What to do in these situations?

[Hyperactive]

I have some questions about what to do in these situations:

1. You spin (or accident happens, maybe not your fault) and your car is in the middle of the track.
go directly to the pits or stay and wait to let everyone pass?

While the pitting is better to avoid crashes the waiting in the middle of the track is more realistic.

2. Someone is trying to pass you inside in a corner. He is beside you but about 3/4 cars behind you. As the corner approaches you're still ahead of him that much. According to CRC rules, you have the right to turn in the corner and the other one should leave you the space and back off. In reality if you do turn in -it's a crash.

so to have crash free races you just have to leave the space for the car trying to pass you inside? Think the chicane in aston, for example.

3. You hit someone and it is your fault. You wait and let him pass you.
Can you pass him after few corners if you're faster or is there a genteleman rule to drive behind him for some time? More than just waiting him to have clean tires and racing speed?

4. You are driving in an fzr behind an fxr. After a long straight you notice that the fxr has made few mistakes and you could pass him in the next corner. The thing is that he probably doesn't know that you're that close and therefore he is not expecting any kind passing attempts from you. So when you suddenly appear next to him, he may just run into you because he didn't think you might catch him. He may see you, but he may not.

We are not talking about desperate passing attempts. There is the chance, use it?

5. You are driving after someone else. You are one lap behind him. BUT he is 6th and you are 7th, so basically you are fighting for the 6th place.

Pass him?


I think these are the common situations causing accidents offline plus the ingnoring of the blue flag.

[ColeusRattus]

I have some questions about what to do in these situations:

1. You spin (or accident happens, maybe not your fault) and your car is in the middle of the track.
go directly to the pits or stay and wait to let everyone pass?

While the pitting is better to avoid crashes the waiting in the middle of the track is more realistic.

Depends on he situation:
When I just spin in an ordinary racing situation, and I have the possibility to get back and still compete, I stay.

When I spin and my car is too badly damaged to race on properly, I pit ASAP.

2. Someone is trying to pass you inside in a corner. He is beside you but about 3/4 cars behind you. As the corner approaches you're still ahead of him that much. According to CRC rules, you have the right to turn in the corner and the other one should leave you the space and back off. In reality if you do turn in -it's a crash.

so to have crash free races you just have to leave the space for the car trying to pass you inside? Think the chicane in aston, for example.

I leave place. Usually, he will spin you off the track while he himself remains driving. So it is better to let him pass, and then attack again, if you are fast enough.

3. You hit someone and it is your fault. You wait and let him pass you.
Can you pass him after few corners if you're faster or is there a genteleman rule to drive behind him for some time? More than just waiting him to have clean tires and racing speed?

Depends... If I crash him out when it was easyly avoidable, I let him pass me again. But after we both take our speeds again, there is no mercy ;)

But if I crashd him out because of some other reason as me just paying not enough attention, I just keep on racing. (eg someone pushes me into that car, or a situation similar to the one in question 2)

4. You are driving in an fzr behind an fxr. After a long straight you notice that the fxr has made few mistakes and you could pass him in the next corner. The thing is that he probably doesn't know that you're that close and therefore he is not expecting any kind passing attempts from you. So when you suddenly appear next to him, he may just run into you because he didn't think you might catch him. He may see you, but he may not.

We are not talking about desperate passing attempts. There is the chance, use it?

That cannot be answered easyly. Depends on the track, the other driver and the speed difference. General rule: take as little risk as possible to give all a good race.

5. You are driving after someone else. You are one lap behind him. BUT he is 6th and you are 7th, so basically you are fighting for the 6th place.

Pass him?


Sure. If he is slow, why not pass? "Unlapping" is just the same as overtaking.

EDIT: Messed formating, so one answer was quite well hidden ;)

[AndyC]

A few good points, but not always the right ones. Like ColeusRattus said before with the spinning, it depends on the situation i normally try to pull off the racing line and start regaining speed.

. Someone is trying to pass you inside in a corner. He is beside you but about 3/4 cars behind you. As the corner approaches you're still ahead of him that much. According to CRC rules, you have the right to turn in the corner and the other one should leave you the space and back off. In reality if you do turn in -it's a crash.

With this one I would only turn in with people i turust and have raced before so i know how they drive. In anyother situation its likely to end in disaster to be honest but like you said, you do have the right to turn in (in most situations)

Andy.

[Hyperactive]

ColeusRattus, to 4th question:
That cannot be answered easyly. Depends on the track, the other driver and the speed difference. General rule: take as little risk as possible to give all a good race.


Well, let's say the track is as3, the difference between you two is 4 seconds at the short left-right section before the long backstraight. The fxr in front of you makes some easy error (puts wheels on grass and has to slow down to gain control...). So you catch him and the speed difference is like 40kph (so you're a lot faster). You use spistreaimng to gain even more speed.

In the uphill just before the turn to right you get side by side. As the fxr driver hears your car's sound and notices you it is already too late if he has started turning in the corner.

So there is a risk. But it is all about if the other one is awake and notices you soon enough.

[TRM.13]

Sure. If he is slow, why not pass? "Unlapping" is just the same as overtaking

I dont think so, unlapping is only possible if you are really faster than your "lapper" and only if lapper dont loose time with your "overtaking"

[StewartFisher]

1. You spin (or accident happens, maybe not your fault) and your car is in the middle of the track.
go directly to the pits or stay and wait to let everyone pass?

While the pitting is better to avoid crashes the waiting in the middle of the track is more realistic.
Obviously sitting on the track is more realistic but why risk ruining someone else's race? People go online to enjoy a nice race, not to practice their vehicle avoidance skills. If I'm on the oval I'll pit as soon as I can after making an attempt to recover the slide/spin.
If I end up on the racing line on a normal track and there are cars near me then I'll pit, otherwise I'll try to get off the line and recover.

2. Someone is trying to pass you inside in a corner. He is beside you but about 3/4 cars behind you. As the corner approaches you're still ahead of him that much. According to CRC rules, you have the right to turn in the corner and the other one should leave you the space and back off. In reality if you do turn in -it's a crash.

so to have crash free races you just have to leave the space for the car trying to pass you inside? Think the chicane in aston, for example.
I'll try to give him room even if that means letting him past. If he's quicker than you he'll pass anyway. If you're quicker than him then you'll get back past soon enough.

3. You hit someone and it is your fault. You wait and let him pass you.
Can you pass him after few corners if you're faster or is there a genteleman rule to drive behind him for some time? More than just waiting him to have clean tires and racing speed?
Once you're both back on track it's race on.

4. You are driving in an fzr behind an fxr. After a long straight you notice that the fxr has made few mistakes and you could pass him in the next corner. The thing is that he probably doesn't know that you're that close and therefore he is not expecting any kind passing attempts from you. So when you suddenly appear next to him, he may just run into you because he didn't think you might catch him. He may see you, but he may not.

We are not talking about desperate passing attempts. There is the chance, use it?
As the others said, it depends. In your specific example, driving an FZR you might not have much of a chance in a braking area against an FXR so I'd be cautious about trying anything. I'd probably pull out from behind him and brake as normal and hope that seeing me in his mirrors forces him into another error.

5. You are driving after someone else. You are one lap behind him. BUT he is 6th and you are 7th, so basically you are fighting for the 6th place.

Pass him?
Definately. If I'm faster then I'm going to try to pass, even if I'm a lap behind. I would make sure it was clean though, if there was a small chance of hitting him I'd leave it for later. Some exceptions though...if the guy ahead is in a close battle for position then I wouldn't get mixed up in it.

[AndroidXP]

As for crashing: my personal favourite is when people just stay absolutely still until the field passed them. I'm just really really satisfied when I managed to maneuver through a pileup of 5+ cars without even touching one :D

What I absolutely hate is people trying to immediately continue the race or to (even if there are good intentions behind it) get out of the track. Their movements are simply unpredictable and it generally leads to more crashing.

Another thing similar to that ^ is blue flagged people letting me pass. It's nice and all, and very helpful in a corner, but please, if I'm already in your slipstream on the straight, don't change your line, don't try to "avoid" me, whatever. It's much easier for me to pass if you stick to your line (which I can predict).
So, on the straight: stay still. In the corner: run wide, or take a clear line. Thanks :thumb:

[mrodgers]

Yea, if you spin and there is a pile of cars coming behind you, just stay still and not try to recover until others are clear. If I'm in a public 5 lapper or something short, I'll just shift-s to the pits and take myself out of the race. Another one will start shortly. In a league race, I'll just sit even if I'm facing oncoming traffic until everyone is cleared and I have space to recover. Then I'll accellerate off the line to race speed incase others not so close catch up before I'm up to speed.

[ajp71]

2. Someone is trying to pass you inside in a corner. He is beside you but about 3/4 cars behind you. As the corner approaches you're still ahead of him that much. According to CRC rules, you have the right to turn in the corner and the other one should leave you the space and back off. In reality if you do turn in -it's a crash.


You shouldn't have left the door open in the first place.

[Vain]

Your follower can always take the short-way into the corner. That way he will either hit you or come out in front of you. Definatly no clean racing, but many seem to think of this as a valid way to take someone over...

Vain

[[RCG]Boosted]

when im faster than that car in front of me i8 try to pass him , but when i cant pass him completely i brake earlier. mostly when u still try to pass, both will have a bad accident. not good for both. so let him go 1 or more turns and pass him on a safer way.

[ayrton senna 87]

2. Someone is trying to pass you inside in a corner. He is beside you but about 3/4 cars behind you. As the corner approaches you're still ahead of him that much. According to CRC rules, you have the right to turn in the corner and the other one should leave you the space and back off. In reality if you do turn in -it's a crash.

this happened to me in real life, i was up the inside of someone going into the first corner at about 70, but they didnt see me, but it was my line so i carried on. needless to say we crashed, i almost rolled and caused loads of damage to my kart, and took him out aswell (which was good). so if u are in a situation where it is legally your line but you might crash, best to back off!!!

theres a funny story attached to this but i wont bother :p

[Gunn]

1. If you telepitted during a race on my server you would be kicked. The correct thing to do is wait until it is safe to proceed, let the cars go past before righting yourself and continuing.

2. In the situation you describe it sounds like you already have the corner, he should back off. Different race series and classes have different rules. Getting your car up beside the opponent one millisecond before he reaches the clipping point is not the same as being beside him before he corners. Here is an example of a real life driver's code of conduct rule:
It is the responsibility of the car performing an overtaking manoeuvre to do so in a safe manner, do not expect the car in front to give way if you are only part way past.

3. Yes. Catch him and pass him, it's a race what else can you really do?

4. If you have a clear chance to overtake safely then do it. If it is going to be tight, leave him room. You shouldn't force him off the track. If you have performed your overtaking in a sensible place and time he should not run into you. Squeezing into a gap at the last millisecond leaving him nowhere to go but into the wall is bad racing.

5. If you are faster, pass him. If you can unlap yourself, do it. This is the one situation where the computer-generated blue flag will be improper. It happens sometimes in real life too. But cars get damaged, tyres wear out, people slow down. You should be fighting for the best result you can and trying to finish on the same lap as the winner. Cleanly of course.


Choose your time and place to overtake and be aware of the other cars around you. If you aren't sure that you can make a move stick, don't do it. Even if you are faster than the car in front, choose your time and place to attack, don't think that just because you caught him easily that you should pass him then and there. If two cars try to enter a corner or chicane together they should try to leave a little room for each other. Some great battles can be fought in corners or tricky sections, be aware of each other's position and you both finish the race.

[Hoellsen]

Personally I consider the CRC-rule wrong, except the overlap is only like 1/10 of a car. Anytime the cars overlap more than fender to fender, I feel noone has the right to the corner and both sides should leave enough room for each other to drive through the corner 2wide.

There are no general rules for situations like that. In a turn like Blackwood T1 you can easily go 2wide, even 3wide, if all know what they do. In a chicane like Kyoto T1, the situation looks a bit different. It's all about thinking for yourself and the other, paying respect to the other driver and generally knowing what to do on a track.

[lucky]

Personally I consider the CRC-rule wrong, except the overlap is only like 1/10 of a car. Anytime the cars overlap more than fender to fender, I feel noone has the right to the corner and both sides should leave enough room for each other to drive through the corner 2wide.

Exactly (and the FIA rule, which is similar, is also wrong). This is the only way to ensure interesting racing without incidents. If there's only a possibility that there's someone besides you (even only by few milimetres) you should leave him exatcly 1 car width room (or more, of course). If I'm not sure if the guy behind me is still behind or strating to go inside, I leave room. And I expect the same. If you don't leave room, there's gonna be a crash.
I used to do that IRL racing too, and usually I was the one coming out in front ...

[colcob]

The difficulty is that in most types of racing car, its extremely difficult to actually know that someone has a 1/10th overlap on you. So the rule is designed to make it the other guys responsibility until such times as you would reasonably be expected to know they had an overlap, ie. third to two thirds up.

But I definitely agree that if I DO know that someone has, or might have, some overlap, I alway leave a bit of room, because the last thing you want is a tap in your hind quarters on turn-in, as thats guaranteed spin-out.

[Slartibartfast]

1. You spin (or accident happens, maybe not your fault) and your car is in the middle of the track. go directly to the pits or stay and wait to let everyone pass?I have a tendancy to sit until it's obviously clear. But... last night for instance, I looped it coming out of the chicken at SO Classic. I was ahead just enough that I couldn't get the car around before everyone got there but certainly had time to telepit. I stayed thinking I was sufficiently off the track - nose against the armco on the left. POW! Bad choice. Due to visiblilty, even if they had room, they didn't have time to plan. Fortunately everyone was really nice and we had many good races. (Thanks!)

That being said, I think it's a matter of where. Certainly use radar, mirrors, and lefty/righty looking before moving. Some places are better than others, and we *are* in fake life, we *can* teleport... no sense sitting where there is a guaranteed pile up.

2. Someone is trying to pass you inside in a corner. He is beside you but about 3/4 cars behind you. so to have crash free races you just have to leave the space for the car trying to pass you inside? Think the chicane in aston, for example.I use that move all the time. I'm the guy trying to pass. I do not. Only if my nose is ahead of yours at turn in will I stay to make the move. But when it's the other guy, if I don't know him, I will give a lane or back out completely and let him run off or have the position. I can either get it back later or not. That's racing. To have crash free races, yes, give way. It's called dicing and it's a mindset. The more you know the people you are dicing with, the more you won't give way in that situation. With everyone in the same mindset, you competitor knows it's not enough to take the corner, and you turn in on your intended line and she backs off. That's the fun.

There is another saying in racing, "Passing is the craft of forcing the other driver to take a line they did not intend." Being a nutjob that people fear being T-Boned by is nothing more than petty bullying. It is disgraceful. Having my front wheels next to yours at the braking point and forcing you to realize you can't turn when you wanted to is legit. It's clean, it's obvious to you, it can be effective.

The chicken at Aston? I can't say no absolutely, but I have yet to see a situation that warrants a pass attempt at that corner. Not when both cars are on track at speed. I can't imagine how it would work.

3. You hit someone and it is your fault. You wait and let him pass you. I have a tendancy to wait until we're both up to speed. He didn't ask for dirty tires and if he sees me hounding and get's too excited and spins, then I've just caused more grief.

If it's a points race, I'm gone as soon as I can get going. With or without the other guy. I'll let the clerk of the course deal with the legality. And hope it was a legitimate mistake when I go to face the other driver after the race.

4. You are driving in an fzr behind an fxr. So when you suddenly appear next to him, he may just run into you because he didn't think you might catch him. He may see you, but he may not.There are ways you know when the driver ahead is absorbed with the task at hand, or more aware of his surroundings. If there's a question in my mind, I'll make myself visible with a few feints before making a move. Sometimes, the other driver needs a little time to settle down after being startled into the realization they are sharing the track. I watch for that too.


5. You are driving after someone else. You are one lap behind him. BUT he is 6th and you are 7th, so basically you are fighting for the 6th place. Pass him? I was just about to say, "Of course!" but the situation where he is dicing for 5th is very interesting. In a GP, yes. No question. I may be able to make up that lap. And he'll make up any time I cost his battle. If there's no chance to make the lap other than them taking each other out of the race, I'll be happy to practice patience.

My attitude has cost me a few races, but I'm cool with that.

I think these are the common situations causing accidents offline plus the ingnoring of the blue flag.Yes, and I think situations 2 through 5 are more frequent than they would be if there were no restarts. #1 as well, on a more personal level.

[BigShox]

In general I think most situations can be covered by 'show a little respect for your fellow racers'. Instead of just going all out to get the guy in front no matter what, think about how you expect the racers around you to treat you.

On the servers where I've had lots of really great races (unfortunately mainly in S1 - it seems mutual 'respect' is a little thin in S2 these days), most of the racers 'knew' each other in the sense that a lot of us came into contact regularly on the same servers and so could predict and trust each other. There was close racing, good fun and very few of the dumb moves that go on recently.
I think mainly it's down to S2 gaining a lot of new racers, and needing to settle down a bit - find it's rythm. I hardly race at all these days because of just not being able to get a decent race.

[Hyperactive]

I agree with the comments made about the #2 case. But then I've seen some league races, where "the rule of passing" is very well obeyed. And to say, if I would do some of these maneuvers in random online races, I would get killed, for real :). In many cases there have been a battle for many laps, the other trying to get enough speed to pass, but the other driving very well as well.

I understand that short races are the reason why people make hazard passing attempts, but are people really aware of the "passing rule"? I mean, I've hardly never seen anyone giving me room for taking the inner line trough a corner, if i'm some much ahead. Just watch any replay you've got from a random online race at aston3, with the GTR cars and check the fast corners before the back straight. There is always people hitting each others, because the other one didn't give the space or drove little optimistically.

If the other one is even a little next to me, I must leave the room. And this is ok to me and reasonable as well.

But then there's this one thing I've seen some times too. The passing player (let's imagine that they both are exactly side by side, with some room between them) inside moves outside a bit just so there is just inches to the other player to get a better line to the next corner. Of course this can be considered as a tactic as well, but I find it annoying that when I give some space to the passing player, even if I didn't have to, he the takes all the space there is. And if he runs even a bit wide, I'm on the grass...

Btw., does the passing rule also include a case where the passing player is trying to pass using an outside line in the corner? I give an example again:

6. The player is slower than you at the moment (you are "the passer"...). As you have more speed and you are better in braking, you could use the space the other one has left to the outside. When you are about 3/4 side by side (he still little ahead) he decides to move little outwards to get a better line out of the corner. Does he have the right to that corner? Again, according to the CRC rules, the player attempting a pass outside must be very careful when trying that. This a bit similar to the situation described above.

Or am I just creating situations that happen every 100 years :)

[mrodgers]

1. If you telepitted during a race on my server you would be kicked. The correct thing to do is wait until it is safe to proceed, let the cars go past before righting yourself and continuing.

I hope here you mean you will be kicked from the race and not the server. In public races where the laps are usually short, it is better just to take yourself out of the race rather than ruining it for several others behind you by sitting in the track. It's no big deal to me to teleport back to the pits when in another 5 minutes a new race will start. Even if I can't rejoin and run some practice laps behind the other racers, I'll just enjoy spectating the lead cars for the remainder of the race. I've seen some better action doing this than watching some real racing on TV.

Personally I consider the CRC-rule wrong, except the overlap is only like 1/10 of a car. Anytime the cars overlap more than fender to fender, I feel noone has the right to the corner and both sides should leave enough room for each other to drive through the corner 2wide.
I think one of the following rules in CRC states that in a corner you leave room inside or outside for another racer. That would take care of this. The overlap rule only states that the car with overlap has the right to the racing line in the corner. They do not have the right to the full racing line coming off the corner as the car being passed could still be there causing the passing car to allow room on exit.

[Slartibartfast]

But then there's this one thing I've seen some times too. The passing player (let's imagine that they both are exactly side by side, with some room between them) inside moves outside a bit just so there is just inches to the other player to get a better line to the next corner. Of course this can be considered as a tactic as well, but I find it annoying that when I give some space to the passing player, even if I didn't have to, he the takes all the space there is. And if he runs even a bit wide, I'm on the grass...I hate this one. I look in the mirror, can tell the guys is going to over commit to an overly bold move, so I give room to go side by side and the ass pushes me off track at exit. These clowns think they're passing, I'm sure of it. The end result is a position, so they believe they are great racers. It an unfortunate result of not actually having any ruling body. That's why these discussions and organizations like CRC are so important to this sport.

6. The player is slower than you at the moment (you are "the passer"...). As you have more speed and you are better in braking, you could use the space the other one has left to the outside. When you are about 3/4 side by side (he still little ahead) he decides to move little outwards to get a better line out of the corner. Does he have the right to that corner? Again, according to the CRC rules, the player attempting a pass outside must be very careful when trying that. This a bit similar to the situation described above. My personal opinion is that an outside pass is rather unconventional. That being the case, it is the outside passers responsibility to avoid incedent at all costs. Sometimes, it has to be done though. With care.

In the end, although it will be fairly costly, three monitors will be the best dang thing to hit online racing. For me, anyway.

[-wes-]

No one has the 'right' to the racing line or track.
No one can force another off the track or cause them to spin.

adding any more rules to this and you end up with follow the leader. and "oh would you let me past please? OH go on, ooo your mean! please?!!!"


When you go off line to pass someone, you automaticly have less control than the other car. Expecting them to be able to abort the pass is folly.

If your on the inside of me I will give your 1 car's width at the apex, but I might pinch you down at the exit. I might give you as much room as possible at the exit, but never expect it.

When you on the outside I will give you 1 car's width at the exit, you can pinch me down. And I'll do my best not to hit you, but don't assume we won't make contact.

Driver's who expect to have the racing line(or anything while racing) will end up out of the race hammering the votekick button.

I see this as being fair without being overly restrictive.

[Gunn]

I hope here you mean you will be kicked from the race and not the server.Kicked from the server. Our server has a set of rules and one of them includes no telepitting during a race. Apart from causing lag and causing distractions it is unrealistic. The yellow flag is there to warn racers of an incident ahead and all of our racers know the correct way to re-enter the race without causing mayhem. Spins happen in real racing, cars get beached or wrecked on or near the racing line and it is up to all the drivers to behave appropriately. So on our server telepitting is banned during a race, you need to rejoin under your own steam or else retire. The only time we allow "magic" teleportaion is if your car is ruined and you are out of the race you can go to spectate mode.
Rules like this work very well indeed if all of your racers have the same attitude. Nobody minds terribly much coming across a stranded car in the middle of their favourite section even if it ruins their current battle. That's a part of motor racing and something we should be willing to deal with in Live For Speed. Magically removing a perfectly drivable car from the track just so the approaching rivals can have a clean chicane removes also the excitement and danger of racing.

On a public server I find often that people have the same mentality towards the race as they do in any other online gaming: Get a good result, a good score. Our desire to prove ourselves worthy in the company of strangers is strong, so we try to be the winner even if it is risky to do so. Once in the company of friends or team mates we strive to prove ourselves worthy too, but this time we want to be seen as good racers, the result of the race is not so important anymore. This is a very satisfying experience to have and creates awesome racing, I'm sure many serious racers here would agree.
-----

Looking at the "who owns the corner" situation there are different rules around for different classes. The main problem with distance-based rules like the door pillar rule or any rules that may state something like "if a car is X distance past his opponent then he has right of way to the racing line", is that it may take the tiniest fraction of a second for a car to close that gap. You couldn't blame the leading driver for turning in even if his opponent was into the gap, but according to the rules you would have to blame him. If an incident occurs you then have officials with video replays and tape-measures trying to see who was at fault according to the rules. A more open approach like the one I posted earlier: "It is the responsibility of the car performing an overtaking manoeuvre to do so in a safe manner, do not expect the car in front to give way if you are only part way past" is easier to interpret and officiate and is easier to understand for the driver. It basically suggests that close racing is encouraged, but you can't just stick your nose into a space at the last instant and expect everything to go your way.

[Batterypark]

1. If you telepitted during a race on my server you would be kicked.

What is your server called then? I just want to make sure I'll never accidentally join.

[Misko]

What is your sever called? I want to join. :)

[StanleyCarter]

What is your server called then? I just want to make sure I'll never accidentally join.

don't worry, it's private.

[xapexcivicx]

Mighty fun server. They aim for realism. And I'm almost positive in real life you don't magically jump from the track to the pit lane.

[Hoellsen]

The difficulty is that in most types of racing car, its extremely difficult to actually know that someone has a 1/10th overlap on you. So the rule is designed to make it the other guys responsibility until such times as you would reasonably be expected to know they had an overlap, ie. third to two thirds up.

How about: if in doubt, leave room? It would be the equivalent to "if in doubt, don't". I do it simply due to self-protection: I might lose a position, but especially early in a league race, it is not worth risking a lengthy pitstop or even a DNF because you want to defend a position. In the last two or three laps of course this would look a little different, but even then: The points for a position lower are more than no points at all.

[lucky]

No one has the 'right' to the racing line or track.
No one can force another off the track or cause them to spin.

adding any more rules to this and you end up with follow the leader. and "oh would you let me past please? OH go on, ooo your mean! please?!!!"


When you go off line to pass someone, you automaticly have less control than the other car. Expecting them to be able to abort the pass is folly.

If your on the inside of me I will give your 1 car's width at the apex, but I might pinch you down at the exit. I might give you as much room as possible at the exit, but never expect it.

When you on the outside I will give you 1 car's width at the exit, you can pinch me down. And I'll do my best not to hit you, but don't assume we won't make contact.

Driver's who expect to have the racing line(or anything while racing) will end up out of the race hammering the votekick button.

I see this as being fair without being overly restrictive.
That's exactly how I would put it (when racing with friends on our private server we always keep to these rules) - and it provides for great racing. I can remember gonig several laps side to side, overtakong and being overtaken. That's racing, not overly controlled follow the leader stuff.
And I'm absolutelly agains any blocking moves on the straight. Not a single line change in/right before braking zone ...

[AndroidXP]

:really: Of course I'm going to "close the door" right before the braking zone if I know you're one of those suicide squeeze-in-corner drivers. Just because we add more responsibility to the one being passed doesn't mean he hasn't got the right to fight for his position. But I agree on the straight thing, weaving left and right is a big no-no there.

[Sunday Driver]

Well I'm still a newbe, but it was very interesting to follow this discussion and I hope I learnt some proper behavior. In particular trying to let someone a car width room, if he tried to force you to slow down before a corner, seems to be very sensible.

My experience with good racing simulations is almost constraint to the multiplayer demo of LfS for 4-7 round races. So I have some questions, too.

If I'm racing with the same guys for several races and there is somone who is about 2 seconds faster than me per lap, shall I let him pass, or give him a fight for the position? Guys who are much faster than me can overtake me inside 2-3 corners without problems. If they have the patience and don't kick me out the 1st corner, claiming me of braking too early. I don't complain much about such things, instead of this I try to change the set-up in order to brake later, if that happens to me several times in the same corner. Nevertheless I find it unnescessary and dishonorable for the better driver.

But if someone is only a little bit faster, there is not much he can do, as long as I make no major mistakes. Sure it could lead into a crash, if he tries to force me to slow down before a corner, but, hey that's racing! Or is it a wrong attitude?

Nevertheless in the beginning or middle of a long run race I would properbly pass him without much resitance, because it makes no sense to ruin the lap times of both drivers, giving other players the chance to hang on.

[ColeusRattus]

My experience with good racing simulations is almost constraint to the multiplayer demo of LfS for 4-7 round races. So I have some questions, too.

If I'm racing with the same guys for several races and there is somone who is about 2 seconds faster than me per lap, shall I let him pass, or give him a fight for the position?

Hard to answer. If he is that much faster that you, he will propably pass you anyways on a straight. So no need to give him the position as a gift. But still, you should not block him in an "unsportsmanlike" manner. If you see him coming fast into the turn, don't get into his line on the single purpose to slow him down. If you see him exiting the turn faster than you, no need to block him by getting into his way.

Guys who are much faster than me can overtake me inside 2-3 corners without problems. If they have the patience and don't kick me out the 1st corner, claiming me of braking too early. I don't complain much about such things, instead of this I try to change the set-up in order to brake later, if that happens to me several times in the same corner. Nevertheless I find it unnescessary and dishonorable for the better driver.

What to say about that. It happens, and it doesn't feel well. Still, try to remain calm and race on. Really nothing you can do about that, and crashing that guy out in revenge won't solve the issue.

But if someone is only a little bit faster, there is not much he can do, as long as I make no major mistakes. Sure it could lead into a crash, if he tries to force me to slow down before a corner, but, hey that's racing! Or is it a wrong attitude?

If you are about the same speed, no need to let him pass unchallenged. That's the true spice of online racing. Again, try to avoid bodywork contact, as it is regarded rude. At close races, victories achieved by psychological force are sweeter than those achieved by physical force.

Nevertheless in the beginning or middle of a long run race I would properbly pass him without much resitance, because it makes no sense to ruin the lap times of both drivers, giving other players the chance to hang on.

The longer the race, the more it pays off to drive cautiously and devensively. Try to get a good pace, but don't stress it. You won't succeed if you either spin every two laps because you stressed your limits or your tyres are just patches of black melting rubber at your wheels.
That's why there is no need to fight for a position too agressively. The ones who just pull a few hotlaps will be behind you in the end due to more driving mistakes and tyre-wear, and those who constantly are 2 secs faster than you will win anyways.

[Sunday Driver]

Ok, thank you.

[Gunn]

How about: if in doubt, leave room? It would be the equivalent to "if in doubt, don't". I do it simply due to self-protection: I might lose a position, but especially early in a league race, it is not worth risking a lengthy pitstop or even a DNF because you want to defend a position. In the last two or three laps of course this would look a little different, but even then: The points for a position lower are more than no points at all.Yes, self protection is important. Real drivers, despite even fierce rivalries usually maintain a "we're all in this together and we all want to finish in one piece" attitude. You will never see the final turn if you destroy your car at the first turn. But you shouldn't open the door for an opponent who is no position to attack, even if he thinks he is. Adversely, a driver should not attack where there is no room to complete the manouvre. If getting half way past the car in front means you are both going to crash, then it is obviously unwise to attempt your attack at that point. You shouldn't have to yield just because the other guy wants to try the impossible. When the other racers around you are also aware, like you are, of each car's position and race together cleanly all trying to finish in one piece then it is surprising how few incidents occur. Sure, contact and crashes still happen and some corners are hotly contested with mixed results, but overall the racing is fast, fair and furiously contested with little incident. This is why I will always encourage people to join or form a team or club, participate in a league or organised event or organise a serious race meeting for their peers. Do it at your own level or comfort zone with a light heart, an open mind, and a severe desire to perform well.

Even the best public servers are prone to people joining and leaving mid-race, chatting, voting, telepitting and often have very short races (3-10 laps). Many of the frustrating aspects people speak of occur for innocent reasons and are a product of a public racing environment. Some racers get frustrated when a race is unrealistically interrupted, others feel it's ok to join or vote while a race is already underway. If you want realistic racing with few distractions, hot qualifying sessions and serious opponents then a public server has its shortcomings. When an admin is present and conducting races in an orderly manner public servers can be fun and educational for any racer, for sure. But if you can gather a few bodies together for a private session with no distractions, a proper qualifying session and a decent length race, I believe Live For Speed really comes into its own and is nothing more, and nothing less than an Online Race Simulator. Bloody marvelous stuff it is too.

[colcob]

Absolutely. I only joined a team and started league racing after S2 came out, and it's a whole different world. Much more rewarding and challenging.

[mrodgers]

Ok Gunn, top notch responses there :thumb: . When I asked about the kick for teleporting to the pits, I was assuming public server and short pickup racing for fun. Private is a different matter. I have no problem with your responses here, my opinion is if you are on someone elses server, public or private, then you play by their rules, period. I now spend all my time in the NAL servers practicing for the next race there, but before I joined NAL, I would just run in the public 5-7 lap servers as I'm not on very long in the weeknights. I'd rather just "teleport" to the pits if I crash just to not ruin someone elses fun. I usually don't rejoin, but just watch the rest of the action on the track. If I do rejoin, I wait until the field has gone past before coming out on the track. And I said spin earlier, but say crash here. If I spin, I try to pull off as soon as I can before I try to recover and continue. If I crash with enough damage, I just pull myself from the race. Sending yourself to spectate as you say is probably better. Disabling the shift-s to pit gets rid of the rejoining mid-field and messing up other racers.

I was wondering then, what server is it? And why is it private? League or team? Or just a gathering of drivers that know each other? Just curious. When racing with those you know night after night, you learn what to expect from them rather than in public when you could be racing people you've never seen before every night. Much more enjoyable.

[Hyperactive]

If we compare LFS to real race driving, we notice some not so obvious points. These include the fact that in real life competitions we have drivers that are generally already fast people and make maybe less errors than we do in LFS. This, I think, is because in real life you have stay alive and keep your car in one piece. In LFS we don't need to worry about things like that.

And we don't see people racing who don't even know the track or the car. But the biggest difference is that in real life we have the judges who can see the situations and make the right decision about it (usually...). In LFS the judge is everybody.

When we combine these we get situations where other one is tens of seconds faster than other one, or people driving the track wihout knowing the next corner - learning the track online! - and people who think because they are faster they should be let pass immediatelly.

I saw an interesting situation couple of days ago when a faster driver passed me. The next one to pass was some slower driver some laps behind us. The faster driver decided to use the slower player's slipstream to get some more speed. The slower player used the brakes to let the faster one to make a safe pass... Had a lonely race after it... But I certainly think we need some kind of a basic LFS online rulebook - everyone should read it, maybe even include it to LFS!

[lucky]

:really: Of course I'm going to "close the door" right before the braking zone if I know you're one of those suicide squeeze-in-corner drivers. Just because we add more responsibility to the one being passed doesn't mean he hasn't got the right to fight for his position. But I agree on the straight thing, weaving left and right is a big no-no there.
I alway look at these things fro RL perspective, and in RL the racing depends on it's popularity. Less interesting,m less popular, less money, less racing ...
And if you want interesting races (for fans and drivers), they must have a lot of overtaking, side by side racing.
I don't know where you found "suicide squeeze-in-corner drivers", I never wrote about it. I just said that the main principle should be: if there is someone overlapping with you (or even if you think he could be overlaping with you, so when in doubt just live some room) you live him room - and that is on straight, on corner entry, on apex or at exit ... That's all it takes ...
And added bonus: if the guy overtaking is one of those "suicide squeeze-in-corner drivers" he'll just shoot by you and go off track (yes, I like them, I enjoy watchig that :D ) - and you will drive on, not end up with a crashed car off the track.
It's that easy ...

[Gunn]

And why is it private? League or team?Yes we have team servers that are private. Why? mostly for all the types of reasons discussed in topics like this. I like to race seriously (I now others aren't so serious, we are all different), and LFS is the first sim to really supply great online circuit racing, it is perfect for me. We try to race under realistic rules so we can experience the closest thing to real and clean racing possible in LFS. Having a nice simple structure like this serves to provide an orderly race environment. Nobody has to guess how to behave and what is acceptable, races are not interrupted by new people joining mid-way, we have a long qualifying session usually and the races are from 15-30 laps on most of the tracks. We save a replay of each race, any incidents can be looked at after the flag has fallen. Some small details need to be added yet but we are making good progress. We never see a wrecker and we DO include rookies regularly which is a big challenge for everyone concerned but rewarding to see the green racer improving.

I thoroughly enjoy this style of LFS. Restarts are rare (almost non-existant) and if one of us crashes on the first corner he doesn't ask for a restart, he picks himself up, cirulates back around to the pit and repairs his car. If you are doing 25 laps of Westhill there is plently of time to win (or lose!) the race. Strategic elements like tyre and fuel usage come into play and suddenly it is not good enough just to be the fastest anymore. With this type of LFS you always have the feeling that a race win is possible for you, even if you are trailing the field, even if you are not the fastest car on the track.

The real advantages of a private server are apparent, but of course you need enough racers to make it work. With the large number of racers out there, many of whom have lots of stories about race interruptions and other problems, I would imagine it wouldn't be too hard for many of you to gather together regularly in a private server and start your own serious race session.

You will need:
A server!
At least 4 racers (6 or more is better, especially on the longer tracks, but 4 will get you by).
A regular time slot (try to run your session weekly at the the same day and time to ensure a good level of participation).
A common understanding of what you want to achieve from the session.

I know of other teams and leagues that use realistic rules and guidelines and I bet they are having a similar experience to us. Public servers are often fun, often unpredictable. I prefer consistency and order and will rarely join a public server unless I know it is being managed by an online admin.

[budabudabass]

At close races, victories achieved by psychological force are sweeter than those achieved by physical force.
Oh that's sooo true. There's nothing more satisfying than sticking really close to someone's bumper (no contact of course) until they get scared into a mistake, allowing me to zoom past. It's the most fun type of overtaking I can think of.

[johnmcaulay]

I agree with you, it's something all should remember, because we can all end up having a massive crash and up getting lapped in the pits. The blue flag only means that you have to let the driver back in front if he/she closes on you and attempts to pass, you don't have to hold back and let them past regardless of whether they are faster.

[Doorman]

What is your server called then? I just want to make sure I'll never accidentally join.
What's the name of your server I'll try to make sure I do join. Great idea.