OK then, so who wants a driving test for faster cars?

[Theafro]

It's been suggested on another thread on this forum, but i'd like to know (and show) what the general opinion is on introducing a series of compulsory driving tests for access to each of the cars, like the ability to race for 5 laps with a pack of AI WITHOUT touching them or falling off. you do this for each car in order to drive that car online. or something like that :)

it WILL improve driving standards if introduced but has it's disadvantages

[GTR_Yuni]

I say yes.

But to do it for ALL the cars would be boring. So why not do them for one car class and then all cars from that class are unlocked.

[dUmAsS]

a driving test for the f08 should be much harder then one for uf1000 as well

(it shouldnt be about doing fast laps either, but about car control)

[Bob Smith]

Driving in LFS is never boring. If it is, you're doing it wrong.

Yeah I agree with driving tests. I wanna say I've passed them!

[GP4Flo]

The driving tests are already there, so the question is whether they should be used to unlock the faster cars for multiplayer.

My opinion is: definatively yes!

The faster cars are hard to drive and we have seen what happens when a newbie tries to drive them on a 20-player host. With these driving tests people would still be able to drive them offline without a need to unlock each car, but driving online would need to pass a driving test, like e.g. the overtaking lessons, first. For an experienced driver such a test wouldn't take long, around 1-5 mins for each car so I can't see any point against it.

[axus]

I definately agree.
I think that a slalom course, a lap of blackwood with AI and a pit stop test should be in there.

[ajp71]

The AI are far too agressive as it is, it would also be very difficult to tell if a car is all over the place on the ragged edge (and therefore dangerous to race against) or if the driver is in control in a completely balanced car.

[tristancliffe]

Yes, it would help.

But the main thing is educating people in driving standards, which tests would be hard to do. If you are not on the pace, or in contention for a good result, be aware of where you are relative to the leaders, be aware of whats coming up behind you, and be aware of which lines you take, and where you lift/brake when being lapped.

The most important thing is to NOT try and get back on the racing line after a spin immediately. Look around. Glance at the map. Take into account the speeds at that part of the track. Never ever change lines if you are causing a hazard. The quicker drivers will MUCH prefer it if you stick to one line, and allow them to pass you safely, rather than have to worry about what weird driving you are about to do.

If in doubt, drive offline, watch the better racers for a week or two, and be prepared to shift-s at a moments notice.

Newbies deserve to learn. But they also have an obligation not to mess up those that have learnt to aquit themselves on track.

[Theafro]

like a big interactive (but somehow scripted) test that could piont all those things out and make sure that they are understood by the testee,
not a simple thing to organize but it could have some value in discouraging those who can't take driving in LFS seriously enough. i have a feeling that those who do not want to take the test would be more likely to have accidents online

[ajp71]

I think LFS suffers from being a sim but is dressed as an arcade game, all the extra on screen overlays coloured names, drifters, and the demo cars don't help to convey what it is, a sim. I doubt very many race with the map on. I only have the Lap and my Position, which is more than enough information for me. I think people also ignore yellow flags, they mean no overtaking (the only exception being if a dangerous speed differential) and people seem to think they can be running side by side bashing wheels then complain when they find a car in the middle of the track. Look at GPL I know it did have wreckers originally but the racing quality tends to be much better, admitably a lot of people are off the pace and spinning all the time but it doesn't cause huge flame wars. The sooner we get open wheeled cars that tangle with each other the sooner people will stop driving like go karts.

[Shotglass]

the problem is not lack of driving abilities the problem is lack of common sense ... and you just cant teach that with a few driving tests

[axus]

Perhaps an introduction to racing video as you first enter the MP screen that you are forced to watch? One that explains all these things? If someone is willing to create the video, I'm sure Scawen would implement it as it would help improve standards online. Perhaps PM him about it before taking any initiative though...

I imagine it to be a kind of thing where a car gets itself in dangerous situations and text explaining potential dangers and what can be done to avoid them...

[Vain]

A video will propably not help against the "Hey, I'm bored! let's ruin someone's race by bumping into him and see his car crumble!"-people.

What might have an effect is setting the amount of exchange-cars to exactly one. So you can once shift+s back to the pits and try again, but after that you have to finish the rest of the lap and go into the pits to get your car repaired. That will make crashing people very boring because the crasher has to drive all the way again (which can take ages with a broken car). On the other hand the normal players will most propably still have their secondary car available and can immediately race on.

Vain

[axus]

A video will have an effect on the amount of unawareness regarding rules and lack of common sence and driver ethics on track and that is one issue that must also be addressed.

There are not too many wreckers around and decreasing their number further by making it less convenient for them will help with that issue. They can usually be dealt with by banning, especially on S1/2 servers where they become permanently banned if they behave inappropriately. I think there should be a limit to the number of times you can go to the pits with Shift+S in one race and then carry on (1 spare car would probably be most realistic - if you park in the pits and go to the garage to adjust your settings, then a car change does not take place). This would keep wreckers off long race servers as they would be able to cause 1 or 2 crashes and they would have to sit the rest out. Perhaps some damage should be permanent, even after a pit stop, because you cannot really repair everything in a race.

[Vain]

Permanent damage would propably make the normal players extremely frustrated that were hit by a wrecker.

Vain

[Boris Lozac]

I am all for those tests!! If you want to drive online, you have to learn the basics of driving and racing, and also rules, which MANY don't know.. So if you want to drive a some car, you have to pass several tests like, safe overtaking, perfect lines, looking left-right-behind(one guy say to me, that he didn't bothered of settings those buttons, and wonders why is his falt for a crash!?), and other basics.. And that is like for all cars, and then for a particular car, some other tests, like, how to control that car, how to enter corners with it, etc.. This is a MUST HAVE, if we want clean racing!

[ajp71]

I don't think lack of education is the issue, but it does seem that whilst a lot of attention is given to blue flags, yellow flags are rather neglected.

[Theafro]

the problem is not lack of driving abilities the problem is lack of common sense ... and you just cant teach that with a few driving tests

Sometimes, the ignorance you see online simply comes from not nessecerily knowing what is expected of them. ok there's a brief message in game message. but most kids just want to drive a cool car about and do some cool stuff,

it would be nice to set the 'tone' of the game BEFORE they're set loose onto the servers. it might be tough nut i've got the idea forming for a series of tests, one for each 'class' of car, there are a few things that need to be done to make it work tho' :

it needs to be fun
it should show and test the main points of good online behavior,
it mustn't deter would be buyers
it should add to the experience of LFS

i dunno, it might work but starting off in the begining with a couple of quick tests (not base too much on speed tho') before you can race on the demo servers and a further one to drive the GTT,

when i say test i would prefer it to be in the format of an enjoyable excersise in racecraft like staying between 2 (improved :)) AI about 60ft apart. maybee 'accident avoidence','How th start' and a 'flag useage' tests would be interesting!:)

[ajp71]

most kids just want to drive a cool car about and do some cool stuff,

What are the drift servers for?


it would be nice to set the 'tone' of the game BEFORE they're set loose onto the servers.

BEFORE they buy it.

[CI-Man]

Hi All

I dont know if this is such a good idea for those of us who are genuine players. Myself and many other new members dont want to feel punished because of a certain minority. The most important thing to remember is we all paid money to play this game in its complete form. As its multiplayer orientated i also expect to be able to play the complete game online whenever i want to. I dont have enough time to play the game as much as i would like allready, let alone having to spend my time passing driving tests before i can play the complete game online. I am sensible enough to race around the track in a fast car allready without causing any one else problems. So instead of punishing everyone or making things more difficult for the genuine users punish the idiots and wreckers in the first place, make it harder for this minority to come back and cause more trouble by permanently banning them. After all they are in breach of their user agreement in some way or another.
If you start adding features like compulsory driving tests people will simply avoid buying the game and look for a more hassle free alternative. I am starting to regret giving this game and its community a chance allready. Sadly its not the idiots that are putting me off, its people who are still not willing to accept most new members are sensible adults and treating us all like children instead.

Kindest Regards Tim

[tristancliffe]

I know it sounds elitist, but this is what I'd like (bit long winded though).

Most men like cars and planes and internal combustion engines. Some might pretend not to, but most do. So the natual tendancy is to buy racing games. Therefore people that like cars buy LFS. They may not want a serious race, or to have to think about driving and therefore demand babyish features like Traction Control, or something that makes setups easier. This is bad! Bad for the racing online (as lots of people don't really care), and bad for LFS's image (look at PC Zones inaccurate review).

Now, as I said most men also like planes. Especially jet fighters. There are a number of sims on the market. Some attract lots, and these are generally the more forgiving sims. The ones with arcadey addons. The better sims (X-Plane for example) only tends to attract the more serious flier, and so nice things like Space Shuttle descents are added to attract sales, and well... simply because X-Plane can. If you play a serious flight sim online (IL2, X-Plane) you TEND to meet a more serious, sensible bunch of people, who will fly with you, avoid you, maintain radio contact and not swear. Or wreck.

Because LFS simulates cars and is very good value for money, it attracts more 'monkeys'. Those that don't care, those that want to ruin other peoples enjoyment, and those that only play for a laugh, and don't worry about getting quicker, or causing the odd accident.

So, how to improve the racing. I doubt either will be attractive on this forum, and I am wearing my napalm/bullet/flame/radiation proof suit already.

1. Make LFS more expensive. Price ourselves out of the main consumer market, and only the serious will tend to bother with it. Overall sales will decrease, but it'd sort the men from the boys.

2. Make LFS more 'simulated' Get rid of nearly every arcade/noob add on, and make it as pure as a pure thing on national Pure Day. The fun-runners won't want to bother because the learning curve is too steep. The more serious people will put the effort in, and ultimately be rewarded with the best online experience.

Now, neither solution is perfect imo. But I think LFS is so accessible now that idiots feel they CAN just go for a drive. And it is so cheap that people don't worry about abusing other people (either by wrecking or by gusing someones name derogatorily). As I said I don't expect anyone to agree with me, as no-one ever does. But perhaps it's food for thought for a different approach?

[Boris Lozac]

Yea, but that would hugely decrease sales!! Do you want that..?

What do you think of this? :

A system, that when you are banned, you can't race anymore on that track with that car, until you pass a test for that track/car.. then you can come back and drive online..??

[Kegetys]

I wouldn't personally mind passing some driving tests to get access to the fastest cars, as long as the tests would be made well (For example I'd propably hate a test of some kind where you would be forced to drive with the current AI drivers) as this would mean everyone I drive with online would have at least some basic knowledge on how those cars handle. It might also be helpful if there would be some means of seeing how much experience people have, like maybe display the amount of online credits a person has when he/she joins a server, or display the amount of laps he/she has driven on the current car/track combo in the name list. This would make it much easier for admins to concentrate on new people to watch how they drive and instruct or kick them if necessary, and the other drivers could also see that the person might not be so experienced and could be more careful when dealing with him/her on the track.

I would also support much more strict policies against wreckers from the devs, in clear cases of someone doing wrecking even once should get their license removed immediately.

[axus]

I believe that lack of education is actually an issue. So many times, on demo servers especially, you get people parked on the racing line, people comming back onto the track in a dangerous manner etc. Before you can teach these people how to drive you must teach them the ethics of driving. Also, a course that introduces you to the racing line would be nice - one where you start out with a normal single corner and have to keep within certain boundries. Then a chicane, showing the optimum racing line through there and so on. Also how to navigate a series of corners demonstrating the concept of 'you may have to take a slower line through the second last corner to get a better line into the last one and therefore get better corner exit speed onto the straight'.

Also "How to overtake" and more importantly "How to BE OVERTAKEN". I don't know how you will put this in a test - perhaps put several AI's in an XF GTi and have the driver in a GTT and the other way around and if the driver makes it around the track without having made contact with the other cars then he passes. You would have to teach the AI's how to be overtaken too and how to overtake cleanly - I found it very frustrating when I was doing the training and the AI's pushed me off my racing line when I was overtaking them and onto the grass and if I made contact it was 'my fault'.

Such tests, coupled with a video when entering the MP screen for the first time will greatly improve the standard of driving online.

If the concepts of:

> Taking it easy into the first corner of a race
> Flagging
> Overtaking safely
> Comming back onto the track after and off
> Pitting in the last garage in the pit lane available
> Practically all Racing Rule (simmilar to the ones provided by the CRC)

and any others you can think of that are relevant are demonstrated in the video, I think it will lead to an improvement in online racing.

[o000o]

Lol, you guys are funny. Do it yourselves on your own servers.

[Theafro]

I am starting to regret giving this game and its community a chance allready. Sadly its not the idiots that are putting me off, its people who are still not willing to accept most new members are sensible adults and treating us all like children instead.

Kindest Regards Tim

I'm frankly worried that you feel that way, i certaily don't mean to be elitist but there is a big problem with the standard of play online, and a FEW little trials just to make sure you understand some of the things needed to clean up the servers.

it would be foolish to base these trials too much on speed because we all drive/learn differently. it should not just be fair to noobs but actually usefull to them.


BTW Kegetys. slickmod kicks ASS :thumb:

[axus]

Hi All

I dont know if this is such a good idea for those of us who are genuine players. Myself and many other new members dont want to feel punished because of a certain minority. The most important thing to remember is we all paid money to play this game in its complete form. As its multiplayer orientated i also expect to be able to play the complete game online whenever i want to. I dont have enough time to play the game as much as i would like allready, let alone having to spend my time passing driving tests before i can play the complete game online. I am sensible enough to race around the track in a fast car allready without causing any one else problems. So instead of punishing everyone or making things more difficult for the genuine users punish the idiots and wreckers in the first place, make it harder for this minority to come back and cause more trouble by permanently banning them. After all they are in breach of their user agreement in some way or another.
If you start adding features like compulsory driving tests people will simply avoid buying the game and look for a more hassle free alternative. I am starting to regret giving this game and its community a chance allready. Sadly its not the idiots that are putting me off, its people who are still not willing to accept most new members are sensible adults and treating us all like children instead.

Kindest Regards Tim

I think you are blowing the concept out of proportion - the tests we are discussing are ones that would not take a driver that can control the car on a basic level no more than 10 minutes per car. Basically, anyone who drives every day on the road will be able to do it, just not 13 year old kids that don't know what to do behind the wheel and are just pressing pedals randomly. The video I am so persistent with will ensure that they will use their knowledge of car control to remain within general racing rules. I'm pretty sure that F1 drivers sign their name somewhere saying they understand the rule book right? This is basically the same thing.

Someone suggested that the racer should be given a chance and if kicked/banned from a server then force to do the tests... perhaps this is a solution?

[Boris Lozac]

Someone suggested that the racer should be given a chance and if kicked/banned from a server then force to do the tests... perhaps this is a solution?

Yea, that was me.. :) I think it is a good idea.. If it is my decision, i would also implement some real life crashes, pictures, videos.. ;) to show them what would happen if LFS is real life..

[ColeusRattus]

I think we all agree that wreckers are a problem, although I have yet to encounter them on S2 Servers.

But I do not agree, that there should be a "test" to unlock the faster cars, because it would just be annoying to the experienced players.+

I'd rather have a mileage system based on the LSFWorld. So people with lots of miles dirven can just hop in, and noobs, like I still am, have to drive to advance.But rather than unlocking cars with certain distances driven, I'd like to see a server option, where the admins may set a certain distance you have to have driven to join.

[ajp71]

> Pitting in the last garage in the pit lane available


OK so maybe lack of education is an issue :), whats the point in that?

Maybe other blindingly obvious things could be added like a cold tires board at the end of the pitlane and a note to remember downforce is lost in a draft.


2. Make LFS more 'simulated' Get rid of nearly every arcade/noob add on, and make it as pure as a pure thing on national Pure Day. The fun-runners won't want to bother because the learning curve is too steep. The more serious people will put the effort in, and ultimately be rewarded with the best online experience.

Definatley the best way to go, strip down LFS, remove menu music, multicoloured text, maps, and set it so that blue and yellow flags can be displayed with ALL the other overlays off. And make the flags flag shaped (like in rFactor) and less in the way. I know doing this would detract a lot from LFSs current style of doing things but it would stop it being like an Arcade game. Maybe a hardcore mode (like N2003) with only auto clutch and cockpit view as well as keyboard filter. Maybe there could be a special version with flashing text and neon lights if thats what the noobs and drifters want.

[tristancliffe]

Maybe a hardcore mode (like N2003) with only auto clutch and cockpit view as well as keyboard filter.

Gosh. I'm gonna have to nip to the bathroom for a bit with a print out of that statement....

Be back in ten minutes

*prints and goes for some 'privacy'*

[Bob Smith]

2. Make LFS more 'simulated' Get rid of nearly every arcade/noob add on, and make it as pure as a pure thing on national Pure Day. The fun-runners won't want to bother because the learning curve is too steep. The more serious people will put the effort in, and ultimately be rewarded with the best online experience.
I thought that was the aim of LFS anyway?

[tristancliffe]

Yes it is. But there are still some noob aids around. I want NONE! Muhahahahahahahaha [/selfish]

[ajp71]

Yes it is. But there are still some noob aids around. I want NONE! Muhahahahahahahaha [/selfish]

It's not even the aids (though I dislike them) but the general arcadey feel and I think LFS even has an option to play music while driving, which is just ridiculous.

[tristancliffe]

Arcadey feel? You mean driving wise, or the slighly cartoony front-end? I actually like LFS's no nonsense front-end. Plus you can change the pics and the colours to your liking.

[ajp71]

Arcadey feel? You mean driving wise, or the slighly cartoony front-end? I actually like LFS's no nonsense front-end. Plus you can change the pics and the colours to your liking.

The front end really, would like to see a more stylish version of NetKar, and have the ability to set the track and car for sp from one screen of drop down menus, that's just me others may want it differently, so let them be, there's nothing to say there couldn't be 2 front ends. Also an editor for the positioning/size/font of all the overlays would be good.

[axus]

The front end really, would like to see a more stylish version of NetKar, and have the ability to set the track and car for sp from one screen of drop down menus, that's just me others may want it differently, so let them be, there's nothing to say there couldn't be 2 front ends. Also an editor for the positioning/size/font of all the overlays would be good.

I quite like the front end... I have quite heavily modified it but its easy to use and has no stupid falshy colours and spinning things (except the car in the one screen, but I'm not refering to those spinning things)

[Ramla]

For an experienced driver such a test wouldn't take long, around 1-5 mins for each car--
I have to disagree on that. If you're obsessed getting the PRO-ratings it might take several hours, at least when you're tired. I'll even testify to that.

[Cue-Ball]

I'm not a fan of this idea at all. If I pay for the game I should have access to all of the cars. Also, there are plenty of people who have been playing racing games for years. Those people can jump into LFS and run good laps without the need to "train".

Including driving tests in the game is one thing, but forcing people to pass the tests in order to drive each particular car is a bad idea. And no amount of tests can MAKE someone drive clean. Once the green flag drops people's excitement gets the better of them, even if they're good drivers. I've seen plenty of T1 crashes even on servers like the endurance leagues where you have to qualify just to race. You can't stop the wrecking, but putting in mandatory driving tests can certainly turn people like myself away from this sim.

[Woz]

I voted yes but with the following conditions

1) You should be able to take the test for any car you want and should not have to take tests for cars below it.

2) The test results should be stored on LFS world so when you reinstall etc you dont have to take tests again.

3) There should be a server side setting that allows you to force tests before people can use a car or not. This will allow open public servers and also more controlled servers where you at least know people have some skill in their chosen car.

[Woz]

I have to disagree on that. If you're obsessed getting the PRO-ratings it might take several hours, at least when you're tired. I'll even testify to that.

But you should not need PRO level to pass and hence only if you really MUST complete all at PRO will it be an issue

[FEANOR]

My feeling is there neededs to be some driver education but there also needs to be driver standards.

The "Driving Test" in GT4 are good for learning the game but I think with LFS they should be made harder and there is none of this bronze, silver and gold rubbish. You either pass or failand perhaps some racing theory should be included aswell. This can give you a baseline for people to reach but its no subsititue for mile driven. I may not have done the most miles in LFS but most of my miles have been done racing.

The 2nd part of this is driver standards. ATM memebers of Screaming Donkey Racing are drawing up a Driver Code of Conduct for people who enter our server but maybe there should be a Driver code of Conduct that spans the whole community. That way there can be one set of rules to go by.

If anyone wants I can scrap together what we have thus far most of it is being taken from the Confederation of Australian Motorsport Handbook 2005 and being rewritten to make it suit LFS abit more.

[Gunn]

I think LFS suffers from being a sim but is dressed as an arcade game, all the extra on screen overlays coloured names, drifters, and the demo cars don't help to convey what it is, a sim. I doubt very many race with the map on. I only have the Lap and my Position, which is more than enough information for me. I think people also ignore yellow flags, they mean no overtaking (the only exception being if a dangerous speed differential) and people seem to think they can be running side by side bashing wheels then complain when they find a car in the middle of the track. Look at GPL I know it did have wreckers originally but the racing quality tends to be much better, admitably a lot of people are off the pace and spinning all the time but it doesn't cause huge flame wars. The sooner we get open wheeled cars that tangle with each other the sooner people will stop driving like go karts.What has any of this got to do with driving skill? Being able to drive the cars does not mean you know what a yellow flag means, or how to negotiate turn 1 without causing a pile-up, or how to brake in a draft, or hold your position and line through a corner with a car beside you, or when the safe time is to overtake, or how to leave the pits safely, or any other common courtesy or aspect of race craft.

People often blame any incident on unskilled driving. A visit to almost any public server will show these incidents occurring amongst drivers who are more than capable of handling their chosen car.

There are two issues here: Unskilled drivers & unskilled racers. Both of these issues need to be addressed and I believe a driving test does not in any way teach a person how to race cleanly. No amount of driving tests will give a rookie any idea how to contest a race properly. The driving tests teach driving and car handling skills and techniques, helpful yes, relevant yes, but don't expect all of those non skill-related incidents to go away just because people complete a driving test.

[sdether]

1. Make LFS more expensive. Price ourselves out of the main consumer market, and only the serious will tend to bother with it. Overall sales will decrease, but it'd sort the men from the boys.

2. Make LFS more 'simulated' Get rid of nearly every arcade/noob add on, and make it as pure as a pure thing on national Pure Day. The fun-runners won't want to bother because the learning curve is too steep. The more serious people will put the effort in, and ultimately be rewarded with the best online experience.

I think one way or another it'll decrease sales. I don't think less sales would be popular with the dev's and they do deserve good sales for their hard work.

Here's an alternative that would have it both ways. Create a set of pay "subscription only" servers. Voila, you got a playground for just those who are dedicated, and still plenty of sales for the dev's and normal servers.

But then again, that's basically what the CRC is for, but without the cost. I guess my follow up question would be, is the CRC not serving this need of having servers limited only to people who have proven themselves serious? Or is the problem that there are just not enough serious racers to have enough servers with enough people online all the time?

[L(Oo)ney]

No amount of forced tests will force a bad driver to become better, they'll just find an easier way around it, like they did with the credit system.

"Hey, if you give all the ai a crap set, they wont move. Now just casually drive round and win, and unlock the gtt.."

I obviously voted No.

[Theafro]

i still think we need something to really make the point about good driving, i'm suggesting that the test's be more like missions, with little stops to point out some flags 'n stuff on the way. to a motorsport nut, all this stuff is pretty obvios, but to a young noob it's just stuff that keeps flashing up in the middle of their game.

make 'em run a 'race' but with a scripted series of incidents and flags that HAVE to be understood and heeded in order to pass, not based on how fast you are, just that you understand what the flags mean, and can avoid trouble before it starts. the current tests are quite fun for a breif whille but soon get boring, I think something that would take about 10 mins to complete (less than one race worth!) and would give valuable emphasis on safety.

this might all sound a little off-putting but to be honest if it's organized properly we will only be putting off those who aren't prepared to take this at least a little seriously, (and besides, it's not quite as extreme as out pricing it - that'll only increase the level of crackers/cracks :))

[axus]

How about having a rating for the play in the connections list. This could be calculated based on completed tests in training that you do not necessarily have to have completed to race online, but this would show others that you may be inexperienced?

[Theafro]

It would mean that pro's stick to the pro servers, and noobs would stick to the noob servers. and i suppose it would mean that you end up racing against those of you're own ability. we wouldn't want it to get in the way of a players progress in LFS, but i think something like that would be more than acceptable. hmm this might turn out to be a good idea after all

[whendrix]

In S1 you needed a certain amount of credits to unlock the faster cars. That idea - in a way a driving test as is proposed here - was abandonned in S2. The question you need to ask is, are there now relatively more wreckers or people causing problems by irresponsable behaviour than in S1?

What were the reasons for leaving out the credit requirement in the first place?

Personally I don't like the idea of driving tests for several reasons.

I've been simracing now for 4 years and I would not be happy if I had to take a new driving test every time I want to unlock a car. It's almost as like you go and apply for a new job but to get accepted, you need to do all your high-school exams all over again.

Second of all, you cannot expect people who are new to simracing to learn everything, that took other people maybe years, in a simple driving test of 5 minutes. The AI model in LFS is just not sophisticated enough atm to actually replicate real human driving behaviour. Offline tests with AI are pretty useless imho.

We all were newbies once, we all made mistakes that probably pissed off other people at the time...

There isn't really that much you can do about it I'm afraid unless you join a serious league where people are screened before they can join the competition.

The only thing that can be used to eliminate wreckers from open servers, is a system of warnings and bans.

Wim

[axus]

In S1 you needed a certain amount of credits to unlock the faster cars. That idea - in a way a driving test as is proposed here - was abandonned in S2. The question you need to ask is, are there now relatively more wreckers or people causing problems by irresponsable behaviour than in S1?

What were the reasons for leaving out the credit requirement in the first place?

Personally I don't like the idea of driving tests for several reasons.

I've been simracing now for 4 years and I would not be happy if I had to take a new driving test every time I want to unlock a car. It's almost as like you go and apply for a new job but to get accepted, you need to do all your high-school exams all over again.

Second of all, you cannot expect people who are new to simracing to learn everything, that took other people maybe years, in a simple driving test of 5 minutes. The AI model in LFS is just not sophisticated enough atm to actually replicate real human driving behaviour. Offline tests with AI are pretty useless imho.

We all were newbies once, we all made mistakes that probably pissed off other people at the time...

There isn't really that much you can do about it I'm afraid unless you join a serious league where people are screened before they can join the competition.

The only thing that can be used to eliminate wreckers from open servers, is a system of warnings and bans.

Wim

We aren't talking about a huge test - simply a test whereby it is apparent that you would porgress further than causing accidents - ie. a lot of people online that do not know how to drive at all are pissed off about their lack of skill and their inability to progress and therefore the go and wreck others. A 5min test would do the job.

Also we won't be trying to teach the whole theory of racing with these tests, just the basics. Like in mathematics for example you cannot multiply before you can add. You cannot progress and find your racing line before you know what the racing line is and you cannot avoid another car if you do not know how to control a car under braking etc etc. We are talking about such tests that will teach you the basics of car control if you don't know them and esentially ensure that you can progress to the level of professional drivers as quickly as possible.

[Hahni]

Maybe the dev's could introduce a serveroption, which only allows players who reached laptimes within a specific percentage of the actual wr. Like the leagues do.

Then you can setup server for the experienced racer, but also open server for newcomers

Cheers

Hahni

[CI-Man]

Hi All

The thing that people seem to be missing is that most genuine newbies practice offline anyway. There are a lot of us newbies out there capable of taking the faster cars round a track online without crashing into someone and obeying certain racing rules. Why should myself and others be forced into taking lessons when the option is there for us to learn offline and under our own supervision. Lets be blunt here, games where you constantly have to jump through hoops and complete tasks with pin point accuracey before you can play properly are shit.
Another thing is its becoming a little insulting to see we are all being treated as 'noobs and wreckers'. Like i said in my other post its ashame that the more of these posts i read the more i can see there is an element of "them and us" "experienced vs inexperienced". I am beginning to wonder wether i should of taken note of Steve Wand's review afterall. I am sure if he is still reading this and other posts like it he has a smug grin on his face right now.
Another thing is i just cannot beleive that all the pro's out there started playing like Pro's as soon as they plugged the wheel in. Surely you all started off and worked your way up and surely you all crashed a few times by accident. I wish i had £1 for everytime i have seen crashes at turn 1 and elswhere in car racing caused by drivers making mistakes or loosing their heads, or am i watching different races to everyone else ?
On a final note you all harp on about realism in LFS but your not prepared to accept that genuine accidents will happen in races :D ? we are not all robots and forcing people to take tests to play the game online will not prevent accidents. All it will mean is new people will not be prepared to buy the game and new developments will slow down or stop due to lack of funds.

Just permanently ban the real ars* holes, stop being nice to them and giving them chances because they sware on mommy's life they will change. Then leave the rest of us genuine newbies to get on quietly and learn the game ourselves.

Kindest Regards Tim

[Racer Y]

No amount of forced tests will force a bad driver to become better, they'll just find an easier way around it, like they did with the credit system.

"Hey, if you give all the ai a crap set, they wont move. Now just casually drive round and win, and unlock the gtt.."

I obviously voted No.

Ditto... well almost....
The problem I have with this idea for testing, is that it is a driving test.
People would either do as looney said or if you did a timed thinge with penalizing cones and whatnot, the disturbed types would only race that much more aggresive and wreckless and sooner or later they will pass that test anyways and will still drive like that even more because that's what they did to pass the test in the first place.
Either that or to make it hard enough to be effective, it would limit the game to just people like Vykos and Flotch being able to play :)


What about a written exam? Don't you have to take a written exam to drive
a race car? You do for a driver's license.
One hundred questions - 90% or better to pass. One hundred questions? I can't come up with that many, but it'd have to be a lot of questions.
If not, people would still be able to cheat by writing the answers on their arms before they took the test ;)

[axus]

Hi All

The thing that people seem to be missing is that most genuine newbies practice offline anyway. There are a lot of us newbies out there capable of taking the faster cars round a track online without crashing into someone and obeying certain racing rules. Why should myself and others be forced into taking lessons when the option is there for us to learn offline and under our own supervision. Lets be blunt here, games where you constantly have to jump through hoops and complete tasks with pin point accuracey before you can play properly are shit.
Another thing is its becoming a little insulting to see we are all being treated as 'noobs and wreckers'. Like i said in my other post its ashame that the more of these posts i read the more i can see there is an element of "them and us" "experienced vs inexperienced". I am beginning to wonder wether i should of taken note of Steve Wand's review afterall. I am sure if he is still reading this and other posts like it he has a smug grin on his face right now.
Another thing is i just cannot beleive that all the pro's out there started playing like Pro's as soon as they plugged the wheel in. Surely you all started off and worked your way up and surely you all crashed a few times by accident. I wish i had £1 for everytime i have seen crashes at turn 1 and elswhere in car racing caused by drivers making mistakes or loosing their heads, or am i watching different races to everyone else ?
On a final note you all harp on about realism in LFS but your not prepared to accept that genuine accidents will happen in races :D ? we are not all robots and forcing people to take tests to play the game online will not prevent accidents. All it will mean is new people will not be prepared to buy the game and new developments will slow down or stop due to lack of funds.

Just permanently ban the real ars* holes, stop being nice to them and giving them chances because they sware on mommy's life they will change. Then leave the rest of us genuine newbies to get on quietly and learn the game ourselves.

Kindest Regards Tim

I'll say it slowly one last time. The tests should be designed to seperate the wreckers from the genuine newbies, not the pro's from the beginners. Happy?

[mkinnov8]

Ok, the following responce is from the CRC Co-Director Stoney and the Staff Co-Ordinator Rogue...

Firstly may I re-state that in June 2005, the CRC changed hands, everything that was old has gone, we are a totally new organistation with different targets etc... We re-opened on the 24th July 2005 and we have been operating strongly ever since.

I've thought about doing this. Say, offering a guaranteed slot on a subscription server for £14/year or whatever, just enough to pay for a server per 20 members and a bit left over to keep a members-only website up for the passwords. I actually suggested it to the CRC dudes a few months back and offered to build a website with the processes required to organise and police it, but when they asked their members, nobody was interested.

I remember you suggesting the idea etc, at the time we had the resources to build the websites etc that would have been needed, and I have always been a supporter of this Guaranteed slot idea. Yes when we initially polled on it the idea did sink, but I think with a little more research it could be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdether
But then again, that's basically what the CRC is for, but without the cost. I guess my follow up question would be, is the CRC not serving this need of having servers limited only to people who have proven themselves serious?


The CRC is here to provide a clean place for people to race, we have one private server and two public ones. One is on a testing deal, we get the server free as long as there are people using it. At this time, we cannot risk this server not being used, and so we are keeping it public. The other 23 man server will be used for events etc, so sometimes this will be public, sometimes private. And we do have a private server. I am not willing to go into much more detail in public regarding our servers... What I will say is this.. If the community thinks the CRC is not doing its job, come to the website, register and tell us what we should be doing, tell us that this that and the other is wrong, come and show us how to do it... I cannot afford to rent servers at this time. If there is some kind soul that wants to donate, please, please do so, its not for us personally, its for the community.

I don't represent the CRC or anything, but from what I can gather when they've tried making their servers private they're always empty. So now they're public and, as anybody who was on there last night will tell you, it's just the same as any other server when the admins aren't around.

Yes, as mentioned, we are in a situation where we are providing one Private server 24/7. We are also placing more admins into the servers when possible, mainly at busy times. There is nothin more we can do about this at this time until we get some new staff that dont mind the hard work that is running the CRC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdether
Or is the problem that there are just not enough serious racers to have enough servers with enough people online all the time?



Maybe you're right.

I think this is wrong, there are plenty of Clean Dedicated racers out there, just getting them all online at the same time is the problem.

But with the introduction of the CRC Challenge Cup, and more organised events from the CRC, we are doing what we can on the limited budget (nothing) with the few members of dedicated staff we now have.

Getting back to the main topic of this thread, Driving tests... A Driving School was something that was always thought about in the old CRC Days, so the idea is nothing new. We are launching soon, there will be driving lessons ranging from the basic skills up to racing skills and real Driving Tests....

I understand you guys want this now, we will be launched at the end of this week. Thanks for your support.

[Racer Y]

Hi All

The thing that people seem to be missing is that most genuine newbies practice offline anyway. There are a lot of us newbies out there capable of taking the faster cars round a track online without crashing into someone and obeying certain racing rules. Why should myself and others be forced into taking lessons when the option is there for us to learn offline and under our own supervision. Lets be blunt here, games where you constantly have to jump through hoops and complete tasks with pin point accuracey before you can play properly are shit.
Another thing is its becoming a little insulting to see we are all being treated as 'noobs and wreckers'. Like i said in my other post its ashame that the more of these posts i read the more i can see there is an element of "them and us" "experienced vs inexperienced". I am beginning to wonder wether i should of taken note of Steve Wand's review afterall. I am sure if he is still reading this and other posts like it he has a smug grin on his face right now.
Another thing is i just cannot beleive that all the pro's out there started playing like Pro's as soon as they plugged the wheel in. Surely you all started off and worked your way up and surely you all crashed a few times by accident. I wish i had £1 for everytime i have seen crashes at turn 1 and elswhere in car racing caused by drivers making mistakes or loosing their heads, or am i watching different races to everyone else ?
On a final note you all harp on about realism in LFS but your not prepared to accept that genuine accidents will happen in races :D ? we are not all robots and forcing people to take tests to play the game online will not prevent accidents. All it will mean is new people will not be prepared to buy the game and new developments will slow down or stop due to lack of funds.

Just permanently ban the real ars* holes, stop being nice to them and giving them chances because they sware on mommy's life they will change. Then leave the rest of us genuine newbies to get on quietly and learn the game ourselves.

Kindest Regards Tim


Yeah, your right. it does seem that way. it also seems to be a knee jerk reaction to something that IMO is working itself out on it's own. There aren't nearly as many wreckers and morons as there was right after the release.
I mean it's still happening, but not as bad.

But also Tim, You got to understand. All the people that started LFS after S-2 got all the cars... boom right there. The "elitists" lol we
had to wait like two years or more to be able to play with those cars. we could've took whatever test and it wouldn't have mattered. So yeah, when I stopped and thought about it, it kinda irritates me :P

And with everyone else, I imagine it's like Finally! something FAST! and their skills were finally honed down enough to be able to use the newer, faster cars
they way they were intended. They get in a gtr race on the new track, after MONTHS of waiting. But wait! little Johnny with ADD is there. His parents finally made that BIG FIRST TIME INTERNET purchase. They got johnny LFS as an alternative to counterstrilke at the recommendation of his Psycologist.
So yeah, those "elitists" they're gonna be a little pissed :)

Another thing Tim, how do you feel about races with more restarts than laps?
You're right alot of those accidents were just that. Accidents. But come on,
it's still a pain. What if there was a way to minimize them?

One last thing. Bringing up that God forsaken article or the blasphemous
author that wrote it is considered Heresy. Don't do that plz :)

[sdether]

The CRC is here to provide a clean place for people to race, we have one private server and two public ones. One is on a testing deal, we get the server free as long as there are people using it. At this time, we cannot risk this server not being used, and so we are keeping it public. The other 23 man server will be used for events etc, so sometimes this will be public, sometimes private. And we do have a private server. I am not willing to go into much more detail in public regarding our servers... What I will say is this.. If the community thinks the CRC is not doing its job, come to the website, register and tell us what we should be doing, tell us that this that and the other is wrong, come and show us how to do it... I cannot afford to rent servers at this time. If there is some kind soul that wants to donate, please, please do so, its not for us personally, its for the community.


I was not trying to criticise the CRC, just wanted to point out that if you guys can't keep private servers full, maybe a pay server wasn't a usable solution. But if the CRC cannot afford to own private servers, then maybe the pay-to-play server idea is something that would work?

There do seem to be plenty of serious racers, just not when they go online without prior organization. Events are great, but i'm willing to bet that many of us generally have to go for pick-up games when we have time. Personally, between work and family, I'm lucky if i get an hour late at night to do some racing, so I look for the best server then.

Of course, I don't know if things are worse other places and i've been lucky, or maybe i'm too oblivious to notice, but while there are few servers with people around during my time to race (US West Coast, usually 10-mighnight), I have had very good experiences online. There's almost always an AS National GTR race going with 5-10 people and aside from mistakes, everyone seems to be driving cleanly. Maybe i'm the noob that this thread is about -- nobody's complained to me, but I am usually the slow guy :D

[ATC Rogue]

I thought I'd add a few things to what Stoney has already mentioned. The new CRC opened not long ago and in my opinion has accomplished quite a lot, however with a limited number of staff that have done so much work and continue to do so everyday. Also due to the lack of staff we also have the problem of not being able to man the servers 24/7 which causes the noob effect at times. I have to say that there are a hell of a lot of good clean racers out there but it only takes one bad egg to spoil a race. At the moment CRC is advertising positions on the admin team so if you have any website skills or just think you can bring something to CRC that we are missing then please apply.

Thanx.

ATC Rogue CRC - Staff Co-Ordinator / Complaints Manager

[shockman]

Hello everyone,

the idea of tests has some positive points. Not much, but some. First of all, I think that there is enough material on the internet which explains the basics of driving. That's how I did it when I started with GPL 6 years ago. And NO test will get rid of wreckers, as they may pass them easily and ruin the races anyway. And no 5 minute test can teach you what some people learn for months or years. I am no "world champion" and it took me a while to get used to the driving style needed to race a car. Yes, I know, practice offline, learn the stuff and then take a 5 min test, but then you have a question of, WHAT that test should be about to be able to really test your abilities. In the end, the LFS userbase would suffer as a lot of people would be discouraged by such system. And for sure nobody wants devs to have lower income just because of some general racing test right?
AFAIK, the only solution here is to join a decent league. In any league people are motivated to have a good race, naturally, mistakes happen as in any type of competition, but more/less everyone know what he/she is doing. Public servers are gonna be what they are - public. You will never know against whom you are gonna be driving. I still remember the old days of GPL, where everyone knew how to drive a race car, but still there was a wreck in T1 in almost every pickup race. But, nobody was raising the question of "lets have a test here", because in this case, it was about patience... And that cannot be "tested" so easily ;)
In the end, may be I am wrong, but that is how I see this question of tests.

Cheers,

[CI-Man]

I'll say it slowly one last time. The tests should be designed to seperate the wreckers from the genuine newbies, not the pro's from the beginners. Happy?

Hi Axus / All

I shall say this slowly one last time too, maybe you should read other peoples contributions to this thread and now read mine properly.
Try and see it from the point of view of a newbie and imagine what it feels like to read some of the oppinions of the Pro's on newbies in this thread. The fact that we should all pass tests before we can join in is not very welcoming to newbies. Its also hard as a newbie not to feel slightly belittled when you read some of the posts in this thread. I also do not beleive people should have to pass tests to gain the full features of a game they have paid money for. I dont expect to pay £24 for a game that is predominantly played online only to find i have to pass tests to unlock the fast cars for online racing.

So what i have been trying to say all along is instead of making everyone's gaming experience harder with more tests just make the idiots gaming experience harder. Then accept that accidents will happen and people will crash newbies or pro's alike. Because from what it looks like people still think that all newbies are just another form of wrecker.

Kindest Regards Tim

[axus]

Hi Axus / All

I shall say this slowly one last time too, maybe you should read other peoples contributions to this thread and now read mine properly.
Try and see it from the point of view of a newbie and imagine what it feels like to read some of the oppinions of the Pro's on newbies in this thread. The fact that we should all pass tests before we can join in is not very welcoming to newbies. Its also hard as a newbie not to feel slightly belittled when you read some of the posts in this thread. I also do not beleive people should have to pass tests to gain the full features of a game they have paid money for. I dont expect to pay £24 for a game that is predominantly played online only to find i have to pass tests to unlock the fast cars for online racing.

So what i have been trying to say all along is instead of making everyone's gaming experience harder with more tests just make the idiots gaming experience harder. Then accept that accidents will happen and people will crash newbies or pro's alike. Because from what it looks like people still think that all newbies are just another form of wrecker.

Kindest Regards Tim

Look, I am genearlly glad to help a beginner with advice online if they are struggling and so on... but the point I'm trying to make is that there are newbies (beginners to racing who want to co-operate and learn to race properly as fast as possible) and idiots (people that want to ruin others' fun). Perhaps this should be implemented in the demo only then, as wreckers would be unable to pass tests and therefore be completely discouraged from ever buying the full version. The problem is that some newbies will see this as something against them and not agains the wreckers and be discouraged from buying the game too and this would have an impact on sales.

[Theafro]

a test won't get rid of wreckers correct, and it will discourage some noobs, but to be honest it'll only discourage those who don't wish to progress with the game.

Iv'e NEVER said i didn't like noobs! in fact i'm still not all that far from noob status myself. BUT i've spent the bast part of 18 months playing this game and once you've done a couple of thousand miles you've seen the difference between a noob and a wanker, it's the wanker's with no respect, and no intelligence that we should be concentrating on.

if we develop an 'Us Vs Them' attitude then we'll only end up lonely online :)

oh and the test would be to get onto PRO or QUICK servers, you can still pay your £24 and drive all the cars and all the tracks, you just won't be allowed into a pro server until you have a professional attitude.

I personally don't care how fast you are, just if you're enjoyable company to drive with, THAT is the ONLY thing that matters IMHO :)

[T.K.Jode]

I made a suggestion back on RSC a while back, and I think it was somewhat regarded as a pretty decent idea for solving the wrecker problem:

I personally think that a racer's reputation should be recorded, the same way Personal Bests are. When you hit another car during a race, your reputation should drop (proportional to the amount of damage you caused).

I think the receiving end should have the option to forgive the incident, if it was indeed a genuine mistake (much like BattleField 2's team killing forgive/punish system). If the player chooses to punish, their reputation takes a hit.

When your rep drops below a certain point, you must race cleanly offline to regain your reputation.

Repeat offenders should be flagged and reviewed... if their rep drops enough times, it would make sense to revoke their license.

Any thoughts?

[Boris Lozac]

YES, there is a difference beatween new drivers, and new idiot drivers!!
I don't know why are you guys finding yourself offended?? As long as you are fair driver, and want to learn the game, and you are interested in driving/racing, then you know that we are not talking about you, but the IDIOTS, who park in the line, people who have blinking BLUE FLAG all over the screen, and yet they go into pushing with you, like he is first, and i am second?! People who drive in the wrong way, people who can't for 10 restarts, drive at least one race, NORMALY in the T1, people who don't look left, right, or behind.. that sort of people we are talking about..

[axus]

That's a good idea there, Theafro, restrict access to certain servers and in order to gain access to them you have to spend all of 10 minutes of your (extremely valuable) life (*gasp*) to gain access to them. They should not be called PRO or QUICK IMHO because that would lead to people thinking that we are trying to seperate Professional drivers from beginners (which is not at all the point as many people have tried to explain). Perhaps CLEAN... or something like that...

[ajp71]

Maybe the dev's could introduce a serveroption, which only allows players who reached laptimes within a specific percentage of the actual wr. Like the leagues do.

Then you can setup server for the experienced racer, but also open server for newcomers

Cheers

Hahni

Little reflection on racing capability.

[bLaCk VaMpIrE]

i think it would be better if you do a test for one class, because for each car to do the lessons would be boring...
... because if you can drive the XFR it should not be a problem to learn the UFR, or take the LX6 and its class.

[mkinnov8]

Two things...

Firstly, who said anything about having to pass a test to unlock the faster cars? hmmm, this is not the point of this thread, most of us are simply saying that if Tests were provided, its more of a confidence thing to see that another driver has passed (to a cirtain level) a test that shows they are capable of driving a car on the limit without having to worry about losing it...Or something along those lines.

Second, I think the general driver reputation thing is a bad idea, it would seperate drivers and restrict the busy servers. It would put a lot of people out / off racing online and the community would become segrigated (sorry for the spelling)!!

Passing a lesson, or a test, to end up with a Licence to say that you are a good, safe, clean driver of that car (class) etc, is a good alternative. We are not saying that people should take these tests etc, but I think (normally), if a driver sees another driver with a CRC tag (for example), they might worry less about the chances of that driver taking them out...

Thats a somewhat personal view of things, sorry if it doesnt make much sense, not much does at 5.05AM!!

[jmkz]

I don't agree at all;

I did some 20 laps with FOX in single player before going online for the first time ever in S2, and although the first few races I had seen quite a share of blue flags, I did not cause havoc or be a pain in the *ss.

after 5 races I was able to get into the top 10 each race, and improved more and more. Don't see the need to play against AI in single player first before I get the option to race any car online.

GT4 has these license tests, but I must say that these are a pain in the *ss :p

[axus]

Firstly, who said anything about having to pass a test to unlock the faster cars? hmmm, this is not the point of this thread

Errr dude, the topic of the thread is "OK then, so who wants a driving test for faster cars? (showthread.php?p=15873#post15873)" so maybe you really need to go to bed.

[DasKlee]

I'll say it slowly one last time. The tests should be designed to seperate the wreckers from the genuine newbies, not the pro's from the beginners. Happy?

you can't seperate a wrecker with a test - a wrecker like most of us use the word wrecks because he thinks it'S fun
so if someone wants to drive the wrong way, loves to take out all the cars trying to lap him and looks forward to full speed T1 crashing, there is no test in the world that will prevent him from doing so...

you can only separate good/experienced drivers from newcomers with a driving test - and you're putting off a large percentage of these newbies by that

you'll also turn off a lot of the newcomers from different sims liek GPL/GTR/rFactor/GP4/F1C... because a lot of people with a 3 or 4 year simracing career do not like forced tests to prove their ability to race online. they've proven it a thousand times with other sims

if i want tests, i go and buy GT4 - i bought S1 and then S2 when it came out, because i wanted an online racing sim and no offline driving test...

the possibility to make some host settings like the PB-percentage from the WR needed to join (offer the server host to chose a number between 100 and 120% or set it to 0% for no limit) would be a great way to filter - maybe another possibility would be to offer another host filter - like minimum distance driven in a certain car or on a certain track online

the driving tests from my point of view will make the game worse instead of better, if you force anyone to take them

if you want to teach racing rules, make a little screen after or before the account unlock in LfS where the basic rules (blue flag, yellow flag, some hints for turn 1 ...) will be shown and which stays on screen for forced 45 seconds - this could help much more than any test

[Shotglass]

the possibility to make some host settings like the PB-percentage from the WR needed to join (offer the server host to chose a number between 100 and 120% or set it to 0% for no limit) would be a great way to filter - maybe another possibility would be to offer another host filter - like minimum distance driven in a certain car or on a certain track online

so how would that work if you want to race a certain car/track combination for the first time so there is no pb for that combination in your lfsworld profile ?

youd get blocked by the server even though you either have practiced that combination until you got within a few seconds of the wr time or you know that track and that car in and out but you just didnt have time to combine that knowledge yet

[DasKlee]

so how would that work if you want to race a certain car/track combination for the first time so there is no pb for that combination in your lfsworld profile ?

look at the number of servers with absolutely no filters at all - around 50% of the servers right now accept all cars - those are the servers, where all is allowed and the host didn't take time or didn't want to think about any filters. and he probably won't do that in the future

and there's still the option to host a game for one or two laps to get your first lap online - or in other words, to qualify for a server with required PB

[Shotglass]

look at the number of servers with absolutely no filters at all - around 50% of the servers right now accept all cars - those are the servers, where all is allowed and the host didn't take time or didn't want to think about any filters. and he probably won't do that in the future

but those are the kind of servers that newbies with common sense (ie the ones you want to seperate from the wreckes) will avoid anyway ...

and there's still the option to host a game for one or two laps to get your first lap online - or in other words, to qualify for a server with required PB

so newbies that want do drive clean and experienced drivers that either have a sim background other than lfs or that havent raced that combination online yet will have to jump through hoops just to get that good clean race they deserve ?

and what would happen if the track changed or the driver switches to another car that he hasnt raced on that track yet ? autokick ?

[mkinnov8]

Errr dude, the topic of the thread is "OK then, so who wants a driving test for faster cars? (http://showthread.php?p=15873#post15873)" so maybe you really need to go to bed.

Err dude, Open up lfs and tell me if you need to pass a test to access the faster car? No...Didnt think so, which is why I posted what I did...I may have been tired, but not stupid.

The point I was making was that unlike some other games, you dont HAVE to do a test to drive a faster car, we just wanted to provide the option to.

Thanks

[DasKlee]

so newbies that want do drive clean and experienced drivers that either have a sim background other than lfs or that havent raced that combination online yet will have to jump through hoops just to get that good clean race they deserve ?

and what would happen if the track changed or the driver switches to another car that he hasnt raced on that track yet ? autokick ?

like i said - a serverside option - this leaves plenty of room for unfiltered racing and the ammount of additional tasks required to do before the player can join are much less than forced driving tests - for the experienced driver, it's one or two laps around his desired track to make it into the 115 or 120% mark - and if some server-hosts set their mark to 107%, they do not want new/inexperienced drivers (like i would call myself as well) which isn't a problem in my eyes. i don't want to race on pro-only servers where i end up last and get flamed because of being slower, being a newbie and so on

and about the trackchanging - do you remember S1 with the unlocks? and what happened if a server had the racemanager track-changer running with forced cars on certain tracks? this wouldn't be any different... you'd receive a message that you're not able to chose the track/car combination and will be put in spectate..

i think this will be much better than actually forcing people to do the tests - there can't be a perfect solution, as long as people want to drive cars faster than they can control. i'd rather stick to the ones i can handle than going for the FO8 straight away - that'S why i almost never drove it...

it seems like a lot of self-titled pro-drivers want to get rid of us newcomers and inexperienced drivers. that'S sad, but i'd rather not be able to join certain 'elite' servers, than being forced to take boring tests

[Chris_Kerry]

Having just read the whole thread, it's obvious to me their are pro's and con's of every suggestion being made with regards to making LFS a better environment to play in and as close to "real life" racing as possible. The game is a simulator, I think that the program achieves this title very well. Colours in names and a leaderboard in the bottom right hand corner doesn't make this game arcady, in fact it's just taking advantage of the resources that are avaliable to you. Have them if you want - take them off if you don't. To suggest that this is a problem behind the rising number of the type of racer playing LFS who enjoys playing "dirty" / "wrecking" is a long way of the mark. Let's get this straight there are i'd say 4 types of racers playing this game:

Very quick racers who know the rules and how to play
Quick enough racers who know their capabilities and how to play
Slow Racers who know that they are slow and respect other drivers
Wreckers who don't have a clue full stop
I think we all know which one we want off our servers. Any one who cares about LFS and it's community will accept that not everyone is going to be within 1 second of each other so to disadvantage them would be unfair.

Here's a brief reaction to some of the point's raised in this thread:

Test's - These would have to be real racing type tests really challenging for the user, however would this detract would-be users from playing the game, even seasoned LFS users. I think it would have to be an extremely good version to pull it off. It would have to be revolutionary.

Would have to include practical and theory imo.

Credits - Anyone can set up a 3 car race with AI and bump their credits up. Not a good idea at all

Mileage - Purely oval racers anyone? :D

Experience Rating - The way this was suggested wouldn't work. A wrecker smashes you, how would the program recognise this was his fault or yours?

However if you based this on being rated by fellow S2 Licenced racers through LFSWorld not the game itself, it may work. This would involve being able to rate member on a scale of 1-10 depending on how you rate them as a driver. Using a Ratio System that people who have higher ratings, that when they rate another member there view means more than a noob's mate. I accept that this will have flaws but maybe an avenue to look down. Servers would have different rating values. E.g PRO servers, Intermediate and Beginner

Pay-to-play servers: Great Idea, but then what stops a little rich kid doshing out the cash to wreck. Also remember that not everyone lives with a money tree in their back garden. How can you guarentee lot's of racers are going to be online. I heard GTR use a similar system. Did this work.

Making the game more expensive: Tristan I like the idea behind it I really do. In order to play LFS properly I hav spent over £100 pounds with the game and the Momo Wheel. After making that investment I want to at least be good at it. So we could either raise the price of the game or run servers which are wheel only maybe....maybe not.

League Racing more prominent: LFS to introduce it's own league format i.e run it's own league. Everything would be based around the league. You would be recognised as say a lower league racer so you can only access servers to race with people who have a similar rating. As you win events/ get promoted, this alters the types of server you can go in.


If I spot anymore I will edit :)

Look around at how many good people there are in LFS, surely we can make something work. Oh and sorry if this post doesn't really link together very well, kinda got into a rant and kept going. :)

I don't mind getting flamed either :P

[Theafro]

aha were getting somwhere now, (i wish i could rename this thread too!)

it strikes me that most people are afraid of tests ingame, that's fair enough the tests in gt4 are a serious pain in the butt, and not REALLY all that imaginative. I think to base any tests on speed would be pretty unfair to a LOT of paying customers.

the option of a LFSworld ratings system would be a nice idea to explore, If it was as simple as logging on to LFSworld, highlighting a particular driver and then rating him.

Imagine if you will, you're online and sombody is being a prat, you could pop down to LFS world and give them a poor rating, it sounds like it could turn nasty but it should only affect their rating in a small way, although if there are LOADS of people rating them badly, then they're probably the type of person LFS can do without.
if each individual rating was only held for a month or so, if they decide to drive clean they would get their rating back to normal faily quickly.

i feel it would work both ways, should you feel you've had a great race with somebody then head to LFSw and bump up their rating.

introduce a filter when joining a server (obviosly the qualifying rating should be decided by that particular admin) and within a week or so you'll have the good more or less seperated from the bad.

the rating system is based purely on whether or not people like racing with you. speed is irrelevant, so a noob (as long as they're racing fair) will have no problems at all (hell, they probably won't even notice!)

if we all share ideas we may find a worthy solution that's good for all (but most importantly for LFS)

[Chris_Kerry]

I think the above post is pretty much how I thought of it to be honest, just my english skills aren't great :)

[Chris_Kerry]

I understand your point, all I'm saying is people forked out 24 quid for the game so If they are intent on wrecking they will pay 15 quid a year. If this idea was successful all the good players would be using the server leaving non-subscription ones empty. They would then pay anyway as even they wouldn't wreck in empty servers.

[Theafro]

we need a way to filter out the idiots who don't actually want to play the game properly, WITHOUT filtering out would be players.

i don't think it's quite right to ask £24 to play the game and then to find you've got to pay £15 just to play on decent servers, THAT will discourage more new players than anything. and if they will spend £24 on a game just to feck about with, they're probably gonna pay £15 just to 'beat' our new 'protection' system, i got a feeling they're sad enough to.

i'm kinda thinking that with a rating system that would be a real part of the game, would benefit us all, i mean if we're all concious of our personal rating, then we'll more than likely want to improve it. even a noob with a rating of 1 would like to improve it, and they will if they stay out of trouble. the finer points should be worked out to give a noob the benefit of the doubt so as not to penalize them for simply not knowing what was expected of them.

what about a system of rating where the better you're own personal rating the more effect it will have when rating somebody else, that means that even a whole team of 10-20 idiots with negative ratings wouldn't even be able to TOUCH a noob. maybee once your're rating goes negative you cannot rate others at all. although even the super-rated shouldn't be able to destroy any users rating in one go, it should take at least 10-20 ratings to make a real difference.

since it would only be for access to certain servers nobody ever really looses out, except the idiots of course. :)

[Chris_Kerry]

what about a system of rating where the better you're own personal rating the more effect it will have when rating somebody else, that means that even a whole team of 10-20 idiots with negative ratings wouldn't even be able to TOUCH a noob. maybee once your're rating goes negative you cannot rate others at all. although even the super-rated shouldn't be able to destroy any users rating in one go, it should take at least 10-20 ratings to make a real difference.

Is that an echo? :D

[Theafro]

not entierly, more of an 'extrusion' of the idea we've both got! :)

you could call it agreement if you like, but i'm not normally like that here :)

[Chris_Kerry]

When it comes to how much LFS costs I think this sums it up :D

Quote: [tsr.]Markko

Live for Speed S2 license: £24
New computer: £800
MOMO: £80
Internet: £30
Racing 20 other guys and beating every single last one of em: priceless

:D

[Gunn]

Imagine if you will, you're online and sombody is being a prat, you could pop down to LFS world and give them a poor rating...
Yes, you could also pop in and give him a poor rating even if he wasn't being a prat. It's probably best not to give disruptive types yet another system to wreak havok with.

If the community is so concerned with driving and racing standards of new racers then perhaps an adopt-a-rookie programme might ease the situation?

But regardless of where this is all going I think a racing manual is essential for this forum and perhaps for LFS as well. Newcomers and established racers alike should have information available on how to contest a race cleanly and within the normal rules of racing. Many racing incidents are from a lack of understanding, not from mailicious intent.

Additionally, if every one of you joined a league, or formed a league, organised racing would flourish. Good for all. :up:

[axus]

Err dude, Open up lfs and tell me if you need to pass a test to access the faster car? No...Didnt think so, which is why I posted what I did...I may have been tired, but not stupid.

The point I was making was that unlike some other games, you dont HAVE to do a test to drive a faster car, we just wanted to provide the option to.

Thanks

Well actualy the answer would be yes. Because I konw that the time I wasted (a whole 10 mins of my life) would be put to good use and once I passed the test I would be able to race in a more civilized environment.

[Hahni]

I think a rating system wouldnt be fair enough. It needs a lot of self-control not to vote with your first emotion. (I'm not sure you understand me, cause my english ... =) ). I mean sometimes you are very angry about a crash, but 5 min later you cool down and realize that shit happens sometimes.
Especially if you give different weights for different voters, better racers are not better human beings necessary.

LFS should stay open for everyone in its basics. The community can handle such a problem by itself. Of course we needs the options, thats why I suggested the serveroption in post above.

Idiots also exist in reality and LFS wants to be like reality =).

Cheers

Hahni

Edit: there are racing-rules in the manual already

[Gunn]

Edit: there are racing-rules in the manual alreadyMy LFS didn't come with a manual.

[axus]

My LFS didn't come with a manual.

Precisely what I have been getting at - therefore it is necessary to teach a newcomer the rules of online racing. Since the devs cannot sell a hardcopy manual with each game sold there should be something in the game that teaches it (in an interactive and enjoyable way preferably)

[Hahni]

My LFS didn't come with a manual.

You can find a manual under "links" on the LFS website

[Theafro]

a manual is only any good if you read it! Ignorance is the biggest problem, the type of racer that we're all against is simply the ignorant ones.
ignorant of the respect others are willing to give them, ignorant of the respect they should have for others, and ignorant of the basic good practice of driving.

some of my most enjoyable races have been while 'towing' a noob about, having started nice and easy i soon found after 10ish laps that we were actually racing, (he beat me once or twice too! :))

and some of the worst online experiences iv'e ever had was in a server full of peeps all thinking they were the 'nuts, but i promptly got banned as a wrecker for getting rear ended for avoiding an accident! many hours of grrrring followed :)

it just shows that in order to introduce something to help better driving standards. it would be very difficult not to discriminate against totally 'honest' drivers.

[ColeusRattus]

Perhaps the easiest way to introduce anyone to the subtileties (spelling? too lazy to check :P) of online racing would be a video tutorial. But to keep the filesize low, it could be something like a review where the most important rules are shown, and all with spoken explantions.

And you have to watch it mandatory, if you want to join your first online race. AT least, if it is not too long.

[jmkz]

very good idea ColeusRattus; a videotutorial with takes you on a tour of a race, including qualifying, race start, pits, yellow/blue flag, warnings and crash recovery.

with in-game videoclips and clear and descriptive text/commentary added it will be a very popular method to introduce anyone to the racing community. such a video would serve also for other games too :)

[mkinnov8]

Again, an idea being developed at CRC...geez you guys! JOIN THE CRC!!

lol

[jmkz]

link to CRC?

because CRC makes me think of Cross Rally ChampionShip by the makers of INSANE; quite a good game too, a very entertaining rally sim which works perfectly with the DFP 900° wheel

[Theafro]

Perhaps the easiest way to introduce anyone to the subtileties (spelling? too lazy to check :P) of online racing would be a video tutorial. But to keep the filesize low, it could be something like a review where the most important rules are shown, and all with spoken explantions.

And you have to watch it mandatory, if you want to join your first online race. AT least, if it is not too long.

kinda like maybee a scripted replay of a really cool looking race (top class GT's or something) to enhance the 'WOW i want to do THAT' factor,

it goes through the start procedure , with strategic pauses along the way with a caption and some good 'indicating graphics' overlaid to highlight what to look for, follow through t1 and all the accidents that might happen(cold tyres, etc), down the back straight (slipstream safety) all the way round and through the pit's should do ya,

make it an entertaining watch and people will want to emulate what they just saw an experienced LFS player do. ie avoid the accidents and be responsible.

hmmm might not work on some tho' :)