LFS driving Standards are in the pits [Archive]

Metalstar

11th September 2005, 11:54

I find it very easy to just ignore a stupid move that caused an accident, goto the pits and restart without getting too annoyed. But recently the standard of driving in lfs is at the lowest i have seen it even since the S1 demo days.

In nearly every race there is always someone ignoring blue flags or purposefully crashing into you.

I tried 4 different servers this morning and in each one, i had a back marker just smash into me without braking for a corner.

Voting doesnt help because if no one sees it they dont vote.

I suppose i just wanted to vent a bit on here about it, becuase it is annoying, but if this continues i will be switching away from LFS for good since it wont be enjoyable for people who want to have good races. What can we do about it?

GeForz

11th September 2005, 11:58

the devs could introduce a theoretical driving school beside the training lessons ingame and make them both mandatory to drive faster cars :D

Metalstar

11th September 2005, 12:00

That would help a bit in terms of less silly accidents or spins, but there are people who wait for you to pass them then just drive into you when you brake for the next corner.

it SHOULD NOT happen at all, there should be a reporting system that bans someones account for 60days or so if they get enough reports

ajp71

11th September 2005, 12:10

Who wants to take driving tests in a sim, this is not GT4. Done most of the training things and learnt nothing, the S1 cars tests are all the same and the S2 cars are full of worthless shit like learning to make a pitstop. I think a server option to ban keyboard players and novice crosses for drivers that have done less the a set number of laps on a car/track combination.

Bob Smith

11th September 2005, 12:16

Just to add: ajp71, I totally disagree with everything you just said. :)

ayrton senna 87

11th September 2005, 12:17

in the last 2 days i have had all of my races ruined (about 15)

i dont mind getting wrecked 1 race or even 5, but that just takes the piss

i really want driving tests, because in real life u need licences to move to higher levels of motorsport, so it is realistic to put licence tests in LFS

Metalstar

11th September 2005, 12:19

Banning keyboard drivers from certain servers isnt the answer, i have had plenty of good races with people using keyboards.

Most novices are actually ok, they will move when blue flagged etc.

The problem lies with complete morons who crash on purpose, normally picking on the lead cars. Its probably to make them feel better for not being able to drive.

This morning i shared my setup with a driver, i was leading on lap 11 and he just drove into the back of me without touching the brakes. the chat went like this

vMax.Metalstar : ??
(other guy) : F**K you!!!!!

That was nice of him after i helped him with a set.

Its these people that need banning, people making mistakes whilst racing is absoloutly fine, this kind of behaviour needs banning though, they bring no value to lfs whatsoever and im sure there are people who have left lfs because of things like this. I will be one of them if it doesnt improve.

ajp71

11th September 2005, 12:26

I think the whole concept of having to do driving tests puts off experienced racers from getting LFS, I haven't got rFactor yet because

a) I don't have time to unlock all the cars
b) wasn't impressed with the demo

I can understand why banning keyboard players would be a problem, but if they can race safely then there's something wrong big time in the physics engine, maybe in slower cars but not in the FO8/GTR are digital inputs safe.

Also if you should be able to take the driving tests of the more powerful cars straight away, if your not perfectly capable of driving a GTI in a straight line then you should be play GT4/Toca.

Seaweed

11th September 2005, 12:31

Takumi_Project.d

11th September 2005, 12:40

I think a liscense system would work well, if you cause an incident players in the server can vote against you after a certain number of votes you recieve a point on your liscense after recieving so many points your LFS account is suspended for a pre determined amount of time.

introduces potential for fowl play. what about that wrecker team? whats to stop some people like that ganging up and ruining people's licenses.

StanleyCarter

11th September 2005, 12:52

I would suggest looking for the right server at the right time, there's good racers around at some specific times/servers.

I don't race very often, but when I wanted to, I know where to look at, I usually "surf" around servers checking out the drivers, and when I feel that I'm comfortable with most of the drivers in that particular server (especially the ones with tags from popular teams), I'll join in for the race and have a lot of fun while learnt a lot from the pros.

I'm on drift servers a lot, wreckers, crashers or whatever, I've seen most of it and it's something pretty common to me, but I still enjoy the game a lot, from my experience, LFS still has a lot of great drivers, and when you get to meet up with them in one server, it's really worth it and the experience is very good.

There will always be wreckers or noobies in any online game IMO, and LFS is no exception, you just need to be well prepared to encounter these "incidents", and you'd be fine, at least I do.

Keep trying, LFS is fun.

Metalstar

11th September 2005, 12:58

I always check out whos on the server looking for tags from respected teams etc. and when i find a good server its brilliant.

The problem is, 1 person can join and ruin a race and we can do absoloutly nothing to stop them. 60 day bans etc would make them think twice. Although they are obviously already quite odd for paying £24 to race and then just wrecking people . . . .

fnac

11th September 2005, 13:10

intentional wreckers usually wreck and wait for being kicked or banned, or leave before it happens and go to another server to do it again.

the ban system is ok, but could be valid on all servers, not only the server where it has been voted.
something like the delay before re-attempting to join after too many clicks.

regarding a lock system, I dont think it will help because wrecking is a behavior issue, not a skill issue.
newbies or slower people should always be welcome to join, ask good setups and learn online from the others, as long as they follow flag and crc rules.
moreover, slower, lapped people is part of the race, and quite interesting to deal with.

even fastest people behavior can be questionable, no need to recall famous names (not talking about mistakes we always do - shit happens, but intentional, very aggressive driving).

the LFS community should work hard, and harder these times, to stay open and friendly, patiently waiting for wreckers to move away.
it will certainly happen since new sims appears every 6 months.
1 year ago, there were few wreckers in LFS S1, but *a lot* in GTR.
S2 is new, and more popular than S1, so morons are coming like flies on a halogen light.
rfactor, GTL and GTR2 will hopefully be their next target.

in the meantime, we should take it easy, public races are not league races or hotlapping or a ladder competition, just a good place to practice racing and have fun.

bty, are there plans to re-activate the ladder system?

ajp71

11th September 2005, 13:29

I think the CRC is a good idea and would join it or similar if it didn't involve 5 million threads and posts to register for it.

Seaweed

11th September 2005, 13:30

introduces potential for fowl play. what about that wrecker team? whats to stop some people like that ganging up and ruining people's licenses.

This wouldn't be a huge problem in my opinion if a team was to do this it wouldnt take long for a demo to get their accounts permanently banned when there's a possibility of foul play actually costing people something IE the £24 they paid for their S2 account I think you'll find there's much less of a problem. VAC showed this when it was originally released for half-life (before it was never updated and easilly beaten).

Kutt

13th September 2005, 21:01

I would just prefer to put "points" on a license for accidents/bans. The drivers license would follow you from server to server. Server admins could set minimums so that those with many points on their license could not join their server.

Those with points would be forced to work off their points through offline racing\tutorial\racing online cleanly on a no point restriction server.

A few things that come to mind...

Server admins should have the option to turn off point recording. If someone wants to try a little banger racing on one of the servers set up for that they should be able to.

Points could be recorded for contact with another car. This will obviously result in a lot of points being tallied. Therefore server admins should have a "only allow a safe driver setting", but not allow these settings be too stringent. You could have many of the relatively innocent being banned every time their is incidental contact. Points should decay as safe laps are driven.

Another option would be to put in a minimum total mileage driven on a certain track. In order to race online on a track you have to turn 50, 100, or what ever amount of pre determined laps to join a server.

A few of many things that could be done to help promote clean driving.

Zoltuger

13th September 2005, 23:04

i'm not sure if this already exists, but a system where trusted people are licenced admins could help: they can instaban anyone who does stupid things in any server they are in.

i also like the idea of minimum number of laps in some servers. obviously it would be unfair to do it in all servers tho, because some servers can be relativly casual and fun :)

Racer X NZ

14th September 2005, 05:52

Just my 5 cents worth, the CRC public servers are usually well policed and CRC are bringing in a ban system ( with proof ) for wreckers, if there's noone online just join and you'll find others will join you.:thumb:

DasKlee

14th September 2005, 06:12

mrodgers

14th September 2005, 11:36

if things would be really that bad, why is the CRC struggeling and calls for help? why aren't all of the complaing guys supporting the CRC?
I was wondering that myself. If enough folks who are tired of the wreckers would give CRC a try, it would be easier and easier for others that you know as good racers to join when they get tired of it, then as the community builds and folks start to make their servers CRC servers, there won't be many left that the wreckers could join and ruin it for everyone else. Everyone complained a while back that it is too hard to get voted into CRC, but in the S2 demo, it was easy and we had a wrecking team infiltrated into the CRC. It was nice though back in the demo after CRC was reestablished and I knew every night I was driving with CRC members. Fabulous racing and good times back then as I knew those of CRC membership and knew it would be good racing with them even if we were racing on public servers.

mkinnov8

14th September 2005, 13:06

al heeley

14th September 2005, 13:15

WTF!!!
How is banning us keyboard drivers the answer???
Grow Up!
Yes, this is clearly ridiculous! The trouble is, how could any elaborate set of rules and collision sensors detect the difference between a deliberate wrecker and a genuine error - which all of us will continue to make every now and then in the heat of the race. You could get yourself tied up in knots trying to get some system to detect the differences, IMO this approach is just not workable and would lead to a brand new set of complaints about unjustified penalties.

mkinnov8

14th September 2005, 13:16

actually the servers i drove on are in S2 aren't any worse than the servers i spent time on in S1 at the beginning of this year.
maybe that's because i don't drive the FO8 or on servers where the FO8 is allowed.
FO8's attract wreckers and FO8 drivers sometimes turn newbies into wreckers, because on an open server, where all cars are allowed and some newbies drive around in the xfg or uf1, most likely one or 2 FO8 guys join and start complaining about or even banning banning the 'slow roadblocks' on the track
sometimes they don't succeed with the voting and these slower players try to get revenge by messing up everyones race..

i've seen this quite a few times and after that i decided not to join FO8 servers anymore

like said numerous times before - a guy who wrecks because he wants to wreck will not stop because of any tests. it'S not that he doesn't know what is right or what is wrong, it's that he wants to do what is wrong for the fun of it

if things would be really that bad, why is the CRC struggeling and calls for help? why aren't all of the complaing guys supporting the CRC?

I keep hearing these reports of the CRC is struggling and doing badly and needs help...Being Owner and Co-Director this is news to me!

The CRC is a community project setup by and for the community. Without the support of the Community the CRC would not exist, and yes we need help as in we have a very small team running operations at the CRC, the previous CRC had a larger team, but in the time since launch on the 24th of July, we have achieved more that ever, the old CRC never had a website...We do.

DasKlee

14th September 2005, 13:23

I keep hearing these reports of the CRC is struggling and doing badly and needs help...Being Owner and Co-Director this is news to me!

The CRC is a community project setup by and for the community. Without the support of the Community the CRC would not exist, and yes we need help as in we have a very small team running operations at the CRC, the previous CRC had a larger team, but in the time since launch on the 24th of July, we have achieved more that ever, the old CRC never had a website...We do.

well i was mainly refering to the 'the CRC needs help' thread, which title keeps popping up now and then in the leagues menue here and over at RSC, so this wasn't meant as offence towards the CRC or as doubt of the sense of the CRC project.

i think the basic idea is great - and it changes things for the better for all of us, not just the members..

it was more directed towards the tons of 'pro racers' that start complaining about newcomers and want them to stay off their beloved servers. if all these complainers would join the CRC, their problems would be solved at once - no more wreckers

Billeh

14th September 2005, 13:27

was racing today on so classic and never got passed the chicane [about 8 race starts] without being whiped out by some clutz behind me not touching the breaks :(

mkinnov8

14th September 2005, 13:37

Yes, this is clearly ridiculous! The trouble is, how could any elaborate set of rules and collision sensors detect the difference between a deliberate wrecker and a genuine error - which all of us will continue to make every now and then in the heat of the race. You could get yourself tied up in knots trying to get some system to detect the differences, IMO this approach is just not workable and would lead to a brand new set of complaints about unjustified penalties.

Yes totally agree...There is another thread related to this at the moment..

The CRC is developing a Theoretical Test and a pratical tests at this time, cant say much at the moment...

mkinnov8

14th September 2005, 13:45

Using Keys is sometimes much more accurate for some tracks, the wider tracks with a wheel fair enough... But i have mostly been a keyboard racer, and not the fastest but I can hold it up with the leaders more often than not.

I think for the expereinced players it quite clear what makes a wreaker, therefore i dont think any kind of automotic detection system would work very well, I guess if it happens we will see how many complaints from normally good drivers who will be caught out with a slide or something and they will get the blame for "wreaking"....

When you think about it, A person who is there to wreak, it can be seen in most cases...

Racer Y

14th September 2005, 14:05

WTF!!!

How is banning us keyboard drivers the answer???

Grow Up!

Nah, we should ban the Wheel users... They're idiots!
Ever notice when they wreck, they always say, "sorry, my foot slipped"?
Yeah right... then when they're getting beat, they always bail and use some lamer excuse about how their stuff keeps losing calibration.
Then again what should we expect from a person that spends over $100
on a Driving aid in attempt to have an advantage over a K/B and still can't
win by cheating?

And What about them Mouse users? Huh? Yeah great, now we let them race - who knows maybe we'll start getting weirdos that want to use a stylus and tablet!

Please.... I figure the guy is probably trolling and I guess I'm feeding him too, but I do get tired of people bashing K/B mouse users. Before LFS, I never played a racing sim before. So I used a mouse for like I dunno 4-5- months before taking the plunge and getting a wheel.
I think this game's play value increases by leaps and bounds with a wheel
and that K/b'ers and Mouse users and joy pad users should try to do everything short of armed robbery to get one. Oh well, They have their reasons for not getting one. And with all the problems associated with wheels, mainly logitech and those...pedals, can you really blame them for not getting one?

Seriously, I don't really think people should be hassled about what type
controller they use. Besides, if you hit the "n" key when online, you'll notice a lot of those wreckers are using wheels anyways :)

Personally, being in between jobs ATM, i play this game alot. From my own experience, the amount of wreckers has dropped considerably since the
release of Alpha. There's still quite a few people that screw up in the first turn, just now I don't see 15 minutes of restarts for a 5 minute race as much. :)

DodgeRacer

14th September 2005, 14:07

Personally I think the system that nascar 2003 had was nearly perfect, for every race completed at a type of track you earned points towards it, and you could go to 'high experiance' servers, and there was a LPI, which calculated how many laps on average you go between each incident, of course that is a bit unfair a times because the incident isnt always your fault, but it really taught me to just chill out and learn to have serious amounts of patients, and eventually I made it up to the high experiance levels and it made the experiance a ton better. This could be implimented in LFS with a little modification, where you have to earn a certain amount of credits for each car to be able to go to the servers that required it, but you could still use all the cars you wanted in the open servers, so you get the best of both worlds.

But beyond that, currently there are a lot of people getting into LFS for the first time, just like when S1 came out, so there are goning to be a much larger amount of incidents than the later days of S1, but it'll only get better guys, trust me, in the mean time have patients and be carefull out there, and try not to let things boil over to the point where its not fun anymore. I try to hang out for a lap or two and let everyone get plenty far enough apart that eventually my speed will overcome them and i'll finish in the same spot as I would if I plowed through them in the begining :)

jmkz

14th September 2005, 14:42

I just bought S2 and a DFP wheel and have been racing online with the FOX, and although I was crashing into the walls more often than I wanted, I made sure to steer clear from others. I got many blue flags during my first races.

But after 5 days of racing 2 hours in the evening I'm able to stay with the leader in the same lap, without any crashing; The most dangerous part of every race is the start & 1st corner. I tend to stay behind and let the other fight for position through that first corner.

;)

mkinnov8

14th September 2005, 16:29

I think the CRC is a good idea and would join it or similar if it didn't involve 5 million threads and posts to register for it.

If you take a look at the CRC website you will see things have changed, the application process is much easier now.

Please make sure you are aware of your facts before posting!!

ayrton senna 87

14th September 2005, 17:07

tristancliffe

14th September 2005, 17:26

driving in a wide arc is bad, because if there is any wreckage, it will all go to the outside, where u are. braking too early in T1 is bad, because people will go into the back of you, causing a wreck. i cant remember the last time i got wrecked at braking for T1, because i go for gaps and dont brake at a rediculously early point.

But last week you kept getting wrecked at T2 or 3 instead! :P

I also rarely have a problem at T1. It's about thinking, braking with the pack (but not tooo late), and being aware of cars and spaces around you.

What I tend to 'get involved with' is the result of other people's crashes. Most people are so desperate to continue racing that they spin to the inside, and stop in the middle of the track, right in front of me. If they let the car spin, kept it away from other racers, turned around and carried on, they'd lose less time, and receive/cause less damage.

But in LFS it seems people hate being passed due to a mistake, and will swerve across the track to block anyone, regardless of the closing speed/damage/state of tyres. It's frustrating, but there is little you can do other than look ahead, pay attention to the yellow flag messages (they pop up for a reason), and drive around the problem. You'll lose less time driving around the spinner than driving into him

ayrton senna 87

14th September 2005, 18:20

lol tristan, i get the same thing, people stopping infront of me!

at T1 u cant have any tactics of leaving room or anything, u just have to go for it! some guy braking earlier and leaving room will be an obstruction, and cause other cars to swerve, taking out other cars or smash into the back of the slow guy causing a problem too.

some of the applicant CRC guys are the most dangerous drivers, and in real life would be put in a fence! they brake stupidly early to avoid hitting anyone, but cause a pile up behind them, and this is on just normal laps!

but deliberate non brakers cant really be avoided at starts, if u get hit, u get hit :shrug:

Stregone

14th September 2005, 19:10

Vain

14th September 2005, 19:34

What helped me a lot with "normal" accidents:
1. Spend a lot time watching to the sides and in the mirror.
Once you got a good feel for the brakes you only need your ears to brake and can keep your eyes on the other racers.
This also goes for real-life racing. A normal racer spends 60% of the time by looking into his mirrors, unless he is the unmortal god of racing, being 30 seconds in front of the second.
2. Expect attacks.
I know I'm not the fastest racer and others will propably try to brake later than me. They will usually try to take me over on the inside of the turn. That means their nose will hit my tail, spinning me around. But with a short view into the mirror I can see them and leave them their space until they realize that they aren't fast enough. Usually I can accelerate just as normal after their attempt, loosing nearly no time.
3. Concentrate on your enemy.
Don't look into the corner and try to manage it as good as possible, but look at the car closely in front of you and drive the corner as usual. That will propably save you the most time and give you more very exciting hunting-laps.

In general:
Most people don't realize that there is a difference between hotlapping and racing. In racing it isn't important who is faster. It is important who reaches the finish line first. With that in mind you can drive much safer and as a result reach better positions.

I am aware of the fact that most of you know this. But perhaps and only perhaps someone will think about it and will have more fun in LFS because of this. At least I have.

Vain

ayrton senna 87

14th September 2005, 19:57

Oh please, this isn't professional racing, you can't expect everyone on a public server to be on that level.
oops, sorry! :)
A normal racer spends 60% of his time looking by his mirrors...
that isnt true man, a racer may glance in his mirrors in a safe place e.g. on a straight at the same place every lap, but not that much, because if he is looking backwards, he isnt focussing on whats forwards, so he will be slow!

the key to being fast is being 'ahead of yourself', mentally driving a corner before u actually arrive, every corner, every lap, so u practise it in your sub-concious, which can process feedback many times faster than thinking about it.

As u can see im not the best at making my point :p but i hope some guys can see what i mean!

tristancliffe

14th September 2005, 19:58

Oh please, this isn't professional racing, you can't expect everyone on a public server to be on that level.

If you play a realistic racing simulation like LFS, then what do you aim for? Are most people out for a sunday drive? I like to think that EVERYONE who plays LFS more than 2 to 3 hours a week has the mentality of "I want to be the best racer in every aspect ever". They take into account the difference in speeds at T1, so brake a bit later on the first lap. I like to think that they look ahead, see the car they're gonna lap in two laps time and begin to plan their lapping manouveur. I like to think that if and when they have an accident (and we ALL do cos we don't have the fear of injury) they drive before, during, and after in the most sensible manner.

I'm obviously wrong, judging not only by the post on this forum, and this thread, but also by the attitude of 'racers' online.

I think the vast majority of people couldn't care less if the tyre physics are subtley tweaked, because they lack the skill, patience or sensitivity to notice. There is a good chance that most people here would be equally satisfied (if not more) by GT4 Online.

That is where I differ. Okay, so we all like to have the odd mess about. Thats why many servers are short, arcadey sprint races of 5 laps. And it's also why Banger Racing server(s) exist. But when I play LFS seriously (i.e. most of the times I load it tbh) I play with the "how can I better myself" attitude. Not just in terms of raw pace, although in many ways that was my first inspiration. We all want to be quick, even if some won't admit it. But I like to improve my feel for setup changes. Learn what the car is doing. I try to improve my overtaking (NOT as simple as just barrelling into a corner 10mph quicker than your opponent). I try to improve my lapping (and being lapped, as skill is involved there too believe it or not).

Maybe over the years I've been deluded by the flight sim scene. The hardcore sims attract hardcore players (X-Plane, MS FS series to some extent etc), and having a 'lazy attitude' to them isn't approved of. I wish racing games had the same snobbishness to them, as it would make everyones lives better. LFS, Netkar, Racer etc would attract the hardcore drivers amonst us. We would all be out there with the same mindset, and therefore have much better, cleaner races. The less bothered would play mass-market titles like GT4, rFactor (yes I said it!), GTR (yup, same again I'm afraid. It's a mass market title designed to sell, not amaze you with simulation attention to detail).

I know that I will be flamed for this (especially the bit about rFactor), but it is my (strong) opinion. Perhaps if the vast majority of you bucked up your ideas a bit, and began to enjoy LFS for what it is, a driving SIMULATOR, then we'd all get along a lot better.

Just my 200 cents

Fonnybone

14th September 2005, 20:17

If you take a look at the CRC website you will see things have changed, the application process is much easier now.

Please make sure you are aware of your facts before posting!!

Yes, but unfortunately, many of us have been put off permanently by the
whole thing. As honorable as it is to try to give CRC it's initial 'color', a
40 years old hag can never be a 16 years old virgin again :p

What IS unfortunate is how some spend so much effort explaining how things
are 'wrong' or 'suck', yet spend no effort on suggesting better ways or at
least trying to pinpoint problem areas. Anyone can complain, it takes 1 finger,
a keyboard and a forum, oh yeah, and an internet connection.

The online problem has been one that has plagued LFS since it's beginning.
The down-side is that LFS's increased popularity has only enforced this.
This isn't an LFS-specific thing though, from my experience, most online
ANYTHINGs are like this. Blame bored teenagers with no parental guidance,
blame TV, heck you can even blame George W. Bush (he said he's taking
responsibility, the flood gates have opened ! Sorry for the pun.). Either
way, it is a reality of online gaming and needs a much broader approach
than finding LFS specific 'cures' imo.

From my experience in this community, i doubt the LFS devs would take
the 'nazi-elite' approach and punish or keep people out. Making sales is
much higher on their list than parenting some unknown troublemaker ;)
Unless he starts annoying the devs personally, i doubt they'd turn on
a paying/potential customer. That's just my opinion though.

DasKlee

14th September 2005, 20:22

tristancliffe

14th September 2005, 20:39

@tristan

there'S a huge difference between professional racers and amateur racers and i don't mean online, i mean real life.
there are tons of racing series, where amateurs with limited talents drive every weekend. i don't know the racing scene in the UK but in germany, there are such amateur and some mixed am/pro races somewhere on the circuits every weekend.

so not every racer is a pro in real life on real racetracks in real races, so you can't demand the whole community to drive as if they were pros.

telling the not so professional guys that they should rather start playing GT4 (i know you didn't exactly say THAT but that was the basic core of what you said) is in my eyes completely wrong. it's like telling all those amateur drivers on the nordschleife in the VLN cup or racing in the youngtimer trophy or wherever 'you lack in skills, stop racing in real life, practice online or whit an RC car or whatever'

just because people aren't fast and maybe overcautious it doesn't mean that they do not love racing, do not enjoy a SIMULATION and prefer it because of it being realistic or that they would be better off playing a game instead...

to be serious about something doesn't automatically mean to be good at something...

Even the amateur races try to improve themselves. They are serious about their racing (or they wouldn't do it).

Speed has nothing to do with it. You can be a great racer and still be 4 seconds off the pace (you just race greatly with slower people).

What I meant was dedication. That's what we lack. People are blissfully unaware of the problems they cause by ambling around the track, not worried if they cause a pile up. If they cared, and actually thought about their racing and racecraft we wouldn't need threads like this in the first place.

I can cound the 'good overtakers' I know with my fingers, and the number of attentative lappee's on one hand (that I've come across). Doesn't that say something about the people using the sim.

We all have our strengths. Some are very good technically (setups). Others are good passers. Others have raw pace, whilst some have amazin consistency. But we should ALL try to improve ourselves in the area(s) where we are not strong.

For example. I am reasonably quick. At most tracks I can get to within a second or two of the WR within 10 laps. After 30 laps I am generally with half a second. I am, even if I do say so myself, very good at passing (that's my main strength). I am, howver, far too inconsistent, and make this worse trying to catch up for the original slip of concentration. If you had access to the team area of vMax's forum, you'll notice quite a number of threads by me moaning about my lack on consistency, and asking for suggestions on how to improve (without losing too much speed)). This is coming slowly now, as I am concentrating on it. I still make too many mistakes, but it's getting better everytime I play.

So there we are. I'm by no means perfect (in fact I'd consider myself high-average), but I AIM to be perfect. If I have a flaw (in this case consistency, but it might be I struggle at a particular corner whatever the car), then I work at the flaw until it is no longer the biggest flaw. Then I concentrate on the new biggest flaw.

The vast majority of people here don't do that. They play a bit. They can't overtake without causing an accident. But do they actively try to improve. Not really. Those that do are in a minority.

Michel 4AGE

14th September 2005, 20:48

Amen, couldn't agree more, very spot on.

Ball Bearing Turbo

14th September 2005, 21:25

@Tristan

I can understand where you are comming from especially in terms of dedication to improvement etc.... What about the folks that share that concept but have a very limited time budget? Truthfully I practice offline for eons before I venture online for some of the very reasons you mentioned.... But I have a wife & 2 kids and a job and other hobbies (well not really but other things have to get done hehe) and therefore cannot spend a pile of time moving towards perfection. My desire is to join the NAL after this season is done and that will provide the level of professionalism I am looking for also. This way I can practice all week & qualify then have some high quality racing at a scheduled time. More leagues would help this situation, but it doesn't do anything for the degree of professionalism in pickup races....

boxer

14th September 2005, 21:30

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, I cannot be arsed to read through 2 pages of huge posts :D

The rules in LFS should be made slightly more realistic. If you ignore a blue flag after a certain ammount of time, you should be penalised. Over-taking under yellows should also inflict a penalty. What exactly the penalties would be, im not sure, but surely it would encourage drivers to obey the flag rules?

sdether

14th September 2005, 22:10

The rules in LFS should be made slightly more realistic. If you ignore a blue flag after a certain ammount of time, you should be penalised. Over-taking under yellows should also inflict a penalty. What exactly the penalties would be, im not sure, but surely it would encourage drivers to obey the flag rules?

Actually that wouldn't be more realistic.

According to the General Competition Rules, the blue flag is an advisory flag only, and may be held stationary or waved. In all cases the overtaking car has the responsibility to make a safe pass.

Slower people should move off the line, especially when being lapped, but there is no inherent right for a passing car to get the line simply because they are faster.

I know there are a lot of people that think they have some sort of divine right to pass, but they don't. The passer is always responsible to pass safely. Now if the slower car is purposely blocking, they should get a black flag. But determining blocking versus just staying on their line is something that's unfortunately not yet in the realms of the flag system of LFS (or really, any game).

I've seen a lot of crashes that were caused by people agressively passing in a turn, where in IRL they wouldn't dare because of safety. And then they start screaming about the guy they crashed into not respecting the blue flag.

I'm not saying these are the only culprits. I've seen plenty of people "ambling around the track, not worried if they cause a pile up" like Tristan put it, but i've seen just as many people driving like hot lappers blaming every crash in a hair pin on someone not getting out of their way.

tristancliffe

14th September 2005, 22:14

Saved me typing the same thing. I'm an LFS newbie but I don't drive cars/tracks online if I don't know them, I observe flags, mirrors, other cars, etc. I do everything I can to not ruin other peoples' fun, and just because I'm not "dedicated" to being the best at a computer game that doesn't make me a hazard.

Then, by my definitions, you fall into the 'good' bracket. And I bet each time you play you (perhaps subconciously) say 'right, tonight I'm gonna beat that pb/not make mistakes/work out what castor does to the handling". You try to improve. Which is what I'm blathering on about.

It's the people that just drive about 'cos I like cars, innit. Oh s**t, was that another car. Ah well, I'll mess about somewhere else now' kinda guy.

Whilst thats an extreme, the 'casual messabouter' is in my experience on the increase, especially since S2 (maybe it's the damage?!). You will rarely have a good race with these kind of people. They are the people that don't care what happens (be it the odd wreck, not moving over, spend 45 minutes trying to make the damage as bad as possible whilst a race takes place). Wouldn't have more fun in a slightly less realistic game like GT4 (if was online). Or is the fact that you can cause vast amounts of damage what attracts the 'lesser' racers?

The last category, which is made up of a few moronic imbeciles, is the persistent, premeditated wrecker. They are few and far between (thank God/Scawen), but they exist. They will exist whether we encourage the hardcore only (and I include you and people like you in this thisnameistaken).

Basically, if you take your LFS doses seriously, whether you play for 20 minutes a week or 20 hours a week, then I have NO problems with you. If you play just because you like cars, but don't really care about the racing, or the racing mentality that you need, then kindly find something else to play (but keep paying for LFS, just don't play it :P).

tristancliffe

14th September 2005, 22:17

but i've seen just as many people driving like hot lappers blaming every crash in a hair pin on someone not getting out of their way.

Yes, there are certain people who won't admit a crash is EVER their fault. Thats irritating. But being [virtual] racing drivers, and with the spirit of competition, there will always be the dd incident where you both think the other person is at fault. Anyone from F1 drivers to people on motorways in real life have been known to blame someone for something regardless of what evidence is given to them.

boxer

15th September 2005, 01:16

Not workable in some cases unfortunately. You can run practically a whole race distance around the oval and never be caught by the guy the sim thinks is about to lap you. I suppose if you had an accident under yellow flags you could get black-flagged though. That would keep people's eyes open ;)

Yeah I see your point. Thing is, it's possible to change the parimeters so LFS will only recognise a blue-flag situation when the car's are much closer. They've set it to a large distance to give the guy a lap down enough time to think about it (but it's too long imo!)

Actually that wouldn't be more realistic.

lol are you denying penalties for those offences do not exist? How is it not more realistic?

mkinnov8

15th September 2005, 02:16

some of the applicant CRC guys are the most dangerous drivers, and in real life would be put in a fence! they brake stupidly early to avoid hitting anyone, but cause a pile up behind them, and this is on just normal laps!

I guess its time to start picking on groups of people now, but you will actually find that most CRC Applicants drive with the upmost respect to the track, other drivers and the Racing Rules.

This is really getting silly and off topic

The CRC Applicant Drivers are among the cleanest drivers out there, and it wouldn't hurt some of you more experienced drivers to either give them a chance or see how you do yourselves on the CRC Driving Tests

From most of these posts on the forum most of you dont even know you are no longer CRC members...

MarkMBT

15th September 2005, 07:31

I'ma CRC Applicant, and last night had a great time on a CRC server with CRC and non-CRC bods alike (at least I presume we weren't all CRC people). I sympathise with Tristan's point of view to an extent, but I think we all need to recognise that different people come to LFS with different aims and expectations, and as long as those are not deliberately disruptive there ought to be room for everyone from the hardcore to the casual. Tristan mentioned flight sims and their hardcore fans - the downside of that is the fans alienate both devs and noobs, driving away customers, meaning no-one creates flight sims anymore (I know ther's more to it than that, and some are still developing, but in general terms...)

I kinda resent the implication that just because I'm an applicant I'm dangerous BTW.

DasKlee

15th September 2005, 08:16

tristan, i agree with your reply. it sounded much less elitist than the original thread i was refering to.
you talk about ambitious drivers working to get better, you do not talk about skilled or unskilled anymore.. and you're completely right here...

i'm one of those unskilled ambitious drivers - i practiced for ages in S1 to break the 1:39.9 barrier on BL1 with the XFG and only started racing online on occupied public servers after that. running 1:39's or 1:38's in S1 (although it was harder than in S2) takes some more talented guys probably 3 or 4 laps with a decent setup - some have never made it because the lack even more talent than i do.

i try to get better, do practice ususally the first few laps offline or at least on an empty server or private server, where i do know all the other racers.

but still i am one of those that might be overcautious in T1 and breaks too early - so i would be one of these guys that is classified as unprofessional in the original post and that should better be playing GT4. now there are tons of guys like me. trying to get better on every lap and every track they run within their limits set by practice time and given talent and i do think that these guys belong into LfS as well as into racing in real life.

and there is no system that can decide if someone is willing to learn and to get better and makes a mistake or if he is just too stupid to follow rules and wants to take out others... the only way is to join private servers where you know all racers - that'S why i was talking about additional serverside filters, making it possible to decide as a host, if there are certain requirements needed for a racer to join. this way the host would decide if a certain amount of experience is needed or a certain speed level and the joining drivers would most likely find a server with pretty equal opponents

this can never be a general rule for the sim, since no statistc could see if a new driver without any online records is talented or not, is a wrecker or drives clean and so on - but i t could be very useful as a filter and would allow more people to join high-class-servers as the private server system

my thoughts were:

- online mileage as filter (at least xxxx miles driven online)
- PB's as filter (at least 1xx% of the WR as PB to join the server)
- finished races as filter (at least xxx finished races to join the server)
- online credits (at least xxxx credits to join the server)

usually deliberate wreckers do not finish races very often, bad drivers do, so not a perfect filter. PB'S are also not perfect, because a lot of ruthless drivers are very fast but a lot of cautious 'gentleman drivers' will never reach the PB filter, same goes for mileage or credits

but i think ALL suggestions would be better than forcing drivers to take offline tests just to drive a car online - look at the forced career mode of rfactor and how most of us called it - arcadey.. well these driving tests are exactly the same if they are forced...

RBSteve

15th September 2005, 10:20

It seems to me like there are a couple of different things being discussed at the same time in this thread. Wreckers, i.e. those who intentionally try to mess up other peoples fun, is a separate thing. I've only seen wreckers once in LFS so it's not a big deal to me.

More interesting is the discussion about people who screw up due to inexperience, attitude problems or whatever. This is not something that can be learned by any kind of licensing system, nor is it directly related to driver skill.

I am new to LFS, though I've been driving racing-sims for a long time. That means I am not particularly fast, yet. On the other hand I always try to drive clean. If I find myself in a crowd that is much faster than me, I'll let them by and do my own thing while trying not to screw up their race. I still enjoy driving with others, even if I can't beat them. If I didn't I'd be offline driving GTR. When I do find myself in a crowd that is at about my level, I race competitively. Of course I still screw up sometimes, when I do I apologize.

My point is that how quick you are around the track does not really have much to do with your respect for others, or lack thereof. That is an attitude and maturity issue. I often see fast drivers, much faster than me, who try to overtake in places where it is impossible to overtake for example. You don't see Schumie or Kimi do that in real life (but you do see Sato doing it).

Anyway, racing on open servers inevitably means that drivers with different skill level, of different levels of maturity and with different attitudes will be on the same track. Anyone who want super-clean racing where all the drivers are at the same skill level have to race on closed servers, there's just no way to enforce that on an open server.

Obviously the same thing applies to servers that allows any type of car. One does not have to be a genius to realize that a UF1 is going to appear almost stationary to someone driving a FO8. I guess servers that allow all cars have more in common with a real-life "track-day" where anyone can come and race their car, than with an organized competition. Track-day events require the drivers to prioritize everyones enjoyment over their own lap-times, yet some won't do that.

Sorry if I got sidetracked. But from what I've seen most people behave quite well in LFS. I've never got really pissed off at anyone and when people do annoy me I just pick a different server. I never got myself kicked or banned either. I 'm having fun and I do not think it is possible to regulate out all bad or stupid behaviour by any kind of automated rating system or by voting.

/Steve

RBSteve

15th September 2005, 11:25

Tristan, you wrote:

I like to think that EVERYONE who plays LFS more than 2 to 3 hours a week has the mentality of "I want to be the best racer in every aspect ever".

And a bit later you wrote:

Even the amateur races try to improve themselves. They are serious about their racing (or they wouldn't do it).

Speed has nothing to do with it. You can be a great racer and still be 4 seconds off the pace (you just race greatly with slower people).

What I meant was dedication. That's what we lack.

These two statements seem contradictory to me. The first implies that only super-competitive, type A personalites with the goal to kick everyone elses butt should play LFS and the rest should go do something else.

The second statement I read as you're asking for dedication to improving ones own skill, to attemt to continuously improve ones previous performace. The latter, of course, is possible even for the slowest driver alive.

The first statement is elitist, the second reflects more of a Zen attitude. Dramatically different. Que?

/Steve

tristancliffe

15th September 2005, 14:22

I wrote I like to think they are like that. Perhaps I should have written I wish, but it means the same thing basically.

I couldn't care less if you are the WR holder or 4 seconds of the pace (much slower and you should have a play offline first). But as long as you try, perhaps subconsiously, to get a bit better, or do something different to see if it works, then thats fine. But, in my experience, over half of the drivers in LFS don't care. They have no desire to get better (or perhaps they have the desire, but are too lazy to analyse the problem to overcome it).

Being the best racer doesn't necessarily mean winning every race. I mean working towards the goal of being perfect at overtaking, at hotlapping, at pitstops, at strategy.

I think if you look at my posts again you'll see that they are actually very similar. I'm not denying either are elitist. Sims ARE elitist, just like real life is. You don't get grannies in Formula One because they can't drive. So why do we get grannies in LFS so much? They can't drive. They can't get within a second of WR. They can't race without causing an accident. They can't even be lapped without causing an accident. They have no hope of ever getting in the top 3 of any race ever?

Why do they play? For the fun and satisfaction? Wuldn't they get a bit more satisfaction playing a slightly less realistic driving game, and actually achieving something? Or is it because GT4 (the slightly less realistic driving game I tend to use in my examples, but I'm not referring to the consoley nature as such) doesn't have damage. I really do think that part of LFS's 'problem' in S2 is the fact that idiots with burberry (aka Chavs) are attracted by damage.

DasKlee

15th September 2005, 14:44

well i don'T think sims are elitist - only some people whi drive them. as motorsport in general is not elitist.
there are tons of untalented drivers racing every weekend - and even in the FIA-GT series, there are drivers just not good, that bought themselves a cockpit, because they are dedicated racers

the further down you go, the more untalented drivers are on the track - having enough money lets you race in pretty fast classes without having huge talent

that's why i absolutely doubt that a sim should be only for the elite - if almost everybody can race in some series in real life (as long as he can afford it)

the ones unable to handle a car at the lowest level and unable to follow racing rules might lose their licenses in real life, but not the ones who are just slow and not able to keep up with the pace of the faster guys will still find a series, where they will be accepted. same should apply for LfS - if there'S a pro league/pro-sever as private server, that's ok. no one is forced to open up for slower guys - but on every public server and rookie league, there shouldn't be adiscussion at all about guys being cautious, breaking a little earlier than thought, taking strange lines through some turns and so on - as long as they try not to interfere with faster drivers, obey flags and do not drive reckless, these drivers should be welcome and not flamed online or in any community forum

RBSteve

15th September 2005, 14:48

I wrote I like to think they are like that. Perhaps I should have written I wish, but it means the same thing basically.
<snip>
I think if you look at my posts again you'll see that they are actually very similar. I'm not denying either are elitist. Sims ARE elitist, just like real life is. You don't get grannies in Formula One because they can't drive. So why do we get grannies in LFS so much? They can't drive. They can't get within a second of WR. They can't race without causing an accident. They can't even be lapped without causing an accident. They have no hope of ever getting in the top 3 of any race ever?

I did read back and I admit that I may have read more into your first post than I should've. If so, my bad, sorry.

However, I disagree that both posts are elitist. I don't think there's anything elitist about wanting to race with people who are taking the game seriously, who try to improve their skills and who show respect for others.

I can't really see what possible harm a slow but careful and respectful driver could do on an open server? If "granny" enjoys driving LFS, if "she" is seconds after pace but let faster drivers have their space and if she can control the car well enough not to screw things up for everyone else, I can't see the problem with her driving.
I certainly do not consider "her" to be a bigger problem than a fast driver with a world record hotlap that try to pass me in a f*cking chicane, where not even Michael Schumacher would attempt to get past, rather than waiting 3 seconds, because he can't control his adrenaline-rush.

/Steve

[Edited for clarity]

tristancliffe

15th September 2005, 15:46

Yes thats a good point. But I think you've missed my meaning of elitist.

By elitist I think most people wrongly think of the hottest drivers, or the most serious people. What elitist means in my opinion is those that are willing to put in a bit of effort. Some grannies (good generic term) DO put effort in, even if they remain seconds off the race pace. I have NO problem with them. I like to encourage newbies. See me online and I quite frequently go out of my way to help a slower person if he WANTS to learn. And I am happy to take relevent advice from someone about an espect of my driving even if the advice giver is slow in terms of pace.

The grannies that don't fall into my elitist camp, those that think 'okay, so I'm 6 seconds of the pace, I can't see where to go faster, so I'll just stick to this cos it works'. There is no drive (no pun intended) to improve. No asking questions. No paying attention to what the other people are doing, either around them, lapping them, or whatever.

Don't think I want to 'get rid of' anyone and everyone who is 5+ seconds off the pace. God no! We all have to start somewhere. Some, with more time and dedication, might become the next Arrechee, others might only ever get to a couple of seconds of 'the pace', because time (and therefore practice) does not come regularly enough. But if they WANT to improve, be it a tenth or a second then they are okay in my book.

If you are playing LFS simply because you can, or because it's cheap, or because 'it's got damage innit', then you are NOT okay. And I really to think that kind of person will have more fun overall, and a greater sense of achievement in another game anyway.

Maybe I'm missing the point of the 100% casual couldn't care less driver. But most people in this thread now seem to be slightly more serious about it, so even they can't really comment on what goes through their mind.

Don't misunderstand me please. I love LFS, and I love the community. Most online races are fun, but occasionally spoiled by ignorant people tootling around without a care in the world (mistakes not wishstanding).

Edit:
For example, a few months back I started trying to get into IL2. I wanted to learn how to everything, from great dogfighting, to carrier landings in stormy conditions. But I wasn't able to put in the time (cos S2 demo/alpha was released :P), therefore my rate of learning was slower than I wanted, and I felt I wasn't getting the enjoyment out of it that I would have if I put in more practice. Not only that, but when I was online I was a total noob. I kept crashing (can't watch the bad guys AND the ground!), or doing stilly stuff. I therefore decided that although I wasn't a menace, I would be better off leaving it until I had the time and the necessary dedication to fly properly. Now I play X-Plane (7, not 8 yet) offline for my own pleasure. I can fly, use most of the instuments most of the time, and each time I fly I get better at something. That motivates me more than bumming along not getting better at all.

One day, when I'm perfect at LFS, X-Plane and IL2 (fat chance, cos you can ALWAYS drive a better lap, or do a better landing) then I'll give it up.

DasKlee

15th September 2005, 16:21

@tristan

the reason i drive LfS is, that i love motorsports - especially touring/sportscar racing. never were a huge formula/karting fan and probably never will be, but if it is a car that can be seen on the open roads occasionaly (or at least if it looks like it) then i love it

i don'T have the money to drive real races. just drove a few laps on hockenheim, which is close to my home, on the publich track days - that's probably the closest i'll ever get to racing in real life.

LfS is the cheapest way for me to do motor sports - and even if i don't have the greatest talent, i still love the sport and the feeling of actually being in a car on track - a feeling only a good simulation can give you. that'S why i do love LfS and not some game probably easier to get good results

the results aren't my main reason to be here. as long as i see myself improving over a period of time and learning new cars, new tracks and new car/track combos, i'm perfectly fine with that.

sure, i'd love to be within a second of the WR everywhere, but if i'm away 109% and cand find a quick way to get any closer, it doesn't bother me that much - i just keep trying to make it 108.9%

if i had enough money to stop thinking about if i could afford it, i'D probably racing in the VLN and the youngtimer-trophy by now - and would probably not have a slight chance of winning, but still trying to achieve the best in every race and to get better in every lap

and i really wouldn't care if there was an easier to drive car or a quicker to learn sort of motorsport, because these cars are my passion and i do it for the love of the cars and the racing. as long as i try to get the best out of my skill level and do not drive reckless/respect the other (faster AND slower) drivers, i think i should be treated with the same respect..

unfortunately this respect towards honest and fair but slow racers is kind of missing - that was the reason for the very good 'be nice to newbies'-thread over at RSC

and as you said

Most online races are fun, but occasionally spoiled by ignorant people tootling around without a care in the world (mistakes not wishstanding).

if only SOME races are spoiled OCCASIONALLY, then why on earth is everyone (right now in 3 different threads including a poll) calling for a way to keep the wreckers out? and i didn't mean you (tristan) here - you were just explaining your viewpoint - i mean the tons of posters talking like it's impossible to drive half a mile without being wrecked by someone else

there are some strange idiots wrecking everyone on the track because it seems to be funny for them, then there are the reckless drivers, which often are quite fast and drive like they own the track - often complaining about the slower ones being wreckers, because they do not leave the track once they come flying by, try to overtake them on the right side, while another guy is attempting the same manouver on the left side at the same time and then blame the slow guys for any accidents that might happen - and then there are the slower ones that can't control the car properly and cause accidents because they lose control or forget about breaking - but from what i've seen, the last part of the group is the one causing the least accidents of them all

i guess we both do have some shared viewpoints - maybe even most of our views here. you're just one of the few that writes enough to answer/argue with, because the usual 'yes i've been wrecked 5 times yesterday' or 'yes please help us get rid of those wreckers' isn't really useful and worth answering

RBSteve

15th September 2005, 16:26

Yes thats a good point. But I think you've missed my meaning of elitist.

I think you are right, I must have.
And since I agree with everything else you wrote I can't see a reason to go on arguing with you :)

/Steve

tristancliffe

15th September 2005, 18:55

LOL Steve :hug:

The thing is I know exactly what I mean in my head. And I admit I have strong opinions, and I am not afraid of airing them. The tricky bit is getting you to understand my ramblings, as text based, non-real time communication makes it quite difficult.

as long as i see myself improving over a period of time and learning new cars, new tracks and new car/track combos, i'm perfectly fine with that. And in one fell swoop you fall into my 'good' category :D

I know what I want LFS to be like, and I'm sure it differs from how you all want it to turn out (and in turn you all differ from one another - it's called personal opinions).

I don't enjoy arguing. I don't enjoy being flamed. I don't write what I write to get attention. I'd much rather be friends with everyone. At the moment there is another thread where I think JeffR's post, whilst good to read and informative, come across to me as being negative. But it's not a personal thing, and I enjoy being able to discuss the issue with him. But because of the limitations of the text based communitcation I think both of us have come across are rather more aggressive about the points we're making to each other (and other people are thinking we hate each other!).

Ball Bearing Turbo

15th September 2005, 21:59

Indeed Tristan I totally agree with you now too.... funny how much TEXT it takes for humans to understand each other

.... where oh where did my avatar go.....

tristancliffe

15th September 2005, 22:14

Wow it only took about 6 long posts, and now two people don't hate me. Whooooooo!!!

Metalstar

17th September 2005, 17:03

From my experience in this community, i doubt the LFS devs would take
the 'nazi-elite' approach and punish or keep people out. Making sales is
much higher on their list than parenting some unknown troublemaker ;)
Unless he starts annoying the devs personally, i doubt they'd turn on
a paying/potential customer. That's just my opinion though.

That would be a bit of a skewed approach, if that 1 unknown troublemaker keeps annoying people and is ignored, it will put people off the sim, meaning they wont want to play it and wont buy it.

I am very close to just switching to R-factor or just giving up all together, i have been totally unable to have a good close race with anyone on a public server without some muppet ruining the race and/or being abusive.

If things dont improve alot i wont be bothering with S3, so its in everyones interests to get it sorted! Harsher banning would be the simple solution, even if its just 30-60 days at a time to stop people saying "i paid for it so i should be able to play it"

It would give them time to practice offline.

Cue-Ball

17th September 2005, 18:44

I really can't believe so many people are having problems with wreckers. Sure, I see them occasionally, but not what I would call often. I played for about 6 hours last night. We had one wrecker on the server when we were playing the demo version of the game (my friend hadn't bought yet). I banned him from the server and he came back about 15 minutes later under a different name. I banned him again and that was that. He never came back. About an hour later my friend ponied up the money for S2 full so I changed my server from Demo to S2. We had no more wreckers the whole night (4-5 hours of play). We had one drifter join the server but he didn't cause any trouble and left after we asked him to race properly or leave. Nobody else caused any trouble. Sure, there were a few wrecks, but they weren't intentional. Wrecks are just part of the sport.

It doesn't seem like wreckers are much of a problem to me, so long as we take care of the few people trying to intentionally spoil other's game. If we just perma-ban them on the first offense the problem will take care of itself. I'm still in favor of a centralized ban list for server admins who wish to take part.

sdether

19th September 2005, 00:28

lol are you denying penalties for those offences do not exist? How is it not more realistic?

I just looked at my quote of your statement and had not trimmed it appropriately. I was referring purely to the blue flag, for which I have not seen any penalty in any race i've watched. I've seen penalties for blocking and for improper passes, but not for not yielding the line during a blue flag situation. Could be I don't watch enough racing, but from the definition of the blue flag, i don't see how a purely advisory flag could yield a penalty.

The rest of the flag penalties, I agree would be realistic and useful. Except that many of those situations are human judgement calls and hard to execute well in code.