Spinoff : LFS aimless and without focus [Archive]

KiDCoDEa

4th November 2006, 03:53

Some people like to take the driver's eye view and move a little higher, back or forward.
yeah thats because they dont have a much longer requested feature, adjustable seats like in real life...

Others like to be able to return to 0,0,0 with one click.
why would u wanna do that as often to justify a button... and if u wanna do that how would that person desire justify a button for something they can do already in not 1 but 3 clicks? is there gonna be a button in lfs for everything that currently takes 3 clicks?

It's a long requested feature and one that was easy to implement and simple to understand. I can't see a problem with it.
its beyond per se. its what it represents. the bigger annoying problem is seeing useful and valuable contructive suggestions getting the bin over "easy" to do stuff, that although easy manytimes adds nothing to the full net aim. its a random thread spasm that wont connect anywhere and if lfs ever goes to a quality step above what it is today this will obviously be axed. This past year is basically the implementation of the easy to do over the actual stuff that matters. sometimes worse, the futile over the infrastructural.
this is not a boss talking, its a caring supporter. With proper producing, this sim would be miles miles away from what it is today, for the better. lack of quality criteria for domains u dont dominate is a recipe for lackluster production. You code like the wind, dats what u do great. we love seeing u being great at that. i dont recognize same amount of talent in other decisions beyond the code of code.

Your argument is like saying, why is there a HOME and END key on the keyboard, it's just predetermined crap in a text editor where one should be able to write text in any position. :D

i understand how you interpret. if u understood what i meant, there would be no need for me to understand you. but i do.
LFS IS ALL ABOUT MIRRORS AND MAP PLACEMENT NOWADAYS
Scared of real coding challenges. LFS is a pussy nowadays. I want the punk back.
iracing product could be a spark if lfs cared about competition. but i bet even dat wont make it break the numbness.
LFS lost focus over these past 2 years. I'm quite disapointed with lfs, especially because i know where it could have been by now. The wait and patience devoted to LFS, is returned with a not fully satisfying product evolution.
"dude wtf is happening with lfs ? is it dead? devwise?"- is the question i get over and over
"u havent been following testpatch section? supreme vital shit has been added!"- i reply
"are we going to see gtp etc and new gfx?"- i get asked
-only map being drawn on each side of screen and flowers and more flowers. i stopped complaining now i just "tease" in heathy mode.
so much attention to random reqs on forum, especially selecting the easy ones...getting ahead of obvious better stuff waiting in an growing queue of quality reqs over the years. really old stuff that would be cutting edge to this day...
surrounded by an artificial world that worships the established, and is happy with the average, its this "okayness" thats bothering me. This is not what made LFS grow to the product we have nowadays. just an example:
some dude requested virtual mirror and real mirrors all at once...
some dude asked for better ai...
LFS , added the mirrors thing instantly and ignored the ai thread.
Everyone is free to say or request whatever they want, (i aknowledge that scawen patience is even beyond his understanding, and since he understands a lot its same as saying he is close to saintwood) sad thing is... when LFS , repeatedly over the last year and half, takes the easy route almost looking scared of coding challenging stuff. Can't be lack of confidence with a full forum backing him and worshiping the smallest flower. is it over-confyness? Or maybe already fully happy with what's achieved?. Doubt that, yet i fail to see the healthy ambition. Even understanding the obvious real-life constraints (at least one of them is a blessing not a constraint surely). It also drains away any will to help and enhance quality. Quality notices where its welcomed. If whats welcomed is the established the evolution stops.
AI, gyroscopic, ik players allowing karts and adjustable seats, umbra+penumbra shadows, more complex aero, and a lot lot of other private stuff, planned or constructevly suggested ideas get the constant kick ahead into the future, aka delay, to make room for these terciary branches that sometimes dont even fit the main tree, of core joy.
Please dont view happy customers as men who want to produce a better product. they aren't.
If stalling is enough for them its not enough for LFS. Not for the LFS i support since sep2002 with all my freetime and goodwill.
LFS is losing focus. If ppl knew how much LFS progressed from sep2002 to 0.1 or from 0.1 to 0.3(S1) or even someparts of the road to S2... So much at such a nice pace. I dont see how people with knowledge of the inside can share dif opinion.
is "Scawen" a coder just trying to maintain everyone ok with it or is he a men with a mission?
flowers added almost over 2 years TAKE TIME also. You could have taken the ballsy route.
Imho, at the root, its not a time problem, its not a pace problem, its not even a workforce problem, those are after-symptoms, imho and at a distance, its a vision and focus problem.
lfs could have been by now much more cutting edge and more important in the realm of videogames and simulations than it is.
iracing cant really win in some areas over 4 years of daily feebacked wip deved polishing (alpha/beta/forum), but it can win in its focused approach.
overall, they know what matters, better than scawen knows.
prioritizing things in order to serve the big branch.
iracing will prolly be more unpolished in the overall broad sense of paying attention to every need and hardware and special usage from each player, however i doubt that will make their product worse in the main focus of immersion at the racing arena.
my posts do jackshit, maybe iracing will be the carrot lfs needs.

i had this diagonally mangled inside. prolly came out garbled and spiky but its my own limitation of reason output blended over emotion.
Disagree at will, just dont u dare saying i dont care.

st0rm

4th November 2006, 04:52

altho its offtopic...
i totally agree on that ;\
out of focus must be it..

i'd trade the 200's small fixes done since patch U for just 4-5 more important ones,

like trying to make the car class closer in performance..
fixing the clutch pack LSD wierd behavior under braking (engine rev dropping?)
working on the clutch realism... (yea since the G25 will be used by alot of ppl).. oh and engine stalling maybe plz?
anything else that could benefit on physics, sounds, graphics... (game immersion i guess)
i think its been often discussed that the turbo doesnt acts properly too..

im glad scawen talked about at least trying to make some sounds improvements... i still see hope somehow..

august 2002 to 2003, those were the good ol days

Boris Lozac

4th November 2006, 05:03

You said it all Kid.. Everything what i was trying to say is in your post.
Sorry Scawen, but he's right, totally right.
We are aiming for total realism, and yet it seems that position and the color of the mini map somehow became the most important thing to add... :shrug:

NetDemon01

4th November 2006, 05:29

I just feel embarrassed from the past few posts. And feel bad that I'm going to continue this offtopic-ness here. You guys need to stop complaining...it's never ending crap that Scawen has to face here. The forum complains because we dont get a test patch for a long time, so here Scawen is coding like crazy to please us on a near daily basis by providing new fixes, however small they may be. The big changes are INCOMPATIBLE and require tons more coding and greater amounts of time. Eventually these will get done. But the complaining won't even end there. Then you guys will complain that he's taking too long to release a patch. This is ridiculous. Some people are so ungrateful. Way to treat the creator of the game we all love.....

mkinnov8

4th November 2006, 05:51

@Kid

Id i didnt have to try so hard to understand what you typed up there, id guess you have some valid points. I think the key here is COMPATABLE.

If there was NO small changes and improvements made at all, we'd all be here moaning that lfs development has stopped, as we wouldnt realise that to do the bigger, non compatable stuff might take longer with all the testing, and none of the visual updates..

Since April, LFS has got better and better, and yes, agreed that placement of things on screen are less important than physics updates or failures/damage, but without those small changes, we would only be moaning at the lack of visual development.

You have to remember that everything will be inspired from a central dream, and from things that come and go around us. How about thinking of it this way.. Since April, there has been over 30 Patches released to LFS. Each one improving SOMETHING over the previous.

Kid, why aint you a dev yet?

EDIT: Appologies NetDemon01, if id have bothered to read your post before typing my own, I would have seen ive just repeated you there. Off-topicness.. Agreed, but if one gets away with it, others will follow. Lets just say, Kid, you just woke up a sleepy Stoney.

st0rm

4th November 2006, 06:13

Since April, LFS has got better and better, and yes, agreed that placement of things on screen are less important than physics updates or failures/damage, but without those small changes, we would only be moaning at the lack of visual development.

i agree lfs has got better in some ways, but id rather have no patch and only progress reports to inform me that important stuff is being worked on...

seriously i dont even know what im talking about maybe they are working on important stuff, but what i know is that they arent telling us if they are.. so if they are not, i gotta assume that the last 6 month were dedicated on low-priority features.

Dont get me wrong, im grateful for dev's work, the game is still great, but the future seems blurred, while other games like iracing are getting closer and promising, and the last thing i would like to hear when its released is that its superior to LFS in physics by alot...

axus

4th November 2006, 06:14

Firstly, thanks for another update.

Continuing the OT bit (because I think I have something to say that people have ignored - these posts should probably be moved to the LFS progress 2006 thread though), I agree with a lot of what Kid has said in terms of the development route LFS is currently taking. Its on top in user friendliness by a long, long way. More is hardly needed (except a proper setup management system - no matter how much of a "hardcore-its-all-about-immersion-and-physics" person you are, you won't say no to that). On the other hand, immersion is seriously lacking compared to some other sims - interiors, sound, etc.

But what you forget is that it depends on what a programmer is inspired to do at that particular time, and I see this period of user-friendliness features coming to an end with Patch V. As a matter of fact, I see this as a push on the boring stuff (because I believe that Scawen enjoys doing physics changes a lot more than this type of thing, or LFS would not be the sim that it is :nod:) so that work on the important things can be done flat out with no distractions. And seeing as its very much a user-friendliness/polishing-off patch I see no harm in adding a 2 minute feature that, for whatever reason, people want. This way, all the little stuff can be moved out of the way in one go.

So yes, what I'm saying is "be patient".... it sounds a bit uninspiring after having heard it for so long now. But this is a different kind of "be patient", because the light at the end of the tunnel is almost here and in another thread, its already been posted that Patch V can be expected this year. After that, it should be hardcore simmmer heaven. :D

Disclaimer: I've taken quite a few guesses here, so don't hang me if I turn out to be wrong. I hope I haven't offended anyone in the process. :)

EDIT: I also agree with Colcob and Xaotik below, just didn't want to make my post a 3 page snorer.

colcob

4th November 2006, 06:36

I think people are perhaps failing to understand, and Scawen has maybe not explained, that there is a parallel development of different versions. Scawen clearly has a non-compatible next version build in which all the big stuff (car updates, physics updates, AI etc.) get worked on, and every now again he spends some time improving usability and implementing community requests in the current compatible version.

I've always assumed that behind the series of continuous but minor improvements we've seen in the U test patch series, there has been a continued development of the major features for S2 Final. But Scawen has been keeping quiet about them so as not to get caught out like before.

Now I may be wrong, but I'd anticipate that at some point there will be a sudden release of a major non-compatible patch, and we'll all suddenly see what's been going on behind the scenes.

hrtburnout

4th November 2006, 07:20

I agree with Colcob. We shouldn't get impatient, they're really working on LFS right now. But things like these test-patches are necessary, not just the "colour of the map" but all those small features that make the game a little bit more complete.

Keep up the good work Scavier, you're going so fast that I can't keep up anymore :D

xaotik

4th November 2006, 07:26

April to October is 7 months. You can't compare 7 months of much later on development to 12 of early development. Naturally, when a program is just begining it will feel like it is progressing in leaps and bounds.

It's obvious that we all care about LFS and the mentallity behind it - the independent. But being as independent as it is also carries a price, go read Scawen's report again - his life has changed drastically, this will be reflected in the way progress is made here. You can't expect a person to miss out on his son growing up because he had to code a virtual clutch...

I think it's time we (the fans) got our priorities straight as well.

EDIT:
And NO - I am not saying that "Scawen is hiding behind his family" and neither could anyone.

EDIT #2:
And to get back on track with the test patch:
I just noticed the RPM dial on the XRG, XRT, XRR cars is obscured partly by the fuel gauge.

dawesdust_12

4th November 2006, 07:47

I also think that the reason that scawen is doing so many "customer service" type addons, is because he wants to keep U as compatible as possible, and any major changes, would have made an incompatible version, and we know that Scawen doesn't like to do this until the last possible point.

Scawen

4th November 2006, 09:24

[reply written on Test Patch thread before moving]

I'll move the OT posts away in a while, perhaps to the progress thread. But for now I'll just reply.

Simply, the criticisms of LFS development stated a few posts back are just wrong and displaying a lack of understanding, and failure to see the big picture. Or if you wish, you may interpret that as my failure to explain to you what I'm doing every step of the way. But seriously, my job is not to explain to you every step of LFS development and every plan I have for it, while they run through my head. My job is to get LFS done.

It was actually the two Vista compatibility issues (unlocking and sound) and the arrival of the G25 wheel that got me onto this series of test patches. It's very important, with more and more people getting Vista, and us receiving several technical support emails "I can't unlock on Vista" and so on, for LFS to work on Vista. Also we need that improved controller support to be readily available to new users. Also I've had enough of "How do I install a patch, I've downloaded it and LFS doesn't work any more" so I've been working on and nearly finished the auto updater. And that means, Patch V needs to go on the main site. And guess what - it should not go up there completely bug ridden and full of hundreds of small issues that have been waiting a long time to be fixed. But it should be compatible, I need to do some months of incompatible work, which I have outlined elsewhere and won't go into here. And there's no point delaying the compatible fixes, leaving the much poorer version U up there when we are so close to V.

The compatible fixes and improvements are totally necessary. The irritated commentators on this thread have no idea how much reworking and improving goes on inside the program while I'm on a roll. Also they don't understand how much simply MUST be done, outside the core physics, to keep the program on track. It does actually take more time than the core itself. If a great majority of the time was spent on the core alone, we would have a physically accurate, but totally unusable simulator that attracted no more than the absolute hardcore simmer. And we'd be poor and have to give up LFS and go and get a job! :D

This work NEEDS to be done. It's nothing different from any time in the past. A lot of compatible fixes, tested thoroughly by the community, followed by an apparently quiet period while we work on incompatible things which cannot be tested by the community because every day's test patch is incompatible, which would causing hotlap and online madness. And in that apparently quiet periiod there will be a new post each week "Where are the devs gone" and "They've taken our money and run" and "The devs owe it to us to write a detailed progress report each week" etc, etc... you know how it goes by now. :D

Anyway, I'm very happy with these improvements, I'm sort of embarassed now by version U and it's flaws and imcompatibilities, the visible things and the internal messes it contains that I have sorted out. I'm itching to get that version V up there but it needs the auto-updater finished (a couple more days work) and the new (minor) sound updates (a few more days work - still awaiting some longer work in the future). Nearly every one of these test patches has had some VITAL fixes, along with a few irritations fixed and some minor or major features. It really is not a bad thing for LFS, these compatible things that have been done, bringing us so much closer to a final S2 that can be released, when the other craved updates are completed.

It's a little sad the lack of trust displayed in those preceding posts. :( The belief that something has gone wrong inside our heads, that the developers who once knew how to develop, have changed mentally in some way, are hiding away in a hole, scared to develop anything but just scratching at the surface. It's quite a pathetic belief in fact, when the truth is Eric's there working on things that will improve LFS a lot amd I am working 10 hour days getting so much done, as fast as possible to get a stable version up there ready for the approaching silent period of core development.

It's going so well, and as described elsewhere our lives have been sorted out a lot this year helped by the S2 success, after neglecting ourselves for years, due to LFS development. It would be nice if the off topic commentators could just be happy about it and have some faith in the simple understanding that we developers who got it this far, and have devoted so much of our lives to this, probably want to take it to the next stage as well! :)

dawesdust_12

4th November 2006, 09:29

Scawen, these test patches have been amazing, the scripting addition was well done and a good idea, the sound fix was a good thing finally making LFS more Future proof, the latest minor GUI things are nice to make LFS more usable and customizable. Some people may find these patches useless, but I have to say you have done an amazing job with these patches, adding features, whilst keeping the versions compatible :).

felplacerad

4th November 2006, 09:47

Aha, posts finally moved. then i dare to reply ...

I think the fact that we are all are here, testing the test-patches and playing online every day is enough to show our faith and devotion to lfs. This Includes those who are not having off-topic argumentations in the test patch forum.

Vykos69

4th November 2006, 10:05

Scawen, I understand your point of view, but I sign Kids post all in all. How much days did that additional features etc. cost you? I know, you'd reply they didnt cost days, cause needed to be done, but honestly: It's nothing you had in mind, when thinking of what should be in S2... So imho it's lost days. While you're talking about people using the game, new customers etc. there is YOUR vital point: If LFS doesnt progress in some of the bigger issues (sound, gfx, online-code/collision detection,...), you will NOT gain any newer customers and will have to shut LFS down and call Mr Molyneux for a new job. If you start talking about customers, then take those effects into your mind: MP replays are not a pleasure to watch from the cockpit, due to - hardcore - stuttering wheel positions, no damage applied to aeromodel @ crashes causes questions of probably new customers ("eh, why this formula car still goes 300 with crashed wing??"). Those people DONT care about the options, it's NOT a VITAL thing to have bling bling in menus, as almost every really succesful game on the market showed, or does quake or counterstrike has good options and menus? And people dont use the "console" where they hack their commands in?
Counterstrike, to stay with the example of a succesful Online-only game, isnt succesful because of the "great" menu or the easy way to use it/set it up. It's because of the gameplay, the possibilities to watch other games online, and the easy way to get into an online game on the server.

I know, you dont like it, if people tell you, on what you should priorise, but I had to put my thoughts done. Get that damn V-Patch out and then finish S2, it's about time...

hrtburnout

4th November 2006, 10:06

[reply written on Test Patch thread before moving]
...Words from god.....

Very well written Scawen, I totally agree with you. Never mind them moaning people, just do what you think is right :thumb:

Warper

4th November 2006, 10:10

[reply written on Test Patch thread before moving]
It's a little sad the lack of trust displayed in those preceding posts. :( The belief that something has gone wrong inside our heads, that the developers who once knew how to develop, have changed mentally in some way, are hiding away in a hole, scared to develop anything but just scratching at the surface. It's quite a pathetic belief in fact, when the truth is Eric's there working on things that will improve LFS a lot amd I am working 10 hour days getting so much done, as fast as possible to get a stable version up there ready for the approaching silent period of core development.

I definitely want to highlight this paragraph - it really should show us that scawen and ALSO eric are more motivated working on LFS then ever before. And thats such a pleasure for me... :nod:

So especially i want to thank you scawen for having so much endurance in removing all the little bullsh*t (:)) and adding usability features instead of just working on another physics update. That shows us that even with the aklternative working methods the dev's also work on not so interesting things that have to be done...

BTW: Victor would be motivated the same if he had some work to do for V oder W. :D

Greets,
Warper

Yisc[NL]

4th November 2006, 10:15

Don't listen to the small amount of people that are complaining about your work and the work of the other devs. You're doing a great job by improving LFS on a regular basis. Many game-developers should copy your style, and should use it to improve their games as well, instead of releasing it, bring one or two patches and leave it that way. Keep your head up and remind yourself sometimes that most of the LFS-users are (extremely) pleased with this game, although they not always express themselves on this forum.

Scawen

4th November 2006, 10:19

I know, you dont like it, if people tell you, on what you should priorise, but I had to put my thoughts done. Get that damn V-Patch out and then finish S2, it's about time...No Vykos.

Here is where we differ. You think I should do everything now, get S2 finished as quickly as possible. Also I should not even eat, sleep, have a bath, watch TV or go shopping I suppose?

LFS is about Eric and me leaving Lionhead to make the product we wanted to. LFS is the result. And it WORKS! If you like it, use it. If you don't like it, try something else. if you want it to get better, then WAIT. It always gets better.

If there's ONE thing we have proved, it's that our development system works very well and LFS gets better every year. And we do that by working the way we want to work, and being happy (being thankful for the thanks and appreciation that we get, and not letting the frequent attacks get us down). It's not about giving up all that is fun, and putting our nose to the grindstone and acting as Vykos and Kidcodea's slaves that they bought for £24. It's about following our inspiration including ideas from the community and REAL LIFE, and getting it done. There is no time limit. There's no reason to think we are about to fall over and die, and neither are you.

Every year it taken is another year too many. But guess what, things take time. And a lot of people enjoy the journey.

If you and Kid know so much better (as you claim) how to make a racing simulator, then why the **** don't you get off your arse and make your own one?

Scawen

4th November 2006, 10:23

Just a post to say thanks to the people who have posted and do really understand how it works. :)

I know that the angry people are just impatient. I thank you for for enjoying the journey as we do. :)

xaotik

4th November 2006, 10:56

Below is my personal opinion - I don't think I am a fanboy and I usually (more often than not) take very long breaks from LFS depending on what's going on IRL and I don't play LFS online as much - I usually play offline to relax for an hour or so - so I wouldn't say I'm the oldest most experienced or hardcore simmer who's also got the inside knowledge on the arcane history and prehistory of LFS, but as a (mediocre) software developer I do appreciate the time devoted in making LFS. Also this is not "speaking for Scawen" or "defending Scawen", he doesn't need any of that - it's just my take on what I see:

I see no point in being impatient. There's nothing to gain from it or stating it, especially if it's already been said that "you will get what you've asked for."

Any sort of comment made on the hows and whys of development will eventually and unavoidably end up sounding like orders or bossing around, and I don't recall reading that we're entitled to it in the license agreement.

And honestly now, pause and think - isn't the current rate of development hugely acceptable for the quality provided? It's been 7 months since the last "huge" update. 7 months! Is that such a long time to us? Is what we don't have so detrimental to our enjoyment?

keiran

4th November 2006, 10:59

If you and Kid know so much better (as you claim) how to make a racing simulator, then why the **** don't you get off your arse and make your own one?

Well put!

Totally agree. As much as I would love to see LFS flying through adding loads to the core of the game there needs to be time spent tidying things up and adding the little small features that make LFS, LFS.

Look at nK Pro which seems to have taken the route of working flat out on the very core of the game and adding loads of features but is very very buggy and not very user friendly at all.

I'd rather see LFS gradually build its features up and not go the full bananas as nK Pro has tried and found it's self in financial difficulties with about 2 loyal people trying to defend it as all the new commers try figure out how to actually get the car moving ;)

ebola

4th November 2006, 11:28

Well Ive woke up this morning and just read this thread and personally I am absolutely embarassed by some of the things that have been said on here. Please Scawen dont be knocked back by some of these comments (I'm sure you wont). Ive just jumped from U to U29 and so I have seen all the changes at once and what can I say lots of very good little improvements that IMO make LFS more professional. These little changes make a BIG difference and judging by the number of requests Scawen receives he is not the only one who thinks the same either and it is just another step in LFS's life cycle. For example when a race restarts and the sounds now fades away that is a very minor change but everytime I hear it, I think yeah that sounds good.

This game is dynamic and as time goes by will always face new challenges and that is just a fact the people are going to except. This is summed up perfectly by the Vista sound thing.

I can do nothing but admire Scawen's ethos on the development of LFS and 99.99% people on this forum could not get anywhere near what Scawen has done. Remember that the next you are judging or presuming something about LFS.

Long Live LFS!!!!!

detail

4th November 2006, 11:29

Sometimes I also become impatient, and long waiting really annoys. But usually I give a full credit of trust to Scawen. His professional skills are excellent and undoubtable. This is seen in the text documents on LFS, in the open c++ applications made for InSim demo. All the good things that were added to S1 while developing S2, appeared in S2 as well, without problems, eg. skidmarks and smoke. S2 wasn't a ground-up rewrite, I guess it required minimum changes in the modules.

When I sometimes write something in PHP and terribly mess my code, I think "Scawen would never do such clutter in his code".

Though I really wish LFS had some good things of X-Plane.

detail

4th November 2006, 11:33

Yisc[NL]

4th November 2006, 11:48

One thing I really don't like is that quite often a new patch has a guaranteed crash somewhere, as it was with patch R, U28, U29 and some other U*. I just don't dare to download a recently published version (because traffic still costs money for me).

You're making a small mistake.
All U-patches are called TEST-patches and they have come with all sorts of warnings etc. etc.
Okay, I understand that it's difficult to download and install a patch, start to play and see the program crash somewhere, but hey, that's the whole purpose of bringing out this series of test-patches. Doing it the way it's done at the moment, it creates a very stable V-patch soon, which will be installed by thousands of people, instead of a relative small group. I think that if patch V was uploaded without all these test-patches, LFS got a big blast backwards with all the negative comments. Now Scawen can release patch V in the near futere, knowing it is tested very well and is as stable as possible.

Montey

4th November 2006, 11:51

Scawen, I was just wondering if you use a version control tool (like CVS, or RCS) at all, and if this change control tool can generate email messages containing something like "file blah.c just got updated with comment: foobar".

If so, could a mail-list be created that such update messages go to, like they do in open-source software development projects? That way people can subscribe, or even just watch an archive, to see that stuff is going on, and even get an idea of the type of stuff that is going on. It doesn't have to provide any access to the code itself, only show that a file has been updated with a comment when it is submitted to the version control system that may hint as to what changes were made.

Is this viable, or do you think it would create more panicked chatter than worth the hassle?

detail

4th November 2006, 12:05

;255959']Okay, I understand that it's difficult to download and install a patch, start to play and see the program crash somewhere,You've completely missed the point:

1) I pay for megabytes of traffic. You all have unlimited ADSL with monthy $20, but here even ADSL users pay for traffic. 3 megabytes here, 10 there, the price is $0,06/mb. It makes a lot of money, taking into account our salaries here.

2) These guaranteed crashes could have been avoided, IMO.

XsX!

4th November 2006, 12:05

just to say what i think: i love how you are doing the test paches work, all the compatibility fixes, sound engine improvments, and of course the interface polishing, that imho makes the product different from the rest. :nod:
keep up the good work! :thumb:
oh. and i have the patience, i love the game as is, since its an incredible experience for me.

xaotik

4th November 2006, 12:08

Source code modification timestamp disclosure: Is this viable, or do you think it would create more panicked chatter than worth the hassle?

IMO, that's a bit overboard. It's different in an opensource project and it serves a different purpose as well.

What's next? Will we also ask him to put a mandatory 24/7 webcam on his PC to see WHEN he's working?

I know that's not the point of your post, but take it easy people - Scawen is not our "Little Computer Person" or our reality show. He's let us in to as much of his life as he has and that's enough I think - and yes, the LFS source code is ALSO a part of his life. We're seriously verging the realm of the overpampered client-base here.

Bob Smith

4th November 2006, 12:11

1) I pay for megabytes of traffic. You all have unlimited ADSL with monthy $20, but here even ADSL users pay for traffic. 3 megabytes here, 10 there, the price is $0,06/mb. It makes a lot of money, taking into account our salaries here.

Off topic, but OUCH! If I paid the same rates our internet bills over the past couple of years would have come to ~$160,000! And I think I'm paying a lot now. Damn.

Hyperactive

4th November 2006, 12:15

I understand kid's view and see the points Scawen is trying to make. But imho the problem with latest test patch improvements is that instead of adding nice new features you could kick some stuff out, think a better way of doing it and code it better. In short run, the more time consuming solution, but in long run the much less time onsuming solution. The GUI, menus are quite a mess at the moment. It needs a rehaul instead of adding new flashy features for the 1% who think they really need them. Adding those custom view systems was exactly like that. Imho, a good feature but defenately too high priority given to such small feature when there are things that have been broken or missing since day 1.

I don't like it how the test patch threads get cluttered with improvement suggestions. But what I find surprizing is that some of the suggestions make it into LFS... Tragicomically, the best way to get a small feature implemented is to post it on the test thread :thumb:

I have always said and thought that the physics is the thing in LFS, the driving force and basis where every brick, feature, gets a good base to build on. Vista support is essential as all this stuff that is done for better compatibility. But physics is the base of LFS, this is what people expect from LFS. I feel pretty confident in saying that if the sound and graphics stayed the same but the physics got 2x better, no one here would complain. The physics are not bad, they are the best of the market but have some holes.

Imho, LFS needs a kick in the groin. LFS should get more aggressive, get some claws and angrier face. LFS should scare away its neighbours, bite the innocent and buttrape the ignorant. Instead of being a pussycat getting patched for a more pleasent ride.

xaotik

4th November 2006, 12:16

1) I pay for megabytes of traffic. You all have unlimited ADSL with monthy $20, but here even ADSL users pay for traffic. 3 megabytes here, 10 there, the price is $0,06/mb. It makes a lot of money, taking into account our salaries here.

2) These guaranteed crashes could have been avoided, IMO.

1) Seems that you have to take a decision on this. Is helping out with the test patches worth the extra 10 cents per download for you? The other option is to only download a patch after there has been some feedback about it.

2) Many software errors can be avoided - but most of the time it's the testers that spot them or experience them and report them. Haven't you ever accidentally screwed up when updating an application you've made?

SparkyDave

4th November 2006, 12:20

We're seriously verging the realm of the overpampered client-base here.
I have to agree with you here :)

I was shocked reading some of the early posts in this thread dont people realise its the Devs game and they can do with it what they see fit , I feel very honored to be allowed to try these U patches and do my best to spot things that might be called bugs or problems ,thats the whole point of this part of the forum no to critisise in what direction the process is going.

In response to Detail a few posts above, I also pay for bandwith here in the UK not everyone does but I do :) and none of the U patches have crashed in any way for me , you could choose to not try new patches you know thats no problems, and allways backing up your older version is not hard :)

I have to say I respect Scawen & co for not allowing some of the negative comments from high profile members to rattle them as it might me, I remember when I had my first child , not an easy time at all lots of changes ect,

Fantistic product great work Scawen, keep it up any way you like :D

with my full support.

SD.

Nick_ll

4th November 2006, 12:22

Well if there is one thing I'm glad to learn in this thread, it's that, considering that patch V is not out yet, and considering the time it will take to code, model and texture those uncompatible features for the patch after V, LFS will not get in the way of any family or friends gatherings this holiday season!

The sad way to see it, is that if we consider the last patch with "meat" added to be the one when the BF1 and single seaters new cockpits arrived, the next patch with "meat" will very likely be around one year later, if not more. And I find it sad because I would have prefered to see new road cars/GTR cockpits instead of the BF1 back when it arrived. I guess I'll start to play LFS more often again when next meat patch comes. Maybe I'll even download test patches again like the good old days!

Richard Torp

4th November 2006, 12:33

3 1/2 years ago i discovered LFS and I´m still here. Since i`m still here the Devs must do it right...otherwise i would have gone a long time ago.

LFS still gives me a kick..:thumb:

I would love to see new cars, tracks, many more improvements but only two guys are working on it, so it will take some times to get what i dreams about - but it will come someday..:thumb:

NotAnIllusion

4th November 2006, 12:42

:static: :static: :static: Scawen Scawen is our man, if he can't do it no-one can! :static: :static: :static:
:laola:

:tilt:

Blackout

4th November 2006, 12:51

:static: :static: :static: Scawen Scawen is our man, if he can't do it no-one can! :static: :static: :static:
:laola:

I totally agree with your wise words :D

B2B@300

4th November 2006, 13:06

I was shocked reading some of the early posts in this thread dont people realise its the Devs game and they can do with it what they see fit...

I have to say I respect Scawen & co for not allowing some of the negative comments from high profile members to rattle them as it might me...

Fantistic product great work Scawen, keep it up any way you like :D
with my full support.

:thumb: My thoughts exactly!

Haven't been on S2 or forums in a long while (lifes pretty busy), but still have the odd race on some good gti severs in demo every once in a while. And when I do, I still get a kick out of LFS :tilt:

ebola

4th November 2006, 13:26

SparkyDave good post and I also agree with you. Another analogy is this. You go to the shop and buy a game. That is it, youve bought it and when you install it that is what you get. Lets say you complete this game in three maybe four weeks, not unrealistic I would think. (Note the longevity of LFS, Ive been playing for two years+ and I still love it). Do you then go online and start making posts demanding more content? No I dont think so, so what gives you the right to come here and start berating the developer. You can post things in the improvement suggestions thread and Scawen may then CHOOSE to implement then. Notice the word choose, it is entirely up to Scawen.

It is also up to Scawen the direction that LFS takes and IMO Scawen has done the right thing polishing the finer points of LFS. This will help create a more professional LFS S2 Final.

The simple fact is this, you may think that LFS is aimless and without focus but posting a long post in a test patch thread was not the correct way to do it IMO. Fine if it is what you think make a post but at least show some respect to the developer, who has himself had some life changing events happens in his OWN life.

And if I have still not convinced you think about netkar (drivers republic also seems a bit quiet) and what CAN happen when you get it wrong. LFS is a perfect example of how to do it.

Keep up the good work Scawen and when you go to sleep tonight lie there and smile because you should be one proud dad.

Neil

JTbo

4th November 2006, 13:34

I like from promise that LFS will be worked on to better, even it may take some time. So I wait, sometimes do race or two when I have time, but I wait to day when I can start working to get my car into game :)

I'm not in rush, I did pay from S3 first day when devs accepted money, so I have invested and now I just look my investment to grow better. Of course I must say I'm bit surprised how long it takes, but it takes as long as it takes.

10 hours day, hmm, don't do that too long or you find out that you are not getting things done even 5 hours worth, have tried that once in my life, head just won't work that way I found out ;)

NotAnIllusion

4th November 2006, 13:49

You go to the shop and buy a game. That is it, youve bought it and when you install it that is what you get. Lets say you complete this game in three maybe four weeks, not unrealistic I would think. (Note the longevity of LFS, Ive been playing for two years+ and I still love it). Do you then go online and start making posts demanding more content?
That analogy doesn't really work because LFS is aimed squarely at the online player. One cannot 'finish' LFS and move on because LFS does not finish. If you look at other long-running online games, racing or not, no doubt there will be forums with plenty of people whining about updates or lack thereof, imbalances, the works. You could argue henceforth that retail games do have MP, and you'd be right, but you must look at games that are specifically targetting this aspect.

MMORPG's are like this, I don't know of other genres really, but I don't see why the same would not apply to NSMMORS's (not-so-massively-multiplayer-online-racing-simulator). :scratchch

DaveWS

4th November 2006, 14:09

My understanding of these test patches is that they were / are very very necessary at this stage.

The problem is, that with major patches, the small little requests get missed out. The series of test patches has allowed users and Scawen to sort out the minor important changes which have been forgotten. Such as the improved replay menu, view menu etc. Its no good having major updates with the physics, without first making sure people are happy with how LFS is USED. I am sure the small changes don't take long indivually, so why are people complaining? :schwitz: :thumb:

loopingz

4th November 2006, 15:06

I see you (Sc@wen) are ennoyed by allways the same posts since age and that's why you made the new test patch section. But as it is more a work section people who would like to say thank you, keep up, you rock, go on, so coool... are no more really wellcome. That is what I would have say for every test patch ! From the outside LFS seems sometimes to be stucky, but you do lfs the right way and you know it.
I can't wait for... and for... and for... (and also for working pedals) but anyway :
thank you, keep up, you rock, go on, so coool :thumb::thumb::thumb:

Vykos69

4th November 2006, 15:10

Here is where we differ. You think I should do everything now, get S2 finished as quickly as possible. Also I should not even eat, sleep, have a bath, watch TV or go shopping I suppose?Wrong, I said, some of your priorities seem wrong.
e.g.:Vista-compatibility is imho something doable after S2 is finished. It's something for an OS, which isnt yet on the market and is postponed to 2007 anyway. Why dont you do CPU Multicore-support then too?

LFS is about Eric and me leaving Lionhead to make the product we wanted to. LFS is the result. And it WORKS! If you like it, use it. If you don't like it, try something else. if you want it to get better, then WAIT. It always gets better.I know that, and I enjoy every step of LFS getting better, but maybe I love LFS too much, that I often want it to become bigger and greater, than maybe doable. Maybe some of my dreams of LFS future are doable with some other priorities in your way of coding, maybe not. Maybe that's why I am that harsh. Maybe I want LFS to be finished one day, and I see that atm LFS doesnt gain enough new players, due to the lack of being an S2 full version etc. etc.

If there's ONE thing we have proved, it's that our development system works very well and LFS gets better every year. And we do that by working the way we want to work, and being happy (being thankful for the thanks and appreciation that we get, and not letting the frequent attacks get us down). It's not about giving up all that is fun, and putting our nose to the grindstone and acting as Vykos and Kidcodea's slaves that they bought for £24. It's about following our inspiration including ideas from the community and REAL LIFE, and getting it done. There is no time limit. There's no reason to think we are about to fall over and die, and neither are you.well, why then sell it anyway? Hard word, i know, but you do that for a living, and if there arent new customers, there is no living....

Every year it taken is another year too many. But guess what, things take time. And a lot of people enjoy the journey.as said already, i enjoy that journes too, maybe sometimes too much

If you and Kid know so much better (as you claim) how to make a racing simulator, then why the **** don't you get off your arse and make your own one?This sentence just tells me, that I hit something right there. You should know, that not everyone with your skills gets a nice goodbye-money from former boss to be able to live up to three years from it. I for myself simply DONT have the skills and the money to do, what you did. And I admire you for this. Still, I'm not saying, I know how to code that sim, but I have some insight into the gaming market and how it delivers and therefor I think I can allow myself some opinion on it.

And now dont reply and get back to coding, cause else I have to cut your TV-time ;)

Yaamboo

4th November 2006, 15:21

Wrong, I said, some of your priorities seem wrong.
e.g.:Vista-compatibility is imho something doable after S2 is finished. It's something for an OS, which isnt yet on the market and is postponed to 2007 anyway. Why dont you do CPU Multicore-support then too?
It's coming at the end of this month to companies, and "normal people" will be able to buy it in a couple of months. IMO if there were critical problems that are now fixed with this patch, it was good to do it now. I'm not planning to upgrade to Vista, but I don't like the fact that other people who use it will have problems using LFS with it... And at that point the updates would have to be rushed.

NotAnIllusion

4th November 2006, 15:37

I have to agree. It would not look very good if LFS had massive problems with sound not working at all, not being able to unlock at all etc. under Vista. I can see Vista being forced on to consumers because businesses will make more money out of it, it's better to get LFS ready before it's too late :nod:

Breizh

4th November 2006, 15:41

Scawen, it's your game, your design, your project. If you know your plan is good, stick to it.
There's a few other games like LFS, being done by no more than 3 or 4 people, and they get exactly this sort of ranting too.
Neither those other devs nor those or these players are in your shoes, so their idea of the optimal dev. flowchart will always be different than yours (altho that other dev team has come to pretty much the same conclusions as you have, so you're without a doubt on the right track there).. and when they are seeing things thru your eyes, then still a few of them will disagree, and that's why it's you doing this game, not (no offense) those Brazilians, nor KidCodea, nor license hackers, nor the West bros., or anyone else really.

Van gogh didn't paint da Vinci's stuff, nor Bougereau's..

You've come this far along this path, and have so many people already hooked, soo.. it's too late to change directions :razz:

Scawen

4th November 2006, 15:48

On the Vista subject, really, there wasn't any choice, There wasn't a thought to the idea of writing on our website "LFS does not support Vista". People contacted technical support - they had tried the demo then bought a license and could not unlock LFS. That makes me feel bad. Should we refund these people, or put large notices all over our website in bold capitals warning that if they have Vista, don't bother with LFS? :shrug:

That kind of thing is a *strong* motivation to find out what's up - it could only be a simple thing, but one requiring a compatible patch. And after the unlocking was fixed (for Vista 32 only, it turned out, at first) only the sound issue remained. Would I really say at that point, "OK, I don't know what the problem is, but anyway, I'm not even going to investigate, I'll give up now before I start, and we'll just advertise all over our website, not to bother if they have Vista?" I can't think that way. Giving up before I begin isn't the driving force behind LFS. And all the time, tech support mails still coming in, reporting Vista issues! :D

Anyway, no-one should be sad about the sounds being fixed for Vista, the underlying system has improved and has got me on a roll with the sounds. This very productive time as I push hard towards patch V is just not the time to complain about anything. Do you really want S2 final released with the S2U sounds? No of course not, so why does it matter if I do sounds or physics first? The sounds are actually worse than the physics right now, if you want my own opinion.

DaveWS made a really good point, the features that some people have complained about, are ones that took about 20 minutes here and there. It's funny that they aren't complaining about the important things that have taken the bulk of the time these last few months. They are just getting in some kind of a flap because I spent 10 minutes on one thing, 20 minutes on another and half an hour on another thing, when there are some more important *several weeks long* things to do.

Should a man who has a broken leg not scratch his ear if it is itchy? Should he not waste 5 seconds scratching his ear, just because he should be more worried about his leg? I don't know, ask someone with a broken leg. :D

ORION

4th November 2006, 15:50

Vykos, would you buy some crappy shoes that dont fit your daughter's feet just because you need to leave the shop earlier? I guess you just cant understand game design or design in general, because it's a very personal and emotional thing. Most mistakes are done in the heads and mouths, not on the hard drive or desk.

Once you are unhappy with something, you can't work effectively as you lose the fun and thus the work flow. Also psycholgical and interpersonal conflicts might make things difficult at some point. "communication" and "management" are the keywords baisically.

Nowadays game design has changed a lot because of the enourmous time and money pressure - I have asked a couple of big names in the business (Tom Putzki, Piranha Bytes founder, Phenomedia - Gothic1-3; Andreas Siuka, Ubisoft Lead designer - Siedler (the settlers)) that I met here in my uni, and none of them said he is really happy with his job. I mean, you are working all day long and in the end your game sucks because it full of bugs (Gothic 3 eh...)

No decent game dev can be happy if he has worked many years on a game that won't even get a 80% rating in the end.
Simply because you are doing the whole thing in order to reach people. Game design is about 2 things:
- the smiles and tears on the player's face
- the smiles and tears on the dev's face
Everyone forgets the 2nd...

Maybe Scawen is the happiest game dev in the world :)
He can do exactly the thing he wants to do, and like he wants to, without having to worry about any external people telling you what to do.
AND he is successful with that. :)

Of course you can come and say LFS cant be successful if it's never going to be released. Well, it isn't even released yet and they can already live from that :)
LFS is really like an adventure and Im quite sure even EA will learn from that way in a couple of years. Outsourcing and buying online are the future.

Anyway, do you really think someone leaves a company such as Lionhead, with a genious like Peter Molyneux in it, if he isn't 100% sure what he's doing?
Or rather, why he is doing what he is doing.

Now I said "Scawen" all the time, but actually I wanted to write "they" or "LFS"... but now Im too lazy to change that all over again :D :razz:

abz1

4th November 2006, 15:50

With the level off support the devs give us £24 is dirt cheap compared to other games. If this was any other games manufacturer they would sell us this game as a finished product and not provide the same level of improvements.

I for one am happy the way devs do things, regardless how little the improvement is. Thumbs up :thumb:

George Kuyumji

4th November 2006, 15:53

Somebody with 'insight into the gaming market', but without Programming skills says Vista Compatibility now is not important :bigeye:

:feedtroll

I like the development process of LFS. I'm also happy with the product. € 36 for this Software feels like a steal

troy

4th November 2006, 15:59

its probably just another useless post here but if somebody is complaining
there also have to be people who say how good the development of lfs is :)

best example how to not do it was netkarpro they where in hurry wanted to sell
the product as fast as possible and what happend? lots of little (and big) bugs
the costumers have to live with then 4 months silence and a big patch again who
cured some of the bugs but still there are 100 others to erase

so what i want to say with this? i happily wait and see the progress of test patches
instead of hearing nothin for months get another not finished update with lots of
patchwork and half done fixes, this is maybe the slower way but at the end
the quality commin out of this progress is everytime again astonishing

so long post short conclusion: keep up the way you where always doing your work there will
be enough people (they are just not so loud like the ones complaining) who want to see quality before quantity

Akuma66

4th November 2006, 15:59

Am perfectly happy with the way the game is going, wouldnt want anyone else working on it. People saying things to the tune of they need to put more effort in, is bloody insulting.

Oh and like it or not, Vista is important. Not that ill be buying it (well not yet at least :) )

tristancliffe

4th November 2006, 16:05

I think I can see both sides of the discussion here, but I personally side with the Scawen view on things. LFS is what it is partly because it concentrates on simulating the things we love in a fashion we enjoy without (normally) resorting to fudges and tricks. And this has come about by many large development routes over the last few years by Scawen, Eric and Victor. However, to concentrate solely on the big things, such as sound, physics, damage etc would mean that the underlying 'interface' (for want of a better term) would become neglected and fragmented.

I think Scawen does the right thing in doing these little test patches and improving the overall experience now and again to keep LFS in check and working properly for the majority of the customer base. And when he's done tweaking, refining and adding options, he'll get back to the 'big picture'.

Surely if S2 Full was released tomorrow, with (let's say) fancy damage, amazing sounds, complete drivetrain support and balanced cars, but there were bugs, incompatibilities, difficult to understand features, sound that didn't work on everyones computer etc then the reaction wouldn't be entirely good.

Scawen is lucky in that LFS is HIS baby, and he can control when and how he improves it. None of us will agree that all his work on the test patches is for the greater good - I personally couldn't care less about a few of the new things he's done. But some people will care about those and care less about stuff I like. So at the end of the day LFS is a better product, and patch V will be a better product, and allow stability when the bigger features reach the top of the to-do list, so he can concentrate on getting them right, and not having to break off to fix yet another Vista bug or what have you.

I'm here for the journey. I've paid my money, and I'm in no rush for the journey to come to an end as long as I get to take in the scenery along the way and appreciate what we've got.

The other thing Scawen could do is do a Kunos, and never visit or talk on his forum again because of a few hurtful comments. Fortunately Scawen is thicker skinned than that. I get the impression that for all the moaning that goes on about delays to S2, silly tweaks and stuff, that Scawen remains his own biggest critic. That is something money can't buy, and will result in a polished, finished product when it's done.

Hyperactive

4th November 2006, 16:15

I'm really not so sure whether I should or should not post short and easy improvements suggestions in the TEST patch threads. After all, some of the suggeted features (UTC clocks wtf etc.) seem to get into LFS, even if there are many warnings, announcements and don't-dos there. If the suggestions are after all good enough, why not create a thread for TEST patch improvement suggestions? Like "TEST patch related suggestions, post here". Where users could post. It would at least cut down the crap in the TEST threads. Or is it really a problem? A real problem? I have a plethora of very simple suggestions but I have done my best to not post them there, because requested not to.

And when I say plethora, I mean it :schwitz:

EDIT:
I think I can see both sides of the discussion here, but I personally side with the Scawen view on things. LFS is what it is partly because it concentrates on simulating the things we love in a fashion we enjoy without (normally) resorting to fudges and tricks. And this has come about by many large development routes over the last few years by Scawen, Eric and Victor. However, to concentrate solely on the big things, such as sound, physics, damage etc would mean that the underlying 'interface' (for want of a better term) would become neglected and fragmented.
That's the way it is atm. To enable trees in graphics options -> put the disable trees to OFF, the controller options under "Player" tab etc. (list: Speed display, pressure display are under Player menu while they defenately should be under Display menu. Brake help should be...). What I'm worried about is that you get some small improvemtns to the GUI but they are splattered around the menus making the adjustments less user fiendly than they need to be.

Silncr

4th November 2006, 16:21

Amazing!

There are some guys finding the guts to tell there opinion here, bringing good points, true points and trying at least to move something with our beloved Ggame.

And then happens the same thing as every time a little sign of critism appears, its talked to death with those tiny thumbsup-smileys and praise songs about the amazing speed, that the journey of LfS moves on.

Its good to see, some people are not blind to find everything around here simply greatfull and amazing. time dont stands still, and there are other racing games to come. LfS has to move forward and I am not talking about the drivers position.

Just my opinion, please ignore it, if it dont fits here.

Shotglass

4th November 2006, 16:28

aw come on kid and vyk ... the most time consuming things that have been done in these test patches are the vista fixes which were absolutely necessary with vista hitting the selves this year ... i much prefer scawen fixing those problems now and forever instead of having him ripped out of his physics studies and see him lose time trying to work his mindset back to compatible vista fixes and then after those back to physics

and all the other fixes that were made are fixing all the little things that were wrong with lfs for years (like the chat that allways obscured the map when leaving the pits) not just icing on a cake

If a great majority of the time was spent on the core alone, we would have a physically accurate, but totally unusable simulator that attracted no more than the absolute hardcore simmer. And we'd be poor and have to give up LFS and go and get a job! :D

or you could just move to italy

Those people DONT care about the options, it's NOT a VITAL thing to have bling bling in menus, as almost every really succesful game on the market showed, or does quake or counterstrike has good options and menus? And people dont use the "console" where they hack their commands in?
Counterstrike, to stay with the example of a succesful Online-only game, isnt succesful because of the "great" menu or the easy way to use it/set it up. It's because of the gameplay, the possibilities to watch other games online, and the easy way to get into an online game on the server.

actually yes q and cs have very well thought out self explainatory menues (which lfs didnt have and in some points still doesnt have) which are enough to set the game up for casual gaming
and with the scripting system lfs has made its first steps into becoming an infinetly costumizeable console driven game which on the ui side imho is the only way to go

Wrong, I said, some of your priorities seem wrong.
e.g.:Vista-compatibility is imho something doable after S2 is finished.

iirc vista is due out this year s2 isnt ... so if scawen wouldnt use the release candidates of vista to fix issues his game has with them (which is one of the reasons why ms does rcs) hed be in a whole lot of trouble and lose many customers once vista hits the oem market

anybody who has a vista rc installed and actually knows what hes got installed will understand if scawen tells him lfs is currently incompatible ... anybody who just bought a new computer with vista preinstalled most probably wont

jeez i cant believe how much time i spent reading this thread

Boris Lozac

4th November 2006, 16:38

[reply written on Test Patch thread before moving]
It's a little sad the lack of trust displayed in those preceding posts. :(

It's not a lack of trust. I have a huge amount of trust and respect for your work.
Do you know how much i was waiting for you to say that Eric IS working on improving LFS. And i am SO glad for that. If we didn't moan we would never know that :)
We get so impatiant and angree from time to time because i really don't want to see LFS gets beaten by some other SIM, and i really don't want to switch boats. I am a kind of guy who likes to play only one SIM and aim for perfection in only that one sim, and that sim is LFS. I love it so much and i really couldn't stand some other titlle to take your crown in ultimate SIM.
That's why we get pissed when we see how time consuming these litlle updates are and how irellavant they are to the hardcore simmer.
And i am being repetative, i know, whit cockpits... but the fact is.. they are the same in terms of quality like they were in the first LFS versions.. :shrug: but you said Eric IS working hard, so i am really glad for that.. that's all i needed to hear.

Scawen

4th November 2006, 17:01

That's the way it is atm. To enable trees in graphics options -> put the disable trees to OFFHave a look in U30 ;)

That "fix" was requested by so many people for so many years.
Why not do it now, just before the major update that patch V is?
I can't take seriously anyone who doesn't think that was a good hour spent.

Vain

4th November 2006, 17:03

Just my small addition:
As a player I want to see progress.
LFS's sounds suck. LFS's diffs suck. LFS's aero model sucks. LFS's balancing sucks. LFS's cars suck.
As a (hobby-) programmer I encourage Scawen to spend time with the program itself, not only with the physics.
A well structured program with easily readable sourcecode and streamlined features is easier to maintain. When a program grows you need to fix things that are wrong. These 'hacks' clutter the sourcecode and make it difficult to improve. Once in a while you need to tidy everything up. Then improvement is a lot easier. Less bugs come up when improving things. Development speeds up.

That's the two viewpoints. As a player I'd like to see route one, but I also understand why Scawen goes down route two. It's his project, after all. We just make suggestions.
Hey, I just managed to both praise Scawen and be critical about his work in one post! :tilt:

Vain

Scawen

4th November 2006, 17:07

...the controller options under "Player" tab etc. (list: Speed display, pressure display are under Player menu while they defenately should be under Display menu...By the way there is a really good reason for that. These settings are per "Player" - you know, the selectable players. Maybe your little sister likes km/h and autogears while you like mph and shifter.

I don't claim that the menus are organised perfectly but those particular examples - they were done for a reason. The things in the player menu, are saved per "player".

NotAnIllusion

4th November 2006, 17:16

Ah perfect opportunity to slip in an off-topic observation

Would be quite useful if the Controls stuff, including chat binds would be saved per user

:)

Bob Smith

4th November 2006, 17:45

If I had to suggest something, perhaps sound lag into audio and dynamic LOD reduction into graphics. I do like the changes U30 brings though, it is clearer than before.

I had always wondered why brake help was under player, but now we all know. :)

Hyperactive

4th November 2006, 18:14

By the way there is a really good reason for that. These settings are per "Player" - you know, the selectable players. Maybe your little sister likes km/h and autogears while you like mph and shifter.
Users look always first under the Controls for these. There are stuff placed in different places because of the current gui system. And just to mention this, there is the "pressure" option (psi/bar) in the options->Player menu and in the setup Tires menu. One could easily do here, for example. When I'm commenting the gui, I'm not talking about the graphics or the way you go ticking thing on/off. I'm saying that a lot of stuff is placed in not-so-intuitive places, which means that you need to go through a lot menus to be sure that you have set LFS the way you want it to be. And this builds up as you add new features.

However, my point is that instead of adding small new features across the gui, the gui should be updated itself to fully accommodate the new features. The feature gets all the attention but the implementation isn't carefully thought out which results clutter in long run. This is partially what kid was talking about. Adding small things all over place (over-exaggarating) results in non-user friendly gui with options that don't make sense and require more options to be fully usable. The result is clutter. :). And when you later add stuff like multiple controls presets or multiple custom views you will found out that the current gui has some unexpected stuff interefering with these special options. Requiring more work.

The gui isn't the topic but this applies elsewhere too. But these small request are usually something that requires gui updating and when the small updates are done.

---
(How did he know I have little sister...? :x )

Dom Duhan

4th November 2006, 18:18

mkinnov8

4th November 2006, 18:35

iracing (if it gets complete) is gonna be very different to lfs. But, can we try, to stay on topic, in this off topic extra discussion area thingy bit thread.

Its great to finally be proved right on some people, but those opinions I will keep to myself here.

Scawen, Its great to hear that these people dont get you down, thats a great thing, personally, if it were me, id have quit visiting these forums a long time ago, I cant take the crap thats posted here sometimes, so the fact that you can read through all this and still be smiling on the other side.. :thumb:.

I do wonder sometimes, what people are here for.. For a great, and growing Racing Simulator, or to see how much money they can make from it, and im not talking about the developers..

+1 To seeing a Kid & Vik(whatever his name is) Online Racing Simulator.

Keep doing what your doing Sca!

Vykos69

4th November 2006, 19:34

/me goes for a spin in his brand new Porsche 911 S4 which he payed with the money he made from LFS....

:really: :scratchch

marcione

4th November 2006, 19:43

/me goes for a spin in his brand new Porsche 911 S4 which he payed with the money he made from LFS....

:really: :scratchch

vykos is a nfs:carbon driver :smileypul

tinyk

4th November 2006, 19:47

We pause here for a brief cookie intermission. Please feel free to take one, sit back and relax. :) kthx. Now back to our previously running thread. :)

(sorry for the hijack, just felt a lil huggle time was needed :shy: )

~*~*~*~tinyk~*~*~*~

(FIN)Eza

4th November 2006, 19:48

@Vykos

You're always been the person who says to whiners "it's done when it's done" so is this the day when that 'whiner' "disease" gets into you too? :D

Let Scawen decide when it's done, it comes when it's done anyway :thumb: :nod:

No hard feelings, just note :)

tristancliffe

4th November 2006, 20:02

Since when did Barbie have a castle? Some sort of agreement out of the Ken divorce?

JTbo

4th November 2006, 20:07

Since when did Barbie have a castle? Some sort of agreement out of the Ken divorce?

You know, divorce is not going to be cheap ;)

_Rob_

4th November 2006, 20:22

Whilst I can see where vykos et all are coming from, understanding what they want....I agree with scawen about all this, and tbh didn't expect that from you, vykos.
Whilst scawen should (and does) listen to the community about stuff, sometimes things do get 'wrong priority' perhaps, but as has been said, it make sense to do all compatible 'low priority' things first sometimes, leaving more time for higher priority things without getting distracted by 'when can you implement this, i asked ages ago' stuff. Besides, it's their sim not ours, so they could not listen to the community at all (am sure you can think of some sims where that happens...) - we're all very fortunate to have the relationship with the devs that we do, and it's best if we do as much as we can to help them out, rather then constant whining about how we think they should do stuff

Scawen

4th November 2006, 20:39

Thanks Rob, that is very close to something I was just thinking about. Something we've said before but I forgot this little fact about two different types of criticism.

Type 1) It's great that we get both criticism and praise for certain features that appear in LFS, and requests for changes and new features. This criticism of LFS itself is a very welcome type of constructive criticism that we always consider and take seriously.

Type 2) What's not great is the criticism we get from some people, for our way of doing things, our way of working, by people who don't know better, and who fail to realise that our way of doing things is what got us this far. For some reason, that type of criticism seems to be on a personal level and is very irritating. They are asking us to radically change our actual philosophy of working, which we enjoy and have proven to be effective.

I don't know if I've said that clearly at all. It's something about how annoying it is, to have certain people trying to give us a kick up the ass, when we are already working as hard as possible and following our method of prioritisation that we have already perfected over decades. :)

HorsePower

4th November 2006, 20:56

The bottom line is: What's going on here keeps Scawen from working on LFS because he has to read, clean up and post in this forum all day. :( Just let him do his job.

Huru-aito

4th November 2006, 21:50

It's something about how annoying it is, to have certain people trying to give us a kick up the ass, when we are already working as hard as possible and following our method of prioritisation that we have already perfected over decades. :)

It will never end, you know, the kicks up the ass. People love your product so much that they will need more and more to be satisfied. Some know that I'm anxious too to get new/better stuff in LFS, and that I can hardly wait.. If out of frustration someone (me?) asks you to do things faster, I'd wish you'd understand the reason - love and caring - and not take it too seriously. Don't let it distract you too much, just smile and keep on going like you were planning all along :D

This post was solely meant to distract our beloved coder and consume his precious little time even more!

DaveWS

4th November 2006, 21:57

I for one, would only criticise a particular feature of LFS which I was not happy with. This is what I would call constructive criticism. But as for criticising how the devs like to work, and what their priorities are, I think is just totally crazy. I mean, do some of you really believe that Scawen for example is going to think: "Hang on, yeah you are right I have been doing this totally the wrong way for all this time, I have my priorities completely wrong." I REALLY don't think so some how. This kind of criticism is certainly NOT what I would want if I was in their position, and it would probably demotivate me, if anything.

Krutch

4th November 2006, 22:10

Hey:)

I hope sc takes lfs onto the next level:) new gfx engine, new sounds, want 40+ online pls! hopefully the ability to make approved mods and new tracks (this is what i would like anyway:P) approved mods meaning, you supply tools and let people make content, get licenses etc and sell the material.

Lfs has huge potential but will be caned by iracing, it doesnt deserve this:P

cmon sc:P
:D

Hi Dom,

Thanks for posting here. You name a few good points. When the first public demo for LFS was released it had features which were not seen in any other sim: Great netcode, AI that learns by training, finally a sim not using canned physics. Of course it was a first public demo, version 0.04, but if those features were just a sign of things to come...

Looking back, the first release was the best. Maybe someone can help me here, but I can't think of much features added after version 0.04 in which LFS surpasses the other sims in the market. That's exactly what I think Kid and Vykos mean here. It's not about 'when it's done', it more 'what is done'.

For the price I paid for LFS, I sure think it's worth every penny. I think Scawen did a great job programming it. However, as a sim racer for over 8 years, I want to see much more hardcore sim stuff put in. LFS fan base comes from a diverse background. Some have been sim racers for a long time, others came from other games and LFS made them buy a wheel.

I think that's the difference between the opinions here. The Sim racers saw the potential, joined LFS hoping it would materialise. LFS came a long way, but I don't dare to say it cutting-edge. the few features that were are now no longer that, and no new features could ever get close. And that was what I hoped for when I started it.

This does not mean that Scawen must change whatever he does. It's his sim and it's a good one. If he's happy, that's great. I'm happy he took the challenge to create this. It's just, the racers with a sim racing background need one new sim that really beats LFS as a hardcore sim. I'd pay a lot more for that sim than I did for LFS.

Woz

4th November 2006, 23:37

This thread shows that too many people here equate owning an LFS licence, using the software and being an active member on this forum to being a part of the develop team with the demands being made here.

Has the NKP farce not shown those making the demands what can happen when devs ignore all the small details.

NKP has a great physics core and huge potential BUT unlike the LFS aand its devs the NKP team did not appear to care about the small details. The community bashed the crap out of it and it flopped. There is new light now BRD have injected some cash but look at the cost. The latest patch that aimed to fix MP issues also removed tire flatspots. The reason they were removed is because the feature caused issues with BRD's hardware. What else will be dropped because the NKP money holders don't like something or the direction of the project?

When you make a demand on the dev team why not THINK about what you are asking?

1) Why worry about Vista now? If you can't understand this then you are very very very short sighted. Vista will be installed on EVERY new PC sold. Yes there are many here, myself included, that will not upgrade BUT I can see why it needs to be sorted and sorted NOW. The RC is out and it goes gold very shortly. To not make sure it works would be VERY stupid of the dev team.

2) Why do we need to do all the "boring" stuff now? As the LFS user base grows then so do all the "boring" issues. As the time taken to deal with support on these "boring" issues grows it slows down the developmeent and time spent on the "fun" stuff. If you have never written software, sold it and then had to support a large user base while trying to add more features you will never understand this.

3) Why can't we get email notes from the source control to get details on progress? There is so much wrong with this request on so many levels. Every sim developer would sign up for the mailing list and get detailed blow by blow details from the source control system. The comments that normally go into source control are NOT for customers, they are for developers so they can trace what has happened to the code base.

It is almost like some people here appear to think the £24 they have spent on their LFS licence has also bought them a place on the dev team and given them a right to say the direction development takes.

Your licence buys you the right to use the software and LFS World. The devs also provide a forum to raise ideas, ease support issues and allow communication. ONLY the dev team gets to see all the emails and support questions that come in, you have NO IDEA what the big picture is.

Wake up and smell the coffee. There are loads of things I would like to see added... Weather, day/night transition, better GFX, fixed AI, hardcore mode etc. Does not mean I "pack a sad" against the dev team though, I understand the software development process as I have worked in it so long and know the "boring" stuff takes more time than you imagine.

DaveWS

5th November 2006, 00:25

Very well said Woz, basically explaining what I was trying to say in more detail. :thumb: I also think how NKP went was a great example too.

mosquito25

5th November 2006, 02:22

5mn ago, I was going out to have a cigarette, and suddenly all became bright clear :D.
Tonight, this is full moon :p

Maybe Copernicus was right ^^

J/K, don't kick my ass, plz :tilt:

SamH

5th November 2006, 03:06

I think Scawen does the right thing in doing these little test patches and improving the overall experience now and again to keep LFS in check and working properly for the majority of the customer base. And when he's done tweaking, refining and adding options, he'll get back to the 'big picture'.
[...]
I'm here for the journey. I've paid my money, and I'm in no rush for the journey to come to an end as long as I get to take in the scenery along the way and appreciate what we've got.

The other thing Scawen could do is do a Kunos, and never visit or talk on his forum again because of a few hurtful comments. Fortunately Scawen is thicker skinned than that. I get the impression that for all the moaning that goes on about delays to S2, silly tweaks and stuff, that Scawen remains his own biggest critic. That is something money can't buy, and will result in a polished, finished product when it's done.
What he said ^^^ but in CAPS. Thanks to the new layout of the options, I've spotted some poor choices of settings in my install, sorted them and gained 10fps. I'd have happily paid £90 for a new graphics card to achieve the same result, so I'm a happy bunny about the current run of test patches and the things they address.
...as a sim racer for over 8 years, I want to see much more hardcore sim stuff put in. LFS fan base comes from a diverse background. Some have been sim racers for a long time, others came from other games and LFS made them buy a wheel.
[...]
LFS came a long way, but I don't dare to say it cutting-edge.
[...]
It's just, the racers with a sim racing background need one new sim that really beats LFS as a hardcore sim. I'd pay a lot more for that sim than I did for LFS.
LFS is what LFS is, philosophically speaking as well as in terms of sim racing. If it doesn't meet your needs, then go buy.. umm.. go get.. errrr... ahhh. Hmm. We seem to have hit a problem. Frankly, I get a bit irritated when I hear "when x-sim comes out it'll kick LFS's ass!" and shite like that. It's like the fisherman talking about the catch he ALMOST made. IF it happens, THEN when it happens, stand any sim against LFS and if it beats it then it beats it. But please, FFS, no more nkP-style wish and a promise. We've been there and seen that, and some of us got their hopes up.. and look where that got them. NO more vaporware, I'm begging you! Put up or..
This thread shows that too many people here equate owning an LFS licence, using the software and being an active member on this forum to being a part of the develop team with the demands being made here.
[...]
It is almost like some people here appear to think the £24 they have spent on their LFS licence has also bought them a place on the dev team and given them a right to say the direction development takes.
[and a lot of other good sense too]
Good bloke, that Woz bloke.

I can't help feeling that, to a very great extent we've been made privy to a private argument between genuine friends. KiD, Vykos and Scawen are all people for whom LFS means a great deal, both in terms of vested hours and also in terms of affection. I've done my utmost (and now failed) to keep out of this thread because of this.. airing dirty laundry in public is something I've suffered personally, many times, and I'm really sad to see KiD and Vykos actively doing it, and (sorry but) I see some of Scawen's responses are voiced in hurt as a result.

It does nothing for the community to have this episode played out.. but since it has been, I'll put my weight (I've been eating a lot of Jaffa Cakes recently!) behind the "keep doing what you do so well" camp, and I'll be happy.

Glenn67

5th November 2006, 03:49

It does nothing for the community to have this episode played out.. but since it has been, I'll put my weight (I've been eating a lot of Jaffa Cakes recently!) behind the "keep doing what you do so well" camp, and I'll be happy.

:thumb: Play it again Sam :D exactly what I think too, my thoughts when I read some of the posts is why weren't these sent as PM's or emails. Did they really have to be aired here :( in the test patch forum of all places...

And to those that see people who offer praise and a thumbs up as unthinking unintelligent ignorant blind people :really: we see the same as you do and have similar dreams for LFS but at the end of the day realise it is Scawen, Victors and Eric's game and they can develop it as they wish.

They are doing an execllent job as is testament of the numbers of fans they have of LFS even though it can't be brought at the local games shop. But if at the end of the day they develop it for another further three years say and at that time someone else releases a title that eclipses LFS is that a failure? Not in my eyes because I've only paid what I'd normally pay for a regular game (or less) and have had continual support added content and untold hours of fun over that time all for the price of a night out at the movies with my wife :nod:

One gets the impression that these feelings and emotions aren't brought about by the decisions the developers make :schwitz:but more likely the prorities people place on being online, playing games and perhaps not doing other things they should be :razz: but jokes aside it is just a game or sim or whatever... and is or should be a hobby to pass the time, and not something that rules our entire lives, if it is its not the developers that have a problem its you :x

Matrixi

5th November 2006, 09:05

While I partially agree with Kids and Vykos'es posts, none of us here can tell the devs what to do and when to do since it is their sim and they have the right to develop it when they want to and how they want to. We are the consumers, they are the devs.

The Vista compatibility fix is definately 100% necessary, it would be plain dumb not to make LFS compatible to an upcoming mainstream OS. That is one thing development time should not be taken from, even though most of us won't propably even touch Vista with less than a 10-foot pole. If Vista wouldn't have full LFS compatibility, how good would that be for sales? Not very.

Why are all the little GUI fiddlings being done now, is what I can not understand. LFS is in the middle of S2 development, little GUI fixes and tweaks that we have in the recent test patches are usually done in the nearly finished beta or release canditate state of games. Even small fixes take time, and as said in this thread before me by others, 1 big fix/tweak is better than 100 small ones.

I wouldn't be too surprised if a couple strong comments like earlier in this thread pop up, when there has been pretty much no news of upcoming features or content. If the devs don't tell the community that there is something better to come, I can easily understand people to get anxious and frustrated.

I posted a little idea in LFS-Torque about how the devs could drop a post or two in an un-official blog that would keep the players aware of what the devs are currently doing and what we might expect to get in the future. A blog that would be completely un-official and have an disclaimer before entering/reading that none of the features or fixes written in the blog would be certain or guaranteed to make in to LFS. That way hype and eagerness would be kept down and everyone would know where the development is going at. Of course it would take a little bit of time to write the actual posts in the blog, but considering how many people it would propably keep happy, isn't it worth it?

Oh, and here's a little smiley so this post isn't all that serious and dull. :)

*Disclaimer*
Anything written in this post is just my own humble opinion and should not be judged as an negative approach towards anyone.

Scawen

5th November 2006, 09:34

Why are all the little GUI fiddlings being done now, is what I can not understand. LFS is in the middle of S2 development, little GUI fixes and tweaks that we have in the recent test patches are usually done in the nearly finished beta or release canditate state of games. Even small fixes take time, and as said in this thread before me by others, 1 big fix/tweak is better than 100 small ones.It's one of these things where your MUST go into specifics. Why are "all these things" being done is a pointless question and there is no answer to it. There is a different answer for each item on the list of changes.

[ The rest of the post is not to Matrixi in particular but to the people who think I've spent ages on pointless things... ]

I suggest you copy the list of changes from the test patch thread, into a text document, re-order them so that you can separate the necessary and important (probably 90%) from the other unnecessary (probably 10%). Then assign some times taken to do each of them (you will be wrong in the time estimates, mine are always wildly wrong, but anyway). Then you will probably find that this whole argument here is about a few miniscule features that took 1% of my time for these months. The other 99% was on absolutely vital or at least important changes.

Keep some kind of a sense of proportion. As I keep explaining, spending 10, 20 or 30 minutes on a feature that could possibly be left out, because I feel like doing it, is NOT going to delay S2 by any noticeable amount. It's not your business to attack me for slipping in a few long requested small features which I probably did on the day of a test patch release (after spending six days on vital improvements) and so be able to cross the feature off my list. When I have an hour or two spare and don't want to just sit around pointlessly waiting until the evening release time and am obviously not going to start on a two month project, on a Friday afternoon just before a test patch release.

I don't need to explain this to you, I don't need to answer to you. I'm writing this so you understand how ridiculous it sounds and perhaps you can lay off the generalisations in future. You are welcome to criticise a specific feature, but telling me how I should organise my time, based on your imagination of what time I have free and when, is really not a good idea.

EDIT :

And as I keep explaining, I do what I feel like when I feel like it. That means, if I see an item on a list that I just feel like doing or I stumble across something on my way through the code, I GRAB that opportunity and DO that little feature or CLEAN up that section of code that always needed doing. It's an EXCITING process and one that you, the community, reap the benefits of. If I wrote a priority list and worked from the top down, I would soon be bored and and the tidying wouldn't ever get done. I'd LEAVE. That is what I mean by saying, this is MY WAY OF WORKING.