Demo Testing

[Gentlefoot]

I have been testing demos this weekend. I tested rFactor, GT Legends and netKarPro.

It has made me realise how good the FF and physics are in LFS. GT Legends was the best of the three IMO. The graphics were nice but what really made it for me was the sound. It was excellent.

rFactor I had problems with the FF. It seemed to work in reverse with some kind of wierd 'anti centering' pushing the wheel away from the centre instead of vice-versa. I checked all the settings but couldn't see anything so gave up on this pretty quickly.

NetKarPro just had no FF feel at all. Graphics weren't up to much either.

What we need is the sound and graphics of GTL and the physics of LFS and we'd have a great game.

Anyone played any other demos I should try?

[Vain]

You could do the GTR/GTR2/Race-demo-tour after you already checked GTL. Other content, same game.

I have the full version of GTL, and I'd say that the FFB is horrible. It feels remotely connected to what a car feels like, but on some cars it just completely fails, like the 911. Propably because of the weight distribution.
By the way I think that driving GTL is dangerous to your driving. In GTL it's a good strategy to pump the throttle to gain grip (the game thinks that there is weight transition and adds grip to the rear wheels).
It's a similar stupid thing as the diff in LFS. In LFS it's a good strategy to keep a few percent of throttle on to power-lock the diff, in real life you just decrease the possible lateral acceleration that way.

But the Nordschleife 1.0 of GTL is well done, which is why I have that game. I don't drive it in any powerful car though, because those are just too far off.

Vain

[AndroidXP]

I've tried nearly all the demos and still the only other sims I play are LFS and RBR. :shrug:That's my conclusion, too. Be it GTR, GTR2, GTL, rFactor, netKar, or whatever else, right now there's no real contender to our beloved two. I'd say netKar comes closest regarding driving physics and feel, but the rest of the sim is about as appealing as a pile of dog excrements.

No idea regarding N2003, because I have no interest in NASCAR whatsoever, and GPL is a big "?" too, as the demo was/is kinda buggy on my machine (crashes + weird speedup/slowdown all of a sudden - probably related to the dynamic CPU stepping of Cool 'n Quiet) and in the time it worked it didn't feel very impressive to me.

Let's see what the future brings - good ones seem to be DR, iRacing and maybe netKar if it ever gets above version 0.000001 before Kunos has a nervous breakdown again. Other than these, no idea...

[Don]

odyssey by car...? :shrug:

[Gentlefoot]

I couldn't get the GT Legends demo to work - StarForce decided I was doing something naughty and rebooted my computer, and if I'd had an address for anybody who'd worked on StarForce I would've been round there with a hockey mask and a bat. Shame, because that game looked interesting.



Try again mate. My mate and I both had the same problem and it's to do with processors with 64-bit capability. There is a fix you can download. Go here to get the SFUPDATE tool - http://www.star-force.com/protection/users/ to downlaod it. Well worth a try this demo and I will buy the full game even with it's shortcomings.

What is RBR btw?

[ekze]

in rF you have to set FF to -100% or something you want but with "-"

[Gentlefoot]

in rF you have to set FF to -100% or something you want but with "-"

aah - OK I'll try that tonight.

[AndroidXP]

What is RBR btw?
Richard Burns Rally. Do yourself a favour, go here (http://www.play.com/Games/PC/RCS/3-/1112357/Richard_Burns_Rally/Product.html) and spend a fiver on it. Shipping is free.
I would've said "burn the witch", but this is an acceptable answer, too :D

[Dajmin]

Must...resist...buying...

[Shotglass]

your better off if you dont bother with the isi sims at all they just feel off in every aspect

so the only sims of interest are:
gpl and nr2k3 with the gtp mod both of which a pretty good but you can tell their age in every second
rbr great sim but i just suck a rallying so i never really bothered
nkp solid physics and good ffb (minus the badly done effects like understeer) but god awefull sopport and coding
and finally dr which is every bit as good as rbr but feels a lot like its not there yet much like nkp and lfs s1 ... obviously thats forgiveable since its still in ealy alpha stage

[Dajmin]

It's a fiver. I know you're Scottish but c'mon, it's a fiver!
Cheeky swine :p
It's not the money that's the issue here, it's the fact that I don't have time to play the games I already have :)

/slaps hand away from "Buy Now" button.

And back on topic.

If we're ignoring "pure" sims for the moment (and obviously nobody minds Starf*rce all that much) I still enjoy TOCA3 as an arcade job. Even with all the driving aids off and all the sim options on, it retains that arcade feel. Full damage modelling and a zillion different cars and styles to choose from.

[Gentlefoot]

Can anyone tell me whether it's worth me buying GTR2 without seeing the demo. If the graphics and sound are as good as GT Legends then I'll get a copy.

[AndroidXP]

Why don't you simply try the demo? :really:

For me, as I get my enjoyment purely from the realistic physics and FF, GTR2 would be a waste of money. But it's only like 20$, so it wouldn't be much wasted money...

[p1u]

Can anyone tell me whether it's worth me buying GTR2 without seeing the demo. If the graphics and sound are as good as GT Legends then I'll get a copy.

I suggest you to buy the new WTCC RACE game.
http://www.race-game.org/

[tristancliffe]

No, don't buy race. It's like all of the other ISI sims, but with any good bits extracted and thrown away.

If you HAVE to get a new sim, at least get GTR2, throw away the default slip curves, ignore the 'realistic replacements', and ask our Axus or Todd to make you some decent ones.

If you HAVE to get a new sim, and are prepared to gamble A LOT with your money, then nKP is still the closest driving experience to LFS. In a year or two (or more) of continued non-hard work by Stefano and his band of lazy beta-testers it could well be a half-decent simulator. As I say, it's a gamble, but right now it's no worse that GTR2 either on or offline.

Don't bother with rFactor - they but most of the game available for purchase, but forgot the physics engine. At the last minute the cleaning woman had to hack together one for it, and sell it as it was.

[Dajmin]

Does GTR2 use Starforce copy protection? I thought about getting it myself, but the thought of adding another SF app on my system fills me with hate :)

[Jakg]

not in GTR2 - but GTR1 does!

[Dajmin]

Thank the gods for that. Maybe I'll look into getting a copy then :)

[dawesdust_12]

You could do the GTR/GTR2/Race-demo-tour after you already checked GTL. Other content, same game.

I have the full version of GTL, and I'd say that the FFB is horrible. It feels remotely connected to what a car feels like, but on some cars it just completely fails, like the 911. Propably because of the weight distribution.
By the way I think that driving GTL is dangerous to your driving. In GTL it's a good strategy to pump the throttle to gain grip (the game thinks that there is weight transition and adds grip to the rear wheels).
It's a similar stupid thing as the diff in LFS. In LFS it's a good strategy to keep a few percent of throttle on to power-lock the diff, in real life you just decrease the possible lateral acceleration that way.

But the Nordschleife 1.0 of GTL is well done, which is why I have that game. I don't drive it in any powerful car though, because those are just too far off.

Vain

Vain, same thing for me, I bought GTL just so then when my friends come over, they don't get mad because LFS is too hard for them, and I really love the Nordschleife, but thats became the only reason I'll fire up GTL now.

[Gentlefoot]

Why don't you simply try the demo? :really:

For me, as I get my enjoyment purely from the realistic physics and FF, GTR2 would be a waste of money. But it's only like 20$, so it wouldn't be much wasted money...

Tried trying the demo this weekend. Had trouble finding a download link other than premium-pay ones. Found two slow ones (20kbps) waited 4 hours and then it timed out. Hence I haven't tried the demo.

My question is this. Are the graphics and sound as good as GTL? I don't care too much about physics, I want another game like GTL for the fun factor.

Already tried rFactor and nkPro - see 1st post. :)

[AndroidXP]

I'd say the graphics should be pretty equal, if not better in GTR2. And if you don't mind the physics, go for it. Like I said, it's not like ~18£ are much to cry over, so...

[tristancliffe]

You say you had no FFB in nK? That's odd, as I actually like the FFB in that sim. It's not quite as good as LFS's overall, but it does have some nice aspects to it, and it's very useable. I suspect you've not fiddled enough it it - try increasing the FFB % in nK options.

I actually have to rethink something I said earlier about steering feel - i.e. it going all light and mushy with lots of understeer. I was adament that this doesn't happen in real life, and indeed on road cars and karts it's not something I've ever been able to recreate. But driving the F3 car at Brands and Lydden I noticed it happening on the two hairpins. Too much lock (trying to cope with the understeer), and it DOES go all light and fluffy all of a sudden. This is something that LFS doesn't do (and I thought that was correct) but something that nK does (which I now know to be correct, but only so far in racing cars, not road cars). I think the ISI sims have this as a canned effect, which of course no one could possibly enjoy prior to brain removal.

[Gentlefoot]

You say you had no FFB in nK? That's odd, as I actually like the FFB in that sim. It's not quite as good as LFS's overall, but it does have some nice aspects to it, and it's very useable. I suspect you've not fiddled enough it it - try increasing the FFB % in nK options.



I did have FF but not much feel. Not compared with LFS anyway. I'll give nK another go - got a bit hacked off with it cos it took me ages to work out how to start a race, then ages to work out how to start the car, then ages working out how to configure the controls. So I didn't try it for long. lol

[nihil]

I also had problems with the GPL demo - mostly a repeating crash noise that won't go away. And like you I just can't seem to get into it, it feels a bit simplistic and it's hard to find a good line around Watkins Glen because the track doesn't seem detailed enough to pick reliable braking points and so on

Although I love GPL to bits, its probably not a 'pick it up and try' sort of thing - there are any number of graphics updates that improve the spartan originals and there are all kinds of tweaks and patches that need to be installed.

But with the original '67 cars, the '65 mod, and the winged '69s you get a lot in return for a little bit of faffing about.

And its the only sim I can run, that doesn't go into apoplexy with a full grid of twenty cars....

[Bob Smith]

I can agree, LFS and RBR should be all you need. The best physics on the market between them (although RBR is naff on tarmac, there's very little of that in the game anyway).

I find RBR a lot harder to drive than LFS, but I suspect that is also due to the massive difference in wheel time with both games.

[Shotglass]

I actually have to rethink something I said earlier about steering feel - i.e. it going all light and mushy with lots of understeer. I was adament that this doesn't happen in real life, and indeed on road cars and karts it's not something I've ever been able to recreate. But driving the F3 car at Brands and Lydden I noticed it happening on the two hairpins. Too much lock (trying to cope with the understeer), and it DOES go all light and fluffy all of a sudden. This is something that LFS doesn't do (and I thought that was correct) but something that nK does (which I now know to be correct, but only so far in racing cars, not road cars).

seriously ? even up to the point that the steering wheel doesnt move by itself anymore if you let go off it ?

[Blas89]

I like GPL, its cool. And i like Richard Burns Rally, i play it on xbox with some friends, my pc cant play it :( whatch my sistem :(

[tristancliffe]

seriously ? even up to the point that the steering wheel doesnt move by itself anymore if you let go off it ?

Dunno. Trying to make a racing car that I'm not totally in tune with, on a track I've never driven before go round a tight corner as fast as I can didn't seem like the right moment to let go of the steering wheel. I think it would have self-centered, but the self-aligning force (or rather the result of it on the steering column) became noticably less.

[deggis]

I find RBR a lot harder to drive than LFS, but I suspect that is also due to the massive difference in wheel time with both games.
It's because the road is narrower and ditches and trees are closer than in LFS. :)

[Rtsbasic]

GTR2 would be a good purchase if you enjoy GTL - the graphics/sound are a slight improvement, as is the feel of the cars. Plus the Nurburgring is drivable and doesn't look like its still 1998 in both GTR2/GTL which is a good bonus.

I purchased Race:wtcc a few days ago, its actually not bad for £23 but don't expect the same LFS level of feel/realism. Good fun in spite of this - good tracks, pretty good netcode, decent graphics and RWD's that can oversteer without the physics engine packing up and going home unlike past Simbin or ISI or whatever games. The damage engine has a definate impact on your race as well (aero, suspension, bodyparts and mechanical failures are all there). The demo is pretty rubbish though.

[Shotglass]

Dunno. Trying to make a racing car that I'm not totally in tune with, on a track I've never driven before go round a tight corner as fast as I can didn't seem like the right moment to let go of the steering wheel. I think it would have self-centered, but the self-aligning force (or rather the result of it on the steering column) became noticably less.

agreed it was sort of a stupid question
how much caster did you run on that day ?

[tristancliffe]

4° iirc

[Shotglass]

maybe with low caster settings and a light car the negative aligning torque you get at high slip angles is enough to counterbalance the forces from caster

uh ... well ... probably not

[AndroidXP]

It would be very interesting to know why exactly that loss of resistance occurs.

[Vain]

Aligning torque due to steering always tries to counteract the steering, aligning torque from caster tries to turn more.
But the way the aligning torque occurs depends on how much the tyre deforms, and in which way and is thus a question of tyre design. Milliken/Milliken Race Car Vehicle Dynamics has some nice tyre data where you can compare that. It's propably comparatively old data, but it already shows that race car tyres have an excessive drop in aligning torque at very early slip angles, while street tyres maintain a certain level of aligning torque.
Especially interesting is a aligning torque graph for a Dunlop champ car tyre. At 1000 lb vertical force the aligning torque drops from 160 lb-ft at 2° slip angle to ~20 lb-ft at 6°.
A Dunlop stock car tyre drops from 100 lb-ft at ~3.2° slip angle to 75 lb-ft at 6° slip angle. (At roughly 1000 lb vertical force. Approximated from 1100 lb and 800 lb graphs.)
Just compare how the aligning torque drops and you get the idea - the size of the drop-off is a tyre design question and lies in the flexibility of the tread and tyrewalls. The rest is just about calculating torque and it's complex, but not difficult. (But too big to post here.)

Vain

[Gentlefoot]

I was playing GTL again last night - just 5 mins. I just love the sound. Got in a 70s Chevvy - turned the subby and volume right up and set there revving the engine. That's almost more fun than driving!

But my question is this. Why do people hate sampled sound so much? Often on these forums people criticise games with sampled sound but I just don't see the drawbacks. So can some of you guys explain what you don't like about sampled sound compared with generated sound?

[510N3D]

You could do the GTR/GTR2/Race-demo-tour after you already checked GTL. Other content, same game.

I have the full version of GTL, and I'd say that the FFB is horrible. It feels remotely connected to what a car feels like, but on some cars it just completely fails, like the 911. Propably because of the weight distribution.
By the way I think that driving GTL is dangerous to your driving. In GTL it's a good strategy to pump the throttle to gain grip (the game thinks that there is weight transition and adds grip to the rear wheels).
It's a similar stupid thing as the diff in LFS. In LFS it's a good strategy to keep a few percent of throttle on to power-lock the diff, in real life you just decrease the possible lateral acceleration that way.

But the Nordschleife 1.0 of GTL is well done, which is why I have that game. I don't drive it in any powerful car though, because those are just too far off.

Vain

Im not sure if you know this one. Once a Guy from Virtual Racing (http://www.virtual-racing.org/) created some great FF Settings for the Logitech Wheels. Strange thing is, later in GTR2 i have found the same Settings (except 1 or 2 small Deviations) as i was about to take over my Settings from GTL. You may have a look at this. If you do not own GTR2, the Demo should also include em.

[Goop]

So can some of you guys explain what you don't like about sampled sound compared with generated sound?

It just doesn't seem to offer the feedback that realtime sound does :shrug: Mind you, I'm very non-technical, so that's just my take. For me, it's a matter of feel.

[Gentlefoot]

It just doesn't seem to offer the feedback that realtime sound does :shrug: Mind you, I'm very non-technical, so that's just my take. For me, it's a matter of feel.

I don't get what you mean - feedback. Please explain :)

[AndroidXP]

The sound currently gives you very precise feedback of the state the engine is in, regarding load, etc. Once you learn a car, you can tell the shiftpoint just by listening to the engine note.

With a sampled sound this is not the case, or very very hard to achieve. The generated sound also works 100% correct if you're not giving full throttle, which is often a problem with games using sampled sound engines. GTR2 for example sounds good on full throttle or on no throttle, but if you're in between it simply sucks, and at times you can even hear the sound sample switching back and forth from "no throttle" to "full throttle". Or CSR, for example, sounds absolutely pants if you don't mix it with the LFS sounds.

[xaotik]

So can some of you guys explain what you don't like about sampled sound compared with generated sound?

I like mixing both methods, currently I use CSR for the drivetrain sounds only. Samples I find are great for adding ambience and immersion. If LFS decided to properly simulated the drivetrain sounds I'd use that right away instead of the sampled implementation.

The reason I prefer the synthesized version of the engine sounds is that I can understand when the engine is being stressed. It just sounds plain different when going up a hill for example - which you don't get in any sample-based sound engine implementation to date (mind you, it could be done by DSPing the samples). Also, there's a distinct lack of "deja entendu" (already heard) since the looping points are not audible.

[Goop]

I don't get what you mean - feedback. Please explain

I don't really, either :) My guess is that LFS lets me know more accurately (or perhaps faster, or more intuitively) that a wheel is about to break traction (for example) than, for instance, an ISI sim.

That's pretty wishy-washy, sorry...:shy: perhaps someone more technically-minded can explain it better. Also, bear in mind I've done a lot more miles in LFS than I have with any 'sampled-sound' sim (tho I did get right into GTL, briefly), so it's possible I've just become accustomed to generated sounds :)

[510N3D]

The sound currently gives you very precise feedback of the state the engine is in, regarding load, etc. Once you learn a car, you can tell the shiftpoint just by listening to the engine note.

With a sampled sound this is not the case, or very very hard to achieve. The generated sound also works 100% correct if you're not giving full throttle, which is often a problem with games using sampled sound engines. GTR2 for example sounds good on full throttle or on no throttle, but if you're in between it simply sucks, and at times you can even hear the sound sample switching back and forth from "no throttle" to "full throttle". Or CSR, for example, sounds absolutely pants if you don't mix it with the LFS sounds.

This is simple not true, im not sure what kind of Soundcard you have but it sounds like onboard or so ;) Seriously LFS does it way better but sampling is not that bad as you think it is, its just outdated nothing more.

[Gentlefoot]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I now think I understand where you are all coming from. I will get on GTL tonight and try some mid-throttle driving and see if I can here the difference. TBH though I'm pretty sure you CAN hear when the engine is loaded or on part throttle in GTL. Or maybe it was my imagination filling in what was missing.

Will report back. :)

[xaotik]

TBH though I'm pretty sure you CAN hear when the engine is loaded or on part throttle in GTL.

Don't know about GTL, but all the other ISI-based demos I tried certainly don't do that. There's only a distinction in being on and off the throttle (you can also see this is the way the samples are split up in the game data directories) and there's no signal processing effects applied to them as they play, just crossfading and some simple volume modulation.

You can also figure this out if you try modding things in rFactor - there are no parameters that adjust the sample modulation for engine load, etc.

Actually, it works very much like CSR does.

[AndroidXP]

This is simple not true, im not sure what kind of Soundcard you have but it sounds like onboard or so ;) Seriously LFS does it way better but sampling is not that bad as you think it is, its just outdated nothing more.
I might as well have confused it with GTR, as I haven't played the GTR2 demo all that much. My sound card is an Audigy 2 ZS, btw.

[510N3D]

I agree, GTR may fit into your Statement, but in general the sampling Method works pretty good in other Games, especially in GTL & GTR2 :thumb: But still its outdated i think or in other words, LFS has a better Concept.

"Audigy 2 ZS" good Choise, same here ;)

[kompa]

Guys(esp. Tristan), how realistic do you find the tire sounds in nkp? Slicks in particular. I never hear them squeal, just a big swooOOSHhh when I spin. Is that correct at all?

Right now I'm going to put my friends Delta Audiophile 2496 soundcard in to hear the difference in sound quality with my onboard AC'97.

edit: Nope, can't hear any difference. I wonder what's all the fuss about with on-board audio being lousy...And LFSU30 still crackles on high revs.

[Bob Smith]

Getting off topic, but I noticed a small but pleasing difference going from onboard nVidia to to the Audiophile 2496 card, but I also replaced my 3.5mm to phono lead with a good quality phono to phono lead, so that is bound to have increased the improvement. It's important to remember you'll need decent amp and speakers to pick out the differences though, I'm running about £1ks worth of kit here, if you're trying on some Logitech surround system then I'm not surpises you can't pick out the subtle differences.

Also the crackling is due to the sound generation clipping the signal, before it reaches the sound card.

[mpn89]

Guys(esp. Tristan), how realistic do you find the tire sounds in nkp? Slicks in particular. I never hear them squeal, just a big swooOOSHhh when I spin. Is that correct at all?
In the single seaters I've tried i can't say I can hear the tyres much, the engine + wind noises overpower any noises the tyres make, I assume when you spin on dry asphalt you'd hear the screetch. Locking up in the rain you can hear a bit of a sound, very subtle, locking up in the dry if it's only a tiny lockup it's not easy to hear, for fronts a tiny lockup is a lot easier to see than hear, and for rears you can feel it (and hear it but not through tyre sounds).

You definitely don't get the loud understeer squeel on proper slicks as you do in lfs, or the sliding noise from oversteer/drift - you're able to feel the understeer/oversteer a lot easier whereas in games you need the unrealistic sound to help you realise it.

I haven't tried nkp.

[tristancliffe]

Indeed, I've not noticed slick tyre squeal. You get a scrubbing noise from a locked or sliding tyre, but no high pitched squeal like a road car produces. I've not really done enough mileage on wets to say if they behave the same as slicks or road tyres, but I also don't remember hearing squeal.

I suspect that race tyre construction and compounds exhibit different behaviour to road car tyres under relative motion conditions regardless of the amount of tread present.

[Bob Smith]

Isn't the squealling caused by having treads in the first place? So slicks tyres shouldn't shreik.

[Jakg]

From Karting i do notice that you dont get much sound from slicks UNLESS you do a complete spin - i think slicks are just less noisy!

[AndroidXP]

Isn't the squealling caused by having treads in the first place? So slicks tyres shouldn't shreik.
That's what I figured, too. The treads separate/create the rubber patches, which can then move around more freely and create high frequency vibration much easier. On slicks the whole tyre is the rubber patch, and so you need much more force to make it vibrate. At least that's how I make it up in my mind.

[tristancliffe]

But last time I spun a cut-slicked tyred car (ssshhh), I didn't have any recollection of them squealing.

But that might have been because I was too busy tightening my sphincter and reducing the outflow of waste material to notice whether or not the useless black round things on each corner were making funny noises.

[axus]

Just as a little thought, you need some kind of energy to go into producing sound. This is energy that can make you turn, so with racing tyres you'd try minimise the energy going into whatever else and just focus on turning.

[Jakg]

But last time I spun a cut-slicked tyred car (ssshhh), I didn't have any recollection of them squealing.

But that might have been because I was too busy tightening my sphincter and reducing the outflow of waste material to notice whether or not the useless black round things on each corner were making funny noises.well from my experience (it wasnt my fault - someone tapped me!), they squeal a small amount from sliding (the shame - on the first corner at Red Lodge i just take my foot off the throttle, start the slide and power slide round - no slower, much more fun and it makes anyone you've overtaked think twice before trying to get past, but when you do a full spin they get MUCH more loud and high pitched

[tristancliffe]

Aha, Karts. I don't I've heard karts NOT squeal during sliding, but I can't remember the last time I heard a slick tyred racing car squeal (from trackside I mean).

Don't apologise (below)! I was speaking from a spectators point of view (I've watched more racing (karts or cars) then I've driven, so...)... But karts always squeal, especially indoor ones on concrete, and a lot on proper tarmac still, whereas your average Formula Ford or GP2 car spinning on slicks won't be squealing. Which is why I suspect compound and construction, as well as road material, must play a part.

[Jakg]

Well, Karts are the only thing with Slicks i've ever driven! Sorry!

[mpn89]

Soft kart tyres don't squeel, and neither do soft rain tyres, only the hard compounds do.

[tristancliffe]

Can anyone else confirm this?

[mantis9]

At the kart track I work on I regularly hear tyres squealing.
It needs a dry track, fast drivers and a fast corner.
Im no expert so this is just info, these are rental karts with 13hp, twin engines (6.5hp each) on Biz chassis.
I imagine the tyres are quite hard, but they are definately slicks.

On Topic - Gentlefoot, if your still after the pick up and play thing you can have my copy of Toca Race Driver 2. I never play it, its rubbish.
pm me if your interested :)
I still fire up GPL occasionally, the demo on BHM got me into it a few years ago. Updating it is not as hard as you think, and definately worth the effort. Never been online with it, and its so ridiculously hard I enjoy the challange. I never expect to make a full lap without spinning, when I do its great, when I dont I just laugh.

[STICH666]

I have been testing demos this weekend. I tested rFactor, GT Legends and netKarPro.

It has made me realise how good the FF and physics are in LFS. GT Legends was the best of the three IMO. The graphics were nice but what really made it for me was the sound. It was excellent.

rFactor I had problems with the FF. It seemed to work in reverse with some kind of wierd 'anti centering' pushing the wheel away from the centre instead of vice-versa. I checked all the settings but couldn't see anything so gave up on this pretty quickly.

NetKarPro just had no FF feel at all. Graphics weren't up to much either.

What we need is the sound and graphics of GTL and the physics of LFS and we'd have a great game.

Anyone played any other demos I should try?

Play the Nascar Racing Season 2003. It is the most realistic nascar game ever created. Well at least AI and Physics wise. The graphics are somewhat dated.

[Transporter]

anyone else hate the tire squeal sound in gt4? :)