a cure to prevent cutting track

[Hyperactive]

We all know that you can get faster laps if you cut the track in some places. Like As3, before the main straight in the chicane or in BL1 in the T2 or T3 for example.

One thing that is common between these places is that you have to go trough sand or grass to do it. What if this sand or grass would get grooves and holes as you drive through it again and again and again? This would make it harder to use the shortcut as there would be a 20 centimeters (10") deep hole, which could easily break your suspension! Other thing I mentioned some time ago in the RSC forum was that dirt could spread to the track.

Or maybe the effect wouldn't be so huge in short races, but in longer races it would make some difference.

Comments?

[AndroidXP]

Yeah good idea. The lines taken to be fast aren't exactly realistic there (they'd normally ruin your suspension anyways)

[bLaCk VaMpIrE]

but in aston its ok, otherwise there would not be such a big curb and in reality you wont ruin anything there, but on blackwood you are right.

[Bob Smith]

Nah, fill the off track areas full of mines. That'll stop 'em. Make replays cool too.



...well it worked in CoD didn't it?

[tristancliffe]

Just have really big holes covered in sticks. Then put spikes at the bottom. We'd have Prince of Persia (the original) type 'deaths'.

[snewham]

nah just make the gravel traps like the other side of the barriers. If you try and drive on them, you fall through the floor :O

[DodgeRacer]

One word...

Snipers.

[Vendetta]

Just make a brick wall appear out of nowhere. No ones gonna get through that without a scratch.

[Hankstar]

Little cardboard mums with prams that pop up out of the ground. That'd freak you out.

[Takumi_Project.d]

i would bring back that fern bay grass with the glue.

either that or like a possibility of a puncture due to some foreign object jabbing the tyre.

[DodgeRacer]

i would bring back that fern bay grass with the glue.

either that or like a possibility of a puncture due to some foreign object jabbing the tyre.
Now thats an idea!! It ties into reality and it solves our problem :) (although sniping the lil buggers sure would be more fun) It would still be funny to see cutters floundering everywhere with punctured tires :D

[tristancliffe]

/me ignores the sensible options, and votes for snipers.

What do you think the tall buildings at the far end of blackwood are for? Businesses??? Nah, Snipers.

Or longbowmen. Or crossbows!!! :D

[JeffR]

Several options here.

Alllow everyone to use the shortcuts. LFS is still in development, it will get fixed later.

Try to enforce a no shortcut rule (not too practical).

Eventually LFS could either detect shortcuts and auto-penalize (GPL, GTR do this), or fix the tracks by putting up tire barriers (or somethings harder, since it's a game), just like they do in real life.

Personally, I like the GPL rule that you must have at least two wheels on or inside the curbing (or other track boundary indicator) at all times. For LFS, Blackwood is a track where this rule is violated on a routine basis, but most LFS players accept it as part of the game.

[Cue-Ball]

Why not just add tires and barriers to the tracks? Can't you do this in the AutoX editor already?

[AndroidXP]

Well, there are already tyres there, but it was probably a compromise between "making them stay on the track" and "preventing a too high ****up rate on public races". So they removed the ability to cut that corner completely but let in a bit of space to save some crashes. Or maybe it looked silly with a tyre there and Eric removed it :tilt:

[Cue-Ball]

But can't you use the autocross editor to put a tire back in if cutting is a concern? I haven't used it that much, so i'm not sure what the limitations of the editor are, but I think you could just put in a stack of tires, a barricade, etc. Pretty much anything would prevent people from cutting across the ground there.

[Blackout]

Having too much tires on the sides just make tracks look bit unreal and silly, increasing suspension damage is the only what could help...or the snipers :D

[Madman_CZ]

just raise the kurb hight so that if you clip it you will have a lot to do to keep the car on track......

or maybe just fill them up with spike strips :D


mad

[DodgeRacer]

:nod: :D

[Gabkicks]

how is driving through grass or a dirttrap over a rumblestrip a shortcut when it will most likely cause suspension and tire damage, and maybe even a crash? I am new to the s2 tracks but i assume it is the same for all the "shortcuts" on them too?:really:

Have you ever seen a race? people cut corners slightly sometimes. its not unrealistic.

...................
I know how to stop cutting!! rig the cars with bombs strapped to the driverseat. and if the car goes into these cutting areas the bomb goes off.!!

[DodgeRacer]

There are some places that you can cut and not get suspension damage ( like the one i showed on the blackwood rally track) or blackwood in the esses with the tires, you can slide right through them, the reward is normaly higher than the risk so people do it, and its ratherannoying

[Gabkicks]

everyone does it so i dont really look at it as a cut, lol.

[Madman_CZ]

:nod: :D

prefer this one....



mad

[DodgeRacer]

prefer this one....



mad
bwhaha, yeah both will work too :D

[Vendetta]

This could work..

[Hoellsen]

Personally, I like the GPL rule that you must have at least two wheels on or inside the curbing

It's not a GPL rule, but a general racing rule coming from real life. However, except for drastic changes to the tracks, there can nothing be done about it really. The tires stacks have the problem that once hit the tires fly anywhere, causing potential harm to drivers that are close to the idiot and yet driving regularly. Putting in walls would make it unrealistic and very unsafe if something goes wrong.

Even in GPL they have the occasional wallrider on the open servers. So there is nothing you can do about it except only race with friends and/or in leagues.

Or snipers. :)

[bLaCk VaMpIrE]

i dont really care about cutting the track, because the one who does gets dirty tires and on some parts you are faster when you do not cut.

[Tweaker]

But what about the parts that you can cut that aren't made of dirt/grass? :p Like on Kyoto....

Personally I think nothing should be done to the track. All we need is better suspension damage, and aero/chassis damage. Hitting one of those bumps right now is like smearing cream cheese on a hot bagel (mmm hungry now)... and normally your car would be damaged quite a bit. If this cannot be done, then the obvious solution is a Black Flag system which I thought was going to be in S2, however.... it is not, and we still need it :shy: Give the cutter a penalty and you've got yourself a solution.

[Vain]

Hitting one of those bumps right now is like smearing cream cheese on a hot bagel (mmm hungry now)... and normally your car would be damaged quite a bit. If this cannot be done, then the obvious solution is a Black Flag system which I thought was going to be in S2, however.... it is not, and we still need it Give the cutter a penalty and you've got yourself a solution.... any normally your hunger would decrease quite a bit. If this cannot be done, then the obvious solution is a fastfood system which I thought was going to be in S2, however.... it is not. and we are still hungry. Give the hungry a burger and you've got yourself fed.

Ehm, what did you just write? :)

Vain

[Hyperactive]

The suspension damage isn't the only thing that needs to be fixed. In F1, if you cut the track too much, your wings get damaged and the car becomes harder to drive. At present LFS doesn't simulate damage to aerodynamics at all. Also to hit the sharp edges of the curb should damage your tires too.

EDIT: nothing more

[Gabkicks]

i just watched a formula 3000 video where one car barely touched another car and his wheel and supsension for that wheel just exploded...lfs's damage can be a bit forgiving. after that, the driver died when his car flipped over a wall and his head hit the wall, cracking his helmet midflip....

anyways... better to come for lfs. the devs actually pay attention to us and they have a plan. things will get fixed :)

[Vain]

I think it's fine that you don't die because of a slight touch in LFS. In LFS we can't just turn our head or watch the car beside us while looking forwards. That's why it is harder to avoid hits in LFS and that's why hits shouldn't do as much damage as in real life.

Vain

[Gabkicks]

after a while, peopel get used to pressing look "left and right" buttons. experienced lfs players are capable of entering most turns side by side if desired without contact.

[keiran]

The damage in LFS is pretty good but it is a bit forgiving, but you have to remember it's not complete. Having the tyres and suspension fly off would be quite difficult (I think anyway :p) because depending on the energy going through the suspension and the way it's hit it might stay intact but be slightly damaged. I'd also like to see things happen like Kimi at the Nurburing on the last lap :p that would be awesome to have the flat spots get worse and affect the car.

Anyway I'm sure devs will improve the damage it just takes time to make it the best possible :)

Keiran

[Vain]

after a while, peopel get used to pressing look "left and right" buttons. experienced lfs players are capable of entering most turns side by side if desired without contact.But every driving-beginner can do that in reality, because in real-life you can see forwards while keeping an eye on the one beside you. Here we need a lot of experience and cautiousness because we look only into one direction.
...Or we force everyone to buy a TrackIR-system before he can play online...

Vain

[ajp71]

[serious mode]
A couple of solutions without even changing the tracks at all.

Firstly simulate undertray/diffuser damage, would instantly stop any of the GTRs/SS cutting the track.

Secondly realistic suspension damage, single seaters fall apart when you kerb them too hard let alone bounce across the grass at high speed, look at the number of suspension failures the F3 cars get at Pau, and those kerbs are nothing compared to what people clip every lap at a lot of the Fern Bay chicanes, if you clipped one of those at full speed in a modern small single seater IRL you'd be lucky not to have complete suspension collapse, I've seen it happen on everyday race track kerbs as well.

http://www.fota.co.uk/gallerypic.php?countkey=78&key=2342&season=2006&event=3

[/serious mode]

[Doorman]

Sorry to drag this thread up but I didn't want to start another on the same subject.
My idea is to inflict cutters with a 5 second penalty every time they go off track. The technology is in place as in hotlapping. Go off track and lap is invalidated. Instead of invalidating, plonk a time penalty on 'em! How long would it take to train people up to the art of keeping it on the island?
No only that, you wouldn't have to put tyre stacks/straw bales in strategic places, which elicit howls of anguish (It's on the racing line!) and nothing needs to be done to the tracks themselves.
As a side issue it may well induce a little more care in the general driving standards
Thank you. :)

[Dajmin]

Sounds like a pretty decent idea as a placeholder until the damage modelling is sorted.

But now that we have the guide line thing, it's pretty damn easy to check whether an obstacle is actually on the racing line or not :)

[Doorman]

Sounds like a pretty decent idea as a placeholder until the damage modelling is sorted.

But now that we have the guide line thing, it's pretty damn easy to check whether an obstacle is actually on the racing line or not :)
I know that and you know that, but try convincing people that habitually cut chicanes that. :really:

[Furiously-Fast]

What about putting hidden stingers in the gravel/grass?:D

[Luke.S]

fill the sand with mines.
i mean invisible barriers. :P

[Hyperactive]

I know that and you know that, but try convincing people that habitually cut chicanes that. :really:

Adding time to the final times by using artificial intelligence (or simple scripts) adds a new problem. Someone needs to fine tune the system so it a) works b) doesn't give penalties for nothing. Like in iracing, it is frustrating to avoid a wreck by going off the road and getting a penalty for it.

I think my system would be better :tilt:. With the ground surface wearing off on the places where people drive on would make the shortcut void after a while. And in a way it would be more natural, you still could go for the "shorter" route but there was the added danger of spinning due to bottoming out and/or breaking your car. Plus add the other idea that was suggested a while back about dirt spreading on the road (http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=197941).

[Tim_J_23]

This topic got out of hand.

Or make it realistic in a way that there are some pot holes here and there on the grass.

And maybe a beaver that is running over.

[Mille Sabords]

Sorry to drag this thread up but I didn't want to start another on the same subject.
My idea is to inflict cutters with a 5 second penalty every time they go off track. The technology is in place as in hotlapping. Go off track and lap is invalidated. Instead of invalidating, plonk a time penalty on 'em! How long would it take to train people up to the art of keeping it on the island?
No only that, you wouldn't have to put tyre stacks/straw bales in strategic places, which elicit howls of anguish (It's on the racing line!) and nothing needs to be done to the tracks themselves.
As a side issue it may well induce a little more care in the general driving standards
Thank you. :)

The idea seems good to me, only problem (as stated above) is the unfairness, the arbitrary application of the penalty.

Ex: If 2 drivers end up in the above described chicane at the same time, and play if fair, they may be forced to take wide lines way off the ideal racin line and thus get undeserved penalties for it.

Ex2: miss your braking point under pressure and you get a bit wide - ok, you slow down and get back on track, position lost. Did you deserve an extra 5 second penalty for it?

Extra obstacles (visible) do a better punishment job in theory but with the current collision detection they might as well send you to the moon... and if your field is tight flying tyres may cause a massive wreck - mass punishment?

I think a few cones well disposed with a collision detection, penalty linked (like training? I'm no programmer but it seems possible), may work, because it might be easier to tweak (penalty after a number of cones, or penalty above a number of cones/ lap or anything the like).

Thanks for digging up this thread, interesting to read knowing how LFS evolved. We are coming closer to a solution it seems :)

[wheel4hummer]

Cutting is sort of okay on rally tracks though. Don't they do that on real rally? Although that's rally, not rally cross so maybe not.

[MijnWraak]

The idea seems good to me, only problem (as stated above) is the unfairness, the arbitrary application of the penalty.

Ex: If 2 drivers end up in the above described chicane at the same time, and play if fair, they may be forced to take wide lines way off the ideal racin line and thus get undeserved penalties for it.

Ex2: miss your braking point under pressure and you get a bit wide - ok, you slow down and get back on track, position lost. Did you deserve an extra 5 second penalty for it?

Extra obstacles (visible) do a better punishment job in theory but with the current collision detection they might as well send you to the moon... and if your field is tight flying tyres may cause a massive wreck - mass punishment?

I think a few cones well disposed with a collision detection, penalty linked (like training? I'm no programmer but it seems possible), may work, because it might be easier to tweak (penalty after a number of cones, or penalty above a number of cones/ lap or anything the like).

Thanks for digging up this thread, interesting to read knowing how LFS evolved. We are coming closer to a solution it seems :)
Usually people don't go wide into corners that you can cut (because,well, you can't)

[Mille Sabords]

Well, I do:)
AS tracks with the chicane, if you miss you braking point at the end of the long straight you end up wide and you may have to cut according to your (failed) line, in order to avoid the rest of the field. I did that mistake a few when I jumped from LX6 into a FZS and back in CTRA servers.

[Dajmin]

The collision system doesn't seem to be that bad with movable objects, so hay bales and tyres don't cause the same orbiting issue. I'd go with just sticking them down at any potential trouble spots.

Forza 2 adds all the time you're off the track as a time penalty, but in these situations that wouldn't work because the time it takes to jump the grass is far less than the time it'd take you to go round the track properly, so you'd still benefit.

More bumpy grass that you can dig into would be great. And with undertray damage, even better. They'd only do it once then :)

[CasseBent]

How would a 5 second penalty work in a race? Just an addition of the total time at the end of the race? If so, wouldn't a drive through penalty be better?

Edit: Christ, of course it's not a deduction, but an addition...nobody saw it, so...keep moving.

[Bob Smith]

wouldn't a drive through penalty be better?
Seems a bit harsh for accidentally cutting a kerb too tight, especially if it was because you had half lost control (for some other reason).

[AndroidXP]

How about if someone leaves the track (HLVC?) then his current and next sector times are checked if they are faster than the one a Pro AI would drive. If he is faster, a penalty is given. Alternatively there could also be some node trickery done to avoid having to rely on sectors.

Maybe implement separate "cut zones" (manually, or automatically as HLVC-off on the inside of a corner) so it doesn't start the check every time you go off on irrelevant places, and to make this more transparent display a message to the driver in question that he is under cutting observation.

[Victor]

We all know that you can get faster laps if you cut the track in some places. Like As3, before the main straight in the chicane or in BL1 in the T2 or T3 for example.

One thing that is common between these places is that you have to go trough sand or grass to do it. What if this sand or grass would get grooves and holes as you drive through it again and again and again? This would make it harder to use the shortcut as there would be a 20 centimeters (10") deep hole, which could easily break your suspension! Other thing I mentioned some time ago in the RSC forum was that dirt could spread to the track.

Or maybe the effect wouldn't be so huge in short races, but in longer races it would make some difference.

Comments?

You know how with autox layouts you can create forbidden areas? I've done the same thing on the insim relay now. Just for one spot so far though; the blackwood chicane. If ppl drive around the chicane, they are forced back to spectating.
Atm that only works on our own host (connected to the relay), but i can make it an option on the relay setup pages if more people want that functionality. I can also easily add more forbidden areas on any other track if needed.

(why not just load an autox layout? Because our host is demo, which cannot load autox layouts)

[Doorman]

You know how with autox layouts you can create forbidden areas? I've done the same thing on the insim relay now. Just for one spot so far though; the blackwood chicane. If ppl drive around the chicane, they are forced back to spectating.
Atm that only works on our own host (connected to the relay), but i can make it an option on the relay setup pages if more people want that functionality. I can also easily add more forbidden areas on any other track if needed.

(why not just load an autox layout? Because our host is demo, which cannot load autox layouts)
Ha! Great minds. I've just been playing with autox layouts using invisible marshalls. When you go off line you're given a penalty but I'm not sure what that penalty relates to. I've tried a race with AI and funnily enough they all got a penalty first lap. They learnt very quickly not to do it again! I doubt humans would be so quick on the uptake. At the end of the race the penalties weren't shown nor accounted for on the results list. :scratchch
Where can I find out more about the effects of marshalls, restricted areas, penalies etc?

[Victor]

In LFS' shift-u mode, the yellow circles are route checkers and give time penalties for missing the route.
The red circles are marshall checkers (restricted areas) and should spectate you when driving on them. However i just tried, but i wasn't spectated. Not sure why. Maybe a bug.

[Dajmin]

Ideal. We need that everywhere. Or we do once it's working properly :)

You weren't flying through the air at the time or something, were you? :p

[dawesdust_12]

.. Vic, in SP mode, Marshall checkers give a time penalty (at least on AutoX track), rather than spectate. Online however they do spectate.

[Victor]

.. Vic, in SP mode, Marshall checkers give a time penalty (at least on AutoX track), rather than spectate. Online however they do spectate.
Makes sense.

Ideal. We need that everywhere. Or we do once it's working properly :)

You weren't flying through the air at the time or something, were you? :p
Well, if you meant my relay option, as said I can add checks anywhere on any track. If it's wanted, a separate thread might be good to have people list desired forbidden areas.
I could also apply different penalties on different shortcuts if needed. A blatant shortcut could mean forced to spectate, but somewhere else it could give a time penalty, or a drive through or whatever. Open for discussion.

[dawesdust_12]

Another one, at Aston, although I think spectate is a bit harsh (except for the BL one), I think that a drive-through is a better penalty for cutting corners as the one attached.

[CasseBent]

Seems a bit harsh for accidentally cutting a kerb too tight, especially if it was because you had half lost control (for some other reason).

Depends on the spot I suppose, but if people are aware, they might try harder to keep on the tarmac at any cost. The penalty could be far into the sandtrap for instance, but still in the "optimal" cut line or the most popular route.

I don't see how you would penalize someone otherwise and drive throughs are normal in real life racing right? The main difference between lfs and real life IS accidental detours as you point out.

[Doorman]

As far as I can tell route checkers spectate. That is too severe. a 5 second penalty tops. Enough to discourage cutting but not enough to really alienate the punters. They must also be on the lenient side as to how far out they extend.
@ Dawes. That's the very chicane that's bugging me at the moment. :)

[chavm481]

nope it doesnt, i would like a "pit" or valley down it those areas full of sand :D

[Michael Denham]

Regarding the shortcut question, why don't we consider this question...

"What would the FIA do?"

Actually, no, that's a bad idea. Scrap that!!! :D

I agree that it doesn't want to be too harsh, but maybe a 5 second penalty or something like that. Failing that, how about this....

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll3/michaeldenham/nomoreshortcuts.jpg

[Doorman]

Yep! That'd do it. :)

[h3adbang3r]

How about a swarm of mutant Antlions that can run at 225 mph that come out of the sand and chanse you when you drive over it?

[Dyllaann]

One word...

Snipers.

i rofl'ed when i saw that:D

[danthebangerboy]

I forget what track or server it was but i remember there was a very unexpectedly sharp bend and if you ran off wide into the stack of tyres they didnt move, you just stop stoned dead if you hit them,

[Zipppy]

I forget what track or server it was but i remember there was a very unexpectedly sharp bend and if you ran off wide into the stack of tyres they didnt move, you just stop stoned dead if you hit them,
That I think Is Fern Bay.


pyramids might as well be a good idea for preventing cheating :razz: :D