Rfactor vs LFS

[ruckus37]

The difference has been bugging me for a while, but it is evident in the two simulators,

Rfactor = American, as just Hollywood arcade style
LFS = European more realistic

Let the flam wars begin!

Crosslink: http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=225881

[XCNuse]

well you cant really compare LFS with anything since the fact that its not even a completed game so..

rfactor is still good any tons of ways though (especially sound, the sounds in the MP demo were fascinating)

[ruckus37]

Jea the f1 sounds are awsome!

[Rumiko]

not this thread again :(

[Mbrio]

Point being?

[ruckus37]

Point being?

Mbrio take a back seat!

[L(Oo)ney]

Point being?

Point being, its been discussed plenty of times before, with every other "sim" that gets released.

They are both different games, comparing them is like comparing apples to oranges. Play one or the other, or even both, but please dont make another LFS vs XXX thread... :shy:

[ruckus37]

Watch at this...

[joshdifabio]

well you cant really compare LFS with anything since the fact that its not even a completed game so..

Yes you can.

[XCNuse]

.. not really.. considering the fact that LFS isnt done...... much less S2 isnt even done.. i think not

[ruckus37]

My basic aim is to see the response from two different sides of the scale, if you do not want to be apart of this, simply decide not to respond.

[joshdifabio]

.. not really.. considering the fact that LFS isnt done...... much less S2 isnt even done.. i think not

I don't like rfactor at all but i hate that argument that LFS fanboys always use.

[ruckus37]

We need to draw the line sum ware, lfs2 is a paid product, we are waiting for some upgrades, lfs3 is a different product, no-

[joshdifabio]

We need to draw the line sum ware, lfs2 is a paid product, we are waiting for some upgrades, lfs3 is a different product, no-

Correct, we paid for LFS, we can compare it to other sims.

[L(Oo)ney]

Your basic aim, is to start another LFS VS XXX thread. They are boring, repetative, and useless.

I can show you both response's you want, in one post.

LFS Fan - LFS is the best, all others suck.

XXX Fan - No, LFS sucks. XXX blows it away.

But you wont accept it ofcourse, cos all you want to do is start a ruckus.. LOL!

[Scawen]

Yes, you can compare S2 Alpha with anything you like :)

It's S2 Alpha, that's the name of what's available now, because it's not finished, and contains some blatant holes. But that's no reason not to compare it with something else.

You can just be happy that it will still be improved, as definite as can be if the devs don't die, etc... :D

[ruckus37]

We can begin to look at the state lfs will be in compared to rfactor in say 3 years time? Not technically (many things will change) but more online gameplay.

[Tweaker]

You can just be happy that it will still be improved, as definite as can be if the devs don't die, etc... :D
Oh noooo, don't even think of such things!!! :D

[ruckus37]

Oh noooo, don't even think of such things!!! :D

Atom..

[ColeusRattus]

Discussions like this are usually pointless, as it is a matter of taste, and not objectively measurable.

And to commetn LfS vs rFactor: I like them both, and my HD is large enough to harbour both... and even some more, like Richard Burns Rallye and GTR. And it will also see GT Legends in the near future ;)

I really don't understand why people get militant about "their" game. It's not like if I ate an apple and liked it, I will never be able to eat oranges again...

[ruckus37]

Scawen you will never die!!!! just get your kitchen finished....

[ruckus37]

Rfactor = American, as just Hollywood arcade style
LFS = European more realistic

Do you not see a symbolic resemblance?

[BigBen]

Different fonts don't have much effect on the message.

*yawn*

[ruckus37]

Ok see this is what makes LFS different to just about any offline/online game available, we can start a useless thread and have the… dev comment, please where can you find that interaction? LFS is better on just that ground>

[Scirocco]

Ok see this is what makes LFS different to just about any offline/online game available, we can start a useless thread and have the… dev comment, please where can you find that interaction? LFS is better on just that ground>
Sooooo, you think that Scawen posting in this thread has somehow improved the gameplay of LFS on your computer? :nut:

[ruckus37]

None the less yes! was never a question of gameplay, read the thread again, do not just simply respond!!

[ajp71]

I think that LFS only narrowly looses out to N2003 in the physics department, other than that nothing ISI has ever made can come close.

LFS shows a lot more promise and variety of cars (if not tracks) than N2003 does now, but doesn't have the same feel, it still looks like a computer game, less so than the ISI sims, but it still just can't beat even GPL or N3 there. Papy sims just had something about them that nothing else does.

[ruckus37]

Sorry my fault should rename this thread to the development of LFS vs rfactor

[xapexcivicx]

Or you just shouldn't have posted it to begin with ;)

[Bob Smith]

It's like you're trying to create a flame war, but we're all too grown up. :scratchch

I've yet to play rFactor, but Madman just bought it and isn't impressed (apart from shiny graphics)

[speedfreak227]

I think that LFS only narrowly looses out to N2003 in the physics department, other than that nothing ISI has ever made can come close.


forgive my ignorance, but what is N2003? oh, wait a minute, nascar 2003? if it's nascar (isn't nascar already an acronym? heheheh) that you're saying has such wonderful physics then it doesn't interest me. i NEED NEED NEED to turn right and do some hard braking from time to time.

speedfreak227

[BigBen]

forgive my ignorance, but what is N2003? oh, wait a minute, nascar 2003? if it's nascar (isn't nascar already an acronym? heheheh) that you're saying has such wonderful physics then it doesn't interest me. i NEED NEED NEED to turn right and do some hard braking from time to time.

speedfreak227

http://www.nascar4real.com/images/Infineon%201/track.jpg

:really:

[shoman24v]

Eh, out of all the racing games LFS keeps me busy.

That MUST mean something...

[speedfreak227]

http://www.nascar4real.com/images/Infineon%201/track.jpg

:really:

i know nascar does 2 or 3 races per year on non-ovals, and if i catch them on tv i enjoy them quite a lot, but when a game has only a few road courses and 25 or so "different" ovals it just can't hold my attention.

don't get me wrong, i respect the skills required to excel on ovals but personally i just find them boring...................

........HEY GUES WHAT? TURN LEFT AGAIN! hehehheheh

speedfreak227

[BigBen]

I'll file that away for when someone says "you should all be interested in NASCAR". I didn't see anyone say it in this thread though. ;D

~Ben

[Gabkicks]

I i like lfs more. I cant get the force feedback to feel right in rfactor either for my driving force pro. By right i mean something close to LFS or gt4.
LFS has a more natural feel to it. especially when driving at the limit.

why the hell does rfactor have to represent american gaming? was it made in america?

honestly the only reason i own rfactor is because of the mods.. but since none are out right now, rfactor isnt on my hard drive.

:EDIT: click my link in my signature Rucus ":EDIT:

[LRB_Aly]

I didn't try Rfactor, but i think LFS has a long time popularity cause it isn't just a game that is programmed and then the devloppers forget about it. No, it developes over the years and that is what's nice about it. So i think about long term fun no other sim can compete with LFS.

[ysu]

I put both proggy on my HDD and they just don't want to fight it out :shrug:
...so it's rF & LFS not rF vs LFS here :D

[KiDCoDEa]

http://googlebattle.com/index.php?domain=lfs&domain2=rfactor&submit=Go%21

http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=lfs&word2=rfactor

BRAWL

[L(Oo)ney]

http://googlebattle.com/index.php?domain=lfs&domain2=rfactor&submit=Go%21

http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=lfs&word2=rfactor

BRAWL

LMFAO! :thumb:

[mrodgers]

speedfreak227, a few years ago, Papyrus Nascar Racing and GPL were the only racing "SIMS" available for us on the PC. They were truely and still are fabulous. NR2003 had such a strong following from hardcore sim fans that there are many many mods for it creating road course racing. The one that comes to mind is the TPTCC (The Pits Touring Car Championship) mod from the US Pits. It's not just using road course tracks, but modding the physics and the car bodies to touring cars. I've never tried it as I only had a PC capable of running NR2003 for 3 months before trying LFS and I haven't loaded anything else since. Search for "The US Pits", TPTCC, or check the NR2003 section at RSC for it. NR2003 is the only game/sim that comes close to LFS.

[speedfreak227]

MRODGERS, i used to play grand prix legends. it was great but a bit too realistic and none of my freinds could handle it.

when i bought the ORIGINAL logitech force feedback wheel it came with a pretty good sim racer. i don't remember the exact name........GT racing perhaps, no, that's not it........ damn......... it had real tracks and real cars. i think there were 3 levels of cars to progress through. though i don't rememebr how much set up you could do to the car.

i remember people at the kart track talking about various nascar versions but i just can't bring myself to play em. i haven't even been on the oval in LFS.

well, as far as i'm concerned, LFS rules. the physics are awesome, the tracks are geat fun, and there's a decent selection of cars. the sounds could use some work but i can live without that.

can't wait till the shop figures out what's wrong with my computer so i can get back online and racing again.

speedfreak227

[BigBen]

when i bought the ORIGINAL logitech force feedback wheel it came with a pretty good sim racer. i don't remember the exact name........GT racing perhaps, no, that's not it........ damn......... it had real tracks and real cars. i think there were 3 levels of cars to progress through. though i don't rememebr how much set up you could do to the car.

Sports Car GT (SCGT) I bet.

http://www.elspa.ru/Games/SCGT.JPG


ISI has produced a long line of modable sims that started with SCGT (although it's physics aren't exactly hard core sim) and currently ends at rFactor.

~Ben

[speedfreak227]

yup, sports car gt is the one. i just came back to edit my post but you beat me to it.

it was good for its time.

speedfreak227

[tailing]

I think the thread starter has a certain point, when rFactor first came out and I saw some screenshots of it I immediately knew it was a game developed in America. Just something about the hud and the flashy nature of the graphics I think.
I think there's something to be said for LFS being developed by Europeans, not to intimate that that makes it superior but just that it brings a certain feel to the game. For one thing I'm not sure we'd have a car like the GTi if it were developed by Americans and even though I don't particularly like it I know many many people love it.

btw apples and oranges can be compared quite easily, it's just a matter of whether it achieves anything ;)

[askoff]

Can we just try to turn this thread more serious level of discussion? I'm very interested in rFactor also, but not yet had change to try it. What I have gathered from these topics, rFactor has better sounds and graphics. I've also heard that RWD cars are less over steering.
I realy like to see more opinnions on these matters and hope that people could stop arguing about others opinnions.

[deggis]

http://thepits.us/gallery/rFactor-Screenshots

Maybe I'll have to think again about purchasing rCraptor. :really:

[spoop]

Hey, hey, LFS gets help from Linux From Scratch on google battle!

[ajp71]

forgive my ignorance, but what is N2003? oh, wait a minute, nascar 2003? if it's nascar (isn't nascar already an acronym? heheheh) that you're saying has such wonderful physics then it doesn't interest me. i NEED NEED NEED to turn right and do some hard braking from time to time.

speedfreak227

Only actually touched two of the ovals.

By Nascar 2003 I was including all the mods including the Ferrari 330s and GTP, seeing as they all use the same physics engine. Actually the Nascar Trucks make very well balanced controlable cars for road courses.

The GTP mod has a new level of intensity only felt in GPL and maybe the FO8, there is no comparison to SCGT. N2003 is the only sim I get any satisfaction out of testing offline.

As you can see there are a few road courses to race: http://www.simracingconnection.com/nascar/n2k3road.shtml

[X-Ter]

Why compare? Why compare only two sims? Why not play more than one sim? Why always these kind of topics that generally don't lead anywhere? Why do I bother to type this? Well as long as I'm here, I might as well go on :)
These are the simes I drive or have driven.

SportsCar GT
GrandPrixLegends
Nascar Heat
F1C 99-02
Nascar Racing 2003
Live For Speed
rFactor

Each of those has it's own ups and downs and none of them cover everything that I value in a racing sim. If I had to chose only one, LFS would be the obvious choice, but I'm glad I don't have to.
Some of them I've stopped driving because of issues that has not been solved or improved upon.

NR2003... This one has virtually killed a gfx card for me. And nearly took another one out a few weeks later. Long discussions with all kinds of people and no one managed to figure out why or managed to solve the problem. All I got out of it was an empty wallet. I don't play it any more.

F1C... You can say what you want, but this one could have been great if the multiplayer function had been better and the graphics performance had been better than average at best. Mod's for this sim is what kept it alive. I don't play it any more.

rFactor... You talk about LFS not being finished, and so we can not compare it with rFactor. Well in my not so humble opinion, rFactor is far from finished. It lacks a lot of stuff that really should be in a professional sim from day one. If this sim had been relesed like this and not been open to modders, I would probably have gotten a refund after about an hour or so.

GPL... I don't drive it as much as I used to, but it's still on my harddrive. And when ever I feel the need to focus on something other than real life for a while, I start it up. Because, let's face it. If you don't focus when you drive in this sim, you're no longer on the track.

SCGT... This is the one that never will die. I stoped counting available cars when they hit 1000, and I've lost count on tracks a long time ago. An educated guess would be somewhere between 400 and 700 availble tracks made. It has a lousy multiplayer code, but the AI cars can (with a little editing) be really tough. Some of the tracks has better AI than ever was seen in F1C. This one will never leave my harddrive.

Nascar Heat... If you find a better multiplayer code in the universe, please tell me. This one is second to none when it comes to online racing. If you think that the Papy sims have cood multiplayer, you're in for a treat if you try this one. For those that don't like the "turn left, go fast" kind of racing, there is ton's of roadcourse mods for it. The only thing this sim lack is that truckload of roadcourses. Only about 70 roadcourses availble for it, but all the classics are there avialable. Try it, you'll like it :)

LFS... This is the crown jewel in my collection of sims, and it's not even finished yet. If I could wish for only one thing, it would be that ability to create cars and tracks for it. But for now, I'm more than happy with what's in there. Keep up the Good Work Gentlemen :D

Why drive only one sim, and why fight over witch one is best? Just drive them and make up your list of favourites like I have. If the sim you drive doesn't make you feel good, stop driving it and remove it from the harddrive. Simple as that.

[obzelite]

you forgot viper racing.

an under estimated classic as well.

[X-Ter]

oups... sorry about that. I own that to actually (got it in a software bundle), but never had the chance to race it online.

[FlintFredstone]

Comparing Rfactor to LFS, well..


One side Rfactor has 4 more letters than LFS.

The other side is LFS can have two more words than Rfactor.

This is the best factual comparison as of this moment.

TroyMclure

[Vendetta]

After playing the MP demo of Rfactor, LFS is ALOT better than Rfactor...what kind of name is rfactor anyway?

[Scawen]

What is it with these words, where the capital letter is the second character?

rFactor
dEmporium
iRacing
iPod

:scratchch Very confusing, the capital letter should be the first letter of the name! :D

[B2B@300]

What is it with these words, where the capital letter is the second character?

rFactor
dEmporium
iRacing
iPod

:scratchch Very confusing, the capital letter should be the first letter of the name! :D

LOL Good too see you are relaxed and refreshed! :D enjoy your break :smileypul

[Gabkicks]

What is it with these words, where the capital letter is the second character?

rFactor
dEmporium
iRacing
iPod

:scratchch Very confusing, the capital letter should be the first letter of the name! :D
probably some marketing technique to get us to pay more attention to the word.

[GP4Flo]

Hey, hey, LFS gets help from Linux From Scratch on google battle!
Not if you enter "Live for Speed" vs. "rFactor", it's still better ;)


Btw, Scawen still has to work a bit to beat Geoff Crammond :D

Edit: I just love these Googlefights... although Vic's "Feel the Silence" is a bit weak compared to Depeche Mode's "Enjoy the Silence". :tilt:

[Rolle]

:D

Why drive only one sim, and why fight over witch one is best? Just drive them and make up your list of favourites like I have. If the sim you drive doesn't make you feel good, stop driving it and remove it from the harddrive. Simple as that.


That is exactly what we do in the Röugh Mätes team. :)

We are currently running a Multisimulator Racing League,
with races in LFS, GTR, NR2003, F1C and rF...
All in one league

We just can't decide on which we like the most :)

we are here: www.rm8s.net (http://www.rm8s.net)

[ajp71]

http://www.googlebattle.com/index.php?domain=Fir%24t&domain2=iRacing&submit=Go%21

[Doorman]

What is it with these words, where the capital letter is the second character?

rFactor
dEmporium
iRacing
iPod

:scratchch Very confusing, the capital letter should be the first letter of the name! :D
You're making a fundamental mistake here. You're confusing computer 'stylee' with English. Now do you see why you're confused? Don't worry though, it's an easy mistake to make. :smileypul

[X-Ter]

And it doesn't matter how many times they use the name iRacing. For me it's still the greedy buggers at Fir$t and their sad way of threating the community. Never in my life I will buy anything from them. Never...

[xaotik]

The difference has been bugging me for a while, but it is evident in the two simulators,

Rfactor = American, as just Hollywood arcade style
LFS = European more realistic

Let the flam wars begin!


For starters, let's take the "let the flame wars begin" comment as a joke of sorts...

I played rFactor recently and I can't say it's "just Holywood arcade style", whatever that means. Granted the cars at first feel awkward - but if you get to upgrading any of them to the full blown "racing version" then they are much better and predictable.

Graphics-wise:
Things I liked in it include the vibrations of the camera when going at a high speed and the day-to-night transition. Things I didn't quite like include the high system specs you must have to actually get all the graphics detail the game has to offer - racing with even 10 cars at night time managed to get me as low as 10fps, so unfortunately there goes the second feature I liked out of the window. And this was using DirectX 7 rendering with all sorts of tweaking in the config files to reduce the number of headlights visible, etc.

LFS on the other hand works smooth at 1280x1024x32. Track details that I like alot include the animated banners and trees (something I didn't notice in rFactor, even at full track detail) which helps figuring out the direction wind is blowing from and just plainly makes things more alive.

Cars:
The cars I've seen so far, and I think I've seen them all in rFactor are not very impressive, infact I utterly dislike the cockpit of one of them (the Hammer). The other two GT cars, the Z and Howston seem to share the same cockpit. Externally I think I only kinda liked the racing version of the Z and the Howston, the Hammer is just too tall and thin looking, it's weird. I haven't touched the open-wheelers.

In LFS you get a much bigger variety right from the start and the designs are more visually appealing (to me).

Sound:
Despite the fact that rFactor appears to have richer sound, it still manages to disorientate me, especially with the external sounds of other cars - they sound rather fake (to me) and sometimes the positioning is off. The "crash" sound is rather funny, as it always feels like you've opened a cupboard and all the crockery came tumbling down - it's only one sample and it just changes in volume depending on impact force (which is an added factor to make you not to crash ofcourse ["please don't play that sound again!"]). I didn't seem to notice a "scraping" sound anywhere, which is useful in tight pack racing (3 or 4 abreast) because many times I didn't understand that some opponent was already touching my car's side approaching a turn and I'd end up cutting him off rather violently. The tyre scrubbing sounds are much the same, there's a specific sample which is "on the edge" and it don't really vary in volume or pitch depending on anything, it always sounds the same (to me).

LFS at first doesn't seem to have so much to hear. However, it's all sublimely co-ordinated to give you feedback. Approach a wall and you hear the reverberation, tyre scrubbing sounds progress and scraping on a stack of tyres makes a different sound to bumping a guardrail or contacting another car.

Damage modelling:
In rFactor, things fly off and things get bent in a pre-scripted fashion. Your rear wing will get clipped off from someone hitting you in the rear even though his nose is much lower than where the wing actually is - that's rather annoying and it can frequently happen if you're racing against slightly clumsy people or AI - and it can happen at varying velocities, I've seen a car come out intact from a 150+ km/h slam while another one getting bumped from other cars in a pack lose spoilers, wings and even a bonnet. You can damage your brakes from overheating them (the racing brakes need to reach nominal temperature to work properly), you can also damage your engine and you can get some mechanical failures (they seem random). I didn't notice any audio feedback from engine problems, you just have to keep an eye on the temps I suppose if you think there's something amiss. I have no idea how well implemented the tyre modelling is, there is a display of tyre temp (out, mid and inner surface) but that's not as "live" as LFS's. Also, I didn't notice any effect on the handling of the car from passing through a sandtrap or running over grass, the tyres appeared to be clean immediately after that.

In LFS, the damage modelling is not complete, however the procedural crumpling of the car is more appealing and hitting a kerb violently can affect your suspension (not something I noticed in rFactor) or blow a tyre and tyres can get dirty. Also the visual feedback from the tyre status display is much more "live".

Random bits:
Two things that rFactor outshines LFS in are the replay system (which ihas possibly not even been touched in LFS since S1) - you get all the controls that you'd expect (rewind for example) - and the AI (which isn't finished in S2). In rFactor you can set the aggression level of the AI which can help avoiding demolition derbies sometimes (although at too low levels you get chicken AI that just pulls over and brakes so you can pass) and the AI in rFactor will pit in for repair, refueling, tyres etc and they seem to suffer from the same mechanical failures that you do.

For my taste, the user interface of rFactor is pretty clunky/cluttered, especially in the garage, compared to LFS's and it doesn't have the neat "live" features like forces, suspension-view, etc that LFS has - it's just a static screen full of widgets.

Another thing that I think is noteworthy is that the day-night transitions in rFactor naturally affect the shadows in parts of the track, etc That can confuse you (realistically) regarding your braking/turn-in points and such. However, if you turn down the shadow detail they are not rendered any longer and in my opinion can be sort of like cheating in online races against people who keep such effects on.

Apparently the major feature of rFactor that is being sold is the "modability". Which is a nice concept and I'm sure there will be tons of nice mods out there eventually, but atleast they should provide some starter content that's more worthwhile and worth the money you pay. In my opinion (and to my taste) S2's base content is just much richer as it stands.

And in case you missed it, all of the above is just my opinion.

[deggis]

What is it with these words, where the capital letter is the second character?

rFactor
dEmporium
iRacing
iPod

:scratchch Very confusing, the capital letter should be the first letter of the name! :D
What is it with these names, where the name always contains word "speed"?

Need For Speed
Live For Speed

:D

[mrfell]

Will rFactor be staying on your hard drive, for some thing different to play for a change?

[CharlieP]

really Flawed attempt, creating terrible online racing j/k ;)

I can't even run this game, but very happy with LFS so not too bothered :)

IMO It's not the different features that are important, it's the feeling you get from online races and in LFS that feeling is superb!

[mrodgers]

Is there a demo of rFactor? I didn't think there was. I won't pay for something that I don't know whether it will run on my machine or not. I'd love to try it, but I highly doubt it will run. That's what I love about LFS, I can run it!! :thumb:

[KiDCoDEa]

well, there's a student version floating around... ;)

[Hallen]

I really don't understand the mentality that Arcade Syle=American. Are you saying that Europeans don't play arcade style games? Are you saying that Europeans don't produce arcade style games? Are you saying that if it is unrealistic that it must be American and not European? Are you saying that only Europeans appreciate function over form?

Just because it may have more flash than substance does not equate with an entire country. It equates to your opinion of a particular object.

And if you are implying that the US has no "real" racing, then you really aught to give it a second look. NASCAR is NASCAR and the tracks may be boring, and there may be a lot of hype, but it is still cars going 200mph trying to be the first to cross a line. And no, not every American race fan is a NASCAR fan.
The ALMS is a great series. Le Mans style racing, using Le Mans rules and regulations. Geee, what happened at this year's Le Mans 24 Hr? A whole bunch of US ALMS teams won, and they took the Outright win too. In a European Audi R8 with a mix of drivers from around the world. What a wonderful thing.

Yes, I know the image that the US can project. Las Vegas/Hollywood style gauche flamboyant overkill. But please don't project that image onto all of America, it ain't like that. There are some people here that love good road racing, who appreciate nimble little cars like the BMW 2002, who love F1, and who do know the difference between flash and function.

[Racer Y]

For starters, let's take the "let the flame wars begin" comment as a joke of sorts...

I played rFactor recently and I can't say it's "just Holywood arcade style", whatever that means. Granted the cars at first feel awkward - but if you get to upgrading any of them to the full blown "racing version" then they are much better and predictable.

Graphics-wise:
Things I liked in it include the vibrations of the camera when going at a high speed and the day-to-night transition. Things I didn't quite like include the high system specs you must have to actually get all the graphics detail the game has to offer - racing with even 10 cars at night time managed to get me as low as 10fps, so unfortunately there goes the second feature I liked out of the window. And this was using DirectX 7 rendering with all sorts of tweaking in the config files to reduce the number of headlights visible, etc.

LFS on the other hand works smooth at 1280x1024x32. Track details that I like alot include the animated banners and trees (something I didn't notice in rFactor, even at full track detail) which helps figuring out the direction wind is blowing from and just plainly makes things more alive.

Cars:
The cars I've seen so far, and I think I've seen them all in rFactor are not very impressive, infact I utterly dislike the cockpit of one of them (the Hammer). The other two GT cars, the Z and Howston seem to share the same cockpit. Externally I think I only kinda liked the racing version of the Z and the Howston, the Hammer is just too tall and thin looking, it's weird. I haven't touched the open-wheelers.

In LFS you get a much bigger variety right from the start and the designs are more visually appealing (to me).

Sound:
Despite the fact that rFactor appears to have richer sound, it still manages to disorientate me, especially with the external sounds of other cars - they sound rather fake (to me) and sometimes the positioning is off. The "crash" sound is rather funny, as it always feels like you've opened a cupboard and all the crockery came tumbling down - it's only one sample and it just changes in volume depending on impact force (which is an added factor to make you not to crash ofcourse ["please don't play that sound again!"]). I didn't seem to notice a "scraping" sound anywhere, which is useful in tight pack racing (3 or 4 abreast) because many times I didn't understand that some opponent was already touching my car's side approaching a turn and I'd end up cutting him off rather violently. The tyre scrubbing sounds are much the same, there's a specific sample which is "on the edge" and it don't really vary in volume or pitch depending on anything, it always sounds the same (to me).

LFS at first doesn't seem to have so much to hear. However, it's all sublimely co-ordinated to give you feedback. Approach a wall and you hear the reverberation, tyre scrubbing sounds progress and scraping on a stack of tyres makes a different sound to bumping a guardrail or contacting another car.

Damage modelling:
In rFactor, things fly off and things get bent in a pre-scripted fashion. Your rear wing will get clipped off from someone hitting you in the rear even though his nose is much lower than where the wing actually is - that's rather annoying and it can frequently happen if you're racing against slightly clumsy people or AI - and it can happen at varying velocities, I've seen a car come out intact from a 150+ km/h slam while another one getting bumped from other cars in a pack lose spoilers, wings and even a bonnet. You can damage your brakes from overheating them (the racing brakes need to reach nominal temperature to work properly), you can also damage your engine and you can get some mechanical failures (they seem random). I didn't notice any audio feedback from engine problems, you just have to keep an eye on the temps I suppose if you think there's something amiss. I have no idea how well implemented the tyre modelling is, there is a display of tyre temp (out, mid and inner surface) but that's not as "live" as LFS's. Also, I didn't notice any effect on the handling of the car from passing through a sandtrap or running over grass, the tyres appeared to be clean immediately after that.

In LFS, the damage modelling is not complete, however the procedural crumpling of the car is more appealing and hitting a kerb violently can affect your suspension (not something I noticed in rFactor) or blow a tyre and tyres can get dirty. Also the visual feedback from the tyre status display is much more "live".

Random bits:
Two things that rFactor outshines LFS in are the replay system (which ihas possibly not even been touched in LFS since S1) - you get all the controls that you'd expect (rewind for example) - and the AI (which isn't finished in S2). In rFactor you can set the aggression level of the AI which can help avoiding demolition derbies sometimes (although at too low levels you get chicken AI that just pulls over and brakes so you can pass) and the AI in rFactor will pit in for repair, refueling, tyres etc and they seem to suffer from the same mechanical failures that you do.

For my taste, the user interface of rFactor is pretty clunky/cluttered, especially in the garage, compared to LFS's and it doesn't have the neat "live" features like forces, suspension-view, etc that LFS has - it's just a static screen full of widgets.

Another thing that I think is noteworthy is that the day-night transitions in rFactor naturally affect the shadows in parts of the track, etc That can confuse you (realistically) regarding your braking/turn-in points and such. However, if you turn down the shadow detail they are not rendered any longer and in my opinion can be sort of like cheating in online races against people who keep such effects on.

Apparently the major feature of rFactor that is being sold is the "modability". Which is a nice concept and I'm sure there will be tons of nice mods out there eventually, but atleast they should provide some starter content that's more worthwhile and worth the money you pay. In my opinion (and to my taste) S2's base content is just much richer as it stands.

And in case you missed it, all of the above is just my opinion.

Thank you. A decent and honest observation and comparison.
I like the feature of the moving shadows that you mentioned.
Uh. the game looks like it only has one type of racing. is that true?
If that's so. that's pretty lame compared with the variety you get with a game that's only 45% finished.

Another thing you mentioned was the interface. I prefer the no nonense, get to the point style that LFS has. CLunky confusing interfaces put me off.

I dunno, going by your take, I'd say the game may be worth it for some, but for me. I'm
waiting for the release of The Warriors for the PS2 - THAT looks like a cool game

[skiingman]

And if you are implying that the US has no "real" racing, then you really aught[sic] to give it a second look.

...err...lets not give them more ammo.

NASCAR is NASCAR and the tracks may be boring, and there may be a lot of hype, but it is still cars going 200mph trying to be the first to cross a line.

Nope, its not. If it were "racing" about crossing the line first, there would not be such Pro Wrestling style moves as "free pass" and "green white checker". Its a spectator sport. Pro Racing, if you will. WWE and NASCAR are very similar in both conception and fanbase.

And no, not every American race fan is a NASCAR fan.

Now you're talking about me.

Yes, I know the image that the US can project. Las Vegas/Hollywood style gauche flamboyant overkill. But please don't project that image onto all of America, it ain't like that.

But it is. NASCAR is the 800 pound gorilla, and although Hollywood isn't bad I think WWE is a better comparison, as WWE and NASCAR both lack class.

Remember Speedvision? Man, it kicked some ass. Guess what killed it?

There are some people here that love good road racing, who appreciate nimble little cars like the BMW 2002, who love F1, and who do know the difference between flash and function.
Yeah, and there are some people in France that love NASCAR.

I think you are kidding yourself to believe real road racing has a long term chance in America. Series like ALMS tend to come and go every 10 or 15 years. Outside of wealthy niche activities like club/sportscar racing, real racing in America isn't going to be prosperous. Real, honest, fair competition just isn't that attractive to most Americans.

[xaotik]

Uh. the game looks like it only has one type of racing. is that true?

It has GT type cars and open-wheel racers - you choose your division when you first create a profile, it's not like in LFS where all cars are available in one screen. You start off owning either 3 stock tin-tops (with one more to buy later on when you get credits) or one training open-wheeler that looks like an F3 I guess (with an F1-alike to buy later on).

The GT cars have the usual subdivisions which are based on how you've configured your car (starting from a stock model of each car all up to the racing edition of it) - you have to buy parts for it using credits earned in races (you can also lose credits in races by doing silly things like going the wrong way on track for too long, exiting pits with red lights, etc - you won't lose credits if you damage your car though).

[L(Oo)ney]

well, there's a student version floating around... ;)

:D

hehe, thats really funny. :thumb:

[Cue-Ball]

I think you are kidding yourself to believe real road racing has a long term chance in America. Series like ALMS tend to come and go every 10 or 15 years. Outside of wealthy niche activities like club/sportscar racing, real racing in America isn't going to be prosperous. Real, honest, fair competition just isn't that attractive to most Americans.
Just what do you consider "real racing" to be? SCCA, Trans Am, etc. have been around for a long, long time and don't show any sign of stopping. Plus there are plenty of vintage road racing events, track days, driving schools, etc. I'd say that there is PLENTY of interest in road racing in the US. NASCAR might be at the forefront because of it's huge exposure and revenue, but road racing in the US is far from dead.

[Hallen]

...Nope, its not. If it were "racing" about crossing the line first, there would not be such Pro Wrestling style moves as "free pass" and "green white checker". Its a spectator sport. Pro Racing, if you will. WWE and NASCAR are very similar in both conception and fanbase.

Fair enough. I am not a NASCAR fan either. I do watch it from time to time because it is the ONLY racing on the tube. But, don't confuse rules with lack of competition. Rules have always been there. Lets look at road racing. If a full course caution comes out with a pace car, and the P1 leader just passed you, but not the car in your class that you were only a second behind, guess what, you just lost a lap to that other car. If it happens the other way around, you gain a lap. The "free pass" in NASCAR was put in place after a safety rule change eliminated the chance of gaining laps back after one of their very frequent crashes. Even though it is still hype, and there is a lot to hate about NASCAR, it is still racing. But, I do understand your point, and I am very close to agreeing with you 100%. The most I can say now is that it is certainly dummied down racing to attract the widest possible fan base. I feel the same way about "Pro" Basketball.
Yes, road racing in the US is fragile. Series do come and then fade away. The problem has always been exposure. SPEED is the NASCAR channel, but they at least do show a lot of the ALMS races, the SWC races, Grand Am and of course the NASCAR owned Rolex GP series (which is road racing even though they use ugly spec cars). This is more exposure for road racing than ever before. I think the biggest shame is that a lot of cable companies put SPEED in with a extra-cost add on package along with a bunch of channels few racing fans want.

[Gabkicks]

it seems popular nowadays in europe to hate america.:shrug:

[KiDCoDEa]

it seems popular nowadays in europe to hate america.:shrug:

i wonder why... :)
http://www.blennus.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=718&Itemid=

and btw, its not just in europe.
generally speaking the usa has no culture imports and basically just exports.
selfsuficience is the worse caracteristic that a culture can have. especially when theres a neocon agenda to propagate themselves everywhere, enforcing with ignorance and by any means, a certain colonialistic game, most really developed nations stoped playing 500 or 400 years ago.
Many good things in usa and some really bright people, but totally constrained by the majority that sports the true nature on which that country stands on...

[skiingman]

I think the biggest shame is that a lot of cable companies put SPEED in with a extra-cost add on package along with a bunch of channels few racing fans want.
Ours was like that for a long while.

Recently, both Comcast and Adelphia have added it to basic cable. I don't know if Time Warner has yet. Sucks that you get no choice with the cable companies.

That link is awful. Man. Please note we aren't all that clueless, lol.

[Gabkicks]

i wonder why...
http://www.blennus.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=718&Itemid=

and btw, its not just in europe.
generally speaking the usa has no culture imports and basically just exports.
selfsuficience is the worse caracteristic that a culture can have. especially when theres a neocon agenda to propagate themselves everywhere, enforcing with ignorance and by any means, a certain colonialistic game, most really developed nations stoped playing 500 or 400 years ago.
Many good things in usa and some really bright people, but totally constrained by the majority that sports the true nature on which that country stands on...

soomeone just posted that link on another thread. lol :tilt:
the masses are stupid but the same can be said for other countries.

[FunkedUp]

I really don't understand the mentality that Arcade Syle=American.

I think his analogy was referring strictly to film styles. Think "Pearl Harbor" vs. "Dark Blue World". No need to get some Neocon-Bushite vs. Eurotrash-Commie war going here. :)

The hardcore race sim genre was invented here in the U.S.A. after all!

[mrodgers]

I have to comment on the Nascar bashing that I see constantly here on the forum. I've been a Nascar fan for quite some time (go ahead and bash me, make fun of me, whatever). I am not an F1 fan at all. I read all the time Nascar being bashed because it is not real racing. Nascar is real racing. Nascar drivers are real racers. It is Nascar the "business company" that is not for real. They are the ones screwing up Nascar as a good racing series. In Nascar, the drivers are competing on a track to cross the line finishing first to win. That is racing. They drive 150, 160, 180, close to 200 mph for 400 or 500 miles door to door trying to get to the finish first. The concept of Nascar racing is excellent. There are no computers half driving the cars for them. They are 800 hp V8's with carburated engines, no computers there. No traction control. No anti-lock brakes, no help for anything but the mechanical setup of the car. Then Nascar the "business company" steps up and wants more coverage, more widespread fanbase, more money. They make it less of a racing series than a drama series. The "lucky dog" as they call it (getting an auto lap back under caution), making 3 totally different manufacture of cars identical, the green/white/checker, the chase to the cup, all this to draw in more fans. They (the "business" Nascar) wants to beat American football. That is what this is all about. Take all this away and what do you have, 43 race car drivers driving their cars to the limit for 500 miles trying to cross the finish line first. The heart of Nascar is still there. It is in the drivers driving their mechanical machines, without any aids, to the limit to win. That is what it is all about. Unfortunately, the "upper management" of Nascar is ruining it for the sport and making it a spectacle. My heart lies inside the cars with the drivers taking those machines to the limit. But Nascar the "business" is slowly taking a toll on my patience to watch them. But to say that Nascar is not real racing is wrong. Just because it's on an oval and they don't turn left? Racing doesn't mean turning right and left. It doesn't mean turning only left. It doesn't mean driving only straight. It means 2 or more competing to finish first.

If you really want to talk about REAL racing, I'll tell you where it is. It is out at the local dirt tracks where guys get home from their job on Friday and work on their car in the driveway. They load it up on the trailer and head to the local dirt track with the others. They work on their cars at the track on Saturday with their family and friends, then 7:00 rolls around and they head out on a freshly watered track to pound it out door to door. No Engineers, no crew chiefs, no mechanics department, no engine builders, no pitstops. Just racing.

[Hallen]

hehehe, well, we sure managed to steal this thread. :Looking_a

and no, I am not a neocon-bushite (very creative btw:scratchch ), but I probably am wrapped too tight.:bluegrab: :D

[Racer Y]

I have to comment on the Nascar bashing that I see constantly here on the forum. I've been a Nascar fan for quite some time (go ahead and bash me, make fun of me, whatever). I am not an F1 fan at all. I read all the time Nascar being bashed because it is not real racing. Nascar is real racing. Nascar drivers are real racers. It is Nascar the "business company" that is not for real. They are the ones screwing up Nascar as a good racing series. In Nascar, the drivers are competing on a track to cross the line finishing first to win. That is racing. They drive 150, 160, 180, close to 200 mph for 400 or 500 miles door to door trying to get to the finish first. The concept of Nascar racing is excellent. There are no computers half driving the cars for them. They are 800 hp V8's with carburated engines, no computers there. No traction control. No anti-lock brakes, no help for anything but the mechanical setup of the car. Then Nascar the "business company" steps up and wants more coverage, more widespread fanbase, more money. They make it less of a racing series than a drama series. The "lucky dog" as they call it (getting an auto lap back under caution), making 3 totally different manufacture of cars identical, the green/white/checker, the chase to the cup, all this to draw in more fans. They (the "business" Nascar) wants to beat American football. That is what this is all about. Take all this away and what do you have, 43 race car drivers driving their cars to the limit for 500 miles trying to cross the finish line first. The heart of Nascar is still there. It is in the drivers driving their mechanical machines, without any aids, to the limit to win. That is what it is all about. Unfortunately, the "upper management" of Nascar is ruining it for the sport and making it a spectacle. My heart lies inside the cars with the drivers taking those machines to the limit. But Nascar the "business" is slowly taking a toll on my patience to watch them. But to say that Nascar is not real racing is wrong. Just because it's on an oval and they don't turn left? Racing doesn't mean turning right and left. It doesn't mean turning only left. It doesn't mean driving only straight. It means 2 or more competing to finish first.

If you really want to talk about REAL racing, I'll tell you where it is. It is out at the local dirt tracks where guys get home from their job on Friday and work on their car in the driveway. They load it up on the trailer and head to the local dirt track with the others. They work on their cars at the track on Saturday with their family and friends, then 7:00 rolls around and they head out on a freshly watered track to pound it out door to door. No Engineers, no crew chiefs, no mechanics department, no engine builders, no pitstops. Just racing.

I had to play the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" when I read this. It was very moving. It brought a tear to my eye and made me proud to be a Texan - oops American.

I personally don't like NASCAR, but what you've said is pretty much right. It is very much real racing.

LOL I think they could probably get the ratings away from the NFL if they had
a Janet Jackson style incident involving Jessica Simpson singing the national Anthem at Daytona.

And besides, Americans have refined racing to it's purest form with Drag racing. no Drafting, no trail braking, no pit strategy. Just two drivers seeing which one is faster.

I used to get a little riled with the Anti American sentiment that I hear from time to time,
but I just don't give a rat's ass anymore. Most of those ppl are just repeating what they've been told or what they heard.
Oh and I'm still not convinced that F-1 ain't rigged.

Ok... back to the topic. I only raced two races today. they were both with the road cars (FZ, the LX-6 and RAC). One was on Wsthill the anther was
aston National. THe westhill track had 15min worth a qualifying and 5(?) laps. the national race had 12 laps. I use a wheel to play LFS. after each of these races, I was physically affected, My arms were tense and blood veins were showing thru on my forearms. I felt like I really did something besides just
putting off much needed house work playing video games :)

Does R factor do THAT?

Ok Back off topic... I think I know why road racing and the other types haven't fared so well in the US. It's because no matter where you sit, you can't see the whole track. Think about it. How many people would be into baseball if they could only see first base? We like to be on the fifty yard line, we like to be behind the plate,
we like to be Center court. we like to be ringside..... you just don't have that with the racing forms. When they had the Texaco Gran Prix here in Houston, one the biggest complaints from people was they only got to see like a four block portion of the course.

Ok once more back to the topic. Uh Rfactor has open and closed wheel racing cars? Eh, I'm not impressed. LFS has street courses, race tracks, rally tracks, a drag strip and something totally original, a parking lot!

[xaotik]

Does R factor do THAT?

Hmmm... yes, actually. It's a racing game and the I-want-to-be-first thrill is there where it should be like with all racing games I'd think. Don't know if it will give your arms a thorough work-out or help you build six-pack abs, but it will get you hooked if you get involved in some decent, proper racing (which, to my experience, mostly has to do with who you race against more so than what you are racing).

[dontsimon]

Ha ha. That vid is hilariously frighteneing, Australia is in real trouble if / when the chimp-in-chief decides to attack Iran, France or Korea.

[tailing]

Hehe, that's from a show here called CNNNN, very funny :)

[Don Merino]

I had to play the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" when I read this.

ROFL:rofl:


BTW..

Some of you talked about owning and playing more than one racing sim at the same time..
Now, I'm really lazy, I hardly ever do anything for university besides a bit of studying for some of the tests (usually one or 2 days before they are held), and I still don't feel I'd have enough time to play two racing sims.
Working on my lap times in LFS already costs me more time than a anyone 10 months away from his or her state exams should spend on games.
After all, there are other things in my life besides LFS that need attention, e.g. an electric guitar and a '74 Harley. (I don't even have a girlfriend atm)

I suppose some of you people have jobs and families - how the hell would you manage to seriously participate in 2 different online racing communities?

[deggis]

well, there's a student version floating around... ;)
I think rFactor is quite cheap for a game (when comparing to average game prizes) and you are talking about student version? I think too that the devs are cowards because they haven't released an up-to-date demo but still...

[vrooom]

Hmmm other pointless tread but here is my £0.02

I played all sim in my life starting with Nascar 1 Oh man 320x240 pixeled non 3d card gfx days.

All Driving sim will push each other to be better product than before.
I enjoy LFS most beacuse of Force feedback. it's feel right.

rFactor is nice but is in completly different leagues behind to LFS.
I only bought it because of moddable game and it's better than having 1 sim on my hdd when you are not in mood to play LFS.

I had to turn off the force feedback on Rfactor beacuse it doesnt feel right compared to LFS.

rfactor will kick ass if there is correct 'feel' on force feedback.
I understand the force feedback 'feel' is highly opinioned and subjective but dont go there.

In rFactor,, when you spin..... you cannot recover, even with aids on...
in LFS, you can..... without aids!! THat why it's so specials. As you feel you are connected to LFS Cars.

Just conisder yourselfs lucky, those Consoles(xbox,ps2,etc) dont have proper moddable simulator...... So I am grateful for many game simulator that came out to pc and they are alway improving. oh well JUst like I said my £0.02

[ColeusRattus]

I suppose some of you people have jobs and families - how the hell would you manage to seriously participate in 2 different online racing communities?

It depends on the degree of "professionalism" you want to achive. As for me, I can enjoy both (or even more) without the need to get anywhere near the world records.

[nuggetz]

I have to be honest. All I've been able to play lately is rFactor. I used to play LFS all the time. Since I'm mostly an offline racer, AI is important to me. I'm not going to compare AI because both have their flaws. rF's AI seems a little spooky at times. I've noticed it try to block me which is good if you're protecting your line, but not so good if you're just being an ass and just preventing the faster driver behind you from passing.

I play rF mostly in DX8 mode so the graphics are pretty much the same as LFS although the shadows and lighting are better implemented in rF.

The main reason I haven't been able to stick with another sim since rF launched is the due to the awesome feedback I get from my DFP wheel. Even GTR doesn't feel right after you've driven dozens of laps in rF. IMO, it's just that good. You can see patches in the tarmac and you feel the bumps realistically when you decided to take a turn and you car just happens to be over that part of the road. Force feedback is one of the most important aspects of a sim that keeps me faithful to it. LFS's FF was great but now seems to feel a little flat in comparison.

Physics wise, I've always been a big fan of LFS. Its pure joy watching a replay of the slower cars with soft suspension taking corners. rF seems to have this level of detail with regards to weight transfers etc. I believe LFS's tire model is much more advanced but still needs to be dialed in.

Anyway, unless there's a shortage of mods, I will most likely be playing rF until I get sick of it. Well, at least until S2 gets an update. I'm having a hell of a time even going back to GTR and I loved that game. I still revisit that sim when I feel the need for real cars and tracks. Similarly, the fact that rF and LFS are built on fantasy cars and tracks, I really have no reason to switch between these two. The only thing that LFS had that a lot of other sims didn't was solid netcode. rF seems to have nailed this too since I have not had a single problem online so far. In the end, things need to stay fresh. I like the idea of adding new cars and tracks, especially real world cars and tracks. This fact coupled with solid physics, feel, and graphics will keep me hooked the longest.

[HeerBommel]

I don't have time for other racing games. Only LFS for me.

Nothing wrong with the other games. LFS is enough game for me. Thats all.

[kevman_101]

I played RF for a week then got sick of it and went back to LFS. Here are my plus and minuses:

+Nice Graphics(but i dont really care)
+Night driving( So much fun)
+Modding(as modding the game: once it kicks in, it should get crazy)
+Blown tires from damage(Might be in S2 once its finished?)

-Just doesn't feel like a sim
-The cars and tracks just arent very interesting/boring to drive
-Ugly cockpits(No numbers on the Tach and weird steering wheels)
-The price... In it's current form, I find it's real expensive
-Bad AI, but so are the one's in LFS

For now, there are only 2 series that have managed to keep my interest for more then 2 weeks. Nascar Racing series(played for 4 years, no longer play it) and LFS. Once i tryed LFS for the 1st time i got addicted same as NR. The tracks might not be real but my are they ever captivating and the cars are so much fun.

For me... all LFS needs is night-driving, weather effects, and more limitations to the setups of the road cars. Kinda funny that you can adjust you camber setting by 0.1 degree increments on a road car. Another neet feature would be that the time of day would be the same as the time on the server :D but thats off topic.

[xaotik]

-The cars and tracks just arent very interesting/boring to drive

My feelings exactly - the only ones worthwhile for a bit were the H6C mod cars but they had a sort of "unreal" feeling to them and the tracks are just not diverse enough and they don't really hold any "secret" challenges - like the dip at Aston or the chicanes in Fern Bay, etc

-Ugly cockpits(No numbers on the Tach and weird steering wheels)

I couldn't believe my eyes when I first saw the Hammer's steering wheel... I thought I was looking at a Saitek product or something...

[roy.s]

My basic aim is to see the response from two different sides of the scale, if you do not want to be apart of this, simply decide not to respond.iv got both games..sims wot ever u want to call um..rfactors good for moding which im not into .sounds are good but lfs is more me...just my 2 p's worth

[JeffR]

I don't have a favorite racing game. I switch back and forth between games these days, some of which I mostly play offline, others online. I enjoy arcade racing games as well as simualtion games. My favorite games are the TombRaider series; each release of a new version means I won't be playing anything else for a while.

The most time I spent with a single racing game was an arcade game, need for speed high stakes; it was one of the first true online racing games (a host server instead of player server). The next longest time I've spent with a game is Grand Prix Legends, mostly offline working on my GPL Rank (-12, most of which is due to an 8:15.32 at Nordschleife). Since then, I haven't spent that much time with any particular game.

Simulation type games I like (alphabetical order)

F1C99-02, plus RH2004, SCC and Prototype C mods.
Grand Prix Legends
GTR
GTLegends (waiting to receive this one)
LFS
NR2003, mostly road courses, plus Trans Am and GTP mods.

Other racing games:

Ford Racing 2
Mercedes Benz World Racing
Toca Race Driver 2
Need For Speed series, mostly high stakes, porsche unleased, undergound 2

Some of these games had interesting features. Need For Speed High Stakes, had a cool style to it's night time and/or weather graphics. With Mercedes Benz World Racing, the landscapes are fully implemented and you can drive anywhere on them. Toca Race Driver 2 had a story to go along with it's career mode. F1C99-02 RH2004 mod from TV view has incredible sound.

For anyone who's curious about what rFactor looks like, I've made some videos:

Howston at Toban, 1:42 lap
rfrftgp.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/cgi-bin/rfrhtgp.wmv)

Formula (like an F1) at Toban, 1:07.5 lap
rfrf1tgp.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/cgi-bin/rfrf1tgp.wmv)

Formula (like an F1) at Sadian, 27.3 lap
rfrf1sh.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/cgi-bin/rfrf1sh.wmv)

Now what will really impress me is when games look this good
(650hp 911 at Road America):
ra.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/cgi-bin/ra.wmv)

[roy.s]

Is there a demo of rFactor? I didn't think there was. I won't pay for something that I don't know whether it will run on my machine or not. I'd love to try it, but I highly doubt it will run. That's what I love about LFS, I can run it!! :thumb:there is a demo of rfactor on the offical site

[deggis]

there is a demo of rfactor on the offical site
Which was released over an year ago. ISI devs are cowards because they haven't released a new demo.

[Akuma66]

Which was released over an year ago. ISI devs are cowards because they haven't released a new demo.

Have to say this is key to me not even considering it yet. I am interested but not willing to throw 24 beans at it, when I havent even tried the current version.

I reckon a up to date demo would be a boost.

Edited for horrific spelling...

[kamkorPL]

Which was released over an year ago. ISI devs are cowards because they haven't released a new demo.

I don't feel like comparing Rfactor to LFS, but I can tell - I really felt the difference beetwen LFS S1 and S2 first demo(even tho, the "lfs feeling" was there). Can't say the same about rfactor. So if you don't like the old demo, don't bother buying unless some really awesome mods will come out.

[ruckus37]

Ok Rfactor is not just ” Hollywood arcade style” it is a great game, the mod opportunities are endless +1 too Rfactor. LFS dies after 2023 laps around the same track (track’s),

[keiran]

Ok Rfactor is not just ” Hollywood arcade style” it is a great game, the mod opportunities are endless +1 too Rfactor. LFS dies after 2023 laps around the same track (track’s),

You may want mods to keep the game alive but to say LFS dies is just stupid. This game is constantly improving over time and changing, look at the difference between S1 and 2

Modding opportunities aren't endless, you are confined to what the engine can do and also there’s no tool been released to make the AI line around the track

The biggest problem for rFactor is they are relying on the mods to keep the game alive. What would you do if the gamming industry hit down hard on people using trade names without a license?? Effectively a mod maker is stealing in a way because they aren't paying the big money for that license like EA and codemasters are.

For me the most important thing is the physics and that’s where LFS excels. Having the physics as dynamic as possible and using real world data rather than the old method of just simulating something within the limits that it needs to work in.

Keiran

[_rod_]

So 5 months after the last person posted here you felt like bringing it from the dead?

Dont want to sound mean or flame you... I just dont see the need for bring it from the dead.

[th84]

Not to mention he is online racing on the dreaded lfs. :P

[Gabkicks]

just someone bored arguing for the sake of arguing:tilt: dont matter if you know your wrong or right. just something to pass the time

[Vykos69]

So 5 months after the last person posted here you felt like bringing it from the dead?

Dont want to sound mean or flame you... I just dont see the need for bring it from the dead.
Sometimes, but not really often, someone comes back and tries to awake some dead piece of software... ;)

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

I can't beleive people keep posting in this thread!!!

(DOH :doh: I just did it too)

LOL

EDIT: I mean... UH.... LFS RUL3S, RFACTOR SUXXORSS!!!1111ONE

:hide:

[sgt.flippy]

:spider::tired::bananadea

[deggis]

both sucks!!

gt4 is teh greatest driving simulation!1!!

[Gabkicks]

:x

[Infiniti]

:jedi:
I just got a letter in the mail telling me there is a draft for WWIII haha, now whos idea was to start the flame war? :bananadea:ambulance:bannana_p

[deggis]

If there's going to be WWIII about this, we'll need to get Bush on our side. He has the biggest guns. I wonder does he dig LFS?

[Gabkicks]

Reporter: president bush, what do you think of the the simulator Live for Speed?

Bush: Well... uh... its about the simulation of... living for speed. a life of expedience.

[Infiniti]

No rednecks like him that come from texas throw their money towards NASCAR. Which I can't really stand because oval racing is probably next to drag racing where it takes the least racing skills / knowledge to be good. :tempted:


Edit : 100th post yippy-ki-yay! :monkey:

[Gabkicks]

do you really think oval racing doesnt require as much skill from the driver and team as DTM, gt or any other type of racing on circuits with left and right corners?

[sgt.flippy]

Yea, everybody says nascar is actually extremely hard, but doesn't it make sense if turning in another direction once in a while is harder? I know it's not as simple as a lot people think it is, but I still think it's easier than making a right turn once in a while :razz:

[deggis]

Reporter: president bush, what do you think of the the simulator Live for Speed?

Bush: Well... uh... its about the simulation of... living for speed. a life of expedience.
LOL :D Or "I like the pink cars" (that would be the answer if Conan O'Brian made a joke about this)

[Gabkicks]

Yea, everybody says nascar is actually extremely hard, but doesn't it make sense if turning in another direction once in a while is harder? I know it's not as simple as a lot people think it is, but I still think it's easier than making a right turn once in a while :razz:

its not that simple. i mean that logic of "because they're only turning left its easier" is the same reason some people see all racing as pointless and boring and skill less. they dont realize what it takes to be faster than everyone else. Yes i agree its not as exciting as a circuit with left and right turns but i think the challenge is equally hard on the driver and team, just in slightly different ways. Alot of the nascar drivers participate in other forms of motorsport and do well.

[mrodgers]

Personally, I get tired of seeing all the "Nascar is not real racing", "Nascar is easy", "What's so hard about it, they just turn left" etc. Yea, it's not too tough to turn left. But try turning left 1000 times at an average speed of 170 mph for about 4 or 5 hours.

So, I guess I can say that all other racing series isn't real racing. Sure they turn both left and right, but they run an average of like 70 mph for only 40 feakin laps for crying out loud. How hard is that?

On that note, I've been sim racing offline since 1995 until I found LFS. It was my first real experience with road racing as well as my first experience at racing online. Hmm, I have no problem racing and turning left AND right in LFS. I've never ran NR2003 online and I don't think I want to. It would be just too hard to run around turning left only at 170 mph with unpredictable real live racers rather than predictable AI.

There you have it. Everyone elses "opinion" is forced on everyone, so, I give mine. Road racing is EASY! Get some speed for crying out loud. Anyone can drive around at 70-80 mph for an hour or so (heck, I do it every day coming to and from work). Do some 150+ mph AVERAGE speed for 4 or 5 hours!

Bristol this weekend. Half mile track, 500 laps, 125 mph average speed and 15 second lap times. Not even enough track length to stretch the 43 car field nose to tail. You want exciting racing? Watch that.

[sgt.flippy]

If you put it that way, I can tell you when you're driving on the freeway, 120km/h (probably more, but you should only be doing 120:tilt:), a lot of people fall into sleep, there is no diversity, every time the same thing. But as far as watching to racing goes, I can't watch nascar for 4 hours, I will be sleeping. DTM or other things like that (no F1, hate that too) I can watch. But now I'm going to sleep, it's almost 2 o'clock here, I got exams next week :tired::sleep2:

Oh yea, I'm gonna stop replying to this kinda stuff, I don't like nascar that much, some of you guys do, I don't see the very difficult part in it (probably because I'm not that familiar with it). So this would turn out to be an endless discussion, wich I don't want to get involved in.

[Gabkicks]

i dont relaly like nascar that much either. infacti only watched part of 1 or 2 races this year. its just i respect the drivers and teams and i dont like to see people calling nascar easy :p

[skiingman]

You know how sometimes watching college basketball is more fun than watching pro ball because the kids make mistakes every once in a while?

Well, thats why I go to Watkins Glen for the Cup/Busch races whenever I get the chance. Although ten or twelve guys have the chops, its hilarious to watch the other thirty throw 3400/3600lb autos around left and right with no real clue how to do it properly. And it always points out that the northeast indeed DOES have its fair share of 'necks and hicks.

Its quite good fun, really. Big party.

[sgt.flippy]

And it always points out that the northeast indeed DOES have its fair share of 'necks and hicks.

Its quite good fun, really. Big party.

Yea, of course, they have you running around :razz: :shy:
I like watching the Yaris cup, or clio cup before the actual racing starts. It's much more exciting. You don't see one of the belcar porsches or vipers almost tip over in a chicane. Well, maybe a slight chance, but in Yaris or Clio cups, it's almost sure. Face it, people like to see the cars crash, I think the majority of people have more fun watching a race where somebody crashes, than if nothing happens. People need sensation! Cars running around a track (oval or not) without any crashes can be boring sometimes. Why is it exciting to see two cars fighting for a position? They might crash.

There maybe are people that will say this isn't correct, but for the majority of people, it is. How many of you guys that drive a car, and you pass a car accident, doesn't slow down to watch? I know I do (on my bike :().

[colcob]

Well clearly, the guys at the top in NASCAR and oval racing generally are enormously skilled at the range of skills that oval racing requires, and we should respect that.

It just seems to me that the actual range of skills is smaller and different, rather than a lower level of skill being required. Clearly in oval racing, you dont need to be able to trail brake from 150-50mph into a decreasing radius turn over a crest without losing the back end; you dont need to be able to put down 700bhp while exiting a 30-40mph tight bend twice a lap without spinning; you dont need to be able to outbrake another car into a sweeper, or ride kerbs through a chicane at high speed. etc.etc.

Of course, you need need to be able to ride at high speed, surrounded by other cars, maintaining peripheral awareness, controlling the car and formulating overtaking strategy all at the same time, which no doubt takes great skill and concentration.

[-wes-]

Clearly in oval racing, you dont need to be able to trail brake from 150-50mph into a decreasing radius turn over a crest without losing the back end; you dont need to be able to put down 700bhp while exiting a 30-40mph tight bend twice a lap without spinning; you dont need to be able to outbrake another car into a sweeper, or ride kerbs through a chicane at high speed. etc.etc.



You do most of that at bristol, and drivers brake at a lot of the big tracks these days as well.
The only thing that we will ever agree on is that you can learn to drive an oval faster. only 2 bends vs 7+ at a road course less to remember and so on.

hmm I was sure one of the demos used bristol but they dont. Anyway if you have never driven a nascar sim pick up the papyrus 2002 and 03 demo's and find out what us oval heads are on about.

The lfs oval is a bit pants next to most of the other shapes out there.

http://www.vugames.com/downloads.do


try braking in to the bends at richmond and michigan.

[sgt.flippy]

I used to play papyrus nascar sims, I have to agree, it's hard to avoid the other cars, but once your going it's so boring, I just played the game, or downloaded the demo for wrecking the other cars :shy:

[skiingman]

you dont need to be able to put down 700bhp while exiting a 30-40mph tight bend twice a lap without spinning;.

Yeah, so I'm definitely NOT a NASCAR fan, but this is just wrong.

You need to do just that, except with 800bhp and a live rear axle and unsettling transitions from asphalt to concrete, all with 42 other cars nearby. Read: Bristol/Martinsville.

[Eldanor]

it seems popular nowadays in europe to hate america.:shrug:

Well, maybe hate is a rude word, we don't hate America, but there is a common thinking (and not only in Europe) that your presidents should stop "saving the world" without being asked for :thumb:.

For a start you should stop wearing guns all around, I don't want to be rude, but you guys can't imagine how hilarious this thing is for us. :shrug:

But don't think we hate America :thumb:

EDIT: Some typos

[Gabkicks]

we dont go around wearing guns. its only in some parts of america where people walk around with guns shown (like parts of texas) because its legally required for the gun to be visible if i remember correctly.


i wonder what other types of steriotyps euros have about america :scratchch

[Vain]

If NASCAR was a french, or italian, or british or german thing I'd dislike it just as much. I also dislike F1, f.e.

Vain

[sgt.flippy]

Yea, I hate F1 for the following reason: it's one big ripoff. I will never forget the race where michael schumacher was second, his teammate first, and the pits radioed him to back off, and let michael win.

And the thing is, with america, they really try to control the rest of the world, people don't like this. The worst thing is, america isn't even that much better in things that they say is wrong in other countries. America kinda tells the world not to have arms, because it would start wars, but america also owns arms, nothing bad about that, and they start wars against other countries, because of speculations. While most people are pretty sure when they say it just was about oil. Oh well, this is not my kind of discussion. I always liked america for some reason, but some things just aint right.

[dontsimon]

I will never forget the race where michael schumacher was second, his teammate first, and the pits radioed him to back off, and let michael win.

That did suck, but team orders are not allowed anymore. The F1 teams opinion is that it is their job to bend the rules and for the FIA to catch and stop them (can anyone here tell us who exactly said this?)

[Eldanor]

we dont go around wearing guns. its only in some parts of america where people walk around with guns shown (like parts of texas) because its legally required for the gun to be visible if i remember correctly.

i wonder what other types of steriotyps euros have about america :scratchch

I know, I have some american friends, and I'm sure you don't have a gun in the drawer, but you have the right if you want.

Sorry if I offended you :thumb:, I don't want to start a political argument, let's talk about LFS :)

BTW: I'm spanish, so I know something about stereotypes :) :inq:

Regards

[skiingman]

Hehe, teams orders carried out overtly may not be allowed, but thats hardly the end of all team orders. Just the really tacky ones lacking subtlety. :)

Hey, I have a gun in the drawer!

Not really, just some hunting rifles and shotguns. Remember that not all Americans are against sensible gun control...

[SamH]

Some Americans believe that guns kill people. Some other Americans point out that actually it's people who kill people. Europeans tend to point out that in fact it's people who have access to guns that kill people.

I rent in the UK and pay a mortgage in the US. I can't pretend that I feel as safe in the US as the UK. I don't. I just get a better tan there.

[Shotglass]

What is it with these words, where the capital letter is the second character?

rFactor
dEmporium
iRacing
iPod

:scratchch Very confusing, the capital letter should be the first letter of the name! :D

hmmm looking at the logo ... lfS ... even more confusing

[colcob]

Yeah, so I'm definitely NOT a NASCAR fan, but this is just wrong.

You need to do just that, except with 800bhp and a live rear axle and unsettling transitions from asphalt to concrete, all with 42 other cars nearby. Read: Bristol/Martinsville.

Fair enough, then I stand corrected, I wasnt aware there were oval tracks out there with hairpin bends and spoon curves.

[Eldanor]

hmmm looking at the logo ... lfS ... even more confusing

I think is the actual trend of "cool names", in late 90's the used "ciber" or "multimedia" to death, later they put an X in everyting, and now I think the trend goes to leet speech (is it speak or speech?) and strange capitalization.

Marketing sucks :shrug: :)

Skiingman: ooops, I'll think twice the next time we're close racing ;) :D

[Zoltuger]

Well clearly, the guys at the top in NASCAR and oval racing generally are enormously skilled at the range of skills that oval racing requires, and we should respect that.
it's definitely a different skill set for oval v circuit racers- you can't say an oval driver is plain better than a circuit racer
take for example someone like 2003 IRL winner Scott Dixon, who performs better in circuit racing than oval racing compared to the other IRL drivers

[spankmeyer]

I loved playing early Papy Nascars back in the 90's, trying to make the biggest crash ever. Good times, good times. :)

[skiingman]

Fair enough, then I stand corrected, I wasnt aware there were oval tracks out there with hairpin bends and spoon curves.

Yeah, and like I said I'm not a NASCAR fan. The most interesting "left turn only" tracks are usually not the ones NASCAR is competing on. If you ask drivers or fans, they will tell you that the now ubiquitous 1.5 mile speedways get tired after the first few...

If you look down the ranks from NASCAR to more accessible forms of circle track racing in the US, you find some of the really interesting tracks (some have very little bank, some have huge banks with insane transitions, some are ridiculously small and more like a bullfight than a race, etc.)

The one thing I really do like about circle track racing is that it makes quality racecar components that are sized about right to be adaptable to road cars quite readily accessible and inexpensive. :)

[deggis]

What the hell... rFactor vs. LFS turns out to NASCAR vs. European tracks which turns out to US vs. Europe? :pillepall

[Vykos69]

What the hell... rFactor vs. LFS turns out to NASCAR vs. European tracks which turns out to US vs. Europe? :pillepall
There you go, that's the real inside problem! ;)

[Turbocharge]

Gran Turismo 4....the game which uses REAL cars...and ALmost has graphics that seem like youre watching a movie instead of a game... http://videos.streetfire.net/video/616F9812-F279-4F6B-B6F6-CEB8D9FB2BA8.htm such as this....never mindin its on a cd played with xbox...but i hope you understand my 2 cents

[Hankstar]

Except GT4's canned physics are nothing on LFS (or rFactor); GT4 doesn't model damage (rather, the manufacturers won't let Polyphony model damage) or fuel or tyre use (they get hot - that's it); GT4 has no online content (afaik); no custom skins (no custom anything); no international leagues; hmm, what else...oh yeah, GT4's a console game .. but with suh-weet graphics! Just like Metal Gear. But yes, it does model real cars - although I really can't see why there needs to be fifty different models of Nissan Skyline ... what about a couple of Toranas mate? :D

.. but I like it anyway - it has the Ford GT40, the sexiest Le Mans prototype ever :nod:

BTW if you want to see what a real RUF Yellow Bird is capable of, google "RUF Nurburgring" and check around. It's worth it!

[tristancliffe]

Uses models of cars which look a bit like the real life one they're meant to be, has handling (but not necessarily accurate handing) for all the cars, low resolution graphics that rely on TV anti-alaising and blurring to look okay (don't try on a TV bigger than 30", it looks awful).... need I go on. A few people actually believe it's a simulation, which makes me laugh.

[Hankstar]

Compared to NFS, GT4 is a simulation ...

TC, I just noticed your sig - do you think rF will refund you for your license? :)

[deggis]

Gran Turismo 4
never mindin its on a cd played with xbox
Xbox? I thought you were a GT4 fan boy but I guess that's not the case.

GT4 doesn't model damage (rather, the manufacturers won't let Polyphony model damage)
Bad lie. They could get a FIA GT license or something and make a damage only to that series and part of the game. That way car manufacturers have nothing to say against damaging because the license deal is with FIA.

Second thing is that in GT4 you can't even flip over. Drive into the wall and nothing happens. This means there is no physics for that at all so you can't even have a "crash".

[rabidmaddog]

I've been playing LFS for several months and I am very impressed. I wanted to try Rfactor since I have heard some positive reviews. My following assessment of Rfactor will not be positive, you've been warned.

The first thing I noticed was the rather odd counter-steering in Rfactor. Despite many hours experimenting with different cars, setups, and controller settings, I was never able to control any but the most trivial of over-steer situations. I've driven silly in real cars on a closed "course" and know how counter-steering influences the rotation and direction of the car. Rfactor simply doesn't have it right, at least not as it plays on my system. Incidentally, I noticed the same thing in the GTR demo, as well as other MODs by Simbin. It's almost as though a spin is a scripted event and there is simply no stopping it regardless of what one does with the steering wheel. Loosing the back end beyond a certain point, sure, those cases are hopeless, but I am talking about easily correctable over-steer situations. In LFS on the other hand, I can control a slide with counter-steering and throttle adjustments just like in a real car.

Additionally, I've encountered nightmare stability problems with Rfactor. I've encountered video lock-ups where the audio keeps running, entire game lock-ups where the entire simulator freezes up, full system lock-ups which respond to ctrl-alt-del, full system lock-ups which do not respond to ctrl-alt-del, and even fatal errors resulting in the blue screen of death/reboot. These will occur while driving solo, in a full field, while navigating menus, and while selecting a track or a car. I've driven for 20 minutes without incident, and other times only 30 seconds until a game or system freeze. The overwhelming consensus on the Rfactor forum is that the problem is GPU overheating. Hmm, I don't think so. Here’s why...

The issue I have with the overheating explanation is that a video card, at least a properly designed one, is designed to be stable at 100% load. Its performance is determined by its processor and clock frequency. Unless it is over-clocked, there is no magical means by which a game will load the GPU beyond 100%; it simply will not perform any more calculations per second. When detail settings and resolution in a game require more GPU horsepower than the 100% a video card is capable of, it becomes evident in reduced frame rates. Overheating should not occur unless there is a cooling problem such as dust, high internal case temperatures, high ambient temperatures, inoperable fans, or a video card or driver design flaw. I have none of these conditions at the moment, and I'm sure many of you do not as well. Other games which will also load the GPU into oblivion (100%) should also induce the alleged overheating problem, but they do not. Additionally, navigating game menus, and selecting cars/tracks in Rfactor does not substantially load an Nvidia 6800GT or any other video card. Freezing, if not completely crashing the OS in a simple menu, can not possibly be a result of overheating.

I've tried Rfactor with less demanding video resolutions and detail settings. I've tried it using DX7, DX8, and DX9. I've also tried various sound configurations. The instability persisted and lock-ups would occur at seemingly random intervals regardless of CPU/GPU load. The instability, which is some of the worst I've ever seen in a game/simulator, including demos, along with the odd counter-steering physics, ultimately resulted in my refund request.

I think Rfactor is promising, but it's my opinion that it needs more work. Following my 10 hour fiasco of reading forums and experimenting with various Rfactor settings, I decided to drive for a while in Live For Speed. The difference is as night is to day. Counter steering actually works, steering in general feels much more precise, providing much better control over slides. In the several months I've been playing LFS it's been 100% stable. I feel somewhat guilty for even trying Rfactor and feel like I should send the guys at LFS some more money for my betrayal in buying Rfactor and installing it on the same PC. LOL.

I Hope this helps save some people from the issues I've encountered with Rfactor. I love LFS and it just keeps getting better. Bravo!

[JJ72]

NFS underground 2 has not bad physics imo, i've beaten the game twice :D

[JJ72]

I don't understand why you would like to type such a long thread specificly on R-factor on a LFS forum, look we don't have a fetish in this particular sim.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Note the thread title

[rabidmaddog]

I don't understand why you would like to type such a long thread specificly on R-factor on a LFS forum, look we don't have a fetish in this particular sim.

I am sorry, but I was under the impression that a thread named "Rfactor vs LFS" would be a good place for my assesments of both simulators, not to mention my dismal experience with Rfactor. I do not write the information to make myself feel better. I simply hope it will help others, assuming they can read. As you can see, Canadians can read.

[rabidmaddog]

NFS underground 2 has not bad physics imo, i've beaten the game twice :D

Yet you don't understand why I wrote of my experiences with Rfactor and what I think of LFS in this very thread named "Rfactor vs LFS"?

NFS Underground 2? What are you smoking?

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Yet you don't understand why I wrote of my experiences with Rfactor and what I think of LFS in this very thread named "Rfactor vs LFS"?

NFS Underground 2? What are you smoking?

If one IS smoking things, then NFSanything IS fun :D :razz:

[BWX232]

I've been playing LFS for several months and I am very impressed. I wanted to try Rfactor since I have heard some positive reviews. My following assessment of Rfactor will not be positive, you've been warned.

The first thing I noticed was the rather odd counter-steering in Rfactor. Despite many hours experimenting with different cars, setups, and controller settings, I was never able to control any but the most trivial of over-steer situations. I've driven silly in real cars on a closed "course" and know how counter-steering influences the rotation and direction of the car. Rfactor simply doesn't have it right, at least not as it plays on my system. Incidentally, I noticed the same thing in the GTR demo, as well as other MODs by Simbin. It's almost as though a spin is a scripted event and there is simply no stopping it regardless of what one does with the steering wheel. Loosing the back end beyond a certain point, sure, those cases are hopeless, but I am talking about easily correctable over-steer situations. In LFS on the other hand, I can control a slide with counter-steering and throttle adjustments just like in a real car.

Additionally, I've encountered nightmare stability problems with Rfactor. I've encountered video lock-ups where the audio keeps running, entire game lock-ups where the entire simulator freezes up, full system lock-ups which respond to ctrl-alt-del, full system lock-ups which do not respond to ctrl-alt-del, and even fatal errors resulting in the blue screen of death/reboot. These will occur while driving solo, in a full field, while navigating menus, and while selecting a track or a car. I've driven for 20 minutes without incident, and other times only 30 seconds until a game or system freeze. The overwhelming consensus on the Rfactor forum is that the problem is GPU overheating. Hmm, I don't think so. Here’s why...

The issue I have with the overheating explanation is that a video card, at least a properly designed one, is designed to be stable at 100% load. Its performance is determined by its processor and clock frequency. Unless it is over-clocked, there is no magical means by which a game will load the GPU beyond 100%; it simply will not perform any more calculations per second. When detail settings and resolution in a game require more GPU horsepower than the 100% a video card is capable of, it becomes evident in reduced frame rates. Overheating should not occur unless there is a cooling problem such as dust, high internal case temperatures, high ambient temperatures, inoperable fans, or a video card or driver design flaw. I have none of these conditions at the moment, and I'm sure many of you do not as well. Other games which will also load the GPU into oblivion (100%) should also induce the alleged overheating problem, but they do not. Additionally, navigating game menus, and selecting cars/tracks in Rfactor does not substantially load an Nvidia 6800GT or any other video card. Freezing, if not completely crashing the OS in a simple menu, can not possibly be a result of overheating.

I've tried Rfactor with less demanding video resolutions and detail settings. I've tried it using DX7, DX8, and DX9. I've also tried various sound configurations. The instability persisted and lock-ups would occur at seemingly random intervals regardless of CPU/GPU load. The instability, which is some of the worst I've ever seen in a game/simulator, including demos, along with the odd counter-steering physics, ultimately resulted in my refund request.

I think Rfactor is promising, but it's my opinion that it needs more work. Following my 10 hour fiasco of reading forums and experimenting with various Rfactor settings, I decided to drive for a while in Live For Speed. The difference is as night is to day. Counter steering actually works, steering in general feels much more precise, providing much better control over slides. In the several months I've been playing LFS it's been 100% stable. I feel somewhat guilty for even trying Rfactor and feel like I should send the guys at LFS some more money for my betrayal in buying Rfactor and installing it on the same PC. LOL.

I Hope this helps save some people from the issues I've encountered with Rfactor. I love LFS and it just keeps getting better. Bravo!


Maybe your PC just sucks? Did you build it?

[hammer it]

I am sorry, but I was under the impression that a thread named "Rfactor vs LFS" would be a good place for my assesments of both simulators, not to mention my dismal experience with Rfactor. I do not write the information to make myself feel better. I simply hope it will help others, assuming they can read. As you can see, Canadians can read.

Thank you for your assesment.
I had thought about trying RFactor and no longer do. :thumb:

[rabidmaddog]

Maybe your PC just sucks? Did you build it?

That's possible. However, it runs about 30 other games, including LFS, RBR, Battlefield 2, Doom 3, and X-plane at very high resolutions and detail settings. It also runs all of my music composition software and a boat load of virtual instruments which are very CPU and RAM intensive. If anything will detect system instability, it's digital audio workstation software. The PC also runs AutoCAD which is what I work with for a living. It's been running fine for over a year. There are neither IRQ conflicts nor any IRQ sharing. It's the most reliable and stable platform I've ever used. Yes, I did build it. I never buy pre-built machines because they always have exhibited more problems, are never configured exactly how I would like, and are considerably more expensive. I've been building them for 12 years. There really isn't much to it these days; especially if you're Canadian and you can read. Rfactor induced the only blue screens of death I've ever seen on the PC. No, I don't think the PC sucks. It is rock solid; hence my assessment of Rfactor's instability. If I were the least bit suspicious of my PC, I would not find fault with Rfactor and would discuss the issues in a PC forum. Everything works flawlessly except Rfactor.

[rabidmaddog]

Thank you for your assesment.
I had thought about trying RFactor and no longer do. :thumb:

They do have a demo which I tried. It was seemingly stable for the 45 minutes I played it. The car did exhibit the counter-steering problem, but I thought it might simply be that individual car. It would seem that is not the case however. In my opinion, LFS is the way to go.

[rabidmaddog]

If one IS smoking things, then NFSanything IS fun :D :razz:

I had not thought of that. That might fix Rfactor! I've tried vodka and cranberry juice playing LFS, but for some reason the simulator increases its difficulty level as I drink. Must be a software bug. :smileypul

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Must be a software bug. :smileypul

No it's your PC.

I build my own PCs also (I am Canadian and I can read) and Guiness has the same effect on LFS as your Vodka drink... It's because we build our PCs, not a bug.

[nismodallin]

No it's your PC.

I build my own PCs also (I am Canadian and I can read) and Guiness has the same effect on LFS as your Vodka drink... It's because we build our PCs, not a bug.
:pillepall

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

LOL, note the jovial nature of my post hehe.

[KeMoT]

I have bought rFactor some time ago and have not driven a lap up to now... brand new game umm, license.
It looks weird although, recent mods for it make it look nice :)

[rabidmaddog]

No it's your PC.

I build my own PCs also (I am Canadian and I can read) and Guiness has the same effect on LFS as your Vodka drink... It's because we build our PCs, not a bug.

Damn, I was afraid of that. Now I need to build a new one which is alcohol compliant. Will beer work in a liquid cooling system? :D

[rabidmaddog]

I have bought rFactor some time ago and have not driven a lap up to now... brand new game umm, license.
It looks weird although, recent mods for it make it look nice :)

Please let us know if it works. Perhaps there is hope.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Damn, I was afraid of that. Now I need to build a new one which is alcohol compliant. Will beer work in a liquid cooling system? :D

Beer would work, make sure it's flat. But hard stuff would work better at exchanging heat. (151 proof rhum should do).

[BWX232]

That's possible. However, it runs about 30 other games, including LFS, RBR, Battlefield 2, Doom 3, and X-plane at very high resolutions and detail settings. It also runs all of my music composition software and a boat load of virtual instruments which are very CPU and RAM intensive. If anything will detect system instability, it's digital audio workstation software. The PC also runs AutoCAD which is what I work with for a living. It's been running fine for over a year. There are neither IRQ conflicts nor any IRQ sharing. It's the most reliable and stable platform I've ever used. Yes, I did build it. I never buy pre-built machines because they always have exhibited more problems, are never configured exactly how I would like, and are considerably more expensive. I've been building them for 12 years. There really isn't much to it these days; especially if you're Canadian and you can read. Rfactor induced the only blue screens of death I've ever seen on the PC. No, I don't think the PC sucks. It is rock solid; hence my assessment of Rfactor's instability. If I were the least bit suspicious of my PC, I would not find fault with Rfactor and would discuss the issues in a PC forum. Everything works flawlessly except Rfactor.


Well your PC is very unstable by the sound of it. rF is not inherently unstable at all. It must be your PC.. some component that rF finds the weakness in. Maybe it is a BIOS setting that needs adjusting? rF is a very demanding app. -Much more than almost all you listed.

Buffalo NY just beat Canada's butt in hockey..

I suppose that has about as much to do with this conversation as you being Canadian an literate. Of course maybe there are more illiterate people there? I should hope not.:really:




I've been playing LFS it's been 100% stable. I feel somewhat guilty for even trying Rfactor and feel like I should send the guys at LFS some more money for my betrayal in buying Rfactor and installing it on the same PC. LOL.

I Hope this helps save some people from the issues I've encountered with Rfactor. I love LFS and it just keeps getting better. Bravo!


You sound like a true one sided clone with blinders on! Congrats on that.. LOL. How would you know how rF drives if you never got it working correctly?

PS- you can drive more than one sim.. they don't have feelings like girls.

[JJ72]

Yet you don't understand why I wrote of my experiences with Rfactor and what I think of LFS in this very thread named "Rfactor vs LFS"?

NFS Underground 2? What are you smoking?

read post 7 by Looney.

[askoff]

I wouldn't judge the whole game just because it doesn't work well on some computers. Of course it affect's the driving experience but there's no certainty if the crashing is caused by the game itself. I would like to test rFactor some day because the GT Legends has given me so much fun.
Sure GT Legends isn't better than LFS, but, it's good enough for my taste.

[Platinum pete]

I have had Rfactor since it came out and didnt play it that much- although when i did it was OK but not much more. some of the early mods were great tho- and all of the tracks you can get.

recently i downloaded the RWS megane trophy mod and i have to say that i am having as much fun with this as i did with LFS It just ticks all the right boxes. LFS is still better overall but that new mod just shows that the rfactor engine is capable of great things.

The major let down of Rfactor in my opinion is that on my system i had to seriously re-configure my hardware to get it to run properly and responsively. this includes graphics latency settings and appeture settings along with a few others. in my opinion customers shouldnt have to do this.

[mrodgers]

I wouldn't judge the whole game just because it doesn't work well on some computers. Of course it affect's the driving experience but there's no certainty if the crashing is caused by the game itself. I would like to test rFactor some day because the GT Legends has given me so much fun.
Sure GT Legends isn't better than LFS, but, it's good enough for my taste.
So, you are saying I shouldn't judge GTL because the best I can get is 10 FPS at 800x600x16 running with DX7, no AA/AF, no other cars on track and all ingame options set at minimum, yet LFS I can run 1152x864x32 with 4xAA/4xAF and all options set at maximum at 50 FPS, sometimes 70-80 FPS depending on number of racers?

[JJ72]

that's not normal dude, the performance different shouldn't be that big.

[boxer]

I've lost count on the ammount of 'Game A compared to game B' threads I have seen so instead of reading through each page of this one, i'll just share my opinion with you straight away instead.

The only way to make the comparison is to buy both games and decide for yourself, or go to neutral ground and ask there. It's no good going to a forum that favours one of the games over the other, as no doubt the majority of posts will be biased (even if for the right reasons)

Let me just say, the Sim industry is in a healthy position today. It's because there is so much choice out there for the consumer that it is healthy, so let's not argue too much :)

Each game has it's pro's and con's. Most of the time, the game with less con's equals the better game, but you have to look at it's good points too.

[rabidmaddog]

Well your PC is very unstable by the sound of it. rF is not inherently unstable at all. It must be your PC.. some component that rF finds the weakness in. Maybe it is a BIOS setting that needs adjusting? rF is a very demanding app. -Much more than almost all you listed.

Buffalo NY just beat Canada's butt in hockey..

I suppose that has about as much to do with this conversation as you being Canadian an literate. Of course maybe there are more illiterate people there? I should hope not.:really:


You sound like a true one sided clone with blinders on! Congrats on that.. LOL. How would you know how rF drives if you never got it working correctly?

PS- you can drive more than one sim.. they don't have feelings like girls.

Have you actually read my posts? I was quite interested in Rfactor and gave it very fair opportunity. The steering was goofy no matter what settings I used, at least until it locked-up or crashed my PC. I did actually drive and experiment with it for about 7 hours. The other 3 hours were spent reading forums trying to find solutions. If you read the post again, you will see that I do play other sims. This is how I know it's possible to correctly model counter-steering as in RBR and LFS.

"Very demanding" simply means highly CPU, GPU, and/or RAM intensive. My machine runs fine at 100% load. There are a number of PC stress tests available and my PC was stable when running those as well as all of my other games at very high settings.

I am actually quite objective. I am not attempting to bash Rfactor. I simply wanted to share my experience in that my machine configuration is rather typical for a high end gaming platform, at least one that is a year old. The headaches I experienced with Rfactor were ridiculous.

I'm sorry, but due to the successful stress testing, the plethora of other games I play, my quality hardware, and current, certified drivers, I don't see how system instability could possibly be the problem. If Rfactor was so much more "demanding" than my other sims and games, why does it run at such high frame rates? Regardless, 100% GPU & CPU load still should not induce instability on a stable machine; it would just result in lower frame rates as the demand increased. I can induce that very condition in some games including LFS. In X-plane, I can bring my system to it's knees with ridiculous resolution and detail settings. Frame rates will drop through the floor even with a Geforce 6800, AMD64 3400, and 2GB of Corsair PC3200. Despite the enormous demand of X-Plane, guess what? The Sim keeps running just fine. There are no lock-ups and no errors. That's called stability. It has nothing to do with how demanding a game is. As I said, I tried Rfactor at very low settings. It had no impact on the problems.

Gee, could it be that Rfactor simply has issues with certain hardware do to insufficient software testing? It's certainly happened many times before. You know, those little things called patches?

I will leave it up to the other forum members to determin what you sound like.

[rabidmaddog]

The major let down of Rfactyor in my opinion is that on my system i had to seriosly re-configure my hardware to get it to run properly and responsively. this includes graphics latency settings and appeture settings along with a few others. in my opinion customers shouldnt have to do this.

Precisely. So should I really tweak my BIOS and other settings to possibly make Rfactor happy and likely screw up the flawless performance of 30 of my other games and applications? I don't think so. As I said, I think Rfactor needs more testing and more work. I am not saying it won't work on a different machine. I hope it does work well for others. It simply was a nightmare for me and many others.

[Platinum pete]

Precisely. So should I really tweak my BIOS and other settings to possibly make Rfactor happy and likely screw up the flawless performance of 30 of my other games and applications? I don't think so. As I said, I think Rfactor needs more testing and more work. I am not saying it won't work on a different machine. I hope it does work well for others. It simply was a nightmare for me and many others.

if you did want to try it again the way that i sorted out the "goofy" steering was to reduce the graphics draw ahead to 0 (using riva tuner or equivelant). i think because controller inputs relate directly to the graphics engine or something odd like that!? this made the sim far more responsive for me and didnt adversely affect any other games as far as i know.

Just an FYI

[Pain-less]

if you did want to try it again the way that i sorted out the "goofy" steering was to reduce the graphics draw ahead to 0 (using riva tuner or equivelant). i think because controller inputs relate directly to the graphics engine or something odd like that!? this made the sim far more responsive for me and didnt adversely affect any other games as far as i know.

Just an FYI

rFactor runs sweet on my machine. I didn't have to re-configure anything, and what your talking about above is "Frames Rendered Ahead" which by default Nvidia sets to 3 but can cause stutters in some applications, so Nvidia advises setting this to 2 or even 0. This can be set by installing and running Coolbits, which is a little app that lets you OC your Nvidia card. As for rFactor, it took me away from LFS. I got tired of low speed corner spinning that LFS was known for. Although I will say this, after patch U, I have NOT experienced it and have been running LFS a little more, but I'm stuck on the McLarens in rFactor. :D

[askoff]

So, you are saying I shouldn't judge GTL because the best I can get is 10 FPS at 800x600x16 running with DX7, no AA/AF, no other cars on track and all ingame options set at minimum, yet LFS I can run 1152x864x32 with 4xAA/4xAF and all options set at maximum at 50 FPS, sometimes 70-80 FPS depending on number of racers?
Well can you realy say if the game is good or bad if you can't even play it? Sure the hardware requirement's are higher, but, IMHO the game is fine. Should I judge LFS if I play it online with GPRS?

[mrodgers]

Well can you realy say if the game is good or bad if you can't even play it? Sure the hardware requirement's are higher, but, IMHO the game is fine. Should I judge LFS if I play it online with GPRS?
In my opinion, yes I can say it is good or bad. My PC is 4 months old. I'm not the CEO of a corporation, just a simple hourly production employee trying to make it in this age today while allowing my wife to stay home and raise our kids ourselves rather than send them somewhere else for 8-10-12 hours a day. If those who program the software make you go out and purchase the absolute top of the line PC to play it, then in my opinion, it is crap.

My 5 yr old daughter plays S2 0.5Q on a freakin Celeron 667 MHz networked to my PC against me in the GTi and at around 35 FPS! Yet, GTL isn't able to run on an Athalon 64 3500?

[askoff]

In my opinion, yes I can say it is good or bad. My PC is 4 months old. I'm not the CEO of a corporation, just a simple hourly production employee trying to make it in this age today while allowing my wife to stay home and raise our kids ourselves rather than send them somewhere else for 8-10-12 hours a day. If those who program the software make you go out and purchase the absolute top of the line PC to play it, then in my opinion, it is crap.

My 5 yr old daughter plays S2 0.5Q on a freakin Celeron 667 MHz networked to my PC against me in the GTi and at around 35 FPS! Yet, GTL isn't able to run on an Athalon 64 3500?
My three years old PC (P4 2,5GHz) with GF6600GT works quite well with GTL. Your CPU should be almost two times faster than mine so if you don't have realy crapy display card I suggest you to check if there's a problem with your computer or setting in GTL.

[Platinum pete]

rFactor runs sweet on my machine. I didn't have to re-configure anything, and what your talking about above is "Frames Rendered Ahead" which by default Nvidia sets to 3 but can cause stutters in some applications, so Nvidia advises setting this to 2 or even 0. This can be set by installing and running Coolbits, which is a little app that lets you OC your Nvidia card. As for rFactor, it took me away from LFS. I got tired of low speed corner spinning that LFS was known for. Although I will say this, after patch U, I have NOT experienced it and have been running LFS a little more, but I'm stuck on the McLarens in rFactor. :D

you are more accurate than i was in explaining that, thats for sure.

the point i was trying to make was that before i did the frame renders ahead thingy i had some serious control lag and general unresponsiveness with Rfactor. the change made it far more controllable and it now feels infinitely better. dont know why this is but its fact in my case :nod:

[Hatemaker]

Ouch, I played rFactor yesterday, and I've already got my money back. Sorry to say it, but it was a waste of an hour.

[-wes-]

Ouch, I played rFactor yesterday, and I've already got my money back. Sorry to say it, but it was a waste of an hour.

gave it a proper test then? :razz:

[AndroidXP]

It's often the first impression that counts.

My first impressions were
LFS: blew my socks off
nKPro: the ok to nice driving was completely annihilated by the crap rest
rFactor: made me cringe

My current licenses are
LFS: S3
nKP: none (demo)
rF: none

See any correlation? :tilt:

[-wes-]

True. the rfactor demo just didnt grab me, but it can't be that bad lots of people like it. :shrug:

I guess I wont be buying another sim untill iracing release. Its nice that
lfs has seen off so many pretenders :nod:
But it would be good for it to have something better than it in the wild and better for us.

I still say an hour is not enough.:eclipseeh

lfs: I like this but back to nascar2003! (in 2003 :) )
rfactor: meh its alright
nkpro: lol I'll come back in a year.

[kompa]

Something to debate :) (http://www.rfactor.net/index.php?page=news_06-05bmwsauber)

[tristancliffe]

Gotta admit it's a nice model - nicer than the LFS one in many ways. I don't know what the exact limitations of the LFS 3D engine are, but despite rFactors cartoony graphics and floaty cars they do have a versatile engine.

The suspension is nice, and the little details, such as the pitot tube and extra aerials are very nice. Oh, and the rear wing 'vents' too. I'm not a fan of the horrid winglets on the front wing, but they have them in real life, so I can't complain, but aesthetically our front wing is nicer. Also, notice the T-camera (with a different 'texture' on the end), the nose cam, the grooved 3D tyres (rather than a texture), holes for the suspension, strain gauges on the rear wishbones, and the titanium ends on the front pushrods.

I really really hope that Eric sits down and makes every one of the LFS cars as stunningly accurate as that rFactor model, within the limitations of the LFS engine. I'd pay extra for it ;) Hell, I'll buy Eric a really big box of chocolates if he can stuff like this out for the next patch ;)

[RIP2004]

I posted a few weeks ago, but now we have a new version of LFS.

I own both. rFactor and LFS and played both much longer than 1 hour or 1 day or 1 week ;) Offline as well as online.

I still like rFactor at least as much as LFS.

It is kind of annoying, that after months of waiting and another physics update (a direct tyre physics update) there are still major problems (for me) with physics in LFS.

I don't want to talk about how results are produced. LFS has a really great approach by trying to calculate everything. rFactor does some tricks with reading tables. (one big reason for supporting LFS in my oppinion for fans of physics)

But what counts in first place for most players is the result, isn't it? If a simulation simulates something as real as possible, I don't care how it does it. I want to play the result ...

First of the very often described floating feeling of cars.
If I play LFS for a while and switch to rFactor it feels strange for the first few minutes.
BUT it is also the other way around. I even feel more of a sweeping car in LFS, because it doesn't have as many bumps as rFactor I think. You get the impression of flying a few milimeters above the ground. At least for the first few minutes.

But thats not a real point to me.

All racing cars in LFS are really great. And I really think this. All the Formula cars, all the GTR cars. They drive really as I would imagine them to drive. But I didn't drive any of them in real life.
I drove some karts a bit, but it is nowhere near a real car judging by feeling. Perhabs a bit of a small formula car in some way. I would imagine driving formula 1 cars is more similar to carts than to street cars ;)

What I did drive a lot of kilometers are street cars. Mostly FWD, but I drive regulary a RWD car with 180hp. My own car is 150 hp FWD.

And there is the problem. They drive more like rFactor. They feel like a lot more grip. And I am talking about Patch U, which made it a bit better.

The RWD cars still are strange in my oppinion. I don't know if it is a thing about physics, setups or missing electronics. But if a real BMW for example would oversteer that much if you just push it a bit, there would be a lot more accidents.
Millions of unexperienced and partly bad drivers drive RWD cars in real life. And boy, in some real life situations they will floor the throttle. e.g. if they have to join traffic on a highway or taking a 90° corner on their lane.

A lot of them will push the throttle out of a corner if they want to join traffic on the highway.
And a RWD car is very very stable in all of these situations. Deactivate ESP and a modern BMW will still understeer a lot in most situations. You have to be really violent with steering, throttle to really get it to oversteer. At least to get it to oversteer as much as in LFS.

In rFactor you can drive moderate and oversteer won't be a real issue. Like in real life it isn't necessary to know how to countersteer properly.
If you push it, oversteer may happen. If you really push it, oversteer WILL happen.

And there is a weakness of rFactor. You CAN catch slides. But after a certain angle of drifting, physics seem to give up. So I agree about the oversteering problem in rFactor. At some point it gets impossible to catch the drift.
But to that point it is much more drivable and feels much more realistic to me in comparison to real driving.

And I like street cars most like the FZ50, RAC, XF GT or GT Turbo or GTI.

Another thing which is definitly a PHYSICS ISSUE of LFS is wheelspin. In all of the cars its best to start full throttle. You are even able to do the best ranking in Acceleration lesson just with a keyboard. I managed a 7.09 in GTI Acceleration lesson with my keyboard.
Thats a really big issue which should at least in LFS also influence the rest of driving experience on the track.

In all real race series there are huge starter differences. Some cars manage to get several positions ahead. In LFS starts are really boring until the first corner.
All cars start equally because of the arcade signal (in rFactor its more of a simulation and you may react freely to the signal)
And then all cars start as quick as the others. They can just get an advantage by slipstream or another setup. Not by a good driver ...

On the other hand rFactor has a small clutch issue and unrealistic weak brakes on street cars. Both can be modified by yourself in the hdv files. I corrected that myself for me ;)
But I can't correct the "catching slides at high angles" problem. Its really a ISI physics thing, which should be corrected. If you drive well you won't need to get a drift at that angle ... you should react quick enough. So it doesn't matter as much, as constantly countersteering in LFS.

Enough ;) Hopefully someone reads it. Have fun, have to go for now.

[Shotglass]

...

a) try bobs road going setups (dunno if he has updated them for s/t/u yet) those make the cars as understeery as a normal road car ... its a setup issue not a tyres issue (at least not entirely)
and you can easily kick the tail out in most road cars irl if you overpower the rear wheels
b) the gti doesnt have half enough torque to spin the wheels enough be lose significant amouts of acceleration (but ive told you at least twice already so i guess this atmept will be in vain as well)

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

a) try bobs road going setups (dunno if he has updated them for s/t/u yet) those make the cars as understeery as a normal road car ... its a setup issue not a tyres issue (at least not entirely)
and you can easily kick the tail out in most road cars irl if you overpower the rear wheels
b) the gti doesnt have half enough torque to spin the wheels enough be lose significant amouts of acceleration (but ive told you at least twice already so i guess this atmept will be in vain as well)

Yeah, good points shotglass.

I don't comprehend the ranting about oversteer after the latest patch...

Everyone knew it before the patch, but it's like night & day now.:shrug:

Even with default setups, all the cars push like mad if you only slightly push them. Even the GTT/LX6 understeer into corners like crazy unless you set them up NOT to, or push them hard enough to bite you back. I'm sure someone will correct me, but I can't see this being very unrealistic. What IS unrealistic, is a car that corner like on rails, and then very suddenly decide that all hell has broken loose and you can't recover no matter what. :pillepall

And AGAIN, with the GTi wheelspin. Man, why can't people look at the whole situation's variables instead of saying "X is inherantly unrealistic" when in fact, X is only unrealistic in some conditions.

Take the FX0 - Rev it to 9000RPM & get some boost, then drop the clutch. GUESS WHAT - Doesn't get up & go as fast as if you drop it from a breif rev to 4000RPM does it? In fact, SOME (little) wheel spin is better than none at all even IRL.:nod:

[JJ72]

It's pretty rare that I now actually spin out in a FZ5 or RA, maybe twice or three times a night, and they does have a lot of grip and it's possible to be very aggressive with the turn in as well.

[RIP2004]

a) try bobs road going setups (dunno if he has updated them for s/t/u yet) those make the cars as understeery as a normal road car ... its a setup issue not a tyres issue (at least not entirely)
and you can easily kick the tail out in most road cars irl if you overpower the rear wheels
b) the gti doesnt have half enough torque to spin the wheels enough be lose significant amouts of acceleration (but ive told you at least twice already so i guess this atmept will be in vain as well)

a) bobs road going setups didn't change much about oversteer. At least the ones I tried with last version. They just made the suspension soft and ride heigth high. The ones, which really changed the situation were the ones by Nils.
But I'll look for new Setups with version U. I said that it could be the setup ... we'll see. But there is nearly no real car, which behaves like RAC or FZ50. At least no road legal car for usual customers.

b) And I told you at least twice, that there IS a lot of wheelspin. Engine Rev is at 8000 rpm. There is no blue graphic after start, so clutch is fully engaged.
Car speed is from 0 to 50 kph, whereas engine rev is at 8000 all the time. So there is a speed difference between wheels and car of about 50 kph getting lower.

But it is the same with the FZ50. You won't get (really) better results, with less throttle. Switch to automatic gear change, if you want realistic tests. Otherwise you will change situation by other shifting revs.

You see that situation with every car in LFS. I can do dozens of demonstrating videos on that issue. In real life there is a huge difference between a good and a bad starter. You will even notice it in a GTI like car.
In rFactor there is also a huge difference.
I think its also an issue in the problem, that a GTR car like the FZ50 is better off than the formula 1 car ...

I don't understand why a lot of people talk about differences, but can't show them. I bet, you don't even try really ...
Show me a time of GTI a lot better than 7.09.
Or show me huge differences with other cars with more torque. I really want to see that ...

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Can I just add that the high revs might not be just wheelspin, but the autoclutch staying on a bit.

He already said the "blue graphic" is gone so clutch is fully engaged...

I often get better starts than the pack using a clutch pedal.

[DeadWolfBones]

One other thing about the road-going cars in LFS is that you don't drive them the way you drive road-going cars in real life situations. In LFS I'm nearly always foot-to-the-floor and trying to take corners as quickly as possible. When was the last time you absolutely floored your street car for an entire 1000+ yard straight, or did 60-70mph through a decreasing radius corner? Furthermore, are your street cars tuned to do so?

I feel like it's pretty easy to wrongly criticise the street cars for not handling like your street car, when the conditions under which they operate are entirely different.

[RIP2004]

Wheelspinpart look here:

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=125021#post125021

Well handling is a bit subjective. Its all about a certain feeling. Everyone has a different one. So who knows how a real XF GT e.g. would handle :shrug:

I floor my cars often and I often drive corners quick enough to make the ESP cut of all throttle and stabilize the car. My former FWD car had no ESP and understeered in those situations.
I also have to change my tires after just 2 years :( :D

Cars are not tuned in any way.

Cars won't react exactly as mine, because they are different. But I feel them much more similar to the road going ones in rFactor.

Objective : it is very difficult to drive quick in a slalom or a lap, without having to counter steer the RWD cars in LFS. Even the low powered XF GT is oversteering a lot.

I totally share the opinion of Niels, who made those "road going" setups by using different tires in front and in the back :

My opinion on LFS was that there where some big tyre issues from the first demo S1 to S2 alpha. There where some improvements but compared to the size of the problem not much fundamentally changed.

This new patch is again 'some improvement', mostly now that the roadcars have a bit more straight line grip than lateral grip. The grip loss / sudden break away problem is still very much there, just slightly less often as with the slightly longitudinally grippier tyres it takes a bit more power or wild driving to get them to spin. But once they spin.. you spin.. There is still no way you can do a slalom even 'only a bit wild' without having loads of oversteer to catch.

Road tyres are still cooked at 100c too, which seems to indicate their 'peak' of 'good grip' is much smaller than what would seem to be realistic.

At this rate sadly, I don't think LFS will become truly superbly realistic until S6.. I do think its less 'wrong' than ISI and I'm certainly not sure that NKpro is 'better' than the lot. So its 2006 and GPL despite doing far less physics things still does the main things less bad than todays sims.

I do applaud the effort and hope the 'official F1 car' will make the devs a wel deserved load of extra orders and $.

[Shotglass]

a) bobs road going setups didn't change much about oversteer. At least the ones I tried with last version. They just made the suspension soft and ride heigth high. The ones, which really changed the situation were the ones by Nils.
But I'll look for new Setups with version U. I said that it could be the setup ... we'll see. But there is nearly no real car, which behaves like RAC or FZ50. At least no road legal car for usual customers.

do you seriously think that if you plunge your foot down in a car with the pwoer to weight of the lfr class that the rear end will stack in check ? cause if you do you should consider returning your drivers license

b) And I told you at least twice, that there IS a lot of wheelspin. Engine Rev is at 8000 rpm. There is no blue graphic after start, so clutch is fully engaged.
Car speed is from 0 to 50 kph, whereas engine rev is at 8000 all the time. So there is a speed difference between wheels and car of about 50 kph getting lower.

have you checked with an raf analyzer that the wheels actually spin at that speed and that the clutch isnt slipping ?

I think its also an issue in the problem, that a GTR car like the FZ50 is better off than the formula 1 car

twice the load on wider tyres ... guess which car is better of the line ?

When was the last time you absolutely floored your street car for an entire 1000+ yard straight

every day ? its a 60 hp punto though :)

or did 60-70mph through a decreasing radius corner? Furthermore, are your street cars tuned to do so?

hmmm also every other day on my way home (its a one way road with good visibility)
and round those corners at the limits of the puntos traction it feels a hell of a lot like a gti or an uf1 (probably the reason why those two are the only cars i really feel at home in lfs)

[BWX232]

I posted a few weeks ago, but now we have a new version of LFS.

I own both. rFactor and LFS and played both much longer than 1 hour or 1 day or 1 week ;) Offline as well as online.

I still like rFactor at least as much as LFS.

It is kind of annoying, that after months of waiting and another physics update (a direct tyre physics update) there are still major problems (for me) with physics in LFS.

I don't want to talk about how results are produced. LFS has a really great approach by trying to calculate everything. rFactor does some tricks with reading tables. (one big reason for supporting LFS in my oppinion for fans of physics)

But what counts in first place for most players is the result, isn't it? If a simulation simulates something as real as possible, I don't care how it does it. I want to play the result ...

First of the very often described floating feeling of cars.
If I play LFS for a while and switch to rFactor it feels strange for the first few minutes.
BUT it is also the other way around. I even feel more of a sweeping car in LFS, because it doesn't have as many bumps as rFactor I think. You get the impression of flying a few milimeters above the ground. At least for the first few minutes.

But thats not a real point to me.

All racing cars in LFS are really great. And I really think this. All the Formula cars, all the GTR cars. They drive really as I would imagine them to drive. But I didn't drive any of them in real life.
I drove some karts a bit, but it is nowhere near a real car judging by feeling. Perhabs a bit of a small formula car in some way. I would imagine driving formula 1 cars is more similar to carts than to street cars ;)

What I did drive a lot of kilometers are street cars. Mostly FWD, but I drive regulary a RWD car with 180hp. My own car is 150 hp FWD.

And there is the problem. They drive more like rFactor. They feel like a lot more grip. And I am talking about Patch U, which made it a bit better.

The RWD cars still are strange in my oppinion. I don't know if it is a thing about physics, setups or missing electronics. But if a real BMW for example would oversteer that much if you just push it a bit, there would be a lot more accidents.
Millions of unexperienced and partly bad drivers drive RWD cars in real life. And boy, in some real life situations they will floor the throttle. e.g. if they have to join traffic on a highway or taking a 90° corner on their lane.

A lot of them will push the throttle out of a corner if they want to join traffic on the highway.
And a RWD car is very very stable in all of these situations. Deactivate ESP and a modern BMW will still understeer a lot in most situations. You have to be really violent with steering, throttle to really get it to oversteer. At least to get it to oversteer as much as in LFS.

In rFactor you can drive moderate and oversteer won't be a real issue. Like in real life it isn't necessary to know how to countersteer properly.
If you push it, oversteer may happen. If you really push it, oversteer WILL happen.

And there is a weakness of rFactor. You CAN catch slides. But after a certain angle of drifting, physics seem to give up. So I agree about the oversteering problem in rFactor. At some point it gets impossible to catch the drift.
But to that point it is much more drivable and feels much more realistic to me in comparison to real driving.

And I like street cars most like the FZ50, RAC, XF GT or GT Turbo or GTI.

Another thing which is definitly a PHYSICS ISSUE of LFS is wheelspin. In all of the cars its best to start full throttle. You are even able to do the best ranking in Acceleration lesson just with a keyboard. I managed a 7.09 in GTI Acceleration lesson with my keyboard.
Thats a really big issue which should at least in LFS also influence the rest of driving experience on the track.

In all real race series there are huge starter differences. Some cars manage to get several positions ahead. In LFS starts are really boring until the first corner.
All cars start equally because of the arcade signal (in rFactor its more of a simulation and you may react freely to the signal)
And then all cars start as quick as the others. They can just get an advantage by slipstream or another setup. Not by a good driver ...

On the other hand rFactor has a small clutch issue and unrealistic weak brakes on street cars. Both can be modified by yourself in the hdv files. I corrected that myself for me ;)
But I can't correct the "catching slides at high angles" problem. Its really a ISI physics thing, which should be corrected. If you drive well you won't need to get a drift at that angle ... you should react quick enough. So it doesn't matter as much, as constantly countersteering in LFS.

Enough ;) Hopefully someone reads it. Have fun, have to go for now.



I agree 100% with everything you said.. I think the patch U helped a LOT- I mean for me it was a big change.. but yes the cars without down force that are RWD are still a problem, and in some respects even the GTR cars have the same problem as before but not nearly as bad. It's like if they keep improving it, over time it may be perfect someday... I hope. I still enjoy LFS though, it has an authentic feel that is very fun to try to control.


In rF I also feel the same exact problems you are describing.. I also have a problem with the way rF does FF.. LFS is 100x better in that regard..

I think the things you are talking about are subtle, and not everyone will be able to pick up on them, and if that is the case they might just think you are crazy. Don't worry, many people know exactly what you mean. :D

[RIP2004]

@shotglass :

Well, I do think that you can drive a 140 hp RWD car without that much power oversteer, even if it doesn't weigh that much. eg. a Mazda MX5. Its much easier to control than the XF GT.

The FZ50 is comparable to a Porsche. And a lot of old people drive Porsche. It propably will step out if you really floor it in a corner. But you can put an unexperienced driver in a Porsche and let him drive around a track.
In most cases he won't crash it ;)
Even if he is young and not as scared as old people.

If you put an unexperienced driver in an FZ50 in LFS, he certainly will spin out in first or second corner, even if he drives careful and doesn't try to be fast ...

But as I said I am not really sure about it. I just think its more like in rFactor, where you only have to be a good driver if you really push the car in the corner. Then it will step out. Not as fast as in LFS.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=125133#post125133

Look there for raf analyser wheelspin. There is a lot of wheelspin going on at the start in a FZ50.

I do think, a formula 1 car will start better because it has a TC which helps. Most GTR cars haven't got a TC (like in LFS).
So in real life a GTR car will lose from the start against a formula 1 car with TC setup.

@BWX : Thanks :)
I know, that a lot of people experience the wheel spin problem and see it. I am not the only one ;)

[JeffR]

Most GTR cars haven't got a TC Not sure where GTR fits, but FIA allows TC in GT1 class. A lot of super touring class races allow stability control (individual wheel braking) as well.

The 2006 Z06 Corvette has both TC (ECU) and stability (braking) control. For racing, TC is often disabled, since the stability control does a better job if the driver isn't too heavy on the throttle.

This Sundays Top Gear should be showing the Z06, which got a 1:22.4 on it's test track, just behind the 911 GT3 RSR, and ahead of many exotics like the Murcielago, Gallardo, 911 GT3 (non-race version).

[JeffR]

As far as comparing LFS to other racing sims, I rarely play online, but I do follow what games one of the top sim racing teams play, most members play more than one racing sim, mostly because this is where I went to get setups and replays for GPL and NR2003.

http://www.teamredline.co.uk

LFS - one member, Aki Räsänen, AKA "Lefty".
GPL - two members
NR2003 and basic mods - three members
GTP (mod for NR2003) - two members
F1C - two members
Toca race driver 2 - one member

NFS series - zero members (although I like these games).

From what I've read, the "experts" consider NR2003's physics to be the most accurate, not just ovals, but all the road courses available for download and the various mods, like the Trans-Am and GTP mods. Actual Nascar racers rate NR2003 as pretty good, espeically the trucks.

GPL seems to be next on the list, in spite of it's age.

After this, I don't think there's any general agreement among the race sim fans / experts.

Obviously there's LFS, and rFactor, as mentioned in this thread. Plus GTR, GTLegends, F1C and it's mods. GTR / GTLegends includes some real race drivers on it's staff, but I don't know how well this has helped the games. Then again, EA hired a Toyota Atlantic series race driver to assist with NFS:Underground 1, then probably dumped most of his inputs to make the game more arcadish.

rFactor is sort of a cheat though. The developers made a basic game with fantasy cars and tracks, knowing that others would create add-on cars and tracks based on real ones. Not exactly fair, but it's become popular.

[AeoIus]

LFS for me had an instant click that made it work for me. Rfactor did not.
Same thing for me with F1C vs GP series. F1C 'clicked' and GP series did not.

I cannot really explain why, just that one feels more natural to me it it's response.

My first time TOCA was an experience of close racing that was unforgettable. The grinding door to door to get around some corners just amazed me and I really liked the way the game handled. Then I just started to get into TOCA2 and really liked that as well, when I heard about LFS. I tried the demo and never looked at TOCA2 again. LFS was much more lifelike to me and RFactor did not do the same.

I never did really give it a shot though, so I still might like it if I got used to it. But I'm not willing to get used to it. I just do not have enough time to play, so LFS is enough and I REALLY like it since patch U, so this is probably where I'll spend my next couple of years racing :thumb:

GPL was just too damn hard when trying it first with a joystick, then got a non FFB steering wheel and still could not drive. Then got a FFB steering wheel and I was able to really carefully get around the track. It was still hard, but fun. It did not have the instant click but I kept trying because I then had the time to do that and was sure it was a great game.

So I cannot offer any real comments on RFactor other then: no instant 'click' when first playing the game and not willing to invest the time to make it work for me.

[BWX232]

RBR > ALL sims to date.. Too bad modding it for RWD cars and new tracks is extremely difficult (if impossible to the same quality as original)..

RaceCom, we are waiting.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

RBR > ALL sims to date.. Too bad modding it for RWD cars and new tracks is extremely difficult (if impossible to the same quality as original)..

RaceCom, we are waiting.

The dirt physics seem good in RBR, not convinced at all about the pavement physics. In fact, I wouldn't hesitate to say that the pavement physics in RBR are dreadful. It sure is a purty simulator too though and it's very good over all.

[Cue-Ball]

I have never played rF (and don't plan to, since i dislike the other ISI sims), so this is a bit off-topic. But, I did want to address some of the shortcomings that have been listed in this thread. I do think there are some problems with the longitudinal grip of the tires (they don't spin ENOUGH). I *highly* disagree with statements that the road cars are too easy to spin now. They behave very realistically if you ask me.

I drive a RWD, ~250hp car daily. No traction control, no ABS, etc. It's easy for me to get the tail end out, even not driving under the limit. And my car has had quite a bit of suspension work, so it handles better than stock. It's also very, very easy for me to spin the tires for quite a long distance. I can do the same thing in my wife's FWD 140hp car as well, since the weight transfers off the front tires.

The fact that the FZ50 will oversteer, get sideways, etc is not surprising to me at all. It's got more horsepower than my daily driver, which can hang the tail out almost at will at anything under 50mph. The fact that it doesn't spin the tires for about a block is a shortcoming in LFS, in my opinion.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

The fact that it doesn't spin the tires for about a block is a shortcoming in LFS, in my opinion.
No, not when the weight distribution is 62R38F! RWD Porsches of avg power don't lay super long patches, they squat and take off like heck. There is A LOT more traction available at the rear in the FZ50, not to mention fat tires. Gear the FZ to match the equivalent Porsche (trans & diff) and you'll see what I mean. Watch Tiff's test of a 911 GT2 and notice how fast it gets up to speed after dropping the clutch. Some wheelspin at first, but the things just goes. ( and that's with 470+ horsepower, it's a twin turbo)

[Cue-Ball]

No, not when the weight distribution is 62R38F! RWD Porsches of avg power don't lay super long patches, they squat and take off like heck. There is A LOT more traction available at the rear in the FZ50, not to mention fat tires. Gear the FZ to match the equivalent Porsche (trans & diff) and you'll see what I mean. Watch Tiff's test of a 911 GT2 and notice how fast it gets up to speed after dropping the clutch. Some wheelspin at first, but the things just goes.But that excuse doesn't work for all the other cars in the game. The FWD cars also have a hard time just turning over the tires. My friend used to have a beater 80's Dodge Colt. FWD with about 100hp. We could EASILY lay rubber in that car just by dumping the clutch at 5krpm because as the weight shifts back there's none on the tires. The FWD cars in LFS don't behave this way at all. I must admit, I haven't used perfview to check the results, but I'd be surprised if ANY of the cars in LFS can roast the tires for more than a few seconds. In real life, even slicks have trouble getting grip without VHT on the track.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Alright, when I get home then I'll gear a couple of the cars like standard comparable road cars (maybe a VW Golf for GTI) and an SRT-4 for the FX0, then I will head to the autocross area and see how much distance I can lay rubber over and how fast the car's going when it hooks up. Should be no problem with the distance measuring tool! Don't forget the importance of gearing obviously. Not to mention a road car setup, maybe I'll use bob's old ones. SO: Set the FWD cars up with suspension and gearing similar to a real road car, and test the results at autocross... That's my plan and I'm sticking to it.

[Cue-Ball]

Alright, when I get home then I'll gear a couple of the cars like standard comparable road cars (maybe a VW Golf for GTI) and an SRT-4 for the FX0, then I will head to the autocross area and see how much distance I can lay rubber over and how fast the car's going when it hooks up. Should be no problem with the distance measuring tool! Don't forget the importance of gearing obviously. Not to mention a road car setup, maybe I'll use bob's old ones. SO: Set the FWD cars up with suspension and gearing similar to a real road car, and test the results at autocross... That's my plan and I'm sticking to it.Be sure to let us know the results! :nod: I don't think any of the cars in the game are close enough to my daily driver to be a good comparison or I'd try the same thing.

edit: I just tried laying some rubber in the GTI and the XRT (had to use the mouse since I'm at work. :) ). I must admit, they're spinning the tires for a lot longer than I gave credit for. I wasn't able to measure the black marks, and I was using Race_S setups with just a little added height and softness, but it doesn't seem as far off as I first thought. I was dropping it into first with the revs pegged. Normally, just mashing on the gas, it doesn't do that. I wonder if it's the auto clutch at play that's throwing me off?

[BWX232]

The dirt physics seem good in RBR, not convinced at all about the pavement physics. In fact, I wouldn't hesitate to say that the pavement physics in RBR are dreadful. It sure is a purty simulator too though and it's very good over all.


Yeah Eero Piitulainen said he wasn't satisfied with that part either.. but as far as how accurate they are, there are a lot of circumstances where other sims fall apart and RBR seems more believable.. It is hard to say what exactly is going on in the RBR physics engine sometimes, but it doesn't have very many quirk's that other sims do. Just like setups in LFS, setups matter in RBR.

The main point was that the guy who is responsible for the best physics engine ever made for a sim (some have said- for gravel at least)... is making another one.. and I am hopeful that will give us another great sim to play. He's concentrating on tarmac this time from what I have heard, as well as possibly complex soft surfaces like in RBR. Should be an interesting year next year! By that time I am thinking LFS will have another update too though, so we'll have to wait and see what happens with that. I'll play them all..

[RIP2004]

@cue-ball :

Easy to explain. At the moment something is wrong with spinning tire grip in LFS. They have to much grip.

1. They will accelerate much better spinning and therefore car is quicker in higher speeds, where engine power isn't sufficient to spin the wheels further ...


2. They generally have to much grip and therefore engine would need even more power than in real life to spin them.

Thats why they don't spin as long as in RL.

Greetings
RIP

[BWX232]

@cue-ball :

Easy to explain. At the moment something is wrong with spinning tire grip in LFS. They have to much grip.

1. They will accelerate much better spinning and therefore car is quicker in higher speeds, where engine power isn't sufficient to spin the wheels further ...


2. They generally have to much grip and therefore engine would need even more power than in real life to spin them.

Thats why they don't spin as long as in RL.

Greetings
RIP
Well that just confused me a little, because in that scenario you mentioned, it seems they would spin less than in RL- more in LFS? maybe a a double negative I didn't pick up on. But less grip = more spinning right? Or are you talking about JUST longitudinal grip and not lateral grip? I think you lost me on that one.

[GP4Flo]

I'm so glad to be a LFS fanboy. ;)

So, ISI got the nod to create the mod to help the F1 team promote themselves and their sponsors… which includes Intel. The bad news for race sim fans is that this mod won't be available for home use any time soon, as it's a privately commissioned mod for BMW/Sauber's corporate use. http://www.simhq.com/_all/all_020d.html

[Tweaker]

This might have been what Scavier didn't agree with for that "not-beneficial-to-LFS term" probably. But I don't know, I don't want to confuse things :)

[Linsen]

The Sauber will come to rFactor eventually, though. Just "not any time soon".

[RIP2004]

Well that just confused me a little, because in that scenario you mentioned, it seems they would spin less than in RL- more in LFS? maybe a a double negative I didn't pick up on. But less grip = more spinning right? Or are you talking about JUST longitudinal grip and not lateral grip? I think you lost me on that one.

Yes, you understood me. I just talked about longitudinal grip. Cue Ball said, that the wheels don't spin as long and far as in real life. And thats the explanation I think ...

[Bawbag]

Sorry for bringing an old topic but I was just wanted to get some opinions on RFactor as it is to date.

I'm currently pretty bored with LFS so I kinda need another online racing SIM to waste my time on and make me realise how good LFS is, so I thought RFactor would be a good idea.

But the thing is it's alot deerer than LFS is and i'm not willing to pay that much for a game that I may well get bored of very quickly. So I was wondering if someone would sell me their account cheap or let me borrow it so I can give a verdict on the game.

Regards,


Ray

[deggis]

Try the new demo at least which they released last month. It has BMW-Sauber, some other car and 2 tracks. No MP though.

[Bawbag]

That's exactly why I didn't download it, no multiplayer, that's the one thing i'm looking for in a game, so if the game isn't particularly good but the MP is I will play it (And going by whats said on here, RF isn't to good on it's own)

:)

[Hallen]

I have not attempted rFactor online, but I do own a copy and have raced it quite a bit at home. I can tell you that car setups are very different than LFS and there are some annoying quirks in their physics. You need a much more powerful GPU and computer to get decent frame rates out of rFactor as compared to LFS. The sound is really, really bad. Tire scrub and squeal is very uncommunicative. The engine sounds are really bad samples that don't tell you squat about what the car is doing.

All the cars will understeer with just a slight turn of the wheel when you are at anything above 30mph. You really can't dial this out of the cars with setup. You can make the cars oversteer, but only when you don't want them to. It is almost like weight shift is not modeled in the sim.

The reason I have it is because I do occasionally want to drive on tracks that exist in the real world and because I am playing around a bit with track modding. rFactor does offer this capability. There are a lot of bad tracks out there, and some really odd mods, but there are some pretty good ones too. Overall, as compared to older EA games, rFactor is better, but it still comes nowhere close to the driving experience you get in LFS. rFactor can be fun, but it is also frustrating because the cars just don't behave like you expect them to. The AI are far better in rFactor as compared to LFS though.

I have tried the nKPro demo, and found it felt and drives very much like rFactor. The sound is even worse in nK Pro. I also had some trouble with frame rates.

So, sorry for not being able to tell you about online use... I really should try it out there too.

[DeKo]

I own both, and enjoy both equally. i think Rfactor is a bit more pick up and play than LFS, but that LFS has more satisfaction as you get your lap down that tenth. Rfactor is also a single player game, so if my internet packs in, i still have something to fuel my driving needs (lets face it, lfs has basically no single player)

although now, with Rfactor getting Monza either tommorow or monday, which includes the old banked oval, in total, 6 combinations of the Road and oval track, including the classic GPL track (the full oval and road track)... Im definetely looking forward to this, but doesnt mean im going to stop playing LFS. i just play whatever im in the mood for.

edit: online in rfactor is allright, but not great. most servers are passworded, and the ones that arent are usually full of newbs that cant turn a corner. the occasional good close megane race is good though.

summing up, LFS is an online game, and rfactor is SP. thats my honest opinion.

[Jakg]

if you want mods - whats wrong with racer?

[Gabkicks]

cool i didnt know rfactor had a new demo :) it lets you try out the BF1 on nurburgring gp. :scratchch

[rc10racer]

Can anyone give me a link to the new demo with the f1 in it plz

[Jakg]

Can anyone give me a link to the new demo with the f1 in it plzhttp://www.gamershell.com/news/31788.html

i think thats it - enjoy!

[tristancliffe]

I'm in the same boat as Hallen, only I like it ever so slightly less.

I'm not quite prepared to sell my licence as I use it occasionally to 'learn' a track (either for discussing a track, working out photography points or to drive on it), and rFactor remains the best for this. Just don't expect it to behave ANYTHING like a real car would.

[Gabkicks]

yeah lol my expectations are so low that i will probably still be able to enjoy the bf1 around nurbugring :p. i'm about to try it in a few seconds

[Warper]

I just bought rFactor license for driving on a just released news scratch made version of the Nordschleife. You know why i'am now the luckiest man in the world? Because there is a 48hour money back guarantee... i used it right after 4 hours driving.

The game is just... it's so uncomplete - just the usability isn't really good. The fictional car models just don't look like cars, they do have so many mistakes. And i don't start talking about the physics... ;)

Greets,
Warper

[ajp71]

The only decent rivals out there are by Papy, nK is to uncomplete and ISI games appear to reinvent the laws of physics.

Both GPL/N2003 have online play and plenty of add on tracks. With mods GPL covers the 65/67/69 GP seasons as well as crazy ficticous CanAm engined single seaters that go earth shatteringly fast in a straight line but rather more realistically than most crazy power big engined mods don't do corners :)

N2003 caters for various Nascar series, (modern) Trans Am and the simply awesome GTP mod. It also has loads of addon tracks.

Both Papy sims have very good online code and support large grids (GPL 19/N2003 42) although to get decent racing you'll have to join a league.

Getting N2003 is hard. GPL is very easy to find, I suggest you look for the GPL 2004 demo, it's fully patched with the latest addons and supports MP, you can use all the addon tracks with it but you'll need to buy GPL (£5 look at budget game sections) to get the original GPL tracks.

if you want mods - whats wrong with racer?

90% of the time playing racer is spent either tweaking files to setup your wheel, flying madly out of control, rebooting or trying to downloading a fix.

[Bawbag]

if you want mods - whats wrong with racer?

Some people are subject to not reading posts properly and replying to quick, our Jak is one of them. I said I wanted another online game with the mods, because now that i've had LF, nothing compares to beating someone else in the same situation, or being beaten by them.

Thanks for all the comments, you can see why I was asking opinions, some people like it and some people don't, some people get a refund straight after it, some like Trsitan arn't particularly fond of the game but still want to keep it for some little things they like.

Seems my "Ask the audience" card has came out 50/50, which friend shall I call? :razz:

And thanks for your opinions, much appreciated, but as I said, i'm still 50/50.....:scratchch

[tristancliffe]

If you can afford it, then I'd say get it. If you really can't afford it or justify that cost, then don't.

As with all titles you have to take a chance when you buy it. But rFactor does offer a 2 day refund option. I'd suggest taking a look over at the RSC forum, finding a few mods that take your fancy, downloading them, then trialling rFactor with them. If you don't like it/them then you've wasted only a little time, and you'll know for certain.

I've been told that the F3 mod was good. It isn't, and since a few other more popular mods have come out people now seem to say it's crap. It IS crap, but I find it amusing that people only started admitting that when it wasn't the craze of the moment.
Apparently the karting mod is good. It's probably moved on since I tried it last, and I have no idea if it's currently in fashion.
There was another mod, for Meganes I think, that was apparently perfect. But it's probably crap now, for no other reason than something newer has come along.

As for tracks, some are good, some are bad.

With all of these, you MUST have the CORRECT (and not necessarily latest or official) versions of any mod to make it work online. Then you have to find someone online to play against (AI isn't satisfying for me ever), and at the last count only 12 people were online at any one time.

Finally, once you've found a popular, well reviewed mod, edited 150 ini files to make the steering work vaguely like a real cars, got the right versions of all the tracks, bought the cars (usually by the cheatcode I can't currently remember), and done everything you need to, you'll be able to play with some poor handling cars in a game where everyone calls you a fanboy if you so much as mention any other game/sim.

Oh, and LFS is crap according to rTractor lovers because we don't have the facility to add poor representations of real life cars in 50 different incompatible versions made by people with no understanding of cars, physics or art. But of course, that doesn't matter, because rFactor has modding. Hurrah!

Enjoy your game. In all seriousness I do recommend trying the 2 day refund thing out. But don't get your hopes up.



Edit: I forgot to mention the terrible graphics. It looks like a joke. Nowhere near real life. Some people have tried to impress me by showing screenshots, but not one has looked even remotely like reality. LFS on the other hand has a much better, more real look, with less bright colours, and cars that don't look photoshopped onto the track. The dynamic daylight cycle is nice though, with track lights coming on as it gets darker. But it never looks real. Ever.

[Boris Lozac]

Oh, and LFS is crap according to rTractor lovers because we don't have the facility to add poor representations of real life cars in 50 different incompatible versions made by people with no understanding of cars, physics or art. But of course, that doesn't matter, because rFactor has modding. Hurrah!

LOL! :thumb:

[sil3ntwar]

rfactor has the worst collision model ever. Wheels dont seem to collide and i can drive a formula car a few metres up the back of another before it seems to recognise it. Then theres the collisions with the barriers which seems to send the program into a random collision generator that flicks the car about in the most insane and unrealistic way.

[Jakg]

rTractorplease dont call it that, not only will you excite SamH, you will also give the SimTractor (real game!) followers a bad name!

[Hyperactive]

Everybody should defenately try GPL. A true landmark that still amazes while still being almost ten years old. With the latest graphics updates it doesn't look too bad either. Not too many mods, but quality over quantity is the key in GPL mods. Though online play can be quite a problem because the only way (just a guess, haven't played it online muself at all) to race against others is leagues. But everyone who considers to be a simracer should defenately own a copy :)

Hmm, is the rfactor really that expensive? I mean, to get into the "sim" one should really play it at least for a week, before making any judgements whether to like it or not. Hmm, whatabout GTL or the coming GTR2 then? Some like these...

[SamH]

please dont call it that, not only will you excite SamH, you will also give the SimTractor (real game!) followers a bad name!
::drools::

[Jakg]

::drools::see Tristan, you've got him horny now!:schwitz:

[deggis]

rfactor has the worst collision model ever. Wheels dont seem to collide and i can drive a formula car a few metres up the back of another before it seems to recognise it. Then theres the collisions with the barriers which seems to send the program into a random collision generator that flicks the car about in the most insane and unrealistic way.
Though we can't really afford to complain about that because LFS's collision model is also crap until it is fixed. :D Though even that in LFS you just sometimes suddenly get a free ticket to a moonflight after very minor collision with a another car, I think it is still a smaller problem than the way you can simply crash other cars in rFactor (and GTL/GTR2 too) and you practically don't get punished at all. I don't mean only damage, crashing just doesn't seem to affect grip at all etc.

[Hyperactive]

Though we can't really afford to complain about that because LFS's collision model is also crap until it is fixed. :D

Well, the LFS collision model is 100x more realistic, looks 100x more realistic and feels 100x realistic than in any other "sim". And those random moonflights really aren't that big problem in normal racing.

Get over it and focus all your frustration in this: linky linky (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=7653) :p

[ajp71]

Some people are subject to not reading posts properly and replying to quick, our Jak is one of them. I said I wanted another online game with the mods, because now that i've had LF, nothing compares to beating someone else in the same situation, or being beaten by them.

Racer does have online racing (never tried it) though I suspect it will be pretty empty and crap.

[SpaceMarineITA]

I have both LFS and Rfactor and i like them both.

However are a bit different.
And im not speaking about physics or mod quality (watch out for 2cv, ETCC 2003 and BMW M3 E46 mod, will be amazing... ;) )

I'm speaking about the "mindset" that you have when you play.

Rfactor imho explain all its fun when played in private servers with people that you know and that are good are driving. This is because the general level of players on public server is lower then lfs (due to not having things like team inferno setups imho), so there are noobs, wreckers etc...

However when played on championship is extremely fun, maybe for the more realistical aspect of motor racing, because it simulate real series on real tracks ( F1 1979 at nordscheife it's simply amazing!!).


On the opposite, if you want a fast run, lfs beat them all.
Because generally people on server are fast, or at least correct (or experienced a bit for not causing a crash at each turn), and the race starting process is faster: 5 laps, then again.
On rf usually servers are on pratice 1, then 2, 3 then qualy then warm up and then race lol

Rf is heavier about fps, and you need a good pc for run it well.
However graphic detail is higher then lfs (lfs seems a bit more natural on colors imho)
Netcode is good on both, no lag at all.

Both are good games. If you are a racing simulation player, imho you have to buy them both. There isn't nothing better on the simulation market. :thumb:

[Bawbag]

Yes but these are just mods, mods you have to find others to play with, not just open the game and go online to find some oher "racer" randoms.

I had racer for a while once, found it amusing for a few days then it died, over with that game.

Thanks for all the opinions and after reading Tristans huge Tracktor report i'm not wasting money which I shouldn't really be spending anyway as being your average pour college student I shouldn't be wasting it anywhere. :razz:

I don't think i'll try, but it was some mod for Nordschleife I liked the look of, saw a vid on google video and it looked tempting if unrealistic.

[SpaceMarineITA]

Imho is not hard to find people that plays certain mods:
all rf players know which mods are usually played and if you download those 6 or 7 mods you can play quite on all servers

However yes, the ring is yet based on GPlegends version.
There was a realistical version WIP for netkarpro, but i dunno at which state it is atm.

There are certain people too that are saying that with a conroe 6800 they should be able to extract the ps2 gt4 version of the ring from the emulator and converting it to 3dsmax. I'm yet searching infos about it, because i know people with 6800 so, if is true, it can be done. :)

[ajp71]

^^ I'd still suggest downloading GPL to get 1967 GPL public online games do the following:

1. Download and install the GPL 2004 demo http://www.3dgamers.com/news/more/1085839305/

2. Download GEM/Igor http://gplmz.bcsims.com/misc/GPLS_0422.exe

For extra tracks look here http://gpltd.bcsims.com/

For the 'ring you'll have to buy the game and copy the tracks folder across from the disc. It is well worth it but try some simpler tracks first.

[Bawbag]

Imho is not hard to find people that plays certain mods:
all rf players know which mods are usually played and if you download those 6 or 7 mods you can play quite on all servers

However yes, the ring is yet based on GPlegends version.
There was a realistical version WIP for netkarpro, but i dunno at which state it is atm.

There are certain people too that are saying that with a conroe 6800 they should be able to extract the ps2 gt4 version of the ring from the emulator and converting it to 3dsmax. I'm yet searching infos about it, because i know people with 6800 so, if is true, it can be done. :)

Another person who doesn't read posts, I was talking about "Racer" as I said at the end of teh paragraph...

[SpaceMarineITA]

Last thing about RF:

after 1.150 patch, rf evolved a lot from hallen point of view in the last page.

FF is now better, and cars are more comunicative.
In a certain sense it seems less permissive on errors, infact when i play rf and then return to lfs i feel to drive a bit more clean, quite less aggressive (not faster eh).

However if u are a good driver on rf or lfs you are good on the other too.
Only thing that you need a lot more on rf then lfs is a good setup making experience

[SpaceMarineITA]

Another person who doesn't read posts, I was talking about "Racer" as I said at the end of teh paragraph...

For racers you have to find forums of well estabilisted championship and you will find greger huttu too :)

[Bawbag]

No, "Racer" it's another game. :thumb:

[SpaceMarineITA]

No, "Racer" it's another game. :thumb:

oh lol ops, i have readed again the post, i missed some parts lol

Too late here, time to bed :D

[BWX232]

http://www.rfactorcentral.com/