Speculative question about auto-shifting, throttle lifting/blipping, etc.

[jtr99]

Hi, all.

First, a terrible confession: I have often been using auto-shifting during my brief LFS career. This has been for two reasons. One, I have enough to do trying to find the line, braking points, etc., and attempting to manage the throttle, so leaving the shifting duties out of the equation has (I think) helped me to focus on the more important stuff. Two, if I'm playing late at night, the click of the aluminium paddle shifter on my wheel is ridiculously loud and will lead to my sleeping wife waking up to divorce me.

When I have tried manual shifting on a track/car combination that I'm starting to get familiar with, such as Aston Club in the Formula XR, I've found that I get quite similar lap times. Maybe a shade faster if I get all the shifts right. But then I watched and listened to the in-car view of some of the fast guys, and realized that a lot of people are not lifting off the throttle at all when they change up. This is something that auto-shift does for you automatically (and indeed you can't stop it from happening, I think?) and something that I do instinctively when shifting manually, probably because of time in real cars and playing a lot of NASCAR Racing 2003 on road tracks.

In NR2003 of course, the engine damage model will quickly penalize you (with a blown engine or gear) for never lifting on upshift. Whereas in the current S2 alpha the engine damage modelling seems pretty generous and I get the impression you could shift at full-throttle all day without paying the price. (Not complaining about this and I realize that more accurate engine and gearbox damage simulation is almost certainly coming soon in LFS.)

So, sorry for the rambling, but here's my question. What sort of lap time advantage do you think you get from not lifting the throttle at all on up-shifts? I haven't put in enough laps to be sure, but I get the impression that on Aston Club in the Formula XR I can shave off 0.3 to 0.5 sec / lap by remembering not to lift.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I guess the only danger is getting used to this practice and then getting hammered with blown engines when the damage model is updated.

[-wes-]

Some people say its faster and the wr times are done with flat shifting,I lift my self but thats just me.

by the way you won't damage the engine in nr2003 by flat shifting, I did it all the time. The gearbox of a nascar is designed to take it if you rpm match no need for the clutch at all.
In lfs you still need the clutch else the sim wont change the gear, but you don't need to lift on up shift.

Lots of threads about this, have a dig through the rsc site.

[Theafro]

flat shifting IS faster (just head to the 'strip to find out for yourself) and it doesn't damage the engine like you'de hope it would, so theroretically it would be a good idea to leave the 'throttle cut' left off. although it's much much more satisfying to lift properly and smoothly (and not MUCH slower), and driving with no aids whatsoever is the most satisfying of all, but the damage engine needs to be a bit more 'breakable' if you get my meaning, you can over-rev the engine with the gears and cause quite a considerable drop in power, but you have really give it some stick in order to notice the damage, i've managed to hammer a UFR into not being able to go faster than 15-20 :). but it would be nice if the 'advantege' of flat shifting was outweighed by the damage caused by going 2-3000rpm over the normal redline

[Bob Smith]

Two, if I'm playing late at night, the click of the aluminium paddle shifter on my wheel is ridiculously loud and will lead to my sleeping wife waking up to divorce me.
Really? That's weird, I find the twirling of the motor to be much louder than the click of the shifter. What wheel are you using?

This is something that auto-shift does for you automatically (and indeed you can't stop it from happening, I think?) and something that I do instinctively when shifting manually, probably because of time in real cars and playing a lot of NASCAR Racing 2003 on road tracks.
If you go to Options => Player you can disable the automatic throttle cut on upshift, the automatic throttle blip on downshift, or the automatic clutch all together.

[Cue-Ball]

Any real life car that has a rev limiter will not be damaged by leaving the throttle to the floor when upshifting. Drag racers leave the hammer to the floor for the whole run and it has no ill effects. So long as you don't over-rev the engine (which you can't, with a rev limiter) and there's not already a problem with the engine, it won't hurt anything. The only caveat to this is that if you've got a lot of power, and the right gears, not lifting the throttle when you shift can make you LOSE time because the tires break loose when you grab the next gear.

[MadArrow]

Revving an engine without a load on it, especially full throttle to redline or beyond is very hard on it. Even with a limiter I would still think it would be pretty bad for it.

[farcar]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of rev limiters says that they will not prevent you from over revving on upshift, when the car is effectively in neutral briefly. The same as they'll have no effect on over revving on downshift.

To put my two bob in, I think that you should be heavily punished for flat shifting (or any over revving). 2 or three laps of it should render your car useless. It's more realistic. At least make realistic engine damage an option.

[Boris Lozac]

But there is a diiference beatween ordinary road car, and race car.. I also started Flat shifting recently, because i am faster like that.. but i don't know does real life racers lift off the throtle when upshifting??

[farcar]

But there is a diiference beatween ordinary road car, and race car.. I also started Flat shifting recently, because i am faster like that.. but i don't know does real life racers lift off the throtle when upshifting??

Some gearboxes, like in Formula 1 cars, upmarket Audis, BMWs etc, have automatic throttle cut on upshift, kinda like the driving aid.

I don't think any of the cars in S2 are intended to be like this, so in real life, the driver would simply take his foot off the throttle momentarily while changing gears. Is that what you mean?

[Boris Lozac]

Yes, that was i thinking, because i don't lift off the thrortle assuming that that is what raeal racers drive, am i wrong.. ?

[dhinchin]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of rev limiters says that they will not prevent you from over revving on upshift, when the car is effectively in neutral briefly. The same as they'll have no effect on over revving on downshift.

To put my two bob in, I think that you should be heavily punished for flat shifting (or any over revving). 2 or three laps of it should render your car useless. It's more realistic. At least make realistic engine damage an option.

Agree here. A (real life) rev limiter will not prevent over revving on 'enthusiastic' downshifting. I notice on some replays that many bang down through the gears quickly to assist braking, resulting in rpms going through the roof. Presumably upshift/downshift techniques will need to change for many once the damage model is finalised or there will be many instances of blown engines.

[B2B@300]

Hi... just an experience from real life, I had a VL Commodore (aussie car) with a 6 cyl fuel inject motor and rev limiter...
It got stolen and the son of bitches thrashed the hell out of it lol... they reved it so much they broke the engine mounts (bonnet was dented from motor bouncing around inside) damaged the 5 spd gear box (it was always noisy after that) but the engine seemed to have no problems at all so my guess is the rev limiter works very well even in neutral :)
I think the main area for engine damage would be downshifting too soon as others have said...

Edit: - also when you watch others race online the lag factor makes it seem like there overreving to the max when flat shifting, I personally flat shift a fair bit but also tend to lift off fractionaly aswell depending on the situation.. my RPM never goes into the red :) the only time i get engine damage is when accidently downshifting to a lower gear than i should have lol

Edit 2: - got me curious so I just checked some replays of myself in a GTi, in N in the pits the RPM will hit 10,500, when I'm racing and flatshift the RPM is always in the 9,100 - 9,500 range and when downshifting aggressively (i dont downshift as aggressively as some though :P) it averages around 9,000 RPM the redline on the GTi is 9,500 so im not even getting close to the rev limiter so its a mute point... maybe different in the more powerful cars though I dont know...

Edit 3: - k i thought what would be the most likely car to have this problem.. the fo8 right :) well tryed it on that as well, definately has a much faster engine response it goes well into the red on flat shifting... but i notice the rev limiter kicks in at 11,750 rpm and when flat shifting it hits about 11,500 rpm for a fleeting of a second... (watched replay in 1/4 slow motion) im not convinced it actually hits the rev limiter either :/ the engine in the fo8 can handle 11,500 rpm no problem so it shouldnt damage it (i sat in the pits and held it at 11,500 for several seconds without any damage...) so maybe the problem is not the rev limiter but the speed of gear changes able to be achieved :)

[mrodgers]

It seems to me that people get confused on flatshifting vs. not using the clutch. Flatshifting you are still using the clutch, just not lifting off the throttle. I think in real racing (I think, not know) that they do NOT flatshift, rather they shift without using the clutch. That is where they are rev matching the engine to the transmission. I see that (rev matching) comment about flatshifting all the time here. You cannot possibly rev match if you are flatshifting. I think flatshifting is unrealistic as real racers would know the dangers of overreving their engine 2-3000 rpms above the redline. Now, not clutching is something that happens in real racing all the time, whether it is sequential shifting or plain old Nascar 4-speed box. I don't get to see much road racing on TV, but when Nascar runs at Infineon or Watkins Glen, they put camera's on many of the driver's feet. It is really cool to see 2 feet dance all over 3 pedals, left foot braking, right foot braking, heel and toe braking, clutching, not clutching, etc. But when they upshift, they DO lift the throttle, but do NOT clutch.

[Dibblah]

Any real life car that has a rev limiter will not be damaged by leaving the throttle to the floor when upshifting. Drag racers leave the hammer to the floor for the whole run and it has no ill effects.


You do realise that the drag car engines are rebuilt after just about every race, don't you?

Cheers,

Allan.

[Tillverkad]

In NR2003 of course, the engine damage model will quickly penalize you (with a blown engine or gear) for never lifting on upshift. Whereas in the current S2 alpha the engine damage modelling seems pretty generous and I get the impression you could shift at full-throttle all day without paying the price. (Not complaining about this and I realize that more accurate engine and gearbox damage simulation is almost certainly coming soon in LFS.)

If you're driving XRR in long races like in Endurance league (2 hours), you are surely slower in the end if you don't lift when shifting. In the first race at Westhill, my laptimes were 1 - 2 seconds lower during the last stint compared to the first stint, when I only flatshifted during the race.

[Turbo Dad]

I believe there are two types of rev limiter.

1st type is a fuel cut off , which stops the engine reving any further , but also causes the engine to run lean .This momentary lean condition has the potential of causing det = bang!

2nd type cuts the ignition which is much safer, not sure which type is used in game

[ajp71]

I think in real racing (I think, not know) that they do NOT flatshift, rather they shift without using the clutch.

Look here : http://www.750mc.co.uk/ and here http://www.monoposto.co.uk/

Mostly 1600 and 1800 CVH/Zetecs as well as Vauxhaul Lotus and Renault running on 4 speed Hewland boxes and intergrated racing clutches DO flatshift and DO NOT change clutchlessly (they can but it increases wear without a major advantage). Missing a gear is a big problem on the CVH as it always bends valves. All these cars will change flat but with clutch except the bike engines which have standard 6 speed sequential boxes.

[tristancliffe]

I believe there are two types of rev limiter.

1st type is a fuel cut off , which stops the engine reving any further , but also causes the engine to run lean .This momentary lean condition has the potential of causing det = bang!

2nd type cuts the ignition which is much safer, not sure which type is used in game

A third type, which applies to cars with fly-by-wire throttles, is the throttle limiter. The electronics stop more throttle being applied than the speed limit allows.

It is this type that LFS uses (I think).

[Theafro]

in most racing cars flat shifting will cause damage to the engine and transmission due to the vastly increased shock loads caused by high revs and torque being suddenly re-applied to the road (it's not much good for tyres or grip either)

the whole shift simulation needs to be improves on the whole. with gearbox damage caused by over eager shifting, resulting in a loss of speed or more missed gears etc

clutch wear would be interesting too but i don't think it should wear unless you're really hammering it:)

[ajp71]

in most racing cars flat shifting will cause damage to the engine and transmission

It depends what your talking about, important to differentiate between cars with production engines and gearboxes (most cars), those with production engines and full race boxes, straight cut gears intergrated full race clutch on production engines (FOX and maybe GTRs) and those on full race engines and boxes (FO8)

Read my first post, the cars I'm talking about are much like the FOX but with a 4 speed Hewland box, the motorbike engined cars (which have a six speed sequential box much like the FOX) flat shift as well (though I don't know what there clutch arrangement is). So I'm certain the FOX would be flat shifted in reality, not sure what system the F3000 uses but I'd have thought it would probably flat shift. I think all the other cars (including GTR) will not be able to flat shift.

[Shotglass]

not sure what system the F3000 uses but I'd have thought it would probably flat shift. I think all the other cars (including GTR) will not be able to flat shift.

the fo8 and gtrs (the big gtrs not the fwd ones) are modled after race cars that use semi automatic boxes that shift very fast so the engine doest even have time to rev up during a flat shift abd the real life car probably eben use fly by wire throttle cut on upshifts by momentarily cutting ignition when the driver preses the button

[Theafro]

yeah man, the reason you see a lot of this behavior IRL is the VAST amount of electronic gubbins those cars carry, to be fair LFS is rather missing some of the finer points changing gears, so we do have to treat things a little differently. :)

Tho' i'd quite like to see what happened to a GT car if you unchecked the 'rev cut on downshift' option in it's ECU:rolleyes2, and started 'flat shifting' in it!

[ajp71]

Maybe for the semi-automatic gearboxes there is a good deal of electronics, but certainly in smaller single seaters like the FOX can be changed flat on a 4 speed H shift, with absolutly no electronic gadgetry. No idea what modern Formula Renaults and F3 type single seaters do with there new 6 speed sequential boxes (how they've changed in 10 years :))

[Boris Lozac]

So.. no one can tell for sure how does these GTR-s, Formula, and other race cars drive..
Till recently i drove LFS with lifting my foot for a bit, when upshifting, and auto clutch ON, but i couldn't do good times with that driving, so watching how other drivers drive, i started flat shifting, leaving the clutch auto ON.. so now i have 1.32.800 on BL with GTI..
BUT, if real drivers do not drive like that, and they DO lift off the throttle when up(down) shifting, then i would like to see damaged engine for flatshifting.. the more real the better.. For now.. i will continue to flatshif because others also drive like that..

[Hallen]

So.. no one can tell for sure how does these GTR-s, Formula, and other race cars drive..
Till recently i drove LFS with lifting my foot for a bit, when upshifting, and auto clutch ON, but i couldn't do good times with that driving, so watching how other drivers drive, i started flat shifting, leaving the clutch auto ON.. so now i have 1.32.800 on BL with GTI..
BUT, if real drivers do not drive like that, and they DO lift off the throttle when up(down) shifting, then i would like to see damaged engine for flatshifting.. the more real the better.. For now.. i will continue to flatshif because others also drive like that..

Boris, what everybody is trying to say is that it depends on the car IRL. Some race cars have standard H type transmissions with clutch, some have sequential with clutch, and some have sequential with all the gadgets to allow flat shifting with no clutch.
For a standard car like the GTi, flat shifting will cause damage eventually IRL. The clutch, the engine, engine mounts, transmission mounts, drive shaft and differentially will all get hammered over and over again causing damage. You will always lift and blip when shifting in these cars. The point is not necessarily the max RPM's you hit, but the rapid change in RPM's that happen during this manuever.
For some sequential boxes, you can upshift without using the clutch, and some you need to lift and some you don't. Sports cars with sequential systems usually require that you use the clutch for downshifting and that you match revs by blipping the throttle. However, if the rules allow, just about any pure race car can have systems that allow for flat, no clutch shifts using the different methods listed above.

[axus]

I'm pretty sure that in a road car - everything except the MRT, formula cars and GTR cars - it would cause small engine damage but would not show up in under 500km of doing it as there is a rev limiter to stop you from taking the engine into revs it cannot handle. As someone else said, the rate of change of RPM would, however, cause damage. The question is weather this would show up in the engine in a normal race.

However I'm also pretty sure that it would lead to plenty of gearbox damage. Some 'ricers' power shift their engine (flatshift) and then replace the gearbox frequently. The question that should be asked is weather you will cover enough km's in one race for this to show up.

[Boris Lozac]

The question that should be asked is weather you will cover enough km's in one race for this to show up.

Yes, exactly what i was trying to ask all the time! :) Does flatshifting cause damage during a race, and is it to serious, to be expensive for teams..? I know that i surely would not drive my everyday car like that, but this is a race, and race cars that we are talking about, so.. ?

[ajp71]

expensive for teams..?

bend a valve: 8 valves £100
crack a piston: full rebuild £thousands

Miss a gear and one of these is likely to happen, thankfully bending valves is more likely. Those prices are for a CVH (Escort engine) a modern production based competition engine will cost a lot more, you've got 16 valves for a start :),

A basic new or reconditioned Hewland box and clutch (4 speed) is about £2750 but you've got to factor in adapting the car as racing parts are made in batches and it's not economical to remanufacture them (until they become eligable for historic racing). A Formula 3 spec box (which is about the FOX's spec) is £6150.

A sequential full race box and it's be more like £20715 for a GTR type and £28000 for a Le Mans Prototype spec endurance box.

My guess is an F3000 box would be around the £15000 mark.

http://www.hewland-engineering.co.uk/

[Cue-Ball]

You do realise that the drag car engines are rebuilt after just about every race, don't you?


Top fuel cars are rebuilt after each race. Most drag cars are NOT. Many of my friends drag race their cars on the weekend, then take them to work during the week. The only time their engines get rebuilt is when they break, which isn't very often considering they hit the rev limiter many times per pass, and make many passes per day. Many of these cars are driven HARD and have over 100,000 miles on them.

[jtr99]

Wow, thanks a lot guys. Fantastic and very educational feedback.

Bob: the wheel is a Thrustmaster Ferrari F1 Force Feedback -- I think that's what it said on the box. It's quite heavy duty with a big solid aluminium shifter bar across the back of the wheel.

(And nice aluminium pedals, although good old Thrustmaster / Guillemot saw fit to mount those aluminium pedals on a stupid plastic base, necessitating a bit of a rebuild with my carpentry 101 skills.)

[RIP2004]

Flat shifting isn't faster as proper use of clutch/throttle in a road car, except for a turbo perhabs. (because of pressure)

If you leave throttle while shifting with clutch rev will go up to the limiter. Next gear and then clutch will slip a bit before torque can be used to accelerate the car. Perhabs its faster with a real good racing or dragster clutch, but not in a road going car with usual clutch, because it won't be able to get the torque on the street while bringing rev to the rev of next gear.

It wouldn't be faster, it would heat up the clutch and damage it. An overheated clutch doesn't work that good ;)

[ajp71]

It depends on the engine, but with peaky RACE cams flat shifting will make a huge difference, as when lift you go out of the power and, unlike a road car there's almost no torque, same applies for full race Chevy and Ford V8s, despite being 5 litres they have very little torque, but a hell of a lot of power in the powerband.

[tristancliffe]

The revs in each gear are the same no matter if you flat shift or lift shift, so it makes no difference to the power band. Revs and Speed are a FIXED relationship (clutch and wheel slip permitting)

Of course, flat shifting is slightly quicker, so you'll less speed as you'll spend less time off the throttle, but this is only gonna be about 50rpm - not much really.

[Theafro]

Boris, what everybody is trying to say is that it depends on the car IRL. Some race cars have standard H type transmissions with clutch, some have sequential with clutch, and some have sequential with all the gadgets to allow flat shifting with no clutch.
For a standard car like the GTi, flat shifting will cause damage eventually IRL. The clutch, the engine, engine mounts, transmission mounts, drive shaft and differentially will all get hammered over and over again causing damage. You will always lift and blip when shifting in these cars. The point is not necessarily the max RPM's you hit, but the rapid change in RPM's that happen during this manuever.
For some sequential boxes, you can upshift without using the clutch, and some you need to lift and some you don't. Sports cars with sequential systems usually require that you use the clutch for downshifting and that you match revs by blipping the throttle. However, if the rules allow, just about any pure race car can have systems that allow for flat, no clutch shifts using the different methods listed above.

You put that far more lucidly that i ever could of, bang on!

the main thing to consider is that all the cars are different, you should take into account that the UF1000 shouldn't have a speed limiter, so, even if you're just revving it hard you'll star to cause damage (usually it's the valve bounce that naturally limits the rev's i can hear that ning,ning,ning noise like it was yesterday :))
whereas the GTI + turbo's would certainly have ecu's onboard and thus almost certainly have some rev protection.
the full on racers would all have programmable ecu's which are all mappable for all sorts of inputs and uses like speedlimiters, rev-limiters,throttle cut,Anti lag and of course that 'orrible traction control.
it's just a case of reflecting what sort of system that car would really have.

[RIP2004]

The revs in each gear are the same no matter if you flat shift or lift shift, so it makes no difference to the power band. Revs and Speed are a FIXED relationship (clutch and wheel slip permitting)

Of course, flat shifting is slightly quicker, so you'll less speed as you'll spend less time off the throttle, but this is only gonna be about 50rpm - not much really.

Think of the clutch. If you shift up rev in next gear has to be lower, because as you say Revs and Speed have a fixed relationship.

This difference between the revs of the engine and the revs of the wheels (gearbox) has to be equalized before engine torque can be transferred properly to the wheels. Thats exactly the task of the clutch. If you put your foot off the throttle while shifting, rev will decrease naturally because there is no connection and no throttle. Therefore rev difference between engine and wheels is lower when next gear gets in. Therefore clutch hasn't that much slip, because it hasn't that much difference to equalize.

If you stay on the throttle you even increase or stay at full revs. Difference between engine revs and revs in next gear is a big gap. This gap has to be closed by the clutch which slips as it tries to equalize full revs to the revs of the correct speed in next gear.
If the clutch slips it can't transfer full torque because it partly gets lost in the slippling clutch.
Your engine torque energy then is used to heat up clutch and not to accelerate the wheels/car.

I watched a lot of videos about that stuff. Watch Walther Röhrl accelerate a Porsche 911. He has a little start rev. Leaves the throttle like it is when he disengages the clutch. Only then, when foot is fully off the clutch he puts the foot on the throttle to the floor. Before clutch is disengaged it can't handle full throttle power.

Thats why it isn't faster in most cars. I don't know about Dragster gearboxes, but we are talking about street cars or usual race cars. Either they have a sequential gear box which cuts ignition automatically or you have to do that manually.

[Flying Squirrel]

You guys talk a lot about damage but very little on what happens in LFS during a race.

I normally drive with the aids off, short of the auto clutch as I don't have a 3 pedal system with a stick shift...maybe one day. I don't really try to rev match or anything when driving. It's odd cause I drive a manual in real life and always constantly make an effort to rev match both up and down gears. In real life, my car will lurch or buck, sometimes violently if I neglect my matching. LFS isn't so physical with you. Without the feeling, it's a lot harder to make an effort to do such things. About all I do in LFS is let off for a second between shifts so I don't bury the needle in the red. S1 punished you easily if you didn't. S2 doesn't seem to care so much. Still, I do it. In LFS for down shifts I don't even match the rpms, just gas off. For the road cars, it doesn't matter much unless you're cornering at the limit. You can upset the rear tires easily and start a drift. I drift a lot, so I personally don't care. I've gotten used to it. In the lower powered cars, it doesn't matter too much what you do with the gas pedal.

Now, when you're working with the Formula cars, it's a different story. If you're off with the matching, you're quite likely to whip the car around. When I first started driving the Formula cars, I actually put the blip and cut aids on to keep me from spinning out all the time. With so much power to the ground on such a light vehicle, delicate footwork becomes oh so much more critical. THIS is where things like flat footing becomes a no no. You just can't do it, not safely anyways.

If you're really working the limits of the car, I'd suggest making an effort to match rpms. If you're in a lazy mood, throw the auto blip and cut on. If you're not running the car at the limits all the time, you have some play room for mistakes and you can leave them off. I personally like them off as I have more fine control over what happens. It's quite helpful when drifting when you purposely want to upset the car. In racing, it may or may not be of use, maybe at times. For speed, eh, I guess that depends on if you screw up because of it. One mistake will take out any gain you would have gotten from it. It's up to you.

[Hallen]

I somewhat disagree with what you are saying Squirrel. With the formula cars, you don't need to lift on up shift. They shift so quickly, that you can shift flat and not cause any damage. Most real life formula cars use the electronically controlled throttle cut for shifting anyway so this is reasonably realistic.

For downshifts you definitely do need to mach the revs. You have to downshift quickly in the formula cars, so the blips come fast and furious. Automatic blips would be appropriate if you were driving something like an F1 car, but I am unsure about how the RL Formula 3000 or G2 GP cars work.

[Theafro]

to be honest you're all right, some of the time, like i said before the cars all need to be treated differently, and modelled differently.

the only reason ANY of those pro's can shift flat is because the car is designed to do that, be it electronic or mechanical design. I don't think we can say that you can flatshift a GTR or cannot do it in a GTI, it's merely down to what you're driving, and i'm driving LFS, so i'll lift 'n' blip for now 'cos it feels good. :)

BTW i can't remember EVER seeing a drag-racer shift flat (not like we are talking about - with manual gearboxes), 99% of drag racers use a auto-box, those who don't use 'em are almost certainly driving a road car, auto's are perfect for the strip due to a few things - no clutch to burn out or cock up shifting with, very very little actual break in power when you do shift, you've also got a torque converter so they'res not a massive amount of power instantly that would spin the wheels. (well not like a sidestepped clutch anyhow :))

[ajp71]

Of course, flat shifting is slightly quicker, so you'll less speed as you'll spend less time off the throttle, but this is only gonna be about 50rpm - not much really.

Normally you'd be right, but in a low powered (140 bhp) high downforce single seater the data analysis results are obvious. The FOX has more power (190 bhp) and most people run with very unrealistic low downforce setups. In reality everyone runs with a large amount of downforce and flatshifts, even at the fast tracks like Snett (and some cars spend a lot of time and money testing, and have knowledge from their Formula Renault racing).

[Bob Smith]

Depends how you look at it. The wing angles may be low but that undertray still produces loads of force. At top speed it's enough to increase the effective weight of the vehicle by two thirds. With both wings at maximum you can just about double the effective weight.

So even with the wings removed there's lots of downforce there.

[ajp71]

More the mindset when setting a car, IRL it tends to be maximise the downforce at the expense of straight line speed, in LFS the opposite. Not to say other options haven't been tried and failed, don't know why this is the case in LFS, to find the reasons you'd need accurate data for a Formula Renault car and a good understanding of car physics (neither of which I have got :))

[Cue-Ball]

BTW i can't remember EVER seeing a drag-racer shift flat (not like we are talking about - with manual gearboxes), 99% of drag racers use a auto-box, those who don't use 'em are almost certainly driving a road car, auto's are perfect for the strip due to a few things - no clutch to burn out or cock up shifting with, very very little actual break in power when you do shift, you've also got a torque converter so they'res not a massive amount of power instantly that would spin the wheels. (well not like a sidestepped clutch anyhow :))

Have you ever actually watched or participated in drag racing? :really: It is totally untrue that 99% of drag racers run automatics. Many do, but nowhere NEAR that amount. Many, many, MANY people drag race with a manual transmission. Manuals are lighter and cause less parasitic drag on the car (so more power gets to the wheels). Drag racing clutches rarely "burn out" because they are not designed to slip like a normal road car clutch. You prevent wheelspin by using slicks and proper rear suspension setup, not by using an automatic. Most drag racers who do use an automatic have very stiff shift kits installed and use high-RPM lockup stall converters so the power is transmitted very quickly, just like a manual tranny car. Many bracket racers tend to use an automatic because they're consistent, but a LOT of racers still use a manual tranny either because of it's advantages or because they like to row their own.

[Gunrall]

BUT, if real drivers do not drive like that, and they DO lift off the throttle when up(down) shifting, then i would like to see damaged engine for flatshifting.. the more real the better.. For now.. i will continue to flatshif because others also drive like that..

With a real Clio S1600 rallycar for example, you don't need to lift off when up shifthing (only when down). I think all WRC and all competitive S1600 employ that system.

In F1 i think too.

With Clio i'm totally sure i tried 1 last year.

[lucky]

I've raced some and have driven a lot of rally cars (from 70 HP group N to WRC) and race cars (up to supertouring & GT).
You can flatshift without damaging the engine in any (race or road car) trhat has rev-limiter. The damege to clutch/gearbox/engine mounts/joints... with flatshifting if you awoid doing 1-2 (and sometimwes 2-3, depending on power, gear ratios etc ...) is negligent. Not matching revs on downshifting will cause much more damage because shock loading is much greater than with flatshifting ...
Even if you're quite brutal, gearbox and other stuffv will usually take normal race without apparent damage (but will fail eventually if you do not rebuild it after that) ...