Cam timing adjustment

[wheel4hummer]

That would be awesome. Then we could fine-tune the timing to our needs. The only problem is that if backfiring is ever implemented, ricers might advance the intake timing, just to make the car backfire.

[XCNuse]

that kind of leads to advantage of people knowing what they are doing

cause.. even i have no idea what exactly cam timing does lol
that just gets everything to complicated and cars faster than others

i say no

[shoman24v]

Just add VTEC and were good!

[XCNuse]

copyright.. lol

no.. no type of modding will ever take place in LFS (i hope)
(and for you that like to get me at everything... i mean modding as in anything BESIDES changing textures and suspension work, gears, etc.)

[ayrton senna 87]

even tho i hate this idea, LFS is a racing sim and cam timing is a part of racing...

im not sure i enjoy the dirt on the tyres on every server, but i am playing a sim...

[snewham]

copyright.. lol

no.. no type of modding will ever take place in LFS (i hope)
(and for you that like to get me at everything... i mean modding as in anything BESIDES changing textures and suspension work, gears, etc.)


Why are you talking about modding?? No-one has even mentioned anything to do with modding in this thread.

I think cam-timing would not be essential and wil probably never be added but it all depends on how real we want the sim to be. If we want it to be life like then there will be thousands of things to change in our setups and I don't think that will ever happen.

I am not too sure what cam-timing does and if it has a big effect on a car's peformance but lag and fps are a big issue with what you can add to the game. We need to concentrate on the essentials first and then look at what else we can add.

[XCNuse]

..because cam timing has to do with the timing in the engine..
that is too modding

and modding leads to unfairness
and unfairness leads to tyrannistic games
and .. well.. then you land up with NFSU online lol

[snewham]

that is not modding that is just adjeusting the way that the engine works.

Modding would mean adding a HKS turbo or induction kit to the car and you aren't doing anything of the sort here. It would be included in the setup and it would not be unfair.

So you're saying that adding cam timing adjustment would make the sim ino nfsu ??

please think about your replies before you post them. Stop flaming in peoples threads and stop having a go at drifters and people who want to put big wheels on their cars.

[XCNuse]

how is that a flame? im saying that for people that have no idea how to do it/what on earth that even means.. that gives the people that do know what they are doing a serious advantage..
when i mean mod.. i dont mean like body kits and whatnot, i mean anything having to do with the engine and modding anything in it that would give people advanteges over other people

btw.. i do drift sometimes.. and my sisters car has big wheels.. what are you trying to prove in my personal life?

[shoman24v]

I think the performance for adjusting a cams timing would be negligible. More then likely you won't even notice a difference racing. Now having an assortment of different cams to use for each engine is a different story.

[snewham]

it wouldn't give people anymore advantage than they have now as it would be included within setups. Hardly anyone makes their own setups especially noobs.

[Bob Smith]

While I would enjoy tinkering, there is at least some benefit to knowing the straight line performance of all the cars is always identical. This isn't an engineering sim after all.

[skiingman]

While I would enjoy tinkering, there is at least some benefit to knowing the straight line performance of all the cars is always identical. This isn't an engineering sim after all.

That logic baffles me.

It seems to suggest that allowing for any setup changes is a disadvantage. Allowing the user to select from an INFINITE set of gear ratios, for instance, is very much engineering simulation...not race car at the track simulation.

If I can vary the anti-roll at both ends from zero to "solid axle conversion kit" while driving, why is it ridiculous to be able to tweak realistically adjustable parameters like cam timing in the pits?

Not that I particularly care if engines ever become adjustable...I just think your logic is a bit off.

The people complaining about "having a disadvantage for not being in the know" similarly baffle me. Putting together a driveable and optimal setup for a given track/car is no easy task, and requires a plethora of knowledge and careful testing.

If X user doesn't know what tradeoff he could make by adjusting cam timing for KY Oval vs. SO sprint, X user probably doesn't put together his own setups anyways.

[danowat]

Surely cam tuning is in the same ballpark as ignition tuning?, that being there is one sweet spot for a given engine that gives the best performance?.

If a race engine is setup to race, which I assume the LFS engines are, adding any form of engine tuning is pointless, as the engine should already be tuned to produce the best output.

Dan.

[tristancliffe]

Surely cam tuning is in the same ballpark as ignition tuning?, that being there is one sweet spot for a given engine that gives the best performance?.

If a race engine is setup to race, which I assume the LFS engines are, adding any form of engine tuning is pointless, as the engine should already be tuned to produce the best output.

Dan.

Well, thats not quite right.

With CAM timing you have a window of values (generally stated as the Maximum Opening Point, MOP) at which the cams are designed for. The engine builder/tuner will choose the cams for the timing required, and fine tune them to give more low down torque, or more top end power. But only very small changes can be safely made with the cams really (+- 4 degrees). Of course, pinking, detonation, misfiring, knocking etc etc are all influenced by this.

To make noticable changes you would choose different lobe profiles, possibly but not always for inlet and exhaust (often the same profile for both).

Ignition timing works slightly differently. To all intents are purposes, combustion takes a fined (and not really varying) time. The ignition timing is adjusted so that the combustion (fixed speed) occurs at the right time relative to engine revs (varying speed). Hence at idle you have about 8 degrees BTDC firing, but at 4000rpm it can go quite a lot more advanced, say to 35 degrees (these figures depend on the engine/characteristics required, so don't reset all your engines ;)).

So yes, iginition timing (at idle, and varying speeds above idle), and cam timing are set at 'optimum' values before the engine is run on track (unless the engine builder was an idiot (most of them) in which case you see people fiddling in the paddock).

The only worthwhile change to adjust performance would be to change the cam profiles, but thats a big change, and tends to require a bit of an engine strip down.

Either way, I think LFS would benefit by NOT having adjustable cams or ignition timing.

[ayrton senna 87]

cam tuning changes the power band of the engine slightly, meaning u could adjust it to have good bottom end power for tracks like AS Cadet or good top end for tracks like FE Black.

[tristancliffe]

But it's so slight that it wouldn't have much effect on lap times or speeds.

[danowat]

So regardless of me being right or wrong, normally I am wrong so thats not anything new ;), the idea of any form cam tuning or ignition tuning would be negligable as the engine would/should already be tuned for best performance anyway?.

I think the way LFS is now, is best, it pretty much gives everyone a level playing field....

Dan.

[ayrton senna 87]

engines dont naturally match ALL tracks, for example most top TOP kart racers have about 10 motors minimum, each one has the characteristics for each circuit (bottom, middle and top end power differences)

[danowat]

Surely karts are a whole different kettle of fish to the cars in LFS?.

Dan.

[ayrton senna 87]

yes and no, it just shows that you cant have 1 engine for all tracks, even tho the cars have gears, u still need the powerband in different places

[shoman24v]

engines dont naturally match ALL tracks, for example most top TOP kart racers have about 10 motors minimum, each one has the characteristics for each circuit (bottom, middle and top end power differences)
Yeah but those engines have many different types of powerbands, not something like a 3 degrees of timing.

[ayrton senna 87]

?

[snewham]

lol that was what I was thinking :)

[ayrton senna 87]

those engines have many different types of powerbands? an engine can only have 1 powerband unless the exaust legth is changed, the carb is changed, or many other factors which im sure no one cares about.

i dont have a clue what u meant lol

[Fonnybone]

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=1720

This thread mentions the exact same 'problem'. LFS has been out for a few
years and some of us have seen things come and go, and come again, and
then repeat itself once more.

LFS emerged from the thoughts of SEV with plenty of settings right from the
beginning. I'm sure many of you where attracted by this. Time has shown
that most racers do NOT want to go throught any of this and most will settle
on a setup and just live with it (adjusting it over time) while some will simply
use setups from racers who are known to be 'fast'. Most performance
affecting options take that route wether you like it or not. If there's a
performance penalty/advantage, people will look for the exploit, and NOT
the realistic setting. In that regard, adding a cam timing value is pointless as
i'm sure we'll eventually find one optimum setting and most will use only that.
No thoughts on the physics of things, the only reason would be to not be the
slowest. That defeits the purpose imo.

I've experienced this myself with the F08 in S2, took me a month to learn the
exploit in the aerodynamics and why people all got to 300kmh+ while i was
topping at 270kmh. It was a conbination of aerodynamics and tire pressure
actually. The point is i didn'T LEARN the physics to understand what i may
have setup wrong, i learned on LFS forums that x setup was slower and y
setup was faster. That's not what i call a sim, sorry. Like i said in that other
thread, once everyone uses the 'same' settings, it will only be a penalty to
n00bs. There would have to be many choices each offering
advantages/disadvantages to actually make it worth while choosing one
over the other. Else it's just a 1337 switch.

Just my 2cents.

[skiingman]

and cam timing are set at 'optimum' values before the engine is run on track (unless the engine builder was an idiot (most of them) in which case you see people fiddling in the paddock).

Untrue. Changing cam timing without changing cam profile will effect the character of the engine, and may be a way to gain an advantage at X track if the same cam profile is mandated for the entire season. At some tracks, area under the torque curve will be more important than peak numbers, and vice versa.

The only worthwhile change to adjust performance would be to change the cam profiles, but thats a big change, and tends to require a bit of an engine strip down.

I guess it depends on your idea of worthwhile. I've seen parameters as seemingly "not worthwhile" as valve lash adjusted to take maximum advantage of X rule mandated valvetrain. Tradeoff component life for a wee bit of extra torque at a certain critical point.

Either way, I think LFS would benefit by NOT having adjustable cams or ignition timing.

And I think LFS would benefit by having realistic setup values. i.e., you can't miraculously remove the sway bar in the cockpit and subsequently add it again with near infinite stiffness.

I think the gear ratios chosen ought to approximate the available ratios for real world gearboxes...or at least not be infinite. If you put a 1.6:1 final drive in the puppy, you should be prepared to have a lower MTBF than the guy with the 2.77.

I find it bizarre that people enjoy and want the ability to screw around with every aspect of the car in a decidedly non-realistic fashion EXCEPT for the engine.

It might make things interesting if the XF had to decide if the race at WE Int'l was worth throwing that peaky 292 cam in that they wouldn't want to bog out of T1 at BLGP with.

Right now we're given a car, and an almost infinite selection of suspension components to play around with and adjust to be optimal at a given track. While an optimal BLGP setup for an XF will be fast anywhere, it won't be as fast at FE Club as a setup optimized for FE Club.

Whats wrong with allowing the same infinite number of choices for tuning the engine? Like suspension components, everything is a tradeoff. A 1.6 liter DOHC four banger isn't going to magically make mucho power if I can suddenly adjust silly little things like cam timing and fuel mapping. Just think....I could have an endurance map and a sprint map.

If some person doesn't want to have to adjust those things, they can just use the known good default setup, or cherrypick a setup off of someone who put the work in...just like they do now.

[Rotary]

I'm convinced skiingman :)

Off-topic: What I think LFS needs is the option to limit car setups settings to finite values. Take the Aussie V8 supercars and their diffs as one small example. They have a limit of three diffs to choose from which I think are 3.7:1, 3.5:1 & 3.25:1. It would be good to run a comp in LFS that allowed setups to be controlled without the option of near infinite settings. :)

Server side optional of course. ;)

On-topic: I've been wanting to tweak engine mapping in LFS for ages... I know bugger all about it, but would learn if LFS allowed it :)

[Impreza WRX]

Same here. On some cars, I have been wishing for more low end torque, even if it means losing a quarter of the peak horsepower!

[Bob Smith]

I'm not sure if LFS simulates an engine in enough detail to do this properly anyway.

What's this talk of reducing gearing options? Don't give them ideas! :p

[nikimere]

Off-topic: What I think LFS needs is the option to limit car setups settings to finite values.

great idea. smaller value ranges would be better i think

[wheel4hummer]

well, if you adjust the cam more than a certain amount, it would be just the same as it was before lol. And, with the cam timing, some people would have low-end torque, and others would have more high-end. On oval racing, you would use high-RPM type cams, and on a dragstrip perhaps, you would use mid-RPM cams.

[Kramer]

Untrue. Changing cam timing without changing cam profile will effect the character of the engine, and may be a way to gain an advantage at X track if the same cam profile is mandated for the entire season. At some tracks, area under the torque curve will be more important than peak numbers, and vice versa.

I guess it depends on your idea of worthwhile. I've seen parameters as seemingly "not worthwhile" as valve lash adjusted to take maximum advantage of X rule mandated valvetrain. Tradeoff component life for a wee bit of extra torque at a certain critical point.


And I think LFS would benefit by having realistic setup values. i.e., you can't miraculously remove the sway bar in the cockpit and subsequently add it again with near infinite stiffness.

I think the gear ratios chosen ought to approximate the available ratios for real world gearboxes...or at least not be infinite. If you put a 1.6:1 final drive in the puppy, you should be prepared to have a lower MTBF than the guy with the 2.77.

I find it bizarre that people enjoy and want the ability to screw around with every aspect of the car in a decidedly non-realistic fashion EXCEPT for the engine.

It might make things interesting if the XF had to decide if the race at WE Int'l was worth throwing that peaky 292 cam in that they wouldn't want to bog out of T1 at BLGP with.

Right now we're given a car, and an almost infinite selection of suspension components to play around with and adjust to be optimal at a given track. While an optimal BLGP setup for an XF will be fast anywhere, it won't be as fast at FE Club as a setup optimized for FE Club.

Whats wrong with allowing the same infinite number of choices for tuning the engine? Like suspension components, everything is a tradeoff. A 1.6 liter DOHC four banger isn't going to magically make mucho power if I can suddenly adjust silly little things like cam timing and fuel mapping. Just think....I could have an endurance map and a sprint map.

If some person doesn't want to have to adjust those things, they can just use the known good default setup, or cherrypick a setup off of someone who put the work in...just like they do now.

I agree 100%

:thumb:

Saludos