Spinoff : Racing gear shift types

[J.B.]

One thing I just noticed. The F08 defaults to paddle script. I know it's a "fantasy" car but FYI F3000 had sequential shifters while the newer GP2 have paddles.

Here's a vid where you can see some downshifting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sef6_25LGw

Other than that the recent patches have been great. :up:

[Ear Collector]

Hi Scawen,

I do not think this is the correct approach to take entirely. I would tend to agree that 7 speed gearboxes such as the BF1 Sauber would be better suited for sequential/paddle shifting but I completely disagree with making this setting hard coded on all single seaters! I believe all of the other single seater models are 6 speeds or less, correct? These work perfectly well in sequential mode and we've in fact been driving in this mode quite a lot using G-25! Also, isn't it possible to alter gear ratios to effectively use 6 gears on the BF1 car as well??

Please please do not limit the usefulness of our G-25 gated shifter!

I would even argue that instead of limitations, you could potentially consider alternative control methods that work concurrently. In one of your competitor's games, we are able to configure both the gated and paddle shifters concurrently as primary and secondary controls and you have the ability to use them interchangeably. This might be a better approach. Either way, I do not think locking out the gated shifter is ever a good idea.

Cheers!

Ear Collector
Logitech


[quote=Scawen;162693]Hello Racers! Here is a new Test Patch U20! :)


NOTE about H-shifters : Since U11, you cannot use an H shifter on a single seater car. If you have a shifter, LFS automatically sets to sequential when you select a single seater. There are two separate versions of these three settings (one for sequential and one for shifter) : AutoClutch, GCCut, GCBlip. That's because a lot of people may wish to use auto clutch with their paddle shift and manual clutch with their shifter.

[Scawen]

Hi Scawen,

I do not think this is the correct approach to take entirely. I would tend to agree that 7 speed gearboxes such as the BF1 Sauber would be better suited for sequential/paddle shifting but I completely disagree with making this setting hard coded on all single seaters! I believe all of the other single seater models are 6 speeds or less, correct? These work perfectly well in sequential mode and we've in fact been driving in this mode quite a lot using G-25! Also, isn't it possible to alter gear ratios to effectively use 6 gears on the BF1 car as well??

Please please do not limit the usefulness of our G-25 gated shifter!Hi Ear Collector.

I know what you mean, and in fact at this moment in time the sequential gearboxes aren't yet implemented as true sequential boxes. In effect, the BF1 has a "road car style" gearbox, but limited to sequential control. So right now, it would be completely valid to allow the use of an H shifter.

But... it's an important part of the near future physics development, to implement them as true sequential gearboxes (like real racing cars and all motorbikes). There are important differences, as one example it's very easy to change gear without the clutch when you use a sequential box, but the gears must all be closer in ratio. Also it is *impossible* to select any gear other than the one above or below the one you are in.

And that leads me to the point I'm going to make. When the true sequential box is implemented, the H-shifter becomes an invalid means of controlling the gearbox. From one point of view it's actually impossible to control a sequential gearbox with an H shifter (i.e. in reality it would have to be an electronic device that then operated the actual sequential shifter). I don't really know why anyone would want to control a modern single seater car with an H shifter - as far as I know that disappeared after the GP Legends style racing cars, and sequential boxes have become the standard all round.

Note that the sequential shift lever style is is no way disabled by the new code. The user is free to use the sequential shift lever. To LFS this is indistingushable from a paddle shifter anyway. And F1 cars in between the GP Legends era and the modern era, did use a sequential stick to operate the sequential gearbox, for several years. [ EDIT - apparently that's not true - see below ] So actually I'm surprised that you don't want to use the sequential stick shifter method, rather than the H shifter.

[ CORRECTION : It seems I was wrong about the history of Formula 1 cars gearboxes and shifting systems. F1 cars apparently never used a sequential stick, and went straight from H-pattern gear stick to the modern paddle shifters. See posts starting here :
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=206218#post206218
Sorry about posting incorrect information about F1 cars in the previous paragraph. ]

The only thing I'm thinking could be possible after sequential boxes are implemented (to allow the use of the H-shifter) is to add a user setting to allow H shifters to fakely control a sequential gearbox, kind of "above" all the true gearbox code. So let's say you were in 6th gear and you selected 2nd gear using your shifter, then it would sequentially go fifth, fourth, third, second, as fast as possible, as if you had been using paddles.

I haven't thought through all the consequences. Though it does seem a bit pointless, and a waste of time to me personally, because it must be a really small minority of people who don't want to use an even vaguely correct type of gearshifter for the car they are using. It seems to me that using the correct controller is part of using a simulation.

Hmm... there is one other possibility, as for some of the GTR cars we have considered having the type of gearbox as a user setting. Note that in this paragraph I am talking about the actual physical simulated gearbox, not the user control method. So for example in a FXO GTR you would have sequential as default, but could select "road style" gearbox as an option. This is based on reality as there are apparently different kinds of gearboxes in use in racing Porsches. I guess we could allow this for the Formula 1 car as well - if you deliberately want to cripple your car by using a road style synchromesh gearbox, then you can do so - and *that* could be the way to allow the use of an H-shifter... though it does really seem a bit unrealistic to allow that option on a F1 car.

[J.B.]

[...] as far as I know that disappeared after the GP Legends style racing cars, and sequential boxes have become the standard all round.

[...]

And F1 cars in between the GP Legends era and the modern era, did use a sequential stick to operate the sequential gearbox, for several years.

No, F1's never used sequential gearboxes. They all had H-patterns until Ferrari introduced their semi-automatic, paddle-shifted gearbox in 1989. The other teams caught up in the following years. F3000 cars went from H-pattern to sequential stick in the nineties, Formula 3 (http://www.formel3.com/index.php?inhalt=dallara-f301&teaser=f3v-teaser) in 2001 or 2002 and GP2 used paddles from the beginning in 2005.

No idea what this means for LFS but I couldn't resist the urge to be a wiseguy. :)

[Scawen]

Thanks for correcting me on that.

Do you know why that is? Was it in the rules that they could not use a sequential box? Or was it their choice? They were fitted to motorbikes a very long time ago, so it's not a new invention...

I'm confused about that. I remember watching this amazing lap of Monaco driven by Ayrton Senna, using a stick shifter. I have always believed that was a sequential shifter, not a H-pattern shifter. I guess I'm just wrong about that, but, how do you know for a fact they never used sequential shifters? I believe you but I want to see more evidence before abandoning what I've believed for years. And I want to know *why* they didn't use them.

I'm failing to find any useful information on the web about this, the history of sequential gearboxes seems to be hard to find.

[axus]

As I recall, Williams-Renault did use a CVT gearbox for some time - I think it was in the early 90's... so I'd imagine that the rules about gearboxes were not very specific at the time. Whether or not that was the case in the late 80's, I'm not sure.

[Thorvertonian]

From what I remember, I always thought that the stick shifters were sequential as well, but if you got any evidence to contrary....

[tristancliffe]

As far as I know, from poking the odd F1 car over the years, they've either used H-shifters or flappy paddles. I don't know why they never bothered with sequential levers, but I don't know of a single team that did.

As for the CVT, I think a few people experimented with them, but they were never developed to a state of competitiveness, but that's not the issue here.

I'll see if I can find about sequential F1s, but I'm 99% sure they were all H-shifters. The famous Senna qualifying at Monaco clip is with an h-shifter. He once (I think that same year) had the knob come off the lever, and it cut through most of his flesh on his palm in a race (on the thread). But again that's not the issue here. I'll see what I can find out.

Edit1: I know CART/IRL use manual sequentials.

[J.B.]

Thanks for correcting me on that.

Do you know why that is? Was it in the rules that they could not use a sequential box? Or was it their choice? They were fitted to motorbikes a very long time ago, so it's not a new invention...

