Live for All Speed. [Archive]

neglouseight

8th February 2007, 20:08

I'm not posting this to start some off the topic discussion. Or to have people flame about threads that had been posted years ago. Some topics need to resurface from time to time so they aren't lost forever.

Live for Speed is wonderful, and I love it. :) In it's title it says Live for Speed, doesn't say Live for four wheel automobile racing Speed. Why not make it all racing. Making LFS the Meca for online racing fans.

What I am picturing. Imagine the realism we already have in LSF, but you are racing your motorcyle on the tracks we have now. New challenges for racers, skinners, and setups. New types of racers will be coming to LFS.

I'm a Formula One fan, so prefer that type of racing above all else, but in the interest of community and all racers everywhere. Adding more types of race cars such as a CART/INDY type, NASCAR type, Rally type, even Truck Racing. MotoCross, SuperCross, MotoGP, World Super Bike.

Now let's take this further, we now have the best online community for Cars, Bikes and Trucks, why not power boat racing? There are many types of boat racing. Currently some of the LFS tracks are near water. Even more challenges come in to effect now.

New types of races, that aren't lap based, but more like rally, where you do one very long track, that is broken in to sections.

BenjiMC

8th February 2007, 20:12

theres a thought. but it's not half gonna take AGES to do. also the main priority now, i'd say is probably for 4 wheeled action...

although maybe a bike release in S4, if it goes that far?

wheel4hummer

8th February 2007, 20:13

although maybe a bike release in S4, if it goes that far?

Even S3 isn't absolutely officially confirmed.

joen

8th February 2007, 20:14

plus. there won't be an S4. S3 is certain though.

I think boat racing is taking it a step too far though. Although it could be fun, it would require massive physics additions. And Scawen has his hands full on completing the car physics alone.
Scawen likes bikes and there are some hints he might want to do that, but the problem for players lie in the controls though. What would you use to realistically drive a bike? A steering wheel? A mouse?
Your other suggestions are feasible though and have been discussed many times before.
Me, I'm waiting for the day we'll have karts... *dreams away*

Nathan_French_14

8th February 2007, 20:15

ummm, well the bikes,trucks etc sound very good fun, but boat racing? i really dont see the point in that, i think that'll take the true point of lfs, IMHO, none of this is ever going to happen, the only thing i think will be introduced is new cars and tracks, and not until a very long time, free roaming.

frenchy

djgizmo68

8th February 2007, 20:33

How exactly do you simulate a bike Cockpit, without buying old ManxTT Arcade cabs?

Hankstar

8th February 2007, 21:00

Another one :D And he's added boats to the list - that's a new one :)

Bottom line: bikes & boats are something that I don't think will ever happen in LFS.

The "easy" thing about producing a car sim is that you sit down to drive, just as you sit down at a desk. All you need then is good physics and a wheel and you can transfer your RL driving skills easily. There's no quantum leap of faith needed to fool your brain that you're driving. You don't have g-forces to work on but your brain adjusts quickly, relying on your vision, hearing and force feedback if you have a FF wheel.
edit: djgizmo - I love those Manx TT arcade machines :up:

Bikes require you not to just to sit on the seat and operate the controls. The rider is an essential part of the machine, using his weight & changing position on the bike to change direction and keep it upright. There's a reason Logitech hasn't produced a set of handlebars for home use: they're only 25% of the bike experience.

Boats don't need much argument against them. Boats don't enjoy anything like the popularity of cars (or bikes) - not because people don't like boats, but because everyone (well, practically everyone) lives on land and travels across it every day. Even people who don't drive are able to play car games relatively easily. Boat racing in all its forms is great stuff but I really don't think the need or interest can jusitfy the time & effort it would take the 3-man developer team to simulate boats & water properly. The focus in LFS has always been cars and I hope it stays that way - I'm not even keen on seeing trucks! Apart from the question of popularity, compared to accurately simulating the physics of water - a constantly moving body of particles which constantly influence & interact with each other and whatever's floating on them - simulating a solid surface like tarmac is a breeze.

I don't hold much hope for most of what you listed, but I would definitely welcome rally stages :up: We just need a good rally car...

djgizmo68

8th February 2007, 21:04

Imagine How much it would cost to have a full Force Feedback Bike cab.... you would need to cover the surrounding space in foam!

Hankstar

8th February 2007, 21:48

Sick :D
Imagine if your FF bike-thing could simulate a high-side and just flick you over the top of your monitor :tilt: Mrs Hank would never let me play anything ever again!

[ADT]sid

8th February 2007, 22:08

he forget planes :P

wheel4hummer

8th February 2007, 22:42

ROFL, rock crawling isnt really speed...

Hankstar

8th February 2007, 22:48

sid;332872']he forget planes :P

And dirigibles for that matter :D

Bob Smith

8th February 2007, 23:21

The devs have stated in the past that LFS could simulate any that is on wheels, or more specifically is commonly raced on wheels. So boats would be out, trucks and bikes could be included in later releases.

Also Scawen has mentioned that S3 might not actually happened as planned, due to the time it's taken to get from S1 to S2, the time period to S3 is likely to be much longer still so he may adopt another method for releasing the games content. Although that's as much as he said, I would guess more, smaller updates for content, possibly paid for individually (although that would complicate matters further). For example the rally pack, although it's unclear whether that's still to be included as part of S2 or not.

Forbin

9th February 2007, 03:22

<snip>
Bikes require you not to just to sit on the seat and operate the controls. The rider is an essential part of the machine, using his weight & changing position on the bike to change direction and keep it upright. There's a reason Logitech hasn't produced a set of handlebars for home use: they're only 25% of the bike experience.
<snip>
While it's true that body position can affect the center of gravity and therefore the grip level and the ease with which the bike wheelies/stoppies, it's the handlebars that get the bike leaned over in the first place.

It's a common misconception that bikes are steered with the body, and that's just simply not the case.

Hankstar

9th February 2007, 04:16

Having ridden bikes before I was driving I probably should've thought about that and clarified my point - perhaps by saying "...using his weight and changing his position to help change direction/move through corners faster" or something similar (although I didn't say moving the rider's weight was the only thing that changed direction). If you just sit up perfectly straight all the time you're either going to go really slow or just fall over :)

But I did point out that merely having a set of bars on your desk is only representing a fraction of how you control a bike, which illustrates that I do know what they're for ;)

neglouseight

9th February 2007, 16:50

Why is it so hard not to flame? ;) Anyway, this is not about one persons personal likes or dislikes. I don't really watch power boat racing, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't have something like the realism in LFS. Just like I personally find Drifting the lamest form of "racing" there is in the world. There are people that enjoy doing it, and I welcome that because it brings other aspects in to the fold. Do I like it personally? No not at all, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be there.

I was going to mention planes, as a person that has hosted several air races with another sim. In all honesty I felt even saying boats would be to far out of the box for people here to understand, but that it was worth a shot for discussion purposes. Boat racing wouldn't be much different then autocross now. You'd have a flat area of water, with markers laying the track. The tire smoke effect would be changed slightly for a spray effect, the surface of the water wouldn't have 3D waves. The surface could be set as a really bumpy road as in LFS.

I'd like to see two wheeled action before I ever saw boats, it would be fun having a bike team to race for. Would like to have it as real as possible like cars in LFS. I also understand though the control system. For me, I physically can't use a steering wheel for LSF so I have to use a game control. So with a bike I'd still be using a game controler.

I see more types of racers a better thing. You will get cross over racers to try other things. Heck I might try Drifting (Seriosuly doubt it lol)

fragile_dog

9th February 2007, 17:45

In all honesty I felt even saying boats would be to far out of the box for people here to understand, but that it was worth a shot for discussion purposes. Boat racing wouldn't be much different then autocross now. You'd have a flat area of water, with markers laying the track. The tire smoke effect would be changed slightly for a spray effect, the surface of the water wouldn't have 3D waves. The surface could be set as a really bumpy road as in LFS.

But that misses the whole point of lfs, IF scavier had the desire to make boat racing, im sure they would try to do it properly, and all the physics effects would take ages to do. From what you said, it would just be like driving on a wet road, but in a boat model :/.

neglouseight

10th February 2007, 08:46

Hankstar

11th February 2007, 00:43

Could say the same for the cars, there is no track temps, no air temps, no air morsture or any kind of weather. No slick spots on track, no dirt or gravel tossed on the track after someone has a off. No oil on the track after a crash. But thats not the point. :)

The post isn't about soley boat racing. It's about all types of racing. Bringing as many types of racing in to one online community with one software front end client.

Responding to your first paragraph, LFS is still in progress so it's highly probable that some of those things will be included in the future. They've all been discussed at length and I'm positive the team has a long list of stuff they want to include in LFS.

As for your second point, you should keep in mind that just one developer, Scawen, does all the physics and he currently has his hands full with improving how the cars handle on dry tarmac & dirt (and lots of other stuff I & most others haven't even thought of, no doubt). Until he's satisifed with the cars I don't see much hope for boats, Red Bull air races or hovercrafts. That's how it's worked so far (and it works quite well) and that seems to be how it'll stay for the moment (so please don't respond with "hire more coders" or any other business advice because the devs, and everyone here, have heard it all many times over). At this point I think it's extremely unrealistic to expect anything with less than four wheels, let alone anything without any wheels at all. That's not flaming, it's merely how I see the situation :shrug:

There really aren't many simulators that include every single machine that can possibly be raced - in fact, I can't think of one! There are many games that include aircraft, bikes, cars and boats but most of them begin with "Grand Theft Auto"... LFS is focused on cars and I think (and hope) that's how it will stay. All the decent sims I know concentrate on one form of vehicle and I think that's how sim-fans like it.

wark

11th February 2007, 00:47

Do one thing and do it well. Make it the best.

Why doesn't IN-N-OUT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_N_Out_Burger) make anything other than burgers? Same answer.

Hankstar

11th February 2007, 00:56

Dammit wark, you said it - in seven words! God I wish I could do that :D Bloody caffeine :tilt:

neglouseight

11th February 2007, 03:18

You misunderstand, I had never said I wanted this now. No, I was bringing up a discussion about future, not S3. Don't undermind me by thinking I would ever say hire more Developers. I've been on countless beta teams where the core programer/developer was one person. I know how long things take how you want to get it right before the public sees it.

This was a discussion on being multiple elements together over time. Being the world of racing together as one online community under the banner of Life for Speed.

Seems people here have a fear if you add something you lose something. My whole point is in the future once the car element is what the developer wanted, why not add other types of things. I never said drop everything and start making bikes and boats.

I'm a firm believer for the past 15 years when it comes to sims make the physics and the world modeling correct, and all other elements fall in to place.

I've said it before I love LFS (Even being a Mac user) want it to be the best racing sim it can possibly be.

I've from the East we don't have In-and-Out haven't been to one in years. I would find it making more sense if LFS was Live for Cars. ;) But it's just Live for Speed and speed can mean anything. Only users seem to limit it to 4 wheels.

JJ72

11th February 2007, 03:30

I am not really sure if the devs are interested in boat racing or snowmobile racing etc etc etc...and what you are proposing, is a project that would span decades. because it's just too vast and too much details has to be done right.

hydrodynamics and aerodynamics are a headache, and now we still only have very primitive aerodynamics after 4 years of development.

I think in every project you must have a realistic framework on what you are trying to achieve, cause if you don't do that you will loose focus and couldn't progress. and in LFS, small has always been beautiful.

*and car guys, boat guys, bike guys never really come together do they?

neglouseight

11th February 2007, 03:37

I agree, you need to make the tools for realism top thing to do. Then added other elements will be less of a headache later.

I dunno everyone I know that builds choppers also does cars,
hell most of them live on lakes. lol. :)

Motordirex

26th March 2007, 01:35

God I hate forums sometimes...*sigh*

Heres my better late then never reply.

All the decent sims I know concentrate on one form of vehicle and I think that's how sim-fans like it.

No its not, thats just the way it went for the longest time.

Gran Tourismo and Tourist Trophy. Both for Playstation and two of best console sims ever made. Gran Tourismo set the stage for racing sims, and what did they do, took it that much further with a bike sim.

EA Sports with EA Superbike 2000/2001 and EA's Sports Car GT for PC. SCGT was one of the first games for PC that had a cult following of mods, cars and leagues. I ran a touring car league with SCGT 5 years ago and it was awesome. What killed it was only being able to race 4 cars online at a time. EA Superbike 2001 is better then Playstations TT as far as physics go. Graphics arent as nice, but the ride was alot more true to real racing then any other bike sim made. EA Superbike 2001 like its SCGT cousin, lacked in the online play.

Bikes are harder to ride in sims then cars are naturaly...the same in real life. 90% of motorcycle fans are enthusiasts, meaning they also ride. There are wack loads more of armchair racers out there for cars then motorcycles.

Racing bikes isnt for everyone. If you havent ridden a real bike, or raced a bike sim, you have no right to say that you hope LFS stays with 4 wheels. If you have ridden or raced a bike sim and dont think bikes for LFS is a good idea, its because its to hard for you and you cant do it. Cars are 80% car, 20% driver...bikes are 20% bike, 80% rider.

As far as a suitable control for bikes, to date Ive found a Dualshock PS2 controller the best bet so far. I have a set of Yamaha handle bars, but the response in the bars isnt as good and you dont get a good enough feel (the bars fault, not the games). You dont need to simulate the leaning angles of the rider, the game does it already. And body transfer has nothing to do with being that much later on the brakes, or that much earlier on the gas then the other guy.

On a final note, forget boats, snow mobiles and planes. The next logical step for LFS away from cars would be bikes, naturaly.

CSU1

26th March 2007, 01:42

Forbin

26th March 2007, 04:37

<snip>
Gran Tourismo and Tourist Trophy. Both for Playstation and two of best console sims ever made. Gran Tourismo set the stage for racing sims, and what did they do, took it that much further with a bike sim.

EA Sports with EA Superbike 2000/2001 and EA's Sports Car GT for PC. SCGT was one of the first games for PC that had a cult following of mods, cars and leagues. I ran a touring car league with SCGT 5 years ago and it was awesome. What killed it was only being able to race 4 cars online at a time. EA Superbike 2001 is better then Playstations TT as far as physics go. Graphics arent as nice, but the ride was alot more true to real racing then any other bike sim made. EA Superbike 2001 like its SCGT cousin, lacked in the online play.
<snip>
If you haven't already, check out TT Superbikes (aka Suzuki TT Superbikes).

http://ps2.ign.com/objects/489/489081.html

NOT to be confused with Blackbean's pile of crap called Suzuki Superbikes II: Riding Challenge.

Hankstar

26th March 2007, 05:06

All the decent sims I know concentrate on one form of vehicle and I think that's how sim-fans like it.

No its not, thats just the way it went for the longest time.

Gran Turismo and Tourist Trophy. Both for Playstation and two of best console sims ever made. Gran Turismo set the stage for racing sims, and what did they do, took it that much further with a bike sim.

EA Sports with EA Superbike 2000/2001 and EA's Sports Car GT for PC. SCGT was one of the first games for PC that had a cult following of mods, cars and leagues. I ran a touring car league with SCGT 5 years ago and it was awesome. What killed it was only being able to race 4 cars online at a time. EA Superbike 2001 is better then Playstations TT as far as physics go. Graphics arent as nice, but the ride was a lot more true to real racing then any other bike sim made. EA Superbike 2001 like its SCGT cousin, lacked in the online play.

Bikes are harder to ride in sims then cars are naturally...the same in real life. 90% of motorcycle fans are enthusiasts, meaning they also ride. There are wack loads more of armchair racers out there for cars than motorcycles.

Racing bikes isnt for everyone. If you havent ridden a real bike, or raced a bike sim, you have no right to say that you hope LFS stays with 4 wheels. If you have ridden or raced a bike sim and dont think bikes for LFS is a good idea, its because its to hard for you and you cant do it. Cars are 80% car, 20% driver...bikes are 20% bike, 80% rider.

First, Gran Turismo isn't a sim by any stretch of the imagination (haven't played Tourist Trophy). You can't even induce proper, controllable oversteer in it, even in a 500+hp RWD car, which is just one of its uniquely un-sim-like qualities (we'll leave the laughable modding, lack of damage, inexplicable tyre behaviour and questionable car inclusions for another time). Sports Car GT was a ham-fisted attempt at a car sim and subsequently got hosed by several titles that came after it (and even some that came before it), which speaks volumes about its quality. I never raced it online - 4 cars only? Hardly worth calling it an online sim imho.

I like where you say (essentially) that if I'm not a rider, I can have no valid argument against bikes in LFS because I don't know what I'm on about - but then if I am a rider and still don't think they're a good idea for LFS then I'm basically too crap to be able to do it properly or I'm scared of being beaten by some guy on the internet (that doesn't stop me from playing LFS with cars now, why would it stop me from playing LFS with bikes later?). Great way to try and kill the discussion before it even begins.

I grew up riding motorcycles, but don't much anymore - I was a rider, so there I am in a third category, nimbly circumventing the terms of discussion you laid down :tilt: I still love bikes, I still stay up all night watching MotoGP (Stoner/Ducati ftw) and still hop on one whenever I can (which isn't often enough).

I think that LFS will just stay where it is. Games can try and do everything (GTA, for example, has bikes, cars, boats, planes, choppers, etc and does a great job) but a simulation should be focused. Flight sims don't have you racing to your Learjet in your accurately-modelled Porsche Carrera, people who buy a WW2 game for one thing (like the combat and accurately-modelled weapons) aren't going to be interested in how quickly a Sherman tank reloads - just that it does, car sims don't crossover into boats and bike sims don't include cars. It's not just conservatism or stubbornness, it makes sense to the player and the game developer. If crossover sims actually worked with players and sold well, you can bet EA would've released one already.

Just on the bike game topic, I've played a few bike games on my PS2 (MotoGP 4 most recently, not fun) and not one of them had me immersed the way a good car sim does. I've ridden and driven both for ages and the difference between sitting on a bike and being an integral part of its weight, balance and control and just sitting in a car and really only being involved mechanically is vast. Too vast, imho, for any PC game to be able to simulate properly without the right equipment.

In the end, if they include bikes in LFS, I think you'd just end up with a whole bunch of people paying for a whole bunch of stuff they'll never use (either the cars or the bikes), or you'll get people not wanting to buy the game in the first place because it has a bunch of stuff they're not interested in. I think that's why people love the dedicated, focused aspect of simulations -they're focused on one thing that they love. It's like a hobby - one single thing that's obsessed over by the hobbyist.

OK, sorry to go on like that. It's a slow work day :tilt:

Motordirex

26th March 2007, 07:07

If youve played the Gran Tourismo series from the beginning, youd know your statement about the game is incorrect. GT1 was the first kick at the can for the Playstation to test the waters, then GT2 came along and really got into it. The driving from the 2 first versions were alot harder because GT3 and 4 had their own version of traction control. They moved away from a real sim and made it a litle more easier to drive for the average gamer. Game companies want to attract people from all gaming genres. If that wasnt the case, GT3 and 4 cars would be just as difficult to use.

SGCT paved the way for alot of sims. Yes it sucked for online but if not for that game, alot including even LFS might not be what it is today. SCGT: great game, now how do we improve on this? Here we are.

I think your going completely overboard by saying if you cant mimic a motorcycle proper in a sim its not worth it...thats just retarded. Whats mimiced in a car sim...force feeback is really all there is.

Do you feel the g-forces? No.

Does your stomach go into into your chest when you take a sim car through Paddock Hill Bend at Brands Hatch? No.

Thers no "real" sense of speed...only compared to when you go from a slower car to a faster car. I can go along the highway at 120kmh in my Prelude and it feel alot faster in real life then any sim doing twice or 3 times the speed. Its a simulation!

Simulation: A simulation is an imitation of some real thing, state of affairs, or process. Simulation is used in many contexts, including the modeling of natural systems or human systems in order to gain insight into their functioning.

Simulations are never 100% real, so why shoot down the idea of bikes because of the real control physics involved in real racing? You cannot beat Casey Stoner at Phillip Island in a video game and expect the same result in real life. No top notch sim racer will ever be able to drive as good in real life as they do in the game under the same conditions.

LFS hasnt even sold more then 10,000 licenses. And for a game this good, I cant understand why...except for this: there are other sims out there and they are all competing for the same bit of simulator real estate. There arent any bike sims out there for online like we'd get with LFS. Lots of bike games, yes, but no online sims. Why not be the first and set the stage.

If its a matter of funding...well f*&k, I'll fund it myself to see bikes race around the wicked circuits of LFS. How much do I need?

Sorry to rant but you pissed me off...haha

MAGGOT

26th March 2007, 11:56

If you knew about real car physics you'd know that no GT game was ever a simulation, despite what the shiney box says. GT 1 and 2 were rediculously easy to drive. I have all 4, and I enjoyed all 4, but that doesn't mean its a sim. They are borderline arcade games, not simulations.

Your comment about g-forces and such regarding car sims; true. Car sims don't have G-forces. Bike sims don't have them either. But the integral part of racing bikes is the weight transfer of the rider. The way they lean in corners and all that jazz. Without being able to control or feel that movement, you simply have a car sim with two wheels instead of four. THAT is the problem with bike sims.

"LFS hasnt even sold more then 10,000 licenses." Wrong there, man. Over a year ago it was confirmed that LFS has sold over 20 000.

I understand you want bikes in LFS. Quite frankly I'd enjoy them, too, despite the problems they create.

Motordirex

26th March 2007, 15:38

"LFS hasnt even sold more then 10,000 licenses." Wrong there, man. Over a year ago it was confirmed that LFS has sold over 20 000.

I understand you want bikes in LFS. Quite frankly I'd enjoy them, too...

Sweet on both comments!

Sad to think though with GT4 that it sold over a million copies in Japan alone its first week. But I think thats a good thing because you dont have 980,000 other idiot racers clogging up the servers and causing crashes on track...the LFS demo was bad enough for that. Games like this weed out the haves and have nots when it comes to sim racing. If its hard, back to Mario Kart there Princess.

Well if any development of a LFS bike sim does come about, sign me up for testing. ;)

Gimpster

26th March 2007, 17:00

I personaly do not feel that with todays technology we can simulate a morotcycle in such a way for it to feel as natural in the simulation as a car currently can feel in a simulation. So much of the bike experance is the physical sensation and the way the g-forces play on you and the bike. Sure its posible to simulate but as a biker I woudl never use them in LFS.

EeekiE

26th March 2007, 17:39

Boats are one thing but TRUCKS? C'mon!

Maelstrom

26th March 2007, 18:14

Boats are one thing but TRUCKS? C'mon!

You don't like truck race? C'mon!

http://www.truckracing.de/truckrace/de/videos/teil2/index.html

edit: I may have misunderstood you message

EeekiE

26th March 2007, 18:27

It was primarily a joke :scratchch

But I thought it was refering to the likes of F-150's and other half-baked identity crisis vehicles.

The video is pretty funny :razz: although it does seem like a bit of a gimmick. But I bet it would be actually quite challenging :thumbsup:

Motordirex

26th March 2007, 18:49

w126

26th March 2007, 19:30

I hope that in S3 phase LFS is going to become more diverse and versatile instead of just providing more of the same. Bikes? Why not? It is very hard to do properly because of controller limitations, but LFS is already very configurable and innovative when it comes to controllers, so there is hope for some more great ideas in this area. It would be hard not to mention rallying here, with an appropriate new game mode. Also some off-road stuff in the spirit of Screamer 4x4 could be very interesting, deformable terrain, rain... :)

However, boats and planes just don't make any sense. Trying to do them would mean losing focus completely.

ZORER

26th March 2007, 19:46

What about a "cheetah" added to LFS?:))
Simulating a cheetah and chasing a gazelle .:D

mrodgers

27th March 2007, 00:18

What about a "cheetah" added to LFS?:))
I remember on TV when I was a kid, they had a drag race with a cheetah, a horse, and a Porsche 911. Guess which one kicked everyone's a$$?

A hint, the horse got spooked from the Porsche and perhaps the BF1 in LFS might have had a chance. :D

Motordirex

27th March 2007, 00:35

What about a "cheetah" added to LFS?:))
Simulating a cheetah and chasing a gazelle .:D

Will the gazelle already been injured and or will the Cheetah be with friends...so many factors you need to think about with a wild life simulator. Click here (http://dajmin.atspace.com/stfu/) to see what I mean.

ZORER

28th March 2007, 20:33

Will the gazelle already been injured and or will the Cheetah be with friends...so many factors you need to think about with a wild life simulator. Click here (http://dajmin.atspace.com/stfu/) to see what I mean.

no, and no. gazelle is not injured and cheetah won't be friends. In fact i'd expect more clever questions like,"-which track?" or " how many laps?" or "-what about pitstops?"...

neglouseight

30th March 2007, 00:52

I remember years ago on SpeedTV they had Semi-Truck races from Europe on a lot. It was kind of fun to watch them doing 160 mph in the rain. lol

Dalek0220

4th April 2007, 12:33

New types of races, that aren't lap based, but more like rally, where you do one very long track, that is broken in to sections.

That's what i think MUST be in LFS. It is the only thing that can be done,(reminds me of trackmania that i ditched ages ago) because it would behave like a race track, with a start and a finish line. Bwt, the sections bit is a ball of shit