC.


Indeed. Even though the absolute range of information your ear passes to your brain is different, the resolution does not have to be less overall. The logarithmic nature of the "input" side of the scale may not mean a whole lot in terms of our interpretation. I realize that "10db" is "double loudness to our brain" but what does that really mean - it's a subjective quantification IMO. The greater the DR a particular sound system can reproduce, the more "natural" it sounds - yet nothing can reproduce the DR of real life events. There's a contradiction here somewhere!



Actually it is physically possible, by either limited space for the membrane to move or the hair cells themself limiting that movement.

Well, exactly. That's what I was saying. The physically possible part was in reference to the input (it is what it is)

But I´ve yet to find anything, that really supports limiting distortion below the point where the ears receive permanent damage

I'm still working on that, see below :tilt:

All non linearites of the ear I´ve read about so far, are intermodulations of fequencies close to each other, caused by the "spacial dispersion" one tone causes along the length of the membrane.

If I visualize that, it makes sense.

However, how then would you explain the difference in perception (edit: in terms of characteristic, not apparant loudness) between two identical sources - one at 60dB and one at 110dB? Is it just due to the natural frequency response of your ear (which is nowhere near flat obviously... little spiral thing responsible for frequencies is "tuned" quite intelligently).

Back in my audiofreak days, I used to rountinely abuse my ears with 140dB pressures at frequencies of 25-50Hz. While that may hurt a tiny bit, the same pressure at frequencies much higher than that would be catastrophic - and that "hard hard clipping" you referred to would cause me some serious difficulty.

Level is a measurement of power so it basically refers to the mean of the waveform, whereas amplitude is the maximum of the wave.

Level limiting will squeeze and expand the waveform to a certain (quadratic) mean, without any change to the shape of it so the only distortion/loss is in dynmaic range (effectively what the volume slider does with v2).

Opposed to that amplitude limitation just cuts off everything above a certain threshold, causing a clearly visible change in the waveform as well as lots of unwanted high frequency components.

Intensity/power (what you call level) is not necessarily "loudness" though right? Amplitude on the other hand, is.

Here is some related poop I dug up:
----------
The threshold of hearing corresponds to air vibrations on the order of a tenth of an atomic diameter. This incredible sensitivity is enhanced by an effective amplification of the sound signal by the outer and middle ear structures. Contributing to the wide dynamic range of human hearing are protective mechanisms that reduce the ear's response to very loud sounds....In response to sustained loud sounds, muscle tension tightens the tympanic membrane and, acting through the tendon connecting the hammer and anvil, repositions the ossicles to pull the stirrup back, lessening the transfer of force to the oval window of the inner ear
------------------

Note the bold - this would seem to be effectively transforming the waveform (figuratively) on the "output side of your ear"

I´m not sure if those two are clearly sperateable.

Then I'll have to ask - what is the appropriate approach for creating the illusion of loudness? If you look at recordings from say GTR2, it appears that the same phenomenon exists there as well... And it "sounds loud"!

There's a lot more to discuss here, sorry I haven't taken the time to draw things out more. Some of the things I've been thinking are hard to articulate.

[Sticky-Micky]

useing "davews" recent patch sound pack, if i deselect all sounds ingame except the turbo and dump valve i can not hear them at all.

not sure if this is a fault at my end or not, i was racing the gtr cars today and wonderd where the turbo whine noise had went ?

[duke_toaster]

Hats off regarding the new features, fixes and the new mirrors.

There is a problem with control-S though.

The first screenshot you take is saved as lfs_001, then lfs_002 and so-on and so-forth (with more zeros). But when you close down LFS and restart it again, instead of the next one being lfs_003, it overwrites lfs_001. I just lost a few pics with that. :schwitz:

[AndroidXP]

Already been reported in this thread ;)
Noticed that the previous screen shots in \shots folder are overwritten if you restart LFS and start capturing images again. Can you please make it so that it just adds up?

[duke_toaster]

Already been reported in this thread ;)

Sorry, search didn't chuck it up :shy:

[Riders Motion]

Most of the time I won't be using the shots thingy, because the pics are a little blurried compared to printscreen in Gimp :shrug: Anyway good idea!

[AndroidXP]

Most of the time I won't be using the shots thingy, because the pics are a little blurried compared to printscreen in Gimp :shrug: Anyway good idea!
Printscreen and Shift+S have pretty much the same quality. You can verify by pausing the game, making one shot with Shift+S, the other with printscreen, then open one image, use the other as layer above it and set the layer mode to difference. The resulting image will be almost 100% black, because the difference is minimal.

E: Just tested it, there *are* differences over the whole screen, but it is pretty much only ±1 on R, G and/or B channel. Nothing you could make out with your eye.

[FL!P]

Sorry if this has been reported already, but this thread is getting pretty long and I don't have time now to read it all again.

I'm using DaveWS_soundpackV3 and everything's great (thanks for all the changes!), except that when I switch to free view (shift+U), the sound gets instantly more level and much more clipping, particularly when there are lots of cars close to me. Makes a big difference with the chase view, but I'd expect the two to be very similar.

[Scawen]

I have a bug that is propably caused by S2.
Reproduction steps:
Start LFS 0.5V2
Go to singleplayer, Blackwood GP, select the XFG
Start a practice session
After starting, press shift+u to enter the autocross-editor
Select "Options" in the lower right corner
The screen flickers, the driver-model that should be viewable is sometimes cut in half (see first screenshot) and the car on the track can interfere with the model of the driver (second screenshot).
Use throttle and brake to incluence the flickering.

The procedure above is only *one* way to reproduce this. I had this occur to me originally on BL2 with the XRT.
The options screen works very well if I access it in a different manner (esc -> options), which leads me to believe that this is a software-internal problem.I can't seem to reproduce the flicker. Can you describe that better, what is it that is flickering? The whole 3d picture, the text, the whole screen? If it's the whole screen, what is it flickering to? Blackness, or a background screen? Is there an easier way to reproduce the flicker? Does the game have to be paused, or not paused?

About the driver legs intersecting the ground or the car, I don't think that is related to any screen flicker. It's hard to change, and I'm not very concerned about it, it's just a z buffer thing due to drawing the options driver in the same user view place as the 3d world. Usually it's ok but sometimes there is an intersection.

[funkdancer]

Brilliant work on the latest patch! I got some screenshots from our latest league race (http://mondaynightracing.com) and ctrl+s just made it SO much easier. Those mirrors sure looked nice too, can't wait to test them in race.

Now, on thing I was wondering about, I'm on a 3H2G setup (http://www.ozbee-racing.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1270) and have noticed what appears to me as a small glitch - I can only see another racer's name tag when I'm almost right on top of the guy in front.

I only installed the test patch after the race so not sure if you touched anything here. Would it be possible to have the display distance as a factor in a config file or something similar to that? I kind of like not seeing the tag when they're far away, but at the moment I'd like to see it a bit earlier than what I get now.

Thanks again and keep up the great work.

[Widdowmaker]

I didnt notice that to start with... I am also on a TH2Go set up, and I have my draw distance set to max, every thing runnng full, and have experienced the same. I only see the player name when almost on top of the car in front.

Its not really a bug - but would prefer to see the name earlier (at a greater distance)

[dawesdust_12]

I also notice that bug, not with a TH2G setup, but just a normal 2 monitor setup running in Horizontal Span mode (nVidia card)

[KingOfIce]

Hi Scawen !

Thanks for all u do on LFS !!!

I have tested this new patch on Xp and i haven't any problem... On Vista, i've got a bug on mirrors : about every 2-3 seconds, no picture (except wheels and smoke).

(See on the 2 attached pictures)

Computer used : C2D E6600, 2x8800 GTX (sli) - tested with 3 different drivers

Edit : after some more tests, it seems to happen always in the same locations !
Edit 2 : i know it's perhaps not a LFS bug (driver!), just i report...

Hope it can help you...
Regards,
FRH KingOfIce

[a n d 1]

Hi Scawen, would be possible to get a ToDo-List again on the first post?
So people somehow do know whats coming up..!

[Scawen]

I won't write my to do list - because I never know what will make it to the next patch until I actually try to do it, but I can tell you what I've already done for V3. Test Patch V3 will be a fully compatible patch which fixes some bugs, improves some minor graphics elements and frame rate on most computers, and takes us another step closer to having multiple custom views per car which will make the film makers happy (not yet but we're getting there). Also some InSim updates. The idea is this should be one of the last fully compatible updates before a multiplayer incompatible version.

2D Display :

Improved small map car pointers
Improved needles and markers on clocks
Slightly more efficient 2d graphics drawing
Driver names draw distance no longer depends on FOV
FIX : Wide screen autocross object selection buttons

Graphics :

Better FPS due to removal of unecessary LOD checks
Removed option "Wider screen increases LOD"
Removed option "All scenery at maximum LOD"

Interface :

ESC now closes live suspension view and sound editor
HOME key now works correctly in single player replays
ESC in game setup screen now exits to entry screen
SHIFT+O in main entry screen now goes to options
FIX : Next screen shot number was not saved on exit
FIX : Default sound selected when deleting a colour

Views :

Separate FOV for each car's custom view
Separate steer look option per custom view
View screen rearranged to make more sense
Improved options for follow view (chase cam)

Misc :

Game setup screen stats : join / pit / spectate
New InSim packets (pit / penalty / take over / flags)

[a n d 1]

The idea is this should be one of the last fully compatible updates before a multiplayer incompatible version.

Exspecially this line makes me very happy! So hopefully you will be able to finish your work for V3 soon and start working on the necessary stuff (sorry if i call it that, but for me it is most important) again.

Happy going Scawen and make us happy again :thumb:

[XRRoy]

Exspecially this line makes me very happy! So hopefully you will be able to finish your work for V3 soon and start working on the necessary stuff (sorry if i call it that, but for me it is most important) again.

Happy going Scawen and make us happy again :thumb:

I couldn't discribe it any better :)

[Rtsbasic]

<Snip>

Nice list..bit suprised to see there's extra fps to be gained, LFS already runs 2x the framerate most other sims do. Nice work.

[CLRS530]

New InSim packets (pit / penalty / take over / flags)

Hi Scawen, could you attach the new insim.txt (if you finished wrote it) so that we can start updating our programs?
Or also for possible wish for something to change

[Scawen]

Nice list..bit suprised to see there's extra fps to be gained, LFS already runs 2x the framerate most other sims do. Nice work.Well I've just tested that in final form and the frame rate increase is very minimal, if at all. Actually I think it's just a bit smoother. Anyway it's cleaner code, quicker loading ("generating" time is shorter) and less memory usage, and less popup because the track segments don't use LOD any more. The LOD check was a slightly expensive square root for every object in previous versions.

Cars and trackside objects like cones, lamp posts, etc, still use LOD. LOD is higher overall now (because of the removal of wider screen affects LOD - it assumes you have a high resolution screen now, regardless of your screen res) unless you turn down your user LOD, which will affect mainly cars. It was a bad setting to use in the past because it cause track popup.

[Scawen]

Hi Scawen, could you attach the new insim.txt (if you finished wrote it) so that we can start updating our programs?
Or also for possible wish for something to changeI will attach that to the InSim thread in the programmer forum later this afternoon. So there will be time to discuss the changes before the patch (V3 should be at some time this week depending on how many more changes there will be).

[Scawen]

Exspecially this line makes me very happy! So hopefully you will be able to finish your work for V3 soon and start working on the necessary stuff (sorry if i call it that, but for me it is most important) again.

Happy going Scawen and make us happy again :thumb:Well I assume you mean by "necessary stuff" the planned incompatible changes.

Actually physically incompatible and multiplayer incompatible changes are no more "necessary" than the compatible changes, if you read the V change log, many of the changes were extremely important.

From reading the "Intel have spoken" thread in the main forum, it's clear that many people don't understand that... they can't understand why the features they personally consider most important haven't yet been done. But it's quite simple, there are many things to be done before S2, and they all have to be done at some point. The way I work is to do the compatible ones first, so the community tests them and we can put such an important patch as V out, so LFS still runs on new computers and has many improvements compared with the old U version. The plan now is to do a physically compatible but multiplayer incompatible version. This will of course make a few people very angry because their favourite feature will not be done. But it'll be good because the multiplayer incompatible version will have important updates that can be used while the physically incompatible version is developed.

It's not my concern, to worry about the people who can't understand our way of working and our choice of priorities. Our aim is to get S2 out and order the priority of features in any way we like, also following a bit of inspiration here and there, and cleaning up old code as well so LFS can continue to develop into the future.

[Red.Eye]

It's not my concern, to worry about the people who can't understand our way of working and our choice of priorities.

:thumb:

[KingOfIce]

Hi Scawen !

Thanks for all u do on LFS !!!

I have tested this new patch on Xp and i haven't any problem... On Vista, i've got a bug on mirrors : about every 2-3 seconds, no picture (except wheels and smoke).

(See on the 2 attached pictures)

Computer used : C2D E6600, 2x8800 GTX (sli) - tested with 3 different drivers

Edit : after some more tests, it seems to happen always in the same locations !
Edit 2 : i know it's perhaps not a LFS bug (driver!), just i report...

Hope it can help you...
Regards,
FRH KingOfIce

After some new tests, the disappearance of the objects in the mirrors always seems to occur at the same places of the circuit (idem to return).
It's strange but it is what I observed…

Do not hesitate if you want more informations or specific tests !
FRH KingOfIce

[BulliT]

Scawen, you talked before about removing the Hardware Vertex Shader option. I was just wondering if the HVS path is totally different to the non HVS path or if you just create the device with D3DCREATE_SOFTWARE_VERTEXPROCESSING instead?
I got the Intel G965 chipset so I use the software path now since intel haven't fixed their drivers yet. Works alright when there is not that many people around but gets quite sluggish even with a Core2 Duo 6600 at the start of the race.
For those in the same boat you can see Intels latest info here: http://www.intel.com/support/graphics/intelg965/sb/CS-025665.htm

[ORION]

Improved options for follow view (chase cam)

I'm not sure If I have reported this yet, but there is a slight glitch when viewing a car in chase cam, and then pressing ESC...Options...Player. It will rotate the camera, and it doesnt return to the correct position when you leave the menu.
It's sometimes really annoying when the car seems to be following the camera, rather the camera following the car :)
Maybe the rotation can be removed, just like in the rest of the menu.

[DeXteRrBDN]

is there a plan to add working cockpit gauges and mirrors while in external view? or it is maybe a bug :S

[banshee56]

Scawen,

I generally don't post directly to you or the other devs regarding the sim, but I would like to make an observation. Over the past year or so, I've noticed that you have started to defend yourself against posts like and1's, and I sense some growing frustration in your posts. I think his relative lack of experience with this sim (he's finished all of 13 races with an S2 license) has led him to be a little more impatient when it comes to waiting for updates.

I just wanted to publicly voice my support for your, and Eric and Victor's, efforts on the development of LFS. Sure, I've had times where I've wanted this or that, or was getting anxious for another update, but there is a reason why I've been playing this sim for 3+ years now: I enjoy watching the sim develop as much as I enjoy racing.

Keep up the good work and enjoy the ride as much as we do! :thumb:

[a n d 1]

banshee just a little note check my signature i have two lfs accounts ;)

[bbman]

Over the past year or so, I've noticed that you have started to defend yourself against posts like and1's, and I sense some growing frustration in your posts. I think his relative lack of experience with this sim (he's finished all of 13 races with an S2 license) has led him to be a little more impatient when it comes to waiting for updates.

I wouldn't say and1 (Andreas Grauel, one of those ESL Pro Series drivers) is new to LfS...

Anyway, I'm always baffled at how much punch the devs got to take sometimes (happens to be one of those times lately) and how good they're taking it. Keep it up! :thumb:

[three_jump]

I think his relative lack of experience with this sim (he's finished all of 13 races with an S2 license) has led him to be a little more impatient when it comes to waiting for updates.

Sorry for Hijacking but better check his other lfs account (http://www.lfsworld.net/?win=stats&racer=Andreas%20Grauel) ;)

But in general I agree with you.

@ Scavier: just do it like you have done it in the last years and have fun on your journey to... well, whereever your inspiration will lead to :)

[Scawen]

Scawen,

I generally don't post directly to you or the other devs regarding the sim, but I would like to make an observation. Over the past year or so, I've noticed that you have started to defend yourself against posts like and1's, and I sense some growing frustration in your posts. I think his relative lack of experience with this sim (he's finished all of 13 races with an S2 license) has led him to be a little more impatient when it comes to waiting for updates.

I just wanted to publicly voice my support for your, and Eric and Victor's, efforts on the development of LFS. Sure, I've had times where I've wanted this or that, or was getting anxious for another update, but there is a reason why I've been playing this sim for 3+ years now: I enjoy watching the sim develop as much as I enjoy racing.

Keep up the good work and enjoy the ride as much as we do! :thumb:Thanks. I'd just like to say that most of my post wasn't directed really at Andreas, mostly about the "Intel has spoken" thread.

I'm really not that frustrated about it. It does make me puzzle to understand why a few people keep coming back with the same old questions, but I'm basically done with explaining my point, it's gone too far in the past and involved too much emotion. That's why of course I won't reply on that thread and get into the same old discussion again. All the points I could make have been made over there already by some people who do understand the development process very well.

One thing I think is a pity though is that we are here making a sim for entertainment, we do a lot of work and reworking and give small updates often and large updates a couple of times per year, and it's just a little sad when it causes people to attack us in various ways, and so inconsistent those who say we have got it all wrong but still made the best sim (in their opinion)... :D

Anyway I'm past being very concerned, I just realise now that whatever you do, there will always be a few who want to attack.

But don't worry, I know that the majority of people accept and support our way of doing things, and there is even a greater silent majority there who normally just read and watch, and only say something when it's really needed (and that's not now). :)

[Gener_AL (UK)]

and there is even a greater silent majority there who normally just read and watch, and only say something when it's really needed (and that's not now). :)

bah , i`ll hold breath for a little while longer :)

(btw keep up the good work)

[Bob Smith]

So a multiplayer incompatible version, aside from obviously not be compatible online, will it break any other compatibilities? MPRs for instance? Without physics changes I would assume setups and SPRs would be safe, as would all the hotlaps and such.

Either way, I don't care really, just curious, as are we all. :)

[CLRS530]

Scawen said before that mainly the gtrs will be updates with some new parameters, so surely the physic will be changed too (thats what my status is :D).

[felplacerad]

Scawen said before that mainly the gtrs will be updates with some new parameters [...]
[citation needed]

Seriously, do not spread rumours. IF Scawen really said so, please provide a link. Then, and only then will I tone down the sarcasm.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

I don't rememeber that; just that he mentioned ages ago the GTR interiors were not done in time to make the last incomp patch... Surely the other cars have been treated by now as well (hoping)

"citation needed" is right LOL

[Scawen]

I can't say too much because it's things that have not yet been done, and nothing's definite until it's done. But basically I think can do some multiplayer things in a short time, that will be useful improvements for a patch W. One thing is I would like to allow more racers online (total 24) and more spectators. I have a list of a few small improvements for this quick multiplayer patch. Hotlaps would be unaffected. Then the community will have that improved multiplayer version with the same physics, while we work for some time on physics updates (not in public). Now please don't ask me more about it and don't make any requests. I'm just letting you know about this little plan because I already let slip that there would be some multiplayer incompatible changes. I don't want to discuss that here, this is a test patch thread to report issues with V2. Maybe it was a mistake to say anything at all. It may not happen. It's not very exciting either, so not worth talking about. There will not be any updated tracks or car interiors, until the physically incompatible patch. Thanks!

[wheel4hummer]

I have a suggestion.... maybe you should lock the test patch section? There are so many repeat posts and such.

[Scawen]

Yes, I will close the test patch section if anyone asks me about future versions any more. Then I'll re-open it when V3 comes out.

I hope I don't have to do that because it's really inconvenient closing and opening forums just because people don't understand that a test patch forum is a place to talk about existsing test patches, and not a place to have chats with me about the future development of LFS.

But it's my fault for replying in the first place to Andreas. Sorry about that.

[W1ldPort75]

Well i have been reading alot lately but never really felt like posting anything here . A few things that bother me is that alot of people keep bringing up stuff that was said or done before . We should all be happy with the game as it is (ofcourse there is always improvement etc etc) but personally i think this game is by far one of the best if not the best race sim game of all time . I have GTR2 , rfac gt legends Race WTCC etc etc etc (dont want to bring up sim vs sim atention) but i like LFS much much better by far then all the others . I really apreciate what Scawen and CO. are doing for the LFS community and for you Scawen three words : YOU F.....G ROCK !!! :thumb: Keep up the good work :razz:

[Scawen]

Thank you all for the feedback!

I hope most issues are fixed in the new Test Patch V3! :)

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=21424