I'm confused about that. I remember watching this amazing lap of Monaco driven by Ayrton Senna, using a stick shifter. I have always believed that was a sequential shifter, not a H-pattern shifter. I guess I'm just wrong about that, but, how do you know for a fact they never used sequential shifters? I believe you but I want to see more evidence before abandoning what I've believed for years. And I want to know *why* they didn't use them.

I'm failing to find any useful information on the web about this, the history of sequential gearboxes seems to be hard to find.

No, I don't know why they didn't use sequentials and I haven't been able to find out a lot via google but I don't think it was the rules.

TBH I didn't really know what the mechanical difference between an H-pattern and a sequential gearbox was before I posted here. If howstuffworks.com is to be trusted, the only difference is in the actuation mechanism so I guess when I said F1's never used sequential gearboxes I meant that they never used muscle operated sequential gearboxes, only hydraulic or electro-mechanically operated .

The only reason I could think of is that maybe the downshifts weren't fast enough for the short braking distances? With an H-pattern gears could be skipped when downshifting.

The best proof of H-patterns in F1 I could find are the following videos. Both quite clearly show shifting movements that are not just back and forth and I think also gear skipping before the chicanes. The first is from 1989 and the second from 1990.

http://rapidshare.de/files/31570205/senna_1990_monaco_full_lap.wmv.html
http://rapidshare.de/files/31571228/F1_-_Ayrton_Senna_Onboard_Qualifying_in_Suzuka_GP.mpg. html

I hope rapidshare works for you, they are both available on youtube as well but it's not as easily visible there due to the low resolution.


As I recall, Williams-Renault did use a CVT gearbox for some time - I think it was in the early 90's... so I'd imagine that the rules about gearboxes were not very specific at the time. Whether or not that was the case in the late 80's, I'm not sure.

They did a single test with it in the car around '93/'94. It was imediately banned afterwards, maybe because of the awful noise a constant rpm F1 probably makes.

[George Kuyumji]

No, I don't know why they didn't use sequentials and I haven't been able to find out a lot via google but I don't think it was the rules.

TBH I didn't really know what the mechanical difference between an H-pattern and a sequential gearbox was before I posted here. If howstuffworks.com is to be trusted, the only difference is in the actuation mechanism so I guess when I said F1's never used sequential gearboxes I meant that they never used muscle operated sequential gearboxes, only hydraulic or electro-mechanically operated .

The only reason I could think of is that maybe the downshifts weren't fast enough for the short braking distances? With an H-pattern gears could be skipped when downshifting.

The best proof of H-patterns in F1 I could find are the following videos. Both quite clearly show shifting movements that are not just back and forth and I think also gear skipping before the chicanes. The first is from 1989 and the second from 1990.

http://rapidshare.de/files/31570205/senna_1990_monaco_full_lap.wmv.html
http://rapidshare.de/files/31571228/F1_-_Ayrton_Senna_Onboard_Qualifying_in_Suzuka_GP.mpg. html

I hope rapidshare works for you, they are both available on youtube as well but it's not as easily visible there due to the low resolution.




They did a single test with it in the car around '93/'94. It was imediately banned afterwards, maybe because of the awful noise a constant rpm F1 probably makes.


I was surprised to see that you couldnt use a H Shifter on single Seater cars in the Test Patch. Because I have driven Formula Ford type cars and they all required clutching and shifting with an H kind shifter. :shrug:

[EveningStar]

I was surprised to see that you couldnt use a H Shifter on single Seater cars in the Test Patch. Because I have driven Formula Ford type cars and they all required clutching and shifting with an H kind shifter. :shrug:

Hello! Just wanted to metion that i was also driving formula ford cars. Which look like our formula xr except that thay dont have any wings. And they had a 4 speed h shifter which needed normal clutching between up and downshifts.

After that i drove formula bmw which are nearly the same then the formula xr. There we had a sequential gearbox which needed clutching only at downshifts. at upshifts we only needed to lift off very short. probably you could upshift without lifting but werent allowed to because its not very healthy for the gearboxes :).

I also tested an old vw polo cup car (btw which is real crap ;)) which has had an ordinary 6 speed gearbox and newer ones have sequential boxes.

I dont think that that the bf1 needs a h-shifter gearbox and also the fo8 doesnt need one simply because no one in the real world would drive them with h-shifter (in f1 and f3).

but for other race cars like the formula xr and the gtrs i would love it to have the choice (in the setup) between 2 (or more?) gearboxes.

Just my opinion!

[CodieMorgan]

One thing I just noticed. The F08 defaults to paddle script. I know it's a "fantasy" car but FYI F3000 had sequential shifters while the newer GP2 have paddles.

Here's a vid where you can see some downshifting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sef6_25LGw

Other than that the recent patches have been great. :up:



It seys you'rse a demo driver on your profile... so how the hell do you get to drive a FO8 legitimatly? Cracked version heh?

[CodieMorgan]

Slightly unrelated.. but related...

Im wishing that there was a key to shift straight to neutral from any gear...

Reasoning is because if I run out of fuel,, I dont want to lock up my rears trying to get to neutral fast on keyboard sequencial. I nead to be able to roll to the pits sometimes!

[pik_d]

Try holding in the clutch then. Even if you're using a sequential transmission, the clutch key should still work (does for me at least).

[tristancliffe]

It seys you'rse a demo driver on your profile... so how the hell do you get to drive a FO8 legitimatly? Cracked version heh?

J.B. has been around for AGES (RSC days), and uses a demo account on this forum so that he appears as J.B. I don't actually know what his username is, but I firmly believe he has one (if not, what has he been doing for the last 4 years!). I know flaming demo users is fun, but at least try to work out who is who, and who does what first ;)

[herki]

J.B. has been around for AGES (RSC days), and uses a demo account on this forum so that he appears as J.B. I don't actually know what his username is, but I firmly believe he has one (if not, what has he been doing for the last 4 years!). I know flaming demo users is fun, but at least try to work out who is who, and who does what first ;)

Plus: He has an avatar, which is quite unusual for demo-accounts :tilt:

[scoobyrbac]

Kinda odd eh?

[tristancliffe]

What is? If you're going to go to the trouble of bumping old threads, at least tell us what you are referring to! So, the paddle/sequential shift thing as in the OP, or about JB?

[Bumpdrafter]

No, I don't know why they didn't use sequentials and I haven't been able to find out a lot via google but I don't think it was the rules.

TBH I didn't really know what the mechanical difference between an H-pattern and a sequential gearbox was before I posted here. If howstuffworks.com is to be trusted, the only difference is in the actuation mechanism so I guess when I said F1's never used sequential gearboxes I meant that they never used muscle operated sequential gearboxes, only hydraulic or electro-mechanically operated .

The only reason I could think of is that maybe the downshifts weren't fast enough for the short braking distances? With an H-pattern gears could be skipped when downshifting.

The best proof of H-patterns in F1 I could find are the following videos. Both quite clearly show shifting movements that are not just back and forth and I think also gear skipping before the chicanes. The first is from 1989 and the second from 1990.

http://rapidshare.de/files/31570205/senna_1990_monaco_full_lap.wmv.html
http://rapidshare.de/files/31571228/F1_-_Ayrton_Senna_Onboard_Qualifying_in_Suzuka_GP.mpg. html

I hope rapidshare works for you, they are both available on youtube as well but it's not as easily visible there due to the low resolution.




They did a single test with it in the car around '93/'94. It was imediately banned afterwards, maybe because of the awful noise a constant rpm F1 probably makes.

Sorry for quoting an old post, but i felt myself forced to register here just to post this :tilt:

Actually, they did use Sequential Manual Gearboxes on F1 cars, but it appears that they weren't used for much time. As a example we have the McLaren MP4/5B (1990), the MP4/6 (1991) and the MP4/6B raced early in 1992. The videos you posted are actually from 1989 so the presence of the H-Shifter :D


Now off to a visual proof.

This is the lap that gave Senna the pole on the 1990 Monaco GP. Clear use of the Sequential Manual Gearbox can be seen here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLb46n_pITo

Moving ahead in time, to 1991. Onboard camera again in Senna's car as he poles his McLaren at Interlagos. The video has subtitles in Brazilian Portuguese, so it covers the critical part for us. But its pretty clear when he brakes for the 1st corner (named Senna's S) that its a SMG in use :tilt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWuHUfU9eB0

But as you said, Semi-Automatic Gearboxes were introduced in 1989 by Ferrari. But it was very unreliable. Williams first used it 1991 and it was pretty unreliable too, until midseason when they made a massive upgrade to the car, but it was too late to catch Senna in the points, giving the brazilian his 3rd World Championship :thumbsup:

But the 1992 and 1993 domination we know very well, so i won't talk about it here :)

[J.B.]

I've uploaded the two youtube clips you linked to in better quality so you can see his right hand better. I would say the Monaco one is clearly H-shift (right at the beginning you can see him pull back to 5th and then push forward to 6th) while the Interlagos one is hard to tell but IMO also H-Shift.

http://rapidshare.com/files/34642064/clips.rar.html

[J.B.]

Plus: He has an avatar, which is quite unusual for demo-accounts :tilt:

Yeah, it's funny. At one point I had full S2 privelliges on this account (avatar, sig etc.). Then I lost them during a forum software update. Then after that hacker attack a few months ago my old avatar came back out into the open but I still don't have access to the menus to change or deactivate it. :scratchch

[tristancliffe]

I watched them earlier and I've convinced both videos are h-shifts. Unless his sequential lever was made from soggy toast.

[Yaamboo]

This is the lap that gave Senna the pole on the 1990 Monaco GP. Clear use of the Sequential Manual Gearbox can be seen here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLb46n_pITo

That's a H-shifter.
But its pretty clear when he brakes for the 1st corner (named Senna's S) that its a SMG in use :tilt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWuHUfU9eB0
The sound and the video aren't matching, and he is using a stick shifter of some kind, but you can't clearly see if it is a sequential or a H-pattern.

[Bob Smith]

Yeah, it's funny. At one point I had full S2 privelliges on this account (avatar, sig etc.). Then I lost them during a forum software update. Then after that hacker attack a few months ago my old avatar came back out into the open but I still don't have access to the menus to change or deactivate it. :scratchch
Yeah it's weird. I can add an avatar to any demo account but it won't appear next to posts. There must be some "display avatar" property that I can't see, which is off for most demo accounts. Some accounts, for some unknown reason, have it on, but demo accounts do not have sufficient priveledges to edit their own avatar. I can remove the avatar if you wish, I could try changing it but there's a chance you'll lose it for good.

Your own story is a little more complicated as I too remember you being displayed as S2 licensed at one point. IIRC from posts at the time you said you hadn't paid again so me assume Vic did some meddling, which was overwritten with defaults during a vBulletin udgrade but Vic has never put it back.

/OT

[J.B.]

I see. Well I'll just keep the one I've got right now, better than nothing. But thx for looking into it.

[Bumpdrafter]

After taking another look at the videos, i have to admit that i was wrong :x:shrug:

Now at least i have 2 great videos here :tilt:

But here's something strange, some websites like motorsports.com (or whatever it is called) make references to sequential manual gearboxes in the McLarens. :really:

Odd :scratchch

[Woz]

So to get this clear. In future versions we will have the following situation


Open wheel cars - sequential
GTR cars - sequential by default but gearbox can be changed to H
Others - HWhere do the UFR & XFR fit in. I assume they will selectable gearbox but possible H as default?

I will be interesting to see the performance gains from the sequential in the GTRs over H. That said I will stick with my H as its just more fun :)

[Tomi]

So to get this clear. In future versions we will have the following situation
Open wheel cars - sequential
GTR cars - sequential by default but gearbox can be changed to H
Others - HWhere do the UFR & XFR fit in. I assume they will selectable gearbox but possible H as default?

UFR and XFR real names are UF-1000 GTR and XF GTR. They are GTR cars.

[Woz]

UFR and XFR real names are UF-1000 GTR and XF GTR. They are GTR cars.

They are NOT the same class of car though are they :)

[rueda]

Hello :wave23d:

This is my first post here and I hope it will be usefull !
I will post my feedback about the new simulated gearbox in the X30 patch (I hope it is the right place for that).

I don't know well F1 history about gearbox compared to other people here but I'm mechanical engineer with a really good knowledge about different types of gearbox and how it works and react.

There's 2 big types of gearbox described below and it is not sequential gearbox and H-patter ones ! (in fact We can also consider gearbox with spur gears and helical gears that have a really different design and result, but it will not change anything on a sim)

- Synchro engagement gearbox (most of the time with helical gears but not necessarily)
With this sort of gearbox, any gearchange will need necessarily the help of the clutch (except with a perfect synchronism of the speed of the engine and the primary gearbox shaft with a low movement of the lever and a small engine speed, but completely unusable in race condition)

This sort of gearbox is used on every road car (except perhaps some rare "supercars") including recent "sequential" road car gearbox (for example Alfa-Romeo selespeed).
It is not used on motorcycle because the low engine inertia and vehicule inertia makes it useless.


- Dog engagement gearbox (most of the time with spur gears but not necessarily)
It is used on motorcycle and on race car. it can be in h-pattern or sequential.
With this type of gearbox, you can do a gearchange without the help of the clutch if the difference of speed beetween primary gearbox shaft and engine is not too important. If the difference of the speed is too important, sometimes the gear will not engage and if it engage, you will make damage to the gearbox and transmissions. Some drivers destruct quickly these components, other are more gentle...

According to that, it is easily to upshift than to downshift (because the engine will deacrease rpm easier than increasing).
Race gearbox need to put a throttle input to help downshifting and to lift a bit the throttle when upshifting. (the new BMW FB02 is well simulated for upshifting but I found the downshifting too easy, but perhaps the low inetia of the car helps. Scawen having tried this car, I think downshifting works like that on this car, but I'm sceptic ?)

On some "rare" race cars (WRC, F1, ...), the throttle is electronically controlled on downshifting permitting to engage the gear without clutch or a blow of throttle.
And on some more common race cars (generally cars with sequential gearbox), the ignition is cut when upshifting permitting also to engage it easily.


In conclusion :
- I think upshifting with sequential gearbox cars (sequential on race car is every time "dog engagement gearbox") is well simulated in LFS X30, not downshifting.
- Road cars must use synchro gearbox with use of clutch at every shifting.
- For the UF/XF GTR, I think the best is using a dog gearbox with H-pattern.

I hope it will be usefull and Scawen have time to read this long post, I'm avalaible for any question about that (or anything else about racecar design, I've a good knowledge about that)...

PS : excuse me for my English...

[EeekiE]

Well understood here.

A dog engagement H-pattern box would be mighty interesting on the UF/XF GTR as you say.

[Chrisuu01]

So to get this clear. In future versions we will have the following situation

Open wheel cars - sequential
GTR cars - sequential by default but gearbox can be changed to H
Others - HWhere do the UFR & XFR fit in. I assume they will selectable gearbox but possible H as default?

I will be interesting to see the performance gains from the sequential in the GTRs over H. That said I will stick with my H as its just more fun :)

Whil this efect DFP users like mee self?:schwitz:

[i_MAXIBON]

im so confused

i hope this helps

help me

[Bob Smith]

???

[geeman1]

im so confusingYes, you are. :tilt:

[SFL]

- Dog engagement gearbox It is used on motorcycle and on race car. /.../ Race gearbox need to put a throttle input to help downshifting and to lift a bit the throttle when upshifting.


Great post! Got me to ask some questions:

You don't use the clutch when shifting a motorbike?

When shifting a race car with sequential dogbox, if the throttle isn't applied correctly do you get stuck in neutral between gears or is the "old" gear still engaged?

[tristancliffe]

You can shift any car without a clutch. Including bikes.

In the car sequential dogbox, you will be in neutral if you do it wrong, and the dogs will make nasty crunching sounds - I have videos to prove it (when I stuffed up a few shifts at Silverstone).

[SFL]

I thought that according to ruedas post motorbikes has gearboxes that was meant to be shifted without clutch (dogbox) and road cars has not (allthough it's possible but not in any race conditions)


Being stuck in neutral would be a nice addition to lfs gear physics. Would make correct shifting alot more important!

[rueda]

???What don't you understand ?
Perhaps you don't seen my post ? (last of the 1st page)

Great post! Got me to ask some questions:

You don't use the clutch when shifting a motorbike?

When shifting a race car with sequential dogbox, if the throttle isn't applied correctly do you get stuck in neutral between gears or is the "old" gear still engaged?On a motorbike, you can use gearbox without clutch. Myself, on my 600 CBR, I use the clutch only to start, to pass from 1st to 2nd and to downshift (sometimes I don't use clutch to downshift). On a racetrack, I never use the clutch except to downshift from 2nd to 1st and in somme difficult track parts.

On a race sequential car, like I've said, I you don't shift correctly, sometimes, the gear pass (with a "bad shock" on the transmissions), sometimes the gear won't pass, sometimes you will hurt the gearbox more or less. It is possible to be in neutral (beetween 2 gears), depending on how the gearbox design is, but it is really rare.
In fact, if the difference of speed is too high the gear won't pass (or will make a lot of damages) and if the difference of speed is "just high" the gear will pass with a "bad shock"...

[ColeusRattus]

Having tested the gear changing (got my G25 Today. YAY!), I have a suggestion: If you switch the G25 H-Sequential-Mode, the buttons are not the same as shift up and down, but as gear one and two. Thus, it renders the sequential stick useless.
So, why not make the sequential gearboxes also contollable via gear one and two? That would be a simple way to not break the functionality of the G25 and would allow us to drive the FBM with a stick instead of the paddles (which also seems more appropriate for the FOX and the sequential GTRs)

[duke_toaster]

Where do the UFR & XFR fit in. I assume they will selectable gearbox but possible H as default?

If the UFR and XFR were real cars they would probably have sequentials.

Clio Cup cars have stick sequentials (not sure about ignition cut but I could find out), so do most Super 2000 touring cars. BTC-T touring cars all had sequentials (but it was a spec gearbox). The current SEAT Leon Supercopa cars all have paddleshifts (but the older ones had H patterns).

[AndroidXP]

...
You might want to write yourself some LFS scripts that set up the correct shifttype and button assignment per car (see here (http://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/Script_Guide) for a little starting help).

[Gil07]

Having tested the gear changing (got my G25 Today. YAY!), I have a suggestion: If you switch the G25 H-Sequential-Mode, the buttons are not the same as shift up and down, but as gear one and two. Thus, it renders the sequential stick useless.
So, why not make the sequential gearboxes also contollable via gear one and two? That would be a simple way to not break the functionality of the G25 and would allow us to drive the FBM with a stick instead of the paddles (which also seems more appropriate for the FOX and the sequential GTRs)

Just assign the stick to shift_up and shift_down again with a script, when you load the FBM. I drive it with the stick.

The FOX is based on a formulas Renault, and those have paddles IIRC, so I drive with them in the FOX...

Edit: Preemted!

[ColeusRattus]

I know that I can do that. It shouldn't be too difficult to do for scawen to be standard though.

[rueda]

If the UFR and XFR were real cars they would probably have sequentials.

Clio Cup cars have stick sequentials (not sure about ignition cut but I could find out), so do most Super 2000 touring cars. BTC-T touring cars all had sequentials (but it was a spec gearbox). The current SEAT Leon Supercopa cars all have paddleshifts (but the older ones had H patterns).Yes, there's a lot of sequential in nowadays race cars, I know well the clio cup, they use a Sadev St90-14 gearbox with an ignition cut for upshift.
Anyway, (an it is only my own opinion), I prefer to get h-pattern dogbox for UFR and XFR to get more diversity in LFS.

[ajp71]

If the UFR and XFR were real cars they would probably have sequentials.

Clio Cup cars have stick sequentials (not sure about ignition cut but I could find out), so do most Super 2000 touring cars. BTC-T touring cars all had sequentials (but it was a spec gearbox). The current SEAT Leon Supercopa cars all have paddleshifts (but the older ones had H patterns).

There's no reason why they'd have to have sequentials, most racing Minis will not be using sequential gearboxes and there's no reason why you can't race without a sequential and for a variety of reasons a lot of real cars don't, LFS has a lot more freedom so we don't have to worry about being competitive because the cars can be made more equal, and a lot of people want to drive an H-gate anyway. I know one of the main grounds for keeping sequential gearboxes out of club single seaters, and equally limiting to 4 rather than 5 ratio 'boxes was that is what drivers want to drive, not just cost.

[Gil07]

I know that I can do that. It shouldn't be too difficult to do for scawen to be standard though.

Could be, but not everyone wants their controls set up the same way I think.

[Merc68k]

Hi Scawen, & all,

I don't know if this has been discussed to death or not, I didn't see any threads specifically asking this question, so sorry if it has been done to death... and feel free to move this to the proper thread if needed... but:

Could we please have the option of an auto clutch as before? The way the gearboxes behave right now in X30, especially cars like the MRT and the new BMW, is really awkward IMHO. I have a Logitech Momo wheel, and none of the buttons are really in reach to use as a clutch button, and I can't use my keyboard.. it's just not practical to reach over the wheel to hit a key to shift gears :shrug:.

85% of the time I can get the gears to change if I get off the gas, and maybe I just need more practice... but at times it can really be awkward trying to get the next gear, where if I had a real pedal I would have changed up or down 2 gears in the time it took me to find one.

The cars with simulated sequential boxes seem to work fine as you'd expect, since no clutch is needed in real life, but for those of us without a 3rd pedal to press, it's a real drag. If you're going to remove the auto clutch, you might as well take out the auto transmission option altogether and force everyone to use a manual trans.. there's a point at which you have to sacrifice some realism to allow for the limitations of the controllers available, ie without a clutch. IMHO.

Other than that, I love the update -- the game seems to look a lot more realistic, although I can't place quite why... and it's nice to have some AI drivers to practice against again, not to mention everything else I haven't even found yet :D

Above all, thanks devs for the continual improvements.. I've been addicted to LFS since 0.2N came out (I think it was) and it continues to be the best sim out there as far as I am concerned!

[deggis]

Could we please have the option of an auto clutch as before?
Check options -> driver... auto clutch has not been removed :)


.

[Merc68k]

Ah, but that's only for the sequential gearbox cars... my problem is with the cars that would have an H-pattern shifter in real life -- I have only paddles with my wheel and no easy way to activate the clutch to shift gears. Unless I could map the shifter paddles to also do the clutch pedal at the same time...

[tristancliffe]

You can have an auto-clutch in all the cars.

[Merc68k]

Okay, well I may have been wrong about what's going on... After playing with it some more, the auto clutch seems to work fine on the H pattern cars; I can upshift and downshift at any time.

The auto clutch works on the sequential shift boxes as well, but I don't seem to be able to downshift if I'm using more than say 1/2 throttle.. Is this just typical of normal sequential shifters, that you have to take your foot off the gas to shift gears?

Oh, maybe this behavior is only with the cars that don't have the ignition cut feature -- the ones that do have it are unloading the trans when I shift and that's why they work?

I guess I'm learning a bit about racing transmissions as I go :)