Ghost car, duh.

[KurtG85]

I'll be absolutely amazed if this hasnt been mentioned 4,000 times before but the absence of a ghost car of your best lap is obvioiusly a huge pain in the butt. Anyone know of any mods that allow this?

[Rotary]

That's why someone invented the search button!! :p

There's a thread about this very recently, in which again it was told that the ghost car is patented which means it would cost a large sum of cash to use. Not aware of any mods for one, that was discussed to. Replay analyser is what most people use.

Welcome to the LFS forums!

[ButterTyres]

That's why someone invented the search button!! :p

There's a thread about this very recently, in which again it was told that the ghost car is patented which means it would cost a large sum of cash to use. Not aware of any mods for one, that was discussed to. Replay analyser is what most people use.

Welcome to the LFS forums!

Yep correct this has been mentioned many times, maybe there needs to be a STIKY on using the search function....

However I would say that the term "Ghost Car" has been patented by Atari.You can call it what you like, "Training Shadow" or whatever and it should be cool....

[tristancliffe]

Can't you just watch the replays and learn that way? Having a translucent car on track that you can drive through is soooooo unrealistic it's just silly (before someone tries to be clever and state that LFS isn't 100% realistic, I know, but there must be boundaries to the noob-aids). I would ONLY be SLIGHTLY interested in this if the car was solid (and hence you could follow it, but NOT set good times by being able to drive though it. Thus if you want to set artificially fast times using a ghost car you have to pass him, not drive though him...

[--==Gogo==--]

Well there is no "must" in using a ghost car. ;)

I'd really want this feature in the game. And there are a lot of racers out there thinking the same way than I do.

[Hankstar]

I've always found driving with a ghost car to be very distracting. Especially if you're on exactly the same line as the ghost, but then you move slightly and you get that awful double vision thing happening. Or you start watching the back of the ghost car and end up in the sand somewhere.
IMHO the best way to get fast is to drive a lot, concentrate on smoothness and keep half an eye on your split times so you know where you can improve. I'm still not all that fast, so back to my wheel I go ... :drive:

[tristancliffe]

I reckon if there was a ghost car, people would be quick behind it, but either slow or very accident prone as soon as the ghost car was removed.

It would only serve to make online racing LESS fun, and the hotlap charts artificially close.

[ColeusRattus]

I reckon if there was a ghost car, people would be quick behind it, but either slow or very accident prone as soon as the ghost car was removed.

It would only serve to make online racing LESS fun, and the hotlap charts artificially close.

I ahve split feelings about ghostcars. On one hand, they are utterly unrealistic and have quite a few disadvantages as already mentioned.

On the other hand, I love this feature in Gran Turismo when I chase the Gold award for a time trial. You can improve yourself more easily because you actually can see how different approaches to certain turns affect the laptime.
Also it gives you the little thrill of a pseudo-race, making time trials (or hunting pbs or even wrs) a little less dull.

So, summarizing I am happy with or without ghostcars :D

[OPK]

there must be boundaries to the noob-aids

Hehe, yeah :D
I don´t think a ghost car would be a good idea, I personally never liked them in other games...grml ^^

[ButterTyres]

I thought it was a decent idea that people would use.

But it does stink of "Arcade Game" right enough.... and we LFS hardnutts dont like that word.

[AndroidXP]

...^ What he said :thumbsup: ^

[ramtech]

well,
i'd still like to be able to use a ghost car in the game, it could be really handy..
for all u saying its "non-realistic" u can just turn that feature off!

[M.Mos]

for all u saying its "non-realistic" u can just turn that feature off! yepp they can , and will turn it of. But a noob might use it and improve his laptimes much faster and that is the problem for these kind of people.

I dont need a ghost car, but maybe would use it for driving different lines through corners to compare it, i can already do it with analyze for speed. But with a ghostcar it would speed up things, and since we don't have race engineers in LFS to help the Driver any help from LFS is appriciated.

[Resound]

I'd like a ghost car...it's a way of being able to watch a replay of your best lap while you drive that doesn't exist otherwise. A ghost car of somebodyelse's best lap would be dodgy though.

[speedfreak227]

i enjoy games with a ghost car of my best lap to race against. but when you get within one car length of the ghost it needs to disappear or become VERY translucent. there's nothing worse than trying to see through a solid copy of your car that's on a slightly different line than you.

speedfreak227

[the_angry_angel]

Please read the previous discussion as to why it probably wont be included (patent issue).

[Fonnybone]

I've always used ghost cars to improve my lap times in games. In fact, i don't
see a better way to see your errors than to actually follow yourself and
compare different techniques to find the fastest. I go karting regularly and
i use my friend as a 'ghost' (and vice-versa). By staying close together we
can try various techniques to see which is better/faster for which turn, a
simple laptime can't tell you that.

I thought the goal was about reaching faster laptimes, not keeping the n00bs
down until grampa learns to use a computer ?! Like all forms of racing,
there always seems to be 2 major attitudes, the 'technical', stoic and patient,
and the slower, but braver, 'intimidator'. A race is about seeing if the
real pilots can get passed the goons :p A bit like hockey i guess. Once in
a while, the 'technical' one will have a rage fit, but it's usually short
and often well placed, like a strategic hit to the side while entering a turn.
Great pilots are usually people who have a lot of both, like Shumacher. I
wonder if he's complaining about Villeneuve getting 'cheat' track time on
his simulator...

[speedfreak227]

Please read the previous discussion as to why it probably wont be included (patent issue).

ok, the name "ghost car" might be patented but i've played many different games with "an image of a car driving my best lap" that i can compete against.

rally trophy by bug bear has it.
hard drivin' in the arcade had it.

did they pay royalties to have a "best lap car"?

speedfreak227

[keiran]

I don't want a ghost car if it aint there in real life then it shouldn't be in a sim. Okay you can say turn it off but then all the WR times are going to be using the ghost car to make these times. It takes away the fun part of hotlapping which is to push the car to the maximum, if you have a ghost car to follow lap after lap then your using an aid to help you imrpove the time till you can't go any quicker. Without a ghost car you must decide where the braking and turn in points are for yourself lap after lap with only the track features to use. Thats my view on it and I really hope we don't see a ghost car as thats for arcade games.

Keiran

[M.Mos]

It takes away the fun part of hotlapping which is to push the car to the maximum, if you have a ghost car to follow lap after lap then your using an aid to help you imrpove the time till you can't go any quicker. Without a ghost car you must decide where the braking and turn in points are for yourself lap after lap with only the track features to use. Maybe it takes fun away from you if you use it. Others may have great fun , so hard to accept? And a slow driver will never be able to drive WR times just by driving behind a WR ghost. As i said before a ghost car isn't important for me , but i want as many competitive drivers as possible , and if a ghost will help them to go faster in shorter time, great.

[the_angry_angel]

ok, the name "ghost car" might be patentedNames arent patented. Ideas are. Which is bad, for software.

did they pay royalties to have a "best lap car"?I dont work for companies that have used patented "Ghost Car technology" in their software, so I really wouldnt know :p

Edit: Let me expand a bit on my first point.
Patents dont always include the implementation (although copyright does), but always include the idea. If we were to implement the ghost car its possible that atari would come down on the LFS devs like a tonne of bricks - result no LFS. Personally I prefer the safe option.

[speedfreak227]

Names arent patented. Ideas are. Which is bad, for software.

I dont work for companies that have used patented "Ghost Car technology" in their software, so I really wouldnt know :p

Edit: Let me expand a bit on my first point.
Patents dont always include the implementation (although copyright does), but always include the idea. If we were to implement the ghost car its possible that atari would come down on the LFS devs like a tonne of bricks - result no LFS. Personally I prefer the safe option.

that is totally fair! i can agree with that.

the time when i like a ghost car the most is when some non-racer buddy is playing and i like to see them improve. it's a nice way for them to get faster or at least see their mistakes.

speedfreak227

[KurtG85]

There have been so, so many games that have had the ghost car option in them. I find it strange that theres fear of legal action being taken for something used by so many much more mass market games. I dont think those game makers would have included it if it were risky to their profit.

LFS being a computer driven simulator, there are allready lots and lots of things you cant see in real life that you are able to in the game. The 'force' effects for instance. Its not like this would be breaking some perfect realism tradition. You can download peoples actual wr replays and watch them anyway, doesnt seem to me like such a huge change to just have your car on the screen at the same time. Its not like you put up a ghost and suddenly you know exactly how to keep a car on the edge of control. Even with a ghost car of someone elses super fast time, it takes tons and tons of training to be consistently super fast. A ghost just helps people see their mistakes sooner. Like someone else said, ghosts are especially good for beginners. I also agree that they add a ton of fun to time trialing against oneself like someone else mentioned.:)

[GeForz]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/kegetys/lfs/
Ghostcar v1.0 for S2

;)

[speedfreak227]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/kegetys/lfs/
Ghostcar v1.0 for S2

;)
that's cool. i'll give that a try tomorrow.

thanx,

speedfreak227

[inCogNito]

yes, that's really a great mod, although it caused a BSOD here the first time i tested it.

[anttt69]

:smileypul Personaly I think ghost car is a good idea.

Some say its unrealistic (tristian), but if it is only available in hotlapping mode it would help with learning the massive amount of car and track combos in S2.
Its not like we are going to end up with loads of transparent cars floating around whilst racing online is it?!

It has been used successfully in many racing games and ive always enjoyed the challenge of racing against/improving yourself. Many hours/days spent beating my PBs by chasing a ghost car around the track.

It makes time trial fun :thumb:

As for LFSW times being effected devs could it make so you cannot submit times done using ghost car as a driving aid. Also it shuld have an option to turn it on or off, so if you don't like it don't use it! simple.

There must be a way around the patent just ask Codemasters, they used it for loads of thier games.

The mod (above) looks interesting must try.

Whilst on the subject of improvements to S2 I have a few ideas:

Realistic weather effects would definately add a certain amount of realism. Imagine passing storms, dry lines appearing as track drys etc. maybe even dirt being brought on to track & leaves blowing off trees. oh yes....

More RallyX with cars similar to the classes raced in real rallyx (which I used to do, great fun :nod:) & based on the actual tracks used in the European & British Rallycross series. The great thing about it is that both LFS & RallyX have a huge european following.

What the hey Scawen & Victor could probably make a whole new game with licence and everything just based on the RallyX scene, think of the money :thumb:.

Tracks:

I would love to see Brands & Lydden in LFS. that would be cool.
also the awesome Nordshlife (excuse my spelling) is an absolute must, not everyone can afford to drive over there and have a blast. I am sure this would be a big hit.

How about a few Hillclimbs, a often overlooked decipline that is technicaly very challenging and skillfull just like LFS is supposed to be (plus I bet a few LFS drivers have done a bit of sprint/hillclimbing) imagine blasting up harewood in the FO8.....ummm a challenge I think!

Other Ideas:

Autotests in the car park?
Shattering glass included in the damage engine.
Bits droping off cars causing track debris.
Dirt ovals for banger racing.
Improved engine sounds using real engine samples.
Ice racing.... (with cars!)
3 monitor support, See :Looking_a More, increase the viewable area to 180deg....maybe just, maybe.

Summary:

I think with all the ideas that LFS racers suggest and discuss in detail Scawen and Victor could make three massive driving sims based on the S2 graphics/physics engine and still not include everything! Hire some more guys, get programming and make MILLIONS! yehaw
I will apply for position of Research & Marketing and when we are finished LFS will rule! (the world). :D

Keep up the good work.



I really should get more sleep.....zzzzz...zzzzzz....how the mind wonders.

[Iron_Maiden]

I was gona post the same thing...

I would like to have a ghost car....maybe you could download ghost replays of fast laps so you could learn by following the car...

It would help me a lot...

[WGooden]

This ghost car has never helped in racing games for me. When I have it on I'm trying to hard to catch it and end up not conentracting on hitting the lines perfectly or I try to outbrake it and end up goin off. I've always been able to run faster with it off, its best to use analyze for speed to see where you're losing time.

[avih]

yes, that's really a great mod, although it caused a BSOD here the first time i tested it.

Yup, I've had exactly same ecperience. Complete and immidiate reboot 1st time I've tried it, but your post convinced me to give it another go. And it works beautifully. Great mod indeed.

[inCogNito]

Yup, I've had exactly same ecperience. Complete and immidiate reboot 1st time I've tried it, but your post convinced me to give it another go. And it works beautifully. Great mod indeed.

yes, when i was over the line, 1sec later a very short blue screen and then an immidiate reboot.
I tried it again for a few laps and it worked fine.

[tristancliffe]

The trouble with ghost cars is that you can use them to drive a lap much faster than if you do not have a ghost car. So hotlaps will be artificially closer as people do laps they could not hope to do driving on their own. Which kind of defeats the point of hotlapping imo... One drivers versus the others in almost equal cars (i.e. setups).

[avih]

The trouble with ghost cars is that you can use them to drive a lap much faster than if you do not have a ghost car. So hotlaps will be artificially closer as people do laps they could not hope to do driving on their own. Which kind of defeats the point of hotlapping imo... One drivers versus the others in almost equal cars (i.e. setups).

nahh, not really. it does eventually come down to draving ability. ghost can only help you improve consistancy imho.

[inCogNito]

The trouble with ghost cars is that you can use them to drive a lap much faster than if you do not have a ghost car. So hotlaps will be artificially closer as people do laps they could not hope to do driving on their own. Which kind of defeats the point of hotlapping imo... One drivers versus the others in almost equal cars (i.e. setups).

:pillepall i highly doubt that...

[tristancliffe]

Well, you can see EXACTLY what line to take, and EXACTLY when to brake. All it can't help is getting on the power early.

I really do think that some people will be able to do lap times WITH a ghost car that they won't be able to do WITHOUT.

Plus, it's hardly realistic. If you want to compare yourself to the WR, use the telemetry and replay analysers (not 100% realistic itself, but at least you have to think and apply yourself to get faster).

[M.Mos]

Well, you can see EXACTLY what line to take, and EXACTLY when to brake. All it can't help is getting on the power early. You can see it , but you still need the skill to do it :)
I guess you didn't try out the Mod cos your talking WR all the time. You can not extract a ghostlap from any WR .spr file. You have to record your own ghost. Or if people upload ghostcars you can use them.

But what realy sucks about the mod is the fact that it can be used in multiplayerraces when you have admin access on the server your playing.

[Kegetys]

But what realy sucks about the mod is the fact that it can be used in multiplayerraces when you have admin access on the server your playing.

If that works then its a bug (Sounds pretty odd though) it should only activate when there is only one car on the track. If it does get active under some situation with more cars on the track then I would imagine things would get quite messed up as many parts of it rely on the assumption that there is only one car driving.

[M.Mos]

If that works then its a bug (Sounds pretty odd though) it should only activate when there is only one car on the track. I tested it with my dedicated server , and there was only one car on the track :) No Bug there , great work Kegetys :thumb:

[avih]

If that works then its a bug (Sounds pretty odd though) it should only activate when there is only one car on the track. If it does get active under some situation with more cars on the track then I would imagine things would get quite messed up as many parts of it rely on the assumption that there is only one car driving.

great mod :) thx.
would you be able to comment about the reboot/BSOD when running it for the 1st time on some systems?

[Kegetys]

would you be able to comment about the reboot/BSOD when running it for the 1st time on some systems?

Well, bluescreens can only happen when there is a hardware or driver fault (Unless you run a Win95 based OS :P) so it really cannot be caused by the ghostcar mod. Something it does might trigger a bug in the video card driver for example, but I cannot do anything about that.

[tailing]

I'm not really in favour of ghost cars I spose mainly because they've always bugged me in other games. Now that there's a mod though I think that's fair enough and there's no need to implement them in LFS officially.

[Honey]

Can't you just watch the replays and learn that way? Having a translucent car on track that you can drive through is soooooo unrealistic it's just silly (before someone tries to be clever and state that LFS isn't 100% realistic, I know, but there must be boundaries to the noob-aids). I would ONLY be SLIGHTLY interested in this if the car was solid (and hence you could follow it, but NOT set good times by being able to drive though it. Thus if you want to set artificially fast times using a ghost car you have to pass him, not drive though him...

it would be very interesting with solid car (me fighting with myself :) ), but there would be issues:
if you hit the ghost car, what should it do? should it be perfectly rigid and don't change speed/position OR should interact according to crash phisics? in the latter case, is it possible to implment a kind of AI to make it regain the line/speed of the ghost-lap (i think it would be not easy to implement)?

however i would like even the classic transparent ghost car, BUT disabling hotlap recording when in ghost car mode, so to avoid "cheating" with hotlaps. ;)

[inCogNito]

Well, bluescreens can only happen when there is a hardware or driver fault (Unless you run a Win95 based OS :P) so it really cannot be caused by the ghostcar mod. Something it does might trigger a bug in the video card driver for example, but I cannot do anything about that.

Well, if the same thing happens for 2 people trying the mod it has to be caused by it, even if it's not its fault.
But it think we can rule out hardware faults, because it's very unlikely that avih and i bought exactly the same faulty hardware ;)
So it has to be the driver if it's not the mod, i use FW 81.94 with a GF7800GT and the latest drivers for an nForce4 Ultra chipset.

Maybe you should "release" the tool in the addon section, so more people will see and try it, maybe we can find the reason for the blue screens.

But it still doesn't sound like a driver problem, if it just happens the first time you crossed the line tbh. And that was the first bluescreen since 2 years or so.

[avih]

I have XP-Pro SP1, AXP 2500+, ASUS A7N8X-X, FX5600 Ultra, quite recent video driver and not very recent nforce drivers.

The thing that's interesting though, is that it only happens 1st time of running. So maybe you could figure out what's difference between the 1st time and next times and just modify your initialization procedures a bit?

[Kegetys]

There's nothing different done the first time you run it, and without information from the driver's developer on where the error occurs there is really nothing I could even try to do about it. The best I could do is detect the faulty driver and refuse to run if it is in use.

What you should do is look at what driver caused the BSOD, and send the crash dump to the driver developer. Its their bug and they are the only ones who can fix it.

[Kegetys]

Out of interest: Would it be possible to start the ghost car early? So, say, you could set it to trigger <x> metres before you cross the finish line?

You can set it to drive ahead of you with the offset setting, ie. set it to 1000 and it will drive one second ahead of where it really drove.

[inCogNito]

how do you do a "crash dump"?

[theblackrabbi]

How do you get it to work? I have S2 licenced and it seems that the dll file you have to copy over makes the game not start. Any suggestions???