Why do LFS cars fly like ball?

[TyresHot]

Hi racers !!

i wonder that why lfs cars fliing?

when someone hits another,both cars becomes like balls and gets shooted other directions.sometimes when a car crashes to a wall, it flies at least 10 seconds.There is no doubt cars dont behave like that in real life.i have never seen or heard a car shooted to a hill by another car.

My question is this : is this a phsics problem that will be improved with the coming patches? Or this is nothing to care for lfs racers ?

[Robster230]

Hi racers !!

i wonder that why lfs cars fliing?

when someone hits another,both cars becomes like balls and gets shooted other directions.sometimes when a car crashes to a wall, it flies at least 10 seconds.There is no doubt cars dont behave like that in real life.i have never seen or heard a car shooted to a hill by another car.

My question is this : is this a phsics problem that will be improved with the coming patches? Or this is nothing to care for lfs racers ?


I've seen this plenty of times on my daily drive to work, perhapse you have only seen very heavy cars, lined with lead and stuff? :scratchch

Often on my journeys, i get clipped and spend the next 35 miles in the air, saves on fuel though!!

[TyresHot]

OMG LFS is too realistic,honesty lfs racers may mix real life and lfs!! i hope i understood right and succeed to describe.

[sil3ntwar]

combination of lag and the collision detection system i would say. Offline im fairly sure car to car explosions with the AI are rare. Could be wrong havent raced them for awhile :)

[R3DMAN]

its the colision detection system, i dont know when it will be fixed but it will be, maybe by the time S2 is finally released then it may be sorted.

[AndroidXP]

It's caused by a not yet finished collision detection. Also this subject has been brought up about a million times. :sleep1:

[TyresHot]

Lag cant be blamed for this.Collision detection system? i dunno what is this.

[Greboth]

AFAIK the collision detection works by looking how far two object overlap so it knows the forces involved (or something like that) but if you introduce lag into this the cars could overlap alot while one player is lagging then when the next packet of data for the car theres a large overlap so the cars get thrown apart.

[St4Lk3R]

the system that detects wether cars touch each other or not.

[al heeley]

theres no crumple zones (yet) to help absorb the energy of a collision.

[SchneeFee]

When Crashing the energy isnt absorbed by the chassis like IRL, