How about make some IGA in LFS

[scania]

and it can update by itself, just like RACE & Taiwan type of GTR2
it can let the maker of LFS make ,more money, than they can buy some real car & track for LFS & no need to make LFS more expensive:D

[wheel4hummer]

Immunoglobulin A? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IgA)

[Hankstar]

Apart from the fact that the developers seem to already have a business plan that works quite well - what the damn heck is IGA?

[Ian.H]

And that was the very reason I didn't even bother to try RACE.

As soon as something forces advertising on me, I'll drop it like a hot spud.. much the same as I always turn over to BBC1 regardless of what's on when ads come on on other channels.

Ever thought the reason there isn't many real cars / tracks in the game is that the Devs preferred to create their own content? After making a few tracks myself for rF and GTR2, creating fantasy ones ended up being a lot more appealing as I could use some initiative / imagination into what went into them rather than being another boring OTT-safety Tilke clone... no crappy race-ruining chicanes, corners where if it went wrong, it went wrong in a big way.

The day LFS gets in-game advertising is the day I personally never look at it or anything related to it again. I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one.



Regards,

Ian

[amp88]

The day LFS gets in-game advertising is the day I personally never look at it or anything related to it again. I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one.



Regards,

Ian

Keep your eyes off the various Michelin, Credit Suisse, BMW etc advertising boards then. I think it's realistic to have advertising boards around the tracks, most real world circuits do. I wouldn't, however, be happy if the advertising became any more invasive than that (appearing in in-game menus, setup screens etc).

[Ian.H]

Sorry, I obviously didn't clarify properly.

Logo boards with static ads are fine.. it creates the realism aspect of the environment. Same as skins.

Having areas of a track linked to a 3rd party ad server pushing ads about this that and the other, recording how long I've had a particular ad in my vision, from what angle I viewed it at etc etc etc will definitely keep me away. This is what I see as "IGA" rather than static textures although if you want to be "clever", they're both ads and in-game.

The part that really confuses me with this ad / spyware is that if people (accidentally) install some ad / spyware as an "IE helper" or some other form of ad / spyware, they go out of their way to get rid of it.. why do the same people accept it when it's embedded into a game? I _really_ don't understand this mentality.



Regards,

Ian

[Hankstar]

Oh, that IGA. Nuts to that! Thumbs down. As if we don't have enough goddam popups, rollovers and other assorted advertising bullshit assaulting us every time we go online! Keep it out of my games, thanks. Advertising may well be a fact of life but I choose, when I can, to avoid it. If it ends up in LFS I'll "change the channel" and play something else.

A texture on a trackside billboard or on a car is no problem with me - it's nearly always been a part of RL racing and adds a real racing atmosphere to games, even if the cars and tracks aren't based on reality.

Didn't know RACE had IGA - there's another reason for me to avoid it.

[mostflyskaterboy]

OHHHH! In game advertising = IGA

lol i gotcha

[wheel4hummer]

Normal bill-boards are fine and realistic. Popups are not. Perhaps sponsor decals inside of the GTRs would be nice, because they do it in real life to advertise to the cockpit cam.

[scoobyrbac]

what the damn heck is IGA?

Its a grocery store here in ohio lol

[Hankstar]

That was my first thought (second thought actually, right after "what is this guy on about?") - we've got IGA markets here too. Wonder if they're the same?

[mrodgers]

Its a grocery store here in ohio lol
LOL, I was going to quote him as well.

Western PA here. The only local grocery store I have. Everything else is at least 40 miles away (which would be the 5 Walmarts near me, each 40 miles away).

http://www.iga.com/

[mostflyskaterboy]

Lol I live right next to an IGA tooo lol

[MoonForce]

+1 from me, would flush more money to the devs (2nd isle in hawaii lol) and would be also more realistic, anyway no need for commercials of pl*yboy or victoria s*crets in a racing game lol :D

kids, its not meant here as a INGAME POP UP lol. man i am scared the future when we are old and u are ... just scared lol :D

[pasibrzuch]

I know two Iga's. Nice girls :)

[Vain]

I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be a good idea to put new logos on the ad-boards.
After all, that's what they are doing right now and what they are supposed to do. I don't mind wether it says Intel, BMW, or AMD, Chevrolet, or whatever.

Vain

[Ian.H]

I've got a couple of "nasty_spying_app.exe" files lying around that'll report back to me what you're currently viewing on your screen.. anyone want to run them?

Thought not.. but it's ok for some 3rd party ad / spyware company to retrieve this sort of data? I'm amazed!

Changing billboards with new .dds textures is _very_ different to having ads pumped at you from somewhere else in the world by someone who thinks they know what ads you'd prefer plastered all over said billboards than you do :really: :pillepall

Someone please explain to me why this is ok and why something like "im_spying_on_you.dll" would result in an uproar if I embedded something like that into a tool I released for public use... I'm dying to hear your reasons excuses :nod:

Thankfully I don't think the LFS devs are greedy or stupid enough to add something like this to the game.. so it's really a moot discussion but am very interested to hear why it's ok to add this crap into games :)



Regards,

Ian

[Dajmin]

I'm with Ian on this one.

I have absolutely no problem with LFS updating the billboards with new sponsors or whatever, but the second a game starts logging what I'm doing with my own computer is the second I uninstall it. Bollocks to that.

I think developers have missed the middle ground as far as in game adverts go, which is quite sad. It could've been a good way to recover some bandwidth costs, but not at the expense of becoming adware.

[Vain]

No one says that updating dds-files means espionage on what I'm doing. When I log on to the LFS master server it tells me there's a small update ready and wether I want to download it in windowed mode, and one click later the billboard says "AMD ownz Intel" instead of "Intel pwnz AMD". Not a big deal.
I just see no relation to spyware.

Vain

[Dajmin]

@Vain
What software companies are doing isn't just adding new adverts to games, they're scanning your system for what you have installed and what you look at online so they can target specific advertising at you.
I can't speak for any sims, but I know that Battlefield 2142 has this kind of system and I don't agree with it at all.

Now if it was like you said - connect to a server, get new ads - that wouldn't be a problem at all. That's the middle ground that the developers seem to have missed.

Even Steam (I know a lot of people hate it, but I've never had a problem with it) has surveys you can fill in which helps target advertising without compromising your personal data. But you don't have to. And that's the point - everything should be optional.

[Ian.H]

Please read my post(s) again then Vain, you're obviously missing the point.

Throwing ads at you is pointless for an ad / spyware company without any statistics. That just becomes common spamming where spammers don't care if their crap actually gets through or not, they get paid per "campaign" based on number of mails _sent_, not received.

For this to be lucrative for these scumballs, they need to make sure that you are infact seeing the ads, so they record how long a particular ad has been in your vision and the likes of from what angle you viewed it from and they record this. Exactly how they use that data I don't know (other than making more money) as I only work my nuts off to filter out this kind of crap rather than implement it, but it results in nothing more than common ad / spyware.

Vain, would you install an "IE toolbar" that reported back to some company about what sites you viewed and for how long you had viewed them for? My guess would be no.. and if you answer is no, why not? You clearly wouldn't mind this if it was embedded into a game. It's absolutely no different whatsoever except you get "conned" with IGA as you're led to believe you're getting something out of it (ie: game content) but the end of the day, you're just lining some slimeball's pocket with yet more dirty cash.

I spend at least 2-3 hours a day making sure I and my customers don't receive unwanted ads.. I damn well don't want to finish my day's work and see the same shit in something I'm doing to try and wind down that should be nothing but a fun experience. I've paid my dues to LFS.. it was a one time payment, not an investment of which I'd yield absolutely no return.

The worst part is the people that accept it. If people didn't accept it, it'd go away as it's no longer a lucrative business plan.. but alas, people just want, without thinking.


[EDIT]
Found this on a site as a quote from EA regarding a battlefield game:

BF 2142 delivers ads by region. The advertising system uses a player's IP address to determine the region of the player, assisting to serve the appropriate ads by region and language. For instance, a player in Paris might be presented with ads in French. The information collected will not be repurposed for other uses.

Battlefield 2142 also tracks "impression data" related to in-game advertisements: location of a billboard in the game, brand advertised, duration of advertisement impression, etc. This information is used to help advertisers qualify the reach of a given advertisement.

Now tell me that isn't spyware :really:



Regards,

Ian

[Vain]

I'm not sure on the statement you are trying to make now.
We both agree that we don't want spyware. Checked.
Beyond that you seem to want to say that advertisments are identical to spyware. You seem to be implying that it is impossible to have advertisment of any sort in the game without spyware, because the companies wouldn't do it if they didnt have the marketing data.
Is that correct?

If so, I disagree. The current billboards don't use spyware but are still a form of advertisment. I'm speaking about that. And I'm saying that I'm willing to accept changing billboards once in a while. So the whole deal is that I have to spend a few seconds downloading new billboards and that's the end of data exchange. Just like I did when I downloaded patch T, with the BMW and Intel ads. I already did that and I didn't mind it and I wouldn't mind doing that again.
That's the advertisment I'm speaking about.

Vain

[Ian.H]

I think you're deliberately missing the point... this has sweet FA to do with static textures with intel, michelin, BMW or whatever on them.. this is all about being hooked up dynamically to a 3rd party (not related to LFS in the slightest) ad server that changes the ads as and when they see fit _and_ record certain information about your interaction with those ads.

Having the current ads that are in LFS as .dds textures etc don't bother me in the slightest.. I doubt anyone has a problem with those.. I could change them all to nekkid women if I wanted. The important part is that they don't record how I see the ads, they don't change every time I start the game to something some little bod in Asia thought I'd want to see.. they don't dynamically earn some scumball extra cash every time I happen to pass a particular billboard.

Please see the edit above and quote from EA about how it works and then tell me you're still in agreement with that sort of advertising because that's what this thread is referring to, not some picture of a BMW logo someone painted 6 months ago and packed up with the download.


[EDIT]More info:

The Software may incorporate technology developed by IGA Worldwide Inc. ("IGA") (the "Advertising Technology"). The purpose of the Advertising Technology is to deliver in-game advertisements to you when you use the Software while connected to the Internet. When you use the Software while connected to the Internet, the Advertising Technology may record your Internet Protocol address and other anonymous information ("Advertising Data"). The Advertising Data is temporarily used by IGA to enable the presentation and measurement of in-game advertisements and other in-game objects which are uploaded temporarily to your personal computer or game console and charged during online game play. The Advertising Technology does not collect any personally identifiable information about you, and EA will not provide IGA with any of your personally identifiable information. The servers used by the Advertising Technology may, from time to time, be located outside your country of residence. If you are located within the European Union, the servers may be located outside the European Union.

By installing and using the Software, you agree to: (i) the transfer of the Advertising Data to servers located outside your country of residence and, if applicable, outside the European Union; (ii) the collection and use of the Advertising Data as described in this Section; and (iii) the delivery of advertising and marketing content of the Advertising Technology. IF YOU DO NOT WANT IGA TO COLLECT, USE, STORE OR TRANSMIT THE DATA DESCRIBED IN THIS SECTION, DO NOT INSTALL OR PLAY THE SOFTWARE ON ANY PLATFORM THAT IS USED TO CONNECT TO THE INTERNET.


[EDIT2]From the IGA horses mouth:

The only “computing habits” it records are:
“The time that each ad impression takes place is also recorded by IGA, alongside what type of ad content it was (billboard, megaboard, or video stream), the duration (how long was the ad seen for), the size of the ad relative to the player, and the angle of deflection (what angle the ad is viewed at).”
Source: Justin Townsend (IGA Worldwide CEO) on Gamasutra



Regards,

Ian

[Dajmin]

I think the problem there is that the company placing the ads wants to make sure that the people seeing them fit into their target market. Extreme example: there's no point advertising a BMW to a game full of children under 5 :)

But what's wrong with actual communication between companies? I'm sure this must have existed before the internet was such a common thing. Allow me to demonstrate (for the sake of any potential spyware game developers who might be reading).
___________________________________________
Potential Sponsors: We're looking for a suitable market to advertise our product.

Live For Speed: Well look at our consumer base. We have age/gender/location information which was provided voluntarily on account creation. No spyware needed here, noobs.

Potential Sponsor #1: That's exactly our target audience. Please, take some logos and a sack of cash.

Live For Speed: Why thank you. Witness your logos displayed all around the tracks where everyone can see. Aren't they pretty?

Potential Sponsor #2: That market is no use to us. No cash 4 u!

Live For Speed: Too bad. Call us if you change your mind.
___________________________________________

See how easy it is? Bah, flogging a dead horse here.

[KeiichiRX7]

changing billboards, fine with me, we do this on our own occasionalyl for specific events and the like.

dynamicly updated? well, ONLY with no invasive software.

Speaking of updates... Anyone care to help with doing a texture pack of aston, for a "festival of speed" a few friends and i are going to try to run

[Gunn]

All unsolicited advertising should be made illegal.

[Linsen]

Potential Sponsor #1: That's exactly our target audience. Please, take some logos and a sack of cash.
Problem is, this is not gonna happen (yet), I'm afraid, because it's not worth the effort for the potential sponsor (see Ian's posts for further explanation).

[jamvib]

I'm with you Gunn!
For example a thing I find quite annoying is going to the cinema on time and then waste those 15 minutes or so watching stupid adds about pointless things (the trailers are ok though)...

So The Ads around a circuit or around a football pitch or basketball court, or whatever it is, are something to give realism to the simulation enviroment, but, for example if you are using Flightgear you woulndt expect seeing a dirigible or Zeppelin saying Nivea for Men: Don't Forget to Shave! Pilots never have a Beard! (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2061552,00.asp), would you? Well, at least I wouldnt!

[Dajmin]

Well they might not think it's worth the effort, but with a little bit of calculation it's not hard to work out the same figures. For instance:

Ad#1 is put on in place of the current Intel ads. For arguments sake let's say there's 25 of those round Blackwood GP. That means that in the XFG (I'm guessing here, work with me) each advert is on your screen for around 5-7 seconds on a mid-pace section of track. Some of them are combined so we can assume a total of maybe 10 seperate adverts. 10 ads @ 5 secs each = 50 seconds of advertising per lap. Average a 5 lap race = 250 screen seconds of advertising per race.

For a company looking to advertise, that's 2 minutes work to watch a single lap and time it themselves. Costs could be worked out accordingly. Much better than forcing the users to run what could be considered spyware.

[duke_toaster]

Perhaps sponsor decals inside of the GTRs would be nice, because they do it in real life to advertise to the cockpit cam.

Banned in the BTCC AFAIK.

And +1 for banning in game IGA's and popups. But IMO TV companies should be allowed to use product placement. When watching American stuff (or Anglo-american stuff, if it's shot in the US it's under their law) I always play "spot-the-product-placement". In The State Within, all mobiles were Motorola Razrs.

The day LFS gets IGA would be the day I go back to GR even though no-one else is there.

[bbman]

Normal bill-boards are fine and realistic. Popups are not. Perhaps sponsor decals inside of the GTRs would be nice, because they do it in real life to advertise to the cockpit cam.

No way I'm allowing ads in MY PERSONAL cockpit where I have to stare at it all the time... If anything, it should be part of the skin, but not generated by someone else than me...

[Woz]

For me its a simple

NO!

People that serve up IGA want to know what adverts to push to you so they want to give you spyware. BF2142 anyone? That FORCES spyware on you by only allowing you online when you use the spuware!

Just.... NO

[wheel4hummer]

No way I'm allowing ads in MY PERSONAL cockpit where I have to stare at it all the time... If anything, it should be part of the skin, but not generated by someone else than me...

Well, i just meant decals in the .dds file, not in-game advertising.

[Hyperactive]

Only if I can turn it off. Imho, changing track side billboards adds nothing to the LFS experience. All I can see is bad things. For the same reason I don't listen to radio. Commercials.

---
Well, i just meant decals in the .dds file, not in-game advertising.
It is in-game advertising when you have ads nsiide the game/sim.

[al heeley]

I like swapping my billboards around every now and then. It gives the tracks a fresh look. I'm always putting together assortments of new boards with Advan, Pirelli, Castrol, certain tasteful pics involving the fairer sex, that sort of thing. Doesn't make me want to rush out and buy the product...

[neglouseight]

I'm a Mac guy, only way I play LFS is to restart my MacPro in WinXP. So IGA hasn't really hit Mac games yet.

I play BF2142 also, now they started using IGA and it has really taken away from the game a lot. Since before you would see billboards of propoganda for what ever side you were playing "Join the cause fight!" kind of thing.

Now when you play every flat billboard is filled with Intel Core Duo 2
adds. Which really takes away from a feature conflict game when you look at it, thinking "Wow 135 years from now Intel is still pushing Core Duo, or are even around in a post apoctolypic world!?"

For LFS if it is done right, where track billboards have stuff. Not in our cockpits. Or if you had a designer tool for your decals for companies you want on your car. So lets we open up the 3D car viewer app, in it we have the company logos to choose from on one side. We can drag the logo the logo on to the spot of the car we awant it on, the it automatically sticks to the car and we adjust the scale. These logs could automatically update if the company changes there look.

The down side is you would have to connect online to get the info. One major draw back in BF2142 is even the offline game you have to connect online. I've had my high speed internet go out a few times and couldn't even start the game because it checks online first, no other option around it. They did make a slight fix, that if it doesn't find anything it will go to offline mode. But any unlocks you have are unusable.

I'm not for in-game adds. But if they have to happen they should ONLY be for related products to that game. Ads that would actually be there. Not racing around a track with "Play super ultra FPS shooter now!" or ever billboard is some game websites logo and URL.

[ShannonN]

I like swapping my billboards around every now and then. It gives the tracks a fresh look. I'm always putting together assortments of new boards with Advan, Pirelli, Castrol, certain tasteful pics involving the fairer sex, that sort of thing. Doesn't make me want to rush out and buy the product...


I too would like to do this its gets a bit same old same old with the current billboards, have you by chance released these changes as a pack or would consider doing so Al?
Shannon