= Tweaking not the same as cheating? [Archive]

DutchJok3r

19th February 2007, 16:21

Hi,

Sorry to say but I am wondering, if you tweak a car to give it more BHP then your cheating at the moment then or how is it?

If you give the XRT 20 BHP more then the original set is, then you wanna be faster then some 1 else by cheating then or?

Please explain to me why you need to tweak cars?

Don't be angry on me please because I'm confused about it and want some explenation for it.

Grtz

contourSVT

19th February 2007, 16:24

Tweaking is for offline use only, or.. for online if everyeone in the server has the tweak loaded. Theres no un-fair advantage you can have against another player online..

AndroidXP

19th February 2007, 16:25

You cannot run tweaks online, or more precisely, everyone on the server has to run the exact same tweak as the server host to make online play possible. Thus it is not "cheating" per se, although using LFSTweak to submit hotlaps will get you banned from uploading hotlaps ever again.

DutchJok3r

19th February 2007, 16:28

Ok thnx for explain :D But how do you use those Tweaks? If you can use it offline only then I know some crazy things hehehe xD

CSU1

19th February 2007, 16:28

So in effect YES it is cheating, and Lfs tweak ruined a perectly good sim imo.

AndroidXP

19th February 2007, 16:32

Ok thnx for explain :D But how do you use those Tweaks? If you can use it offline only then I know some crazy things hehehe xD
Demo racers can't use LFSTweak, at least not the V version.
So in effect YES it is cheating, and Lfs tweak ruined a perectly good sim imo.
I don't like LFSTweak either, but why do you think so?

DutchJok3r

19th February 2007, 16:35

Demo racers can't use LFSTweak, at least not the V version.

Ok then it holds up :) thnx anyway :D

sinbad

19th February 2007, 16:37

So in effect YES it is cheating, and Lfs tweak ruined a perectly good sim imo.

Huh??

LFSTweak was around long, long, before you even registered on this forum, so to say it has ruined LFS makes no sense. It's unnoticeable unless you use it. Nobody can cheat with it. It does no harm at all.

CSU1

19th February 2007, 16:43

Demo racers can't use LFSTweak, at least not the V version.

I don't like LFSTweak either, but why do you think so?

I was hoping someone would ask this:), why I don't approve of LFS Tweak:

It belongs a million miles away from racing.
It's childish.
Is in the same category as NoZ etc etc.
Most important of all it's wasting community time when more important projects could be in it's place, it's a childish distraction and as I said one big waste of time, I wish it could be bannished from these here forums....meh but some people, the LFS quarter mile challenge and what not.Oh lord! so many people will flame this but I don't care, I'll stand by my words to say this kind of add on belongs no where near what LFS stands for...but as I said...meh! some people:tilt:

@ Sinbad: Im not trying to shoot it down in flames and do realise it's been around long before I'm around...but that's far from the point.
I realise it must have takin some time to get LFS Tweak to the stage it's at now but for lords sake why? It has nothing to do with racing...An unfortunate waste of time.

Albieg

19th February 2007, 16:49

CSU1, it wasn't YOUR time. Someone else devoted his time to something he wanted to do without harming other people, so, childish as LFSTweak may seem to you, your assumptions are baseless.

AndroidXP

19th February 2007, 16:50

I kinda agree with you on your stance about LFSTweak, but saying it "ruined" LFS is quite far fetched IMO, and the only persons time that was wasted was the creators one and not yours or mine, so that point is actually completely irrelevant :tilt:

tristancliffe

19th February 2007, 16:50

I agree with both Sinbad AND CSU1 - I'd rather LFS Tweak never existed, because it attracts too many ricer idiots to the LFS scene, is immature (except for the minority that produce interesting alternatives of the LFS cars without being silly and just giving it 4000hp). But at the same time, it's harmless enough because I don't use it (tested it upon release though), doesn't get used online, and isn't going to be used much by the type of people I like to race against anyway.

As long as it's kept low key, and NEVER, EVER becomes part of LFS, or usable by demo players then I'm happy for it to exist, I'd just prefer it if it didn't.

CSU1

19th February 2007, 16:54

doesn't get used online, and isn't going to be used much by the type of people I like to race against anyway.
.

Oh yes it does and you'll be seeing a lot more of these nut's (http://www.lfsforum.net/showpost.php?p=341178&postcount=1)with their 400000bhp attracting other nut's giving LFS a stupid name.

AndroidXP

19th February 2007, 16:57

Oh yes it does and you'll be seeing a lot more of these nut's (http://www.lfsforum.net/showpost.php?p=341178&postcount=1)with their 400000bhp attracting other nut's giving LFS a stupid name.
Though, the "problem" they have is, that LFS doesn't distribute that tweak file automatically - they have to do it themselves, which is quite a nuisance and was probably the main reason that the previous versions of LFSTweak didn't see a lot of online usage. This won't be any different for the current version either.

steve

19th February 2007, 17:01

haha i like how most of you have your pantie's in a bunch over LFST, wow.. brings ricers and its like NoZ? hahahahah

CSU1

19th February 2007, 17:06

Though, the "problem" they have is, that LFS doesn't distribute that tweak file automatically - they have to do it themselves, which is quite a nuisance and was probably the main reason that the previous versions of LFSTweak didn't see a lot of online usage. This won't be any different for the current version either.

The gas thing about this sort of "problem" is that these noobs and noobs to be are like 4 year old children what they don't see they don't want, get rid of it/limit it to offline play whatever...because as I said it belongs a million miles away from an Online Racing Simulator.

I understand what you say too Sinbad, and as I said the last thing I want to do is slander the work of however many people involved in the production of LFS Tweak....but you have to admit at the end of they day the two LFS & LFS Tweak end at two totally different places, you must also agree to some point that the time speant on LFS Tweak 'could' have been time on physics/weather or another IMPOTANT area of LFS.

redruM69

19th February 2007, 17:09

Do you realize if it wasn't for LFSTweak, and LFSTweak's developers working with the LFS devs, that LFS wouldn't have cheat protection? Well, maybe it would, but it would of appeared much later.

LFSTweak has been around longer than you have even known about LFS.

:scratchch

redruM69

19th February 2007, 17:10

you must also agree to some point that the time speant on LFS Tweak 'could' have been time on physics/weather or another IMPOTANT area of LFS.

How am I gonna work on the physics and weather of a game I dont develop? :really:

AndroidXP

19th February 2007, 17:11

Helping cheat protection is one thing, it being publicly available another ;)
E2: Then again, it being public puts a certain force behind the "do implement cheat protection now" factor :scratchch
E:How am I gonna work on the physics and weather of a game I dont develop? :really:
That I don't understand either?

CSU1

19th February 2007, 17:14

Do you realize if it wasn't for LFSTweak, and LFSTweak's developers working with the LFS devs,

How am I gonna work on the physics and weather of a game I dont develop? :really:

Say again?

redruM69

19th February 2007, 17:15

Helping cheat protection is one thing, it being publicly available another ;)

LFSTweak wasn't officially released to the public until cheat protection was in place.

Say again?

We talked to the devs about getting cheat protection put in... We didnt DEVELOP anything in the game.

AndroidXP

19th February 2007, 17:17

Say again?
"Working with" means cooperating with the devs, not developing LFS itself ;)
Also I do consider cheat protection to be a very important factor of an online racing game, more so than weather or night racing IMO.
LFSTweak wasn't officially released to the public until cheat protection was in place.I didn't mean that LFSTweak was/is actively used for cheating - it's the idea of unauthored modding being available in LFS that I don't like, and LFSTweak is essentially modding :)

CSU1

19th February 2007, 17:18

"Working with" means cooperating with the devs, not developing LFS itself ;)
Also I do consider cheat protection to be a very important factor of an online racing game, more so than weather or night racing IMO.
"working with" yeah! "hey devs do ya mind if I make all the cars in your sim have monster truck wheels and drive like a rocket"? "Working with" lmao!

I was using(physics\weather) those two as an example of an important area of development Android.

AndroidXP

19th February 2007, 17:20

I was using those two as an example of an important area of development.
Even then I think that any time invested in cheat protection is a time well spent. It is also something that has to be done sooner or later, and the sooner it is implemented, the less we are annoyed by cheaters.

CSU1

19th February 2007, 17:26

Even then I think that any time invested in cheat protection is a time well spent. It is also something that has to be done sooner or later, and the sooner it is implemented, the less we are annoyed by cheaters.

Now we are going slightly OT: has to be time well spent indeed, could have been time well spent was my point in starting all this bull.

I didn't mean that LFSTweak was/is actively used for cheating - it's the idea of unauthored modding being available in LFS that I don't like, and LFSTweak is essentially modding=======Well said :)

Bob Smith

19th February 2007, 17:42

LFS Tweak also makes it easier to understand LFS physics as you can change one variable at a time and see what the effects are. Useful for my research.

LFST is modding, and that is fun too. It's just a shame the current version doesn't have enough features (yet) to re-create real cars, but from my point of view that's one less distraction so I can concentrate on the things I should be doing.

CSU1

19th February 2007, 17:52

LFS Tweak also makes it easier to understand LFS physics

You said it!

Which is information that should have been kept locked up in the Dev's office somewhere/kept away from the countless coders out there....just take a look here (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=19820) and here (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=19780&highlight=cheat) and lets not even start on what can be found on other sites.

sinbad

19th February 2007, 18:10

You said it!

Which is information that should have been kept locked up in the Dev's office somewhere/kept away from the countless coders out there....just take a look here (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=19820) and here (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=19780&highlight=cheat) and lets not even start on what can be found on other sites.

Why should it be locked away? After all, isn't the goal to have real-life physics in the end? Physics does not equal code.

Bob likes to experiment with things, but he's not looking for code exploits or cheats that could be harmful to LFS. LFSTweak has done far more to prevent code exploits/hacks/cheats being done than anyone else.
I bet LFSTweak has helped with the online protection of LFS more than any other single contributing factor.

Eldanor

19th February 2007, 18:21

I was hoping someone would ask this:), why I don't approve of LFS Tweak:

It belongs a million miles away from racing.
It's childish.
Is in the same category as NoZ etc etc.
Most important of all it's wasting community time when more important projects could be in it's place, it's a childish distraction and as I said one big waste of time, I wish it could be bannished from these here forums....meh but some people, the LFS quarter mile challenge and what not.Oh lord! so many people will flame this but I don't care, I'll stand by my words to say this kind of add on belongs no where near what LFS stands for...but as I said...meh! some people:tilt:

Yes, I'm going to flame you!! :D

Every feature of LFS will atract ricers, the drag strip, the personal skins, the physics engine, etc. Sould we remove the autocross area or the drag strip just to avoid some lamers?

NO. Maybe proper engine/gearbox damage and brake wear/fade will put things harder for the casual ricer, but until then, I'm having tons of fun with LFSTweak making a replica of my car and taking it to the autocross area.

Who cares if people make 40000 BHP cars? you are not going to see them in a server!!

CSU1

19th February 2007, 18:30

Who cares if people make 40000 BHP cars? you are not going to see them in a server!!

Wrong!:D

Infiniti

19th February 2007, 18:35

Personally, I played with LFST for a little bit offline. I had a lot of fun changing variables making cars I liked incredibly powerful. It kept me entertained inbetween new patches when I get bored. Also if the internet was out, or since I'm in the states. Sometimes when I get on to race, everyone else in the world is sleeping, so I like to dink around offline from time to time. Like people have said, it has had more positive than negative effects on lfs. You're arguing over something that is totally opinionated. If you don't like it don't use it. Your loss :shrug:

Eldanor

19th February 2007, 18:43

Wrong!:D

Did I miss something? AFAIK you cannot use a tweak online if everyone doesn't share the same tweak.

AndroidXP

19th February 2007, 19:07

Did I miss something? AFAIK you cannot use a tweak online if everyone doesn't share the same tweak.
This is true. A normal racer who doesn't use LFSTweak himself will never see a tweaked car online.

micha1980de

19th February 2007, 19:17

obviously you must have missed something, cause he says you're wrong.
assuming that he's seen online cheaters (i've seen a few too in videos).
But games have been and will be cheated, thats in the nature of man to go against rules just to bend/break them, because they are there is enough.
in fact these "cheaters" need to have a few working braincells left-over. Because cheating (at least i imagine it that way) online, must be quite hard to achieve.
In the end look and the demo-scene, many bright brains fiddling with their software-demo-thingys are now respected programmers.

they've grown up, like these teen-aged-wall-sprayers, they'll grow up too, just to let their place to be filled with another jung-hot-head...

the circle of life i assume.

To be honest, i'm gratefull YOU are not in charge for the development of this physics-simulator (physics-simulators should be "by any means all" ways changeable) cause not long ago powerful men tried to banish things they just didn't liked.
(see history of last few-hundred years)

in short, just be a bit more tolerant, and wish you'll never meet yourself while beeing a child...

regards

Sticky-Micky

19th February 2007, 19:44

not really sure what that ARNO kid did, but i have just watched a replay of him on the conedodgers server and, man he has the NOZZZ fitted to that car LOL

redruM69

20th February 2007, 01:40

Wrong!:D

So lemme get this straight... You DO care if some kid in a different country is playing on his own offline, with a 40000hp car. And they paid for S2 for that matter...

Please give us more info on how this effects YOU?

it's the idea of unauthored modding being available in LFS that I don't like, and LFSTweak is essentially modding

Lets put this in a different light...
With your logic, once you own something, bought with your own hard earned money, it is bad to modify it. Even if it effects nobody else.
Hmmm... :scratchch
I guess I ought to put my Subaru back to stock, and my computer too, etc. etc....

AndroidXP

20th February 2007, 08:45

Hey hey, don't fake quotes here :p

The key word in there is 'unauthored' (if that word even exists, you know, unsupervised). I don't say that modding in general is bad, but when nobody takes the role of quality control then I'd fear it would get out of hand pretty quickly. Sure quality mods would probably come out at some point, but if possible this should be managed in an official way, meaning that the otherwise unavoidable heapload of shitty mods was filtered out first and providing a way to update the mod through LFS, as to avoid version mismatch hell.

Now back on topic regarding LFST, please don't feel offended as it sure was quite a bunch of work to put that together (I'm a coder myself, so I kinda know where you're coming from), but right at the moment LFST is not capable of producing quality modifications - quite on the contrary, it is so limited yet easily accessible that it almost exclusively produces the dreaded "lol 5000hp" mods. This is the reason I don't like it, nothing else.

11SuLLy11

20th February 2007, 09:27

can you really tweak your car :scratchch damn thats my new excuse for being off the pace :razz:

radweld

20th April 2007, 12:06

Sorry to hijack an old thread but how much cheating is going on? I ask because there has been loads of times where i have had a look back at a replay, i drive the same line, get on the power at the same time yet im much slower on a straight than the person im following and they pull car lengths on me.

I just need re-assurance its just because im slow in some way. If people are cheating on a regular basis then i no longer want part of LFS because whats the point.

I have had S2 for a long time but only recently started racing on line, i often wonder how people manage to exit corners so much faster than i can, i realise alot of it is due to my driving but after reading this it makes me wonder.

Jakg

20th April 2007, 12:10

ive never seen a subtle cheater, they tend to get MASSIVELY faster (ie in about half a second their going 200), its just the fact their better than you i'm afraid

Cheating is very rare

Bean0

20th April 2007, 12:19

ive never seen a subtle cheater, they tend to get MASSIVELY faster (ie in about half a second their going 200), its just the fact their better than you i'm afraid

Cheating is very rare

Just because you've never seen them doesn't mean they're not there, the best cheaters will be the ones that are so subtle they go un-noticed.

I have a mate who used to use cheats in Counter Strike, he was a pretty good player anyway, and didn't take the p!ss with the cheats. Hardly anyone ever spotted him cheating, but there were a few of us who knew fine well he was.

It certainly improves your aim scouting someone who is speed hacking about the place ;)

Shotglass

20th April 2007, 19:43

that it almost exclusively produces the dreaded "lol 5000hp" mods. This is the reason I don't like it, nothing else.

at least those prove a point about the physics of lfs
besides whats wrong with being silly once in a while ? (if i wasnt myself i would now make a joke about you being german at heart :p )

sinbad

20th April 2007, 21:59

ajp71

20th April 2007, 22:42

I think LFS Tweak has seriously contributed to cutting cheating in LFS, without it a lot more people would be changing these (and possibly other) values manually, which isn't terribly hard. By blowing it out in the open there's no secret of what can be done, there's motivation to add cheat prevention and there are less people poking around in the memory at risk of finding new exploits lying about.

A flat 12 FZR with 750bhp and a low downforce set round Westhill soon changes your opinion of the LFST and sounds lovely ;)

CSU1

21st April 2007, 01:42

:riceboy:

:iagree:

:nod:

I agree with both Sinbad AND CSU1 - I'd rather LFS Tweak never existed, because it attracts too many ricer idiots to the LFS scene

Well said.

I was dissapointed to learn Bob was a Ricer! though;)(j/k)

LFS Tweak also makes it easier to understand LFS physics as you can change one variable at a time and see what the effects are. Useful for my research.

E:

<This is priceless:The mentality of budding new drivers>
can you really tweak your car :scratchch damn thats my new excuse for being off the pace :razz:

nihil

21st April 2007, 09:55

Heaven forbid that anything should sully the purity of the great LFS....

^
^
^
^
That's sarcasm, by the way...

EeekiE

21st April 2007, 19:55

I used it to try and replicate my own hatchback to see how similar it was.

UnChosenX

22nd April 2007, 00:00

LFS Tweek has been around for so long I don't even remember, but it is one of the best things for this game, this game get's so boring driving the same slow crap every time.

With the tweek, you can make stats of real cars, your own cars, or whatever, and then race them with friends...

I think the tweek was the best thing that came out for lfs.

(They should have a server where they allow the tweek to be used and cars to be different, to see who can tweek the fastest car)

zeugnimod

22nd April 2007, 09:55

LFS Tweek has been around for so long I don't even remember, but it is one of the best things for this game, this game get's so boring driving the same slow crap every time.

I think the tweek was the best thing that came out for lfs.

I think the S2 licence was the best thing that came out for LFS.

There are many, many faster cars than the "boring slow crap" XFG, XRG and XRT as you call them. :shrug: