"Push to pass"

[XCNuse]

okay.. well if you dont know what this is, its in the champ car racing series here in the US.

anyways, what its used for, is on the smaller/tighter tracks (imagine.. south city).. there's a ton of short straits and many many turns; its used (majorly) in tracks like such, where there are few chances to be able to pass; basically you land up in the same position you started, except for a few people that dropped off because of crashing/mechanical problems.

basically, the champ cars are limited to the amount of horsepower, and when they push down on the push to pass button, they are given a few extra RPMS and gain about 50 horsepower for up to 60 seconds.

as its said, you can either hord them up for the last few seconds to get a close finish, or you can use it to pass when the chance comes.

basically, the times when its used to be horded up, would be on longer and wider tracks, where passing is easily done without problems; vs used to pass on short town tracks when passing is impossible otherwise.


Although i know you guys dont want nitrous; thats NOT what this is!, its just releasing the limiter on these cars to gain some horsepower... its a tactic to cease the position in front of you.

last words; the one thing i dont think we would need is the full 60 seconds; since the races in LFS are usually only a few laps long; maybe 30 seconds would be more reasonable (however im not sure, this would have to be tested)

[L(Oo)ney]

Sounds very much like a "NOS button" to me. :P

[ORION]

I dont need that to pass someone, and additionally more hp doesnt mean that you pass me ;)

[Krane]

Although i know you guys dont want nitrous; thats NOT what this is!, its just releasing the limiter on these cars to gain some horsepower... its a tactic to cease the position in front of you.There's not even 1 car that would benefit from such button. Every car in LFS has their powerband and peak power waayy before redline - well the LXs's/LXes's/LXses/LX'es/LXs'e'es'e''s'e'/WTF SP? shiftpoint are pretty near the redline.

[XCNuse]

....... like i said; the formula champ cars are limited...

..looney.. go search google you fool, i just said its not nitrous, and it has nothing to do with injecting anything or anything at all.. its a mechanism.. and nothing more


and krane.. you lost me there.. im not talking about the LX.. im talking about the FOX

[-wes-]

hmmm maybe, it all depends on how the aredynamics are altered in the next patch.

You only need a system like this if overtaking is next to impossible, it's both car and track dependant so yeah maybe..

[Krane]

and krane.. you lost me there.. im not talking about the LX.. im talking about the FOXWhere? Only car you mention in the post is champ car, last time I checked, we don't have any champ cars.

[L(Oo)ney]

looney.. go search google you fool, i just said its not nitrous, and it has nothing to do with injecting anything or anything at all.. its a mechanism.. and nothing more

XCNuse, you fool, it give's you more power at the touch of a button, just like nitrous oxide does, only it does it in a different way.

Why is it any better then a nos button, the end effect is still the same. :rolleyes:

[XCNuse]

@krane; sorry, i must have cut it out on accident or something, sorry for the confusion!

@looney..... because its not the same.

and thats not what it does either; its not even close to nitrous. go read about it.

also.. imo looney your taking this the wrong way like its just another way to "cheat" and get ahead.. while its not.. maybe for the noobs that will go around and use it instantly, only to find out that they are slower, and infact will lose the race because they used up all of their time on the button

now go read about it before you comment anymore

[L(Oo)ney]

now go read about it before you comment anymore


But push the “boost button” and the driver gets a boost in performance of 50 to 70 horsepower instantly, increasing his speed by at least 5%. For you gear heads, Champ Cars operate at 41.5 inches of mercury (how boost is measured), which is controlled by engine sensors. Push the boost button and you get 44 inches of mercury, meaning an increase in the amount of fuel and air that gets packed into the cylinders, providing more power.

This Question of the Day talks about how sodium chlorate acts as a way to store oxygen. You release the oxygen in sodium chlorate by heating it. It turns out that nitrous oxide (N20) works exactly the same way. When you heat nitrous oxide to about 570 degrees F (~300 C), it splits into oxygen and nitrogen. So the injection of nitrous oxide into an engine means that more oxygen is available during combustion. Because you have more oxygen, you can also inject more fuel, allowing the same engine to produce more power. Nitrous oxide is one of the simplest ways to provide a significant horsepower boost to any gasoline engine.

Nitrous oxide has another effect that improves performance even more. When it vaporizes, nitrous oxide provides a significant cooling effect on the intake air. When you reduce the intake air temperature, you increase the air's density, and this provides even more oxygen inside the cylinder.

Ok, i read.

[Gunn]

Push To Pass is a silly in real life (remember you aren't allowed to block anymore in that race series which would be impossible to emulate in LFS) turning a real race into a virtual arcade game.

2c

[Shotglass]

i dont like the idea ... it really is a lot like a nos button plus i dont like the idea of restricting enginepower by such means ...

if anything id like to see a fuel limit and give drivers the ability to change a few turbo settings while driving (much like the way it was done in group c)

[tristancliffe]

Right - time to settle it.

This does exist in real life. The systems used are all slightly different. Some just allow higher revs, others change the fuel mapping and ignition timing etc, whilst a few increase the boost momentarily. I think the turbo boost option was actually initiated by the people that run the sport.

However, I don't think we need it in LFS. The only reason they did it in real life is to artificially increase overtaking to improve audiences. In live for speed it should be about the purest racing possible, without such aids to assist. And besides, does anyone think the racing would benefit if the FOX or FO8 had such a button? The last thing we need is more power in the FO8 at the moment.

So, whilst XCN is right about it being a real life thing, I have to disagree (sorry XCN) on it's use in LFS. I am a purist (see my sig), and therefore I cannot condone any forms of driver aids (which this is - a passing aid).

[XCNuse]

..and im fine with that.. atleast you explain WHY.. instead of just saying no..

@thisnameismistaken; .. the main time push to pass is used (like i said) is on short tracks where its nearly impossible to pass; such as south city (in some places.. we actually dont have a small tight course); HOWEVER.. when S2 full is out.. you will see that you wont be able to draft very long or else you will fry your engine (hence the "temp" gauge in all the cars)

[Tweaker]

It's "Power to Pass"

And the Champ Cars use it, but I don't know how long they are allowed to use it for a race? Like 40 secs max or something? I forget. I was at the San Jose GP 2 weeks ago... man they hardly used it cuz that track had no room to pass :( :doh:

[TagForce]

It's 60 seconds, and the newly formed A1GP series also has that button... There it is actually called push-to-pass or PowerBoost.

[Rotary]

KITT had something similar as well, although it was called Turbo Boost. Turbo Boost is so much better than "Push-to-pass" or "PowerBoost" or "Power to Pass" as it allows your car to launch over and in front of your opponents! You could pass almost anywhere with ease!! (I would advise using it mostly on straights though!)

Oh, it has to be real as it was on TV and KITT rules... why would KITT lie to us?? :p

[Tweaker]

Why dont we just have rocket boosters, grappling hooks and lazer beams ---- Dr. Evil stylez?

j/k

[tailing]

Maybe if we had a turbo forumula car but to be honest I don't think it's necessary. It isn't really that hard to pass on south city especially if your running longish races.

[Fetzo]

i am ok with turbo boost, but i don't like the push to pass button. is it ok if overtaking with a f08 on unoff2 is extremely difficult. the track just isn't made for these type of cars.

[Da Hoe]

ZOMG, WE NEED TURBO BOOST!

http://turboboost.istheshit.net/

[al heeley]

I really don't see there's a big problem in any of the lfs thracks that would make a boost button improve the quality of the racing experience.

[Huru-aito]

Like Hoe said, Turbo Boost! (http://koti.mbnet.fi/homeunix/fac-temp/personal/huru-aito/kitt.avi)

[JeffR]

Champ cars rules impose a limit on boost and rpms (8500rpm), so in this case increasing the rpms does allow them more power, but not as instantaneously as a NOS button would. In the old days when they ran high speed ovals, the top 2 gears were very close, a few hundred rpm difference is all. The taller gear was used for most of the race to preserve the engine, the slightly lower gear for better speed. I don't know if this is done in IRL.

[Takumi_Project.d]

Another vote for no here.

F1 was looking at implementing this - i feel it's a gimmik to add life to a boring racing class.

[petrichor]

And then we could have sharks with frickin' laser beams, right on their heads, driving the cars, with police sirens and missile launchers behind the license plates ...

[XCNuse]

... what a waste of a post petrichor

@takumi; your right, when i was reading about it, thats pretty much all its for.. said its mainly a "crowd pleaser"

which.. isnt surprising, i was just wondering what yalls thoughts were.. kinda neat idea in a sense though (if your looking for a close fight)

[petrichor]

... what a waste of a post petrichor


For the dense, that was a 'no' vote there.

[aoe_viruz]

That sounds alot like what Honda, Nissan, toyota engines use. For example Honda's use VTEC. And It sounds like a manuel version of it, were you push the button, it inject's oil to activate the higher profile of the camshaft to increase rpm's/power?

[mdmx]

Most of you guys just doesn't seem to get it. :) It got nothing to do with vtec or any other mechanical issue in the engine. It got nothing to do with adding more horsepowers to FO8. It hell no got nothing to do with NOX, which also adds more hp (which btw is a very nice and fun thing in IRL street racing car). It got nothing to do with adding more hp to engine.

More like oppisite, it LIMITS the horsepower. And it allows you to use full power only a 60sec or so in a race. Which adds more strategic element to a race. You should make decision when to use it. If used in wrong place, it can even ruin your race. And it's from REAL live racing, nothing to do with KITT turbobooster.. Are u guys stupid or what? :) Very funny replys. Also it got NOTHING to do with current FO8 racing, it would be a whole other "gaming mode".

Sure it makes races more fun to spectators.. does it make them more fun to drivers as well? Dunno... i might like it, or maybe not, but hell no it's not going to harm _my_ gaming experience in any way, i don't have to play "push-to-pass" races if i don't want to. But with this feature the long races would not be so deadly boring they are now. :scratchch If this is a serious racing sim, i think all kind of races should be simulated. :smileypul

That is really easy feature to implement btw.. i might like it.

[Blackout]

That is really easy feature to implement btw..
How can you be so sure about that?

[Rotary]

And it's from REAL live racing, nothing to do with KITT turbobooster.. Are u guys stupid or what? :) Very funny replys.

LOL, no I am not stupid. There are no Indy car (clones) in LFS, so why do we need "Push to Pass"?? Formula 3000 don't use it, nor does what ever the FOX is a clone off.

Turbo boost is more fun anyway.. I'd rather be able to jump stuff at will than have full access to my engines power for only 60 secs. :D :D

[Woz]

Can't see thee need. If you don’t have the speed and skill to pass the person in front then you don't deserve to pass the person in front.

[DodgeRacer]

er..that doesnt sound kosher to me, but...just a maybe...a wonder...a...its never going to happen but im saying it anyway. how about adjustable boost in the turbo cars? even if its just 5psi or somthin lower side gets better fuel milage and no engine degradation throughout an event, high psi is faster, burns more fuel, engine wears out much faster...would just add another element to the game, but first overall engine degradation would have to be implemented :) Which would overall improve racing because it would possibly encourage people to care of their stuff a little more like in real life, but now im just getting way off topic so..i'll shut up.

[XCNuse]

er... the FV8 is a remodel of the F3000 rotary..?

and Woz.. thats what makes things interesting, plus if you cant pass them.. surely you wouldnt be near them :p.. since they would be slowly getting ahead of you

[detail]

How much hp do those Champ Cars have? Is it possible at all to add 50 to say 700 hp (less than 10%) and get a significant advantage at a short straight?

I'd suggest to make a special car, looking like ChampCar, with such a feature, so that those who want or do not want this effect, would be able to enable or disable it.

[DodgeRacer]

How much hp do those Champ Cars have? Is it possible at all to add 50 to say 700 hp (less than 10%) and get a significant advantage at a short straight?
Judging by watching the champ car races...yes, but they use it more to "catch up" than pass.

[mantis9]

I saw a race last weekend of cars with "push to pass". It was Formula Palmer Audi (http://www.formula-palmer-audi.com) at Silverstone, they call it overboost. I cant say wether it added anything or not, they certainly seemed to be enjoying themselves, plenty of overtaking. Im indifferent to it really, not sure we need it, but Id use it if we got it. I wouldnt hold your breath.

[XCNuse]

just did some more reading about cosworths Push to pass

..this is so cool!

http://www.carkeys.co.uk/features/sport/3673.asp

Not only that, but when the driver pushes the button, a light begins flashing at the rear of his car, showing following competitors that he's about to make a move. There's no light flashing at the front, though, to let whoever's ahead know when to expect a passing manoeuvre.

also it says here.. that it only works when 80% or more throttle is being used at the time [and if lower, it shuts off]

[Unclefloug]

formula one cars have the ability to up there revs during a race, this allows them to gain an advantage but will ultimately uses more fuel, listening to some of the team radio chatter at istanbul today it sounds like some of the teams have a button which automatically ups the rev limit and possible changes, fuel mixtures, engine maps, etc... but f1 cars these days use auto gearboxes or at least semi-autos so i don't see why this would really be worth while in lfs, if u want to stretch that extra bit to pass, shift later.

[tristancliffe]

formula one cars have the ability to up there revs during a race, this allows them to gain an advantage but will ultimately uses more fuel, listening to some of the team radio chatter at istanbul today it sounds like some of the teams have a button which automatically ups the rev limit and possible changes, fuel mixtures, engine maps, etc... but f1 cars these days use auto gearboxes or at least semi-autos so i don't see why this would really be worth while in lfs, if u want to stretch that extra bit to pass, shift later.

You are referring to the BAR (which is the only one to my knowledge to have a steering wheel button dedicated to the task), which has a button that increases the rev limit a bit for a few seconds (somewhere between 5 and 10 seems reasonable, I doubt they have to keep the button held down).

[tpa]

I dont really see a need at all for this, especially with that excessive slipstreaming we have in LFS.

I'd rather see us being able to raise the rpm limiter, once we have cars that'd actually benefit from it. Because then you'd also have to deal with the consequences e.g. overheating engine and such.

I don't want to sound offensive, but a power boost button that gives you extra power and makes your car flash just sounds so... american :D

[XCNuse]

why american.. champ cars dont race in JUST in america :p

[Gunn]

formula one cars have the ability to up there revs during a race, this allows them to gain an advantage but will ultimately uses more fuel, listening to some of the team radio chatter at istanbul today it sounds like some of the teams have a button which automatically ups the rev limit and possible changes, fuel mixtures, engine maps, etc... but f1 cars these days use auto gearboxes or at least semi-autos so i don't see why this would really be worth while in lfs, if u want to stretch that extra bit to pass, shift later.Actually the F1 cars have fuel presets, not a boost button. The driver can choose certain presets (mixtures) which will alter how much fuel the car uses.On the economic presets the car does not perform as well. When the driver needs to make up time he chooses a higher-performing preset, when he needs to conserve fuel he chooses a more economical preset.

In the days of F1 turbo they used to adjust the turbo boost for exactly the same reaon. Races used to be fuel-limited too meaning you only had so much fuel you were allowed to stick in the car. Many of the greats including Prost and Piquet ran out of fuel in sight of the finish line. As tempting as it was to run on full boost, the driver had to be careful how he set the boost and when, so that fuel was used efficently. In the turbo era it was common to "turn up the boost!" when you needed to fight a fast rival, and turn it down when it was safe to cruise. What you saw in Istanbul was a similar situation with a modern application.

[mdmx]

How can you be so sure about that?

I just am.. I am programmer myself, and could very easily implement such a feature if i've got source codes of LFS. :nod: Pretty easy to hack even without sources, just hook a button u want to bind it and throttle pedal from direct input. When "deactived", scale throttle to let's say 0.9 from what it is, and so on.

[L(Oo)ney]

You lot rember LFS rocketman (think it was that). Pretty much did the same thing as what you described mdmx, gave you a speed boost at the touch of the button.

Anyone remember what happened when it was leaked? I do.

Not a good idea imo mdmx, unless you let us know when people are using it, so it cant be used to cheat. ;)

[BlackSpider]

You lot rember LFS rocketman (think it was that). Pretty much did the same thing as what you described mdmx, gave you a speed boost at the touch of the button.

Anyone remember what happened when it was leaked? I do.

Not a good idea imo mdmx, unless you let us know when people are using it, so it cant be used to cheat. ;)

Ooh.. I wasn't around then, what happened, what happened? (I'm eager to hear the dirty!)

[Gunn]

That was completey differentYou lot rember LFS rocketman (think it was that). Pretty much did the same thing as what you described mdmx, gave you a speed boost at the touch of the button.

Anyone remember what happened when it was leaked? I do.

Not a good idea imo mdmx, unless you let us know when people are using it, so it cant be used to cheat. ;)That was different. mdmx is talking about restricting the throttle range until the button is pushed.

[Impreza WRX]

And then we could have sharks with frickin' laser beams, right on their heads, driving the cars, with police sirens and missile launchers behind the license plates ...

No, we'll have frikin' cars with frikin' laser beams on their frikin' hoods!

[colcob]

That was completey differentThat was different. mdmx is talking about restricting the throttle range until the button is pushed.

Hey. My momo pedals already do that.

[RAYfighter]

I don't want to sound offensive, but a power boost button that gives you extra power and makes your car flash just sounds so... american :D

absolutely :wmann3:

My MOMO pedals do that as well. I just need to discover why I spin my LX6 every time I push my (lol) push2pass button... :Looking_a

[XCNuse]

Hey. My momo pedals already do that.

mine thinks that i drive to fast... :p

[bobvanvliet]

I'm sorry to push up this old thread, but after seeing the A1 Grand Prix yesterday I would really like to see a "Push to Pass" button as a server option for the racing cars, so that the admin could determine how many times a racer gets to push the button in a race.

It really added some excitement to yesterday's race and strategy-wise push-to-pass is cooler then pit-strategies I think.

It is a nice and real aspect of motor racing and I think it could add to, for instance, FOX racing. :thumb:

[skiingman]

okay.. well if you dont know what this is, its in the champ car racing series here in the US.


Stupid idea.

Driving faster will get you a lot more.

Its something for good spectating, not good racing. Silly, silly.

[Chris_Kerry]

Another vote for NO here!

[--==Gogo==--]

They have such a button in the A1 GP-Series (GP of Nations).
They can push this button 9 times during a race.

I also don't think, we need this in LfS.

[nikimere]

it would be good if there was a special car made for this (champ car clone or A1 clone). and only implemement it on races more than 20 laps. it should also be disabled for hotlapping. could also be a server option.
i think in short races it would be too gimicky but on long races it could add alot in terms of strategy.
i'm sure it cant be that hard to change some variables that control engine speed for a certain amount of time.
maybe an S3 thing....

[XCNuse]

lol niki im pretty sure all the ideas in this forum are for S3 :p

but i agree, another car please! lol.. that seems more logical really.. i mean.. no point in having it on FOX (been so long i dont know what i posted lol) .. whatever.. no need in FOX, we need a car similar to champ cars

..pretty much everything you say niki i agree with lol

[bobvanvliet]

Its something for good spectating, not good racing. Silly, silly.
I don't really agree with that. First of all, more overtaking also produces more exciting racing imho, not just better watching. Secondly and more importantly, it adds a tactical element I think could be fun. This button will not magically teleport you in front of the car in front of you, it requires skill to use (and can be countered with skill by the defending driver).

Nobody is asking for this to be present on every server, it should of course be a server-side option to give drivers an X amount of these.

Finally, it is present in several real-life racing classes, so the option for a server to run push-to-pass-buttoned cars would increase LFS' ability to recreate as many forms of RL racing as possible. I don't really see what can be wrong with that. :thumb:

[skiingman]

I don't really agree with that. First of all, more overtaking also produces more exciting racing imho, not just better watching. Secondly and more importantly, it adds a tactical element I think could be fun. This button will not magically teleport you in front of the car in front of you, it requires skill to use (and can be countered with skill by the defending driver).

Do you ever run KY Oval in the FV8?

The massive drafting effect is similar to "push to pass" and it encourages blocking and otherwise unclean racing. Its fun...for about 20 minutes. It would be much more interesting if that effect was more realistic IMO.

Maybe I don't join the uber-cool servers, but in the Formula cars I'm rarely involved in a race that's close enough for such a concept to make a difference anyhow. As noted, the massive drafting effect already serves the same purpose of what you are talking about, and I'm kind of annoyed by it.

... would increase LFS' ability to recreate as many forms of RL racing as possible. I don't really see what can be wrong with that. :thumb:

I don't agree that those "real life" classes are actually exhibiting racing, I believe they are mere shows put on to draw crowds and make money. Real racing tends to be more expensive.

[Fonnybone]

I don't agree that those "real life" classes are actually exhibiting racing
That's ok, no one is forcing you to, that's the beauty of democraty.
What IS racing ? Or more appropriately, what do you consider 'racing' ?
What i don't understand is why you don't see the link between:

I believe they are mere shows put on to draw crowds and make money.
and
Real racing tends to be more expensive.

First off, "shows put on to draw crowds" ?! Isn't that what a show IS by
definition ?! I'd like an example of a show NOT meant to attract
attention/people or make money. Even charities do JUST that. You can't
deny the fact that things cost money and that you need people to pay
for that. Publicity/sponsoring is one of the most used way to get money
in racing. The cars themselves are a shame to any tree-hugging anti-
globalization hippie. Covered in stickers from various companies, who's
only intend is to 1-get attention to 2-eventually make more money.

Now, considering YOU are the spectator, can you at least appreciate the
fact that someone actually cares about you enough to find ways to make
it more enjoyable for you ? We can contest the validity of 'enjoyable', but
not it's intentions.

As much as 'Push-2-Pass' sounds ricey to me and scares the conservative
geezer in me, i find all arguments valid and have a hard time finding fault in
something meant to increase the strategic side of racing. What IS racing?
Is it the driver? the car? The team, the people who build the cars, Bernie
Ecclestone, the actual people making these things exist, the spectators?
Is it the strategic pitting for tires and fuel and settings? So, which one is it?
Is it ALL of these ? I find it hard to define racing myself. All i know, is it sure
seems to depend on your perspective.

[RAYfighter]

What IS racing?
Is it the driver? the car? The team, the people who build the cars, Bernie
Ecclestone, the actual people making these things exist, the spectators?
Is it the strategic pitting for tires and fuel and settings? So, which one is it?
Is it ALL of these ? I find it hard to define racing myself. All i know, is it sure
seems to depend on your perspective.

F1 as the queen of all motorsports seems to be handy example for this discussion. And eventhough it's difficult to define what is racing, indeed, I honestly believe that LFS is closer to F1 than to NASCAR, or closer to WRC than to some Monster Truck Madness and similiar shows. (Sorry I don't have examples here, because I don't watch such things. I know they exist to watch them, but to me they got the cheap disneyland taste).

I'm not saying that for example drifting with its D1 events doesn't attract many many people. I'm just saying my oppinion where I see the Liveforspeed belongs. Or, better said, inclines. :scratchch

[skiingman]

You can't
deny the fact that things cost money and that you need people to pay
for that. Publicity/sponsoring is one of the most used way to get money
in racing. The cars themselves are a shame to any tree-hugging anti-
globalization hippie. Covered in stickers from various companies, who's
only intend is to 1-get attention to 2-eventually make more money.

Fine. They can do all this without changing it from "racing" to "spectacle".

Now, considering YOU are the spectator, can you at least appreciate the
fact that someone actually cares about you enough to find ways to make
it more enjoyable for you ? We can contest the validity of 'enjoyable', but
not it's intentions.

No, I don't appreciate it. None of these spectacles are designed to be interesting to race fans. They are designed to be interesting to people NOT INTERESTED IN WATCHING A REAL RACE.

The financial issues involved aren't my problem. When men were men, no one complained about the race team being a money loser. Now some series have teams that EXPECT to profit. Silly. Winners should profit...losers should lose. Cost of racing.

As much as 'Push-2-Pass' sounds ricey to me and scares the conservative
geezer in me, i find all arguments valid and have a hard time finding fault in
something meant to increase the strategic side of racing.

Strategic side?

As in, NASCAR "strategically" guaranteeing you are given an entire free lap on the competition so the race can be artificially closer? Bullshit.

Strategy is ensuring you don't end up a lap down in the first place.

What IS racing?

A contest of speed betwen vehicles innovatively built to a common standard. With a minimum of rules to interfere with the contest to see who finishes first.

All i know, is it sure
seems to depend on your perspective.

I disagree. I think pure racing is inherently simple. Run around the track without going off, attempt to pass the white line before the other guy. Complexities abound when the road is wet (GASP! Racing in the wet? Southerners...er...NASCAR drivers can't do that!) or the car needs repair, fuel, adjustments, whatever.

Race fans enjoy racing. Promoters are not happy with just "race fans", they want to put on a spectacle to attract more people. How popular is real wrestling? How popular is "pro" wrestling?

NASCAR, CART, IRL, et. al. are all forms of "pro" racing, where the fans often don't acknowledge they aren't seeing the genuine article.

[XCNuse]

No, I don't appreciate it. None of these spectacles are designed to be interesting to race fans. They are designed to be interesting to people NOT INTERESTED IN WATCHING A REAL RACE.
er... you might want to reread about it then, because it was in fact made exactly for that reason and for strategy..

[RMachucaA]

no push to pass imho. its a lame tactic.

[skiingman]

er... you might want to reread about it then, because it was in fact made exactly for that reason and for strategy..

What are you talking about?

The sole reason it exists is to artificially increase the number of times overtaking occurs.

[Hankstar]

Regardless of the merits of Push To Pass in real life, in LFS it would be a waste of code.
As it only occurs in one real life racing series, I can't see why the devs would want to implement it in LFS, especially considering they aren't simulating any real life series at all. The only sim I would expect to see PTP in would obviously be an Indy sim.

[bobvanvliet]

it only occurs in one real life racing series
Not to be rude here, but read the thread and/or do your homework.

I'm still of the opinion that push-to-pass adds something, and if it's so impopular as this thread implies, there won't be many servers running the option...

Hey, there are a lot of people who think drifting is bad, but there are a few servers for those (not me, btw) that like it. Why can't it be the same for PtP? Then you can all look down on the losers who race there :razz: :thumb: .

[XCNuse]

are you sure skiingman? would you like me to point it out to everyone here? well.. here it is, this is from the link i posted on page2 of this thread
In an effort to make the race more competitive - and who would argue with that as a laudable ambition?...The Push-to-Pass technology gives the drivers more ability to pass . . . and we expect a lot of action this year
and if you look other places, you will see that it does say it was made for spectators and racers alike

@hankstar; trust me hah.. you will NEVER see this on an indy car game... evern; the only racing that uses push to pass is formula atlantic

[Gunn]

I think push to pass is embarassing in real life and certainly dilutes the whole motorsport experience. I'll never pay to watch it.

[ColeusRattus]

I think push to pass is embarassing in real life and certainly dilutes the whole motorsport experience. I'll never pay to watch it.

I think, the reason why push to pass is introduced into a rascing league is quite simple: If there are only few overtakings, the race is boring. Boring races don't attract many spectators. Fewer spectators mean the sponsors will pay less.

Therefor, push to pass is simply another method to maximize spectators and thus increasing the profits...

[RAYfighter]

@hankstar; trust me hah.. you will NEVER see this on an indy car game... evern; the only racing that uses push to pass is formula atlantic

http://boss.streamos.com/wmedia/a1gp/archive/2005/brands_hatch/brands_hatch-1.wvx

:shrug:


and BTW, if you search and read more about the A1 GRAND PRIX project, you will probably agree with me, that it's gonna be a very racing happening - absolutely same cars, just different setups, powerboost button with exactly the same functionality and rules as the originator of this thread suggested, national teams (all 20 members of the whole team have to be from the same nation, great!) - I like the idea, and so I'm slowly moving from the opponents to the supporters gang for this Push to Pass idea.

LiveForSpeed inspired the biggest motorsports event of these days, YAY! :razz:

[Gunn]

Yes the A1 is dissapointing right from the very beginning. First they promise a series based on driver vs. driver, then they add a push to pass button. Crazy.

Much of the problem with lack of overtaking opportunities these days stems from a modern machine on an out-dated circuit. Tracks are often too skinny for the fast cars of today, they go quick they stop quick. A well-designed circuit would help alleviate many problems. Motor racing has had no problem attracting crowds since the early 1930's, push to pass is not the answer to inject excitement. Push to pass makes you doubt the driver's skill. I recall drivers like Mansell, Senna, Prost, Piquet, Lauda, and the like all having moments of sheer bravery and brilliance when overtaking or defending under pressure. These moments are created when skilled and brave drivers use their skill and wits to battle each other. Overtaking is supposed to be hard. The "take" part hints at action. Something that must be earned.

To add such measures for spectator appeal is really sad. With push to pass, overtaking becomes just a ritual. I want to see them earn their positions, I want to know the true winner.

[Fonnybone]

Yes the A1 is dissapointing right from the very beginning. First they promise a series based on driver vs. driver, then they add a push to pass button. Crazy.

Much of the problem with lack of overtaking opportunities these days stems from a modern machine on an out-dated circuit. (...) Motor racing has had no problem attracting crowds since the early 1930's, push to pass is not the answer to inject excitement. Push to pass makes you doubt the driver's skill. I recall drivers like Mansell, Senna, Prost, Piquet, Lauda, and the like all having moments of sheer bravery and brilliance when overtaking or defending under pressure. These moments are created when skilled and brave drivers use their skill and wits to battle each other. Overtaking is supposed to be hard. The "take" part hints at action. Something that must be earned.


This is where the concept of racing differs from one person to another.
I prefer to see gladiator-style racing. Give 'em cars too powerfull for their
chassis, and let drivers battle out for outright guts.

Racing used to be about having the biggest balls not about being as
consistent as possible not to be out of place in an otherwise 'perfect'
equation. This is why the public has such a fascination with race drivers.
Gladiator racing has been popular for 1000s of years. Schumacher might
seem like a courageous person compared to his contemporaries, but
as hard as driving an F1 must be, i doubt it compares to most racing done
in the 20-30's, and i bet Ben-Hur would kick his butt until he cries like a
little girl. I wonder how many people complained about 'dumbing down'
charriot races...
- "Those spikes are totally gay"
- "I liked gladiator racing when it was more about the racing than the killing.."

Today's racing is all about the machines and unfortunately, people don't
care for the machines as much as the drivers, probably because drivers
don't have as much credit for using a machine made to work at 10/10th
all the time. It's all a question of millisecond.

What made pasing a skill is exactly that cars were much more powerfull
(relative to the rest of the cars) and dangerous, even in the in the 70-80s,
the F1 golden era, and therefore the driver with the most guts came out on
top. Just seeing drivers in the 30s fall out of 100mph+ vehicles as it crashes
through the crowd and kills 10s of people was enough to warrant fascination
for a person who would chose to do such a thing. It's like those astronauts,
you guys ever ask yourself if you'd accept to be strapped to explosive and be
rocketed out into space ? It takes guts to try things despite the danger.

In that regard, NASCAR is much less dumbed down than F1 because, like
it's always been in the past, it's a showcase of driver courage. Wether
the danger is there or only perceived is not important imo. It's the
closest thing to the oldest form of racing, NASCAR IS the modern
chariot racing imo. F1 is just a bunch of rich snobs counting on technology
to give them artificial courage and capabilities. The danger is just not felt
by the spectators until the driver dies or something really dramatic happens.
NASCAR is gritty and dirty and reflects reality much better, there's
cheating and b!tching and contact, no one wants people to get hurt, but
they still like contact. They'll even throw a punch or two sometimes.
Now, i don't like NASCAR myself, but i can appreciate it and sometimes like
to watch lower classes of stockcar racing where you see old 70's Malibus
bashing with T-birds and such in a 1-mile oval. It's just more fun to watch
than a bunch of high speed trains, F1 is about as fun to watch as golf or
listening to baseball on the radio sometimes. There's just no action.

[Hankstar]

OK Duckboy, I happily stand corrected. :thumb:

But who uses PTP is irrelevant when you consider that my point was this: The vast majority of RL racing series don't use it, and good or bad for racing, right or wrong, whatever race series do use it, you probably won't see this function in LFS, because, unless I've got it totally wrong or I've misread the devs' own press releases, LFS is more about accurately simulating driving and racing than replicating every single thing or function that real cars can do or have. Plus there are still only 3 guys making this game, and I think 2 of them don't have very much at all to do with car physics.

[XCNuse]

i agree with your post there hankstar, but its always good to point out things that may bring people to the game ;)

not saying that LFS needs to simulate ALL types of racing, its just something things in certain types of racing are interesting to think about; much less try .. but unfortunately, i doubt many people here could afford to guy "try out" say.. an F3000 lol (yes i know, they do have schools, but thats besides the point :p)

[Gunn]

Today's racing is all about the machines..This is a popular but naive view. The fact remains that any two drivers do not set up and drive the same car the same way, they are not as fast as each other in the same place on the circuit (yes a real circuit not an oval), they think differently about racing and have different styles, their teams are involved and are also pivotal in the success or failure of the car and driver. There is so much involved in getting your team's car across the line these days in real racing. It is not mainly about the machine at all. In F1 we see the pinnacle of racing (and even aerospace) technology, but still there are great differences between drivers and other people important to the drivers. A race is conducted across several days and can be won or lost at any point therein. It is too complex for many to enjoy, but to paint F1 as a simple case of "the fastest car wins" is really wrong. Using Nascar as a comparitive example only lessens the credibilty of the argument since it has nothing in common with F1 at all and is so far apart from F1 as to be considered incomaparable. I agree that if you apply F1 conditions to oval racing it would be even more boring (hard to imagine, I know) than it already is but F1 has variety built in to the racing where Nascar has no variety at all. Perhaps oval racing needs a push to pass button to prevent the drivers from dozing off? Then again, causing half the field to erupt into a blazing ball of flame seems to be a real crowd pleaser for many Nascar fans.

[skiingman]

To add such measures for spectator appeal is really sad. With push to pass, overtaking becomes just a ritual. I want to see them earn their positions, I want to know the true winner.

:tup:

Great set of posts.

Montoya past Schumacher last year at Spa still remains in my mind one of the best passes I've seen in a long time. If he did it with "push to pass", he would have done it on a straight, or somewhere similarly boring.

[RacingSimFan]

PtP's origins were in keeping with traditions of racing. Back when CART(ChampCar) had multiple engine suppliers who were allowed a measure of inventiveness, Honda(i think) came up with a button that allowed the engine to run at maximum allowed turbo boost for as long as the button was pushed. Once let go, the boost would return to a more conservative level set by each team to make sure their engines lasted the distance. There were no limits of any kind imposed on use of the button. The strategy was to make sure not to blow up the engine by running it too hard for too long. The engines in those days were, like F1, run on the verge of detonation and teams and engine manufacturers pushed that envelope as hard as they dared in order to go faster.

Now with restrictions much tighter and spec engines owned by the series itself and rev-limited, Champ Car turned PtP into a gimmick by slapping a time limit on it and wiring it up to the pop-off valve to simply move from one series-mandated limit to another.

Under the old way, PtP was an innovation used by teams to push engines even closer to the breaking point in the search for extra temporary power when needed. But this way is just a gimmick to create a better "show".

[Funnybear]

This might be an old thread but I just read it all and wanted to point something out. I do believe (I am very aware that I could be horrible wrong here. but I think my point will still stand) that the Fox has a loose basis on Formula3000, renault, Ford and possible Formula 3. I am fairly sure that at least two of those series have P2P buttons. The rules I am not sure of, but they do exist in competative racing. So surely if LFS is the simulator it claims to be then the inclusion of a P2P button on at least one series car is only realistic! REgardless whether peeps find them uselss, annoying, pointless or misplaced. They are in Real Life, so therefore they should be simulated . . .

Savvy? . . .

P.S. It ain't NOS. NOS comes in a cylinder, has the capabilty of blowing your engine to bits and makes you laugh lots if you breath it in. P2P is a engine management system governed by the rules of the race series, or a small handheld device made by Sony.

P.P.S I like the Laser beam idea. Could we have sharks in cars with Laser beams?

[ramtech]

P.S. It ain't NOS. NOS comes in a cylinder, has the capabilty of blowing your engine to bits and makes you laugh lots if you breath it in. P2P is a engine management system governed by the rules of the race series, or a small handheld device made by Sony.
the "small handheld device by Sony"'s name is PSP not p2p :P
and NOS wont make u laugh if u breath it in..
:P

[tristancliffe]

Yes it will - Nitrous Oxide is laughing gas, and is also used in childbirth to ease the pain.

[Hyperactive]

Yes it will - Nitrous Oxide is laughing gas, and is also used in childbirth to ease the pain.

:hidesbehi

[XCNuse]

Yes it will - Nitrous Oxide is laughing gas, and is also used in childbirth to ease the pain.
it smells funny too.. i remember smelling it when i got my wisdom teeth out last christmas.. smelled really .. weird cant really describe it, but it most certainly wasnt the most pleasant smell (reminded me of the smells in like.. kindergarden classes)

[ajp71]

that the Fox has a loose basis on Formula3000, renault, Ford and possible Formula 3. I am fairly sure that at least two of those series have P2P buttons.


None of them have P2P, I am only aware of Palmer Audi using this system.

[thisnameistaken]

My first ever trip was on nitrous at the dentists, when I was about six or seven. Everything looked like it was swamped in crap digital effects from really bad '80s music videos. I also once stood in playing bass for a band whose bassist had overdosed on nitrous at a party. Don't do nitrous, kids!

[ajp71]

In my view we do not need newer, wider tracks, with nice corners, little elevation change, slightly cambered corners, that are extremely smooth with a sea of tarmac run off area. These tracks are frankly dull and boring and provide good races in nothing short of very big high powered ground effect cars. The current F1 cars/big single seaters are absolutley enormous, I know a lot of the reason they are so big is because the FIA has decided that any possible risk of injury must be irradicated.

I'm not saying that new tracks should be built more dangerously than they need to be, or trying to say that new devices like HANS are bad, just that safety is now effecting to much of the car and track design, if you could have a politically correct motor racing circuit it certainly wouldn't be Spa or the Nurburgring but who cares? they are what they are partly through the immense challenge and ridiculous levels of danger they through at you. Todays F1 drivers are more likely to injure themselves falling down the stairs than racing there cars, even if they manage to find something to hit amongst the sea of tarmac.

Back on topic, I would normally be opposed to a system like push to pass, but if it really could help then maybe it's worth a try. As for all those complaining about motorsport being all about cars, it is ;), the driver is only a (rather important) part of a racing car. The level of control the FIA has over F1 design is stupid, why can it not learn that producing what is almost the worst possible case of a one make formula, the team with the most money/expertise is always going to do best, if you allowed for radical innovation then one team could suddenly leap ahead of those on bigger budgets.

The last thing I'd say is single seater racing must never turn into what WRC teams did complaing about the Safari, great tracks like Spa must stay in the calendar, they may be narrow and bumpy with run off areas that actually lead to barriers, but the cars must be adapted to the track, not the track to the cars. If Stefan Belof managed a 956 round the ring 20 years ago then there's really no excuse why ground effects cars can't go over bumps now.

[MAGGOT]

amen.

[micha1980de]

Right - time to settle it.

This does exist in real life. The systems used are all slightly different. Some just allow higher revs, others change the fuel mapping and ignition timing etc, whilst a few increase the boost momentarily. I think the turbo boost option was actually initiated by the people that run the sport.

However, I don't think we need it in LFS. The only reason they did it in real life is to artificially increase overtaking to improve audiences. In live for speed it should be about the purest racing possible, without such aids to assist. And besides, does anyone think the racing would benefit if the FOX or FO8 had such a button? The last thing we need is more power in the FO8 at the moment.

So, whilst XCN is right about it being a real life thing, I have to disagree (sorry XCN) on it's use in LFS. I am a purist (see my sig), and therefore I cannot condone any forms of driver aids (which this is - a passing aid).


First of all, nice statements, second, why is "racing" in general so interessting?
To give you a hint, it's about excitement of the AUDIENCE cause the audience pays for it.
racing is pretty much like a circus where clowns and dompteurs show off.
so if the race is predictable, (Wich it is at the moment) then it's "not amusing" like the brits say.
And think a moment about it, right now theres to little coincidence or chance for any racer to win IF and ONLY if others make mistakes (in short races) cause several influences just don't apply.
So why not make it more interessting? and more restricted like powerboost yes, but only if you accept another 2 mins normal-mode.
then 1 powerboost again.
And talking about purism, why was the turbo used in the first place?
(huh get it?)
I can understand why the tbo was removed from Formel cars, cause there way to powerfull for the driver-safety at this time or present time.
i guess one day we'll see completely automated race(r)s....

[micha1980de]

I don't understand your argument. You're saying that a boost button would make short races in LFS more interesting? How? If everybody's got the boost button, I don't see how it would make any difference at all.

With the huge slipstream effect currently in LFS it's already easy enough to make a pass in all but the slowest cars. I think a boost button would do nothing more than cause more accidents on the way to the first corner, more restarts, less interesting racing.

Well in that case it's the problem of the "hot heads" but if it's a narrow track like SO then a boost once in a while can keep you in business or off track.
thats why i was insisting on the restriction of that boost.

However it's your responsibility to use it wisely and not for some unnecessary action that won't help our the opposite car.

[XCNuse]

@thisnameismistaken;
you only have a short amount of time that you are allowed to use it, its not like something you hold down and go that fast for..ever

plus, where does anyone have a place to pass in say.. south city unnoficial (2? the short one).. you dont, and with push to pass, you could overtake .. whenever you have a chance to, otherwise your just following the whole time, thats what push to pass was made for; the short tracks where you cant get fast enough to pass anywhere

also, take this into concideration; if this is 'pointless' in your terms, then why dont we get rid of the whole pit settings so no one can get an advantage, but instead everyone has to get the same amount of gas and the same amount of tires etc. push to pass is like pitting tactics.. its just another way to try to keep on top of the game

[ajp71]

Please we do not need push to pass, it's a load of bollocks, quite frankly I'd rather watch a boring F1 race with the odd stunning pass, like Alonsos? pass round Schumy on the outside of the 130R :yikes:

In LFS there's more than enough passing in the single seaters, I know it seems awful to say but I would actually like to see a better simulation of dirty air (donning flame proof suit) even if it reduces the passing. In LFS atm there actually is even passing in the FOX in corners, just like in real small single seaters, I'm not fast but there are still the odd race I have battling wheel to wheel for 5 laps for a mid-field spot, constantly overtaking sometimes through others making mistakes (as in slightly wide, not in the gravel), but that's how 80% of racing passes happen, 10% are barged off the road by arrogant twats and 10% are total magic going off line to pass :D

[XCNuse]

well let me just say something about what you just said; you yourself:

"Don't you think I'd see it coming and just press my button too?"
doesnt that just make the setting a bit more dramatic? its not really any type of advantage since everyone has it at their fingertips; but its when you use it, if you use all your time and have none.. what about someone in the rear that hasnt used it at all, he can get some passes in
..and.. i cant think of where to go from that lol

[ajp71]

IMO racing is about racing, not a spectator spectacle. We need not put on a show for tv or we are not dumb rich millionares who need a boost button to be able to make their package car go faster. Fact is single seaters rarely overtake IRL, so why should that be any different in LFS. If you want constant overtaking play TRD/GT/NFS if you want a realistic simulation of big single seaters you ain't going to make many passes. Even in touring cars street circuits do not have much passing.

[seinfeld]

all open weelers F1, indy, A1 grandprix, F3000, Formula nippon have this option call it what u will boost turbo boost, its an integral part, also F1 and such have mixture setting which determin amount of fuel going into engine and power output
very real , and would be good addition and would also increase pit stop strategy and whatnot

[seinfeld]

Please we do not need push to pass, it's a load of bollocks, quite frankly I'd rather watch a boring F1 race with the odd stunning pass, like Alonsos? pass round Schumy on the outside of the 130R :yikes:

In LFS there's more than enough passing in the single seaters, I know it seems awful to say but I would actually like to see a better simulation of dirty air (donning flame proof suit) even if it reduces the passing. In LFS atm there actually is even passing in the FOX in corners, just like in real small single seaters, I'm not fast but there are still the odd race I have battling wheel to wheel for 5 laps for a mid-field spot, constantly overtaking sometimes through others making mistakes (as in slightly wide, not in the gravel), but that's how 80% of racing passes happen, 10% are barged off the road by arrogant twats and 10% are total magic going off line to pass :D

he actually would of used mix 5 which is rich setting to give him some more power in that pass, or over rev button to hold the gear longer

[keiran]

Seinfeld using a push to pass system creates an artificial way to get the extra boost to pass someone. In F1 it's all about endurance so engines are turned down as to conserve them but when needed they can change the mixture and up the revs to aid their challenge. You can't compare a push to pass system to changing the mixture. It doesn't make sense to compare the two :shrug:

I agree the spectator spetacle isn't really important in motor racing. If F1 lost all it's spectators it would still continue just not on the scale it does now because of the lack of funding from sponsors.

Keiran

[ajp71]

No Alonso's pass was nothing to do with a rev limiter release button or this magical turbo boost a 3 litre naturally aspirated V10 has, it was the brilliance and bravery of keeping going flat round the outside on one of the most daunting corners in the world, which most people were lifting for even on the racing line.

As for this F1/F3000 having a turbo boost/fuel mapping change button it's bollocks, they do not end of story. As for the other formulae, they may well do but they are just the latest crop of Playstation era single seaters. Built for TV and not reflecting the true values of racing which is what LFS should follow IMO.

Some people may say they want F1 cars, I don't I'd rather have Group C cars, although Redline have already filled that void. I don't think LFS could do historics well because of a. the physics (just wouldn't suit IMO) and b. it just wouldn't be right if they weren't real cars.

If you really want to watch identical cars and identical drivers driving identical races on identical characterless tracks in the Middle East then the Bernie/Flavio mixture with all the single make series under the sun then this latest crop of TV formulae are for you.

If you want real excitment and variety of grids then historics are for you. Look back 20 years ago and you didn't have to be told the race was exciting because driver X had passed driver A with his NOS/turbo boost/warp drive button. Group C cars were thrilling as they really were fast beyond belief in a straight line (and still had full ground effects). I've never had to watch a live F1 race, seen a few demonstration laps and all I can say is it's nothing thrilling when you compare it to the TGP practice session or even the odd historic F1 car I've seen testing at Mallory. Unfortunatley I've never seen a grid of Group C cars in action, just a few C2 cars.

[LePimpMyRoller]

Like Hoe said, Turbo Boost! (http://koti.mbnet.fi/homeunix/fac-temp/personal/huru-aito/kitt.avi)

LOL

[Thorvertonian]

As for this F1/F3000 having a turbo boost/fuel mapping change button it's bollocks, they do not end of story.

Actually they do....

If you listen to team radio they often ask the driver the change the engine map A B C or D, I don't know the specifics of what this actually does, but it definetley changes the rev limit....

It's all about making those engine's last!

[tristancliffe]

I think all the F1 teams have controls on the wheel for fuel mapping now, with a range something like 1 to 8, where 1 might be leanest (but still with an AFR less that stoichiometric) and 8 will be richest at around AFR=13.5.

The difference in power will be quite small, and the difference in fuel consumption will be tiny too and tend to add up over a large distance.

Thus fuel mapping in LFS with mostly short races and less powerful cars will be pointless. 2% difference in power or fuel consumption won't be noticable. As for push to pass, we are not in the position real life is in having to artificially spice up the racing. Just because it's in real life doesn't mean it's there for the right reasons nor in keeping with LFS.

[JJ72]

I don't get the point of the argument.

Is that now we can't possibly past in LFS with these cars and tracks? no.

Is that the racing in LFS now is boring? no.

Is that LFS team will go bankrupt because our races aren't spectacular enough? no.

Of course in the puriest form many features in LFS or even real racing are indeed pointless,why not put 22 identical car and just race to the flag right? but there's a balance among everything and when we already get the right balance why mess with it?

[boosterfire]

IMO, push to pass is really stupid, even in Champ car. They should never have put that. I mean... it's a race of pilots and cars. Why had something that come against that? It's like: "I'm not good enough to pass the guy in front, so i'll use PtP... *click* zooooommmm"... :shrug:

[GT4Fan]

You will see that in LFS then though, it will be abused just because it's a game, and maybe pushing everything at once is eventually better ingame.

Because imagine you are at 1st place. You are better off using all the extra power, to power away from the 2nd placed car, then using it to gain UP on your opponent.
Lemme explain these 2 situations:

1. Using the power for non-overtaking situations:
Your line will not be limited by another car so you will use all power efficiently, you will not have additional risks like ending up side by side and having to outbrake another person too, so your sparing your tyres.

2. Using to overtake:
You will need to get off the ideal line to be able to overtake another car and THEN after loosing 3KM/H you will use the push-to-overtake button. You will probably end up with nothing cause the other car will probably use your slipstream to keep with you, so the advantage of speed is soon caught up by the 2nd car. Plus because the gap will stay very small, chances of crashing under trying-to-get-away-pressure will only increase dramatically, especially in unforgiving racing cars. These risks dont increase much for the 2nd car cause it's easy for him to just copy your movements and go just as fast while waiting on an error. Plus just having to look in the mirror all the time really distracts...

Those things should be very deciding in a close race. I bet that it's far better to use it while your NOT in an overtaking move. So it kinda looses it's purpose right away...

[XCNuse]

lol im amazed this thread seems to come alive again .. so many times lol

[GT4Fan]

Lol I just edited my post 3 times, it's a pretty cool topic:)
But simply, it's just a game and the push-to-pass button will probably end up being used for everything BUT passing and overtaking...

And if you dont understand that look 2 posts up again:)

[marzman]

It's 60 seconds, and the newly formed A1GP series also has that button... There it is actually called push-to-pass or PowerBoost.

I saw this had a minus in the suggested improvements log, but it could actualy be a good idea if it was only implanted in a special class. In A1 it works very good for the action on the track. Drivers get limited powerboosts for a race.

In A1GP:
Specifically, the cars have a 600 kg monocoque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocoque) chassis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chassis) designed by Lola (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lola_Racing_Cars) and model-370/660R13 slick tires (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slick_tire) from Cooper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooper_Tire_%26_Rubber_Company). Zytek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zytek) provide a performance-limited 3.4 litre V8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8) engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine), however its performance limitation can be overcome by the driver pressing a button on their steering wheel. This so-called boost button or overtake button increases the engine output, revs and horsepower while the accelerator remains depressed, increasing speed and facilitating easier overtaking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtaking). The overtake button may only be used a limited number of times in each race, which is pre-programmed beforehand and identical for each car.


Lol I just edited my post 3 times, it's a pretty cool topic
But simply, it's just a game and the push-to-pass button will probably end up being used for everything BUT passing and overtaking...

And if you dont understand that look 2 posts up again

No it won't. You have limited boosts, otherwise people would put a bit of tape on the button and boost for the entire race ;)

You will see that in LFS then though, it will be abused just because it's a game, and maybe pushing everything at once is eventually better ingame.

Because imagine you are at 1st place. You are better off using all the extra power, to power away from the 2nd placed car, then using it to gain UP on your opponent.
Lemme explain these 2 situations:

1. Using the power for non-overtaking situations:
Your line will not be limited by another car so you will use all power efficiently, you will not have additional risks like ending up side by side and having to outbrake another person too, so your sparing your tyres.

2. Using to overtake:
You will need to get off the ideal line to be able to overtake another car and THEN after loosing 3KM/H you will use the push-to-overtake button. You will probably end up with nothing cause the other car will probably use your slipstream to keep with you, so the advantage of speed is soon caught up by the 2nd car. Plus because the gap will stay very small, chances of crashing under trying-to-get-away-pressure will only increase dramatically, especially in unforgiving racing cars. These risks dont increase much for the 2nd car cause it's easy for him to just copy your movements and go just as fast while waiting on an error. Plus just having to look in the mirror all the time really distracts...

Those things should be very deciding in a close race. I bet that it's far better to use it while your NOT in an overtaking move. So it kinda looses it's purpose right away...

The driver is free to use the button for other purposes. Also in real racing, but if in A1GP a car is leading for a long part of the race the driver usually saves the powerboost for in case he makes a mistake or something else happens and the number2 comes to close. It's an extra strategy thingy for the driver, not only to overtake.

[March Hare]

Holy thread resurrection batman!

[Kazu2799]

push to pass button -1 but it would be nice to have a fuel/air mixture tuner like IRL used to have. It would add some strategy options for long races

[duke_toaster]

push to pass button -1 but it would be nice to have a fuel/air mixture tuner like IRL used to have. It would add some strategy options for long races

Adjustable fuel mixture would be interesting for longer races. For shorter ones, of course, we would just chuck it on to maximum.

[Gunn]

What would be nice is a "push-to-pass-this-thread" button :razz:

[micha1980de]

don't you have the ability to close or delete the thread?

[Thorvertonian]

Powerboost like in A1 is a good thing, limited amount of presses, and it cuts out when ever the accelerator is lifted, so it only works in current gear, which is why they can't boost out of a corner.

[scania]

I just think that impossible is nothing in LFS

[Impreza WRX]

That sounds alot like what Honda, Nissan, toyota engines use. For example Honda's use VTEC. And It sounds like a manuel version of it, were you push the button, it inject's oil to activate the higher profile of the camshaft to increase rpm's/power?
Actually, no, VTEC is fully automatic, and it uses the camshafts to make power, where there are two different cams, one that gives the engine midrage power, and a second cam, the VTEC cam, which, when locked in at the precise RPM that both cams make the same amount in power, turns the engine into a top end screamer. If you ran always on VTEC you would not have much low end or midrage power, and without the VTEC cam you won't have top end power. I still have the picture of the Honda manual that displays the theory about how VTEC works.

What push to pass does is simply turning off the rev limiter to allow you to "stretch" the gear before upshifting. On these race engines, they can make power beyond the "redline", so by using p2p you turn off the rev limiter to stay in a lower gear longer, hence more acceleration.

[Hankstar]

don't you have the ability to close or delete the thread?

Some threads are like the heads of the Hydra - nail one and two more spring up to replace it ...

[Gunn]

don't you have the ability to close or delete the thread?Yes, but I wouldn't close a thread just because its topic didn't appeal to me. As much as I think push to pass is a stupid idea in real life (and would also be stupid in LFS), it would not be right for me to prevent others from discussing it here.

The worst thing about A1GP is you never know when someone has pulled off a skillful overtaking maneuver or if they just pushed their hyperdrive button instead. There's that whole fake NFS thing about it. I'd rather watch real racing amongst drivers who must fight for every gain.

[Hankstar]

Obviously, P2P is one of those things that's thrown into a sport purely to "add spectacle" for the viewers. I understand that - I also understand that some governing bodies simply can't abide not pandering to TV stations (and therefore advertisers). But why isn't watching highly-skilled pilots battle each other inches apart at multiple-life-threatening speed spectacular enough? Look at F1 (although it has governing-body problems of its own relating to "spectacle"), NASCAR, MotoGP, V8 Supercabs, WRC, various touring car & single-seat series worldwide and all the other hugely popular racing series that don't feature P2P. Noone's complaining that those aren't exciting enough, are they? If they are, then it's quite clear that those people are (a) wrong and (b) stupid.

The thing that I don't quite get is this: Indy and A1GP are two series that least need P2P imho, given the closely-matched cars (exactly-matched in A1GP's case). You'd think in a spec series that the skills of the drivers and team would take precedence without needing gimmicks like warp drive, which weren't implemented for the sake of the drivers at all. LFS isn't a spectator sport by any means, so why should it have pure spectator candy like P2P?

[JustForFunRacing]

Sorry for digging that out - but I was to suggest a push to pass button. But the seach function told me that it already had been suggested.

However I just visited the DTM race at the Nürburgring this weekend and I also have seen the VW Scirocco cup too.

These cars have 225hp and a push-to-pass button to increase the power by 50hp to 275hp for 10 sec only.

This button can be pressed 10 times a race and there has to be a brake of 30 sec. after you pressed it.

I really think this makes a race even more interesting! You can pass at the end of a straight - but others see that you are using the button atm as a blue light is switched on in the front and the back while using the button.

There also is a LED in the rear window showing how often you still can use this button.

[thepros]

i think this a great idea it's the kers button in f1 this idea is amazing i hope i can see it in the future of lfs good job of figuring out such an idea

[logitekg25]

i dont think this is a good idea...just because you saw it in a real race doesnt mean its a good idea...imagine this in the oval..just not a good idea :shrug:

[JustForFunRacing]

+1 for the oval...

But imagine that button in a UFR / XFR... at BL1:

You just passed someone before T1. Then you press the button to get rid of him on the long straigt - but he manages to stay not that far away by drafting. You mess up your bracing point a bit because of the higher speed. He is close again!

Then just after the last turn he now presses the button an can catch you on start finish line - you can´t press the button now, because you only can press it once in 30 sec.

But just after the chikane you can press it again and and he can´t.

On the other hand... have you counted? You pressed the button twice - the other guy only once. Would be interesting how often you are able to press it any more at the end of the race...

Good possibilities to overtake - or to make mistakes and some tactics too..

GREAT! :thumb:

[pipa]

As mentioned quite often now, that P2P button was mainly introduced to entertain the masses. I personally hate to watch a race with such a feature, since i prefer to watch overtake attempts that are based on skill and not just more power to go side to side on the straight.

In real life i can see why they did it, but on here i can not.

+1 for the oval...

Judging from the stats of yours, you probably haven't driven much on the Oval.
Especially on oval tracks it is pointless to have such a button, since drafting has almost the same effect and gives players plenty of opportunities to overtake. Drafting is also more difficult and fun, than a simple P2P button.

[JustForFunRacing]

Indeed oval racing is no racing and no fun for me.

But with the "+1" I meant that indeed there is no need for a P2P at oval courses.

[zeugnimod]

But imagine that button in a UFR / XFR... at BL1:

You just passed someone before T1. Then you press the button to get rid of him on the long straigt - but he manages to stay not that far away by drafting. You mess up your bracing point a bit because of the higher speed. He is close again!

Then just after the last turn he now presses the button an can catch you on start finish line - you can´t press the button now, because you only can press it once in 30 sec.

But just after the chikane you can press it again and and he can´t.

On the other hand... have you counted? You pressed the button twice - the other guy only once. Would be interesting how often you are able to press it any more at the end of the race...

Good possibilities to overtake - or to make mistakes and some tactics too..

GREAT! :thumb:

Imagine if the guy behind passes you on the backstraight and you drive the rest of the lap side by side.

Wouldn't have been possible with that ridiculous button.

GREAT! :thumb:

Sorry but -1. :D

[TehPaws3D]

Hmm.. Whats this button do..? *XFG shoots to 120 MPH* Okay.. I'll just hold this down then.. *Proceeded to hold button down, Passing all cars in a trail of orange fumes*

(Chat after race)
"ZOGMOZMGOM LOLOLOLOL NUUUB U ARNT SUPPOSE TO HOLD THE BUTTON DOWN"
"But it's so flashy..."
*Everyone holds it down*

And um.. What about the hackers? Couldn't they just work out glitches with this? -10

[evilpimp]

The problem imo with the push to pass button is that it creates as many overtakes as it prevents. Someone pulls out to pass you, you press the magic button and he's left out of your draft and far away...

P.S : I didn't read the whole thread, just like the last post and title :D

[fatalunfair]

Wouldn't his help crashers..? Imagine you are like 100m ahead of a crasher and suddenly on the braking he's coming at 280kmh through you.

[TehPaws3D]

i prefer to watch overtake attempts that are based on skill and not just more power to go side to side on the straight.

Drafting is also more difficult and fun, than a simple P2P button.

He really couldn't have said it better himself, This would take out atleast 50% of peoples hard work (Setups, Tuning, Endless testing) To have some guy that joined half a hour ago, Be able to push a button and fly.. Sounds a lot like.. :x (Nitrous oxide) But moving on, If this does get enabled, Which i can kinda see working on some of the city tracks LFS has.. But the wide open ones it would just fail horridly

I'll be following this thread, Cause if someone gets a nifty idea.. >;D

[Lible]

This would be very interesting if only implemented for one car/class. While it would decrease really close racing, it would definitely increase the amount of passes. But it would definitely be interesting in small amounts.

[Dygear]

The option would be nice. Implement if you want it or just leave it off.

[Luke.S]

do it like KERS in F1 where they have a limited amount of time and it is refilled each lap.

[UnknownMaster21]

in LFS it is called a LFSTweak

[der butz]

In my opinion p2p does not make racing more interesting or strategic, safer, faster or anything else.

Push to pass is a tool to enable stupid drivers to pass someone at least once in a race.

greetz

der butz

[Luke.S]

p2p could be optional and if you use pick it then it adds enough weight to your car to keep it pretty balanced.

[asscrack]

the button doesnt stay for the whole lap u can only press it once to pass thats why its called push to pass i think its a great idea tho cuz kimi won spa and wwithout kers he would have came 2nd or 3rd
+1 !!!! make it +2

[The Very End]

Why limit the car in first place? Alltho it's a tactical thing, I don't think it should be implented in LFS. I rather be "maxed out" all the time, and win because I drove best and not because I used my 60 seconds well. Also I think the boost servers no good in online racing, would just create more madness I think :razz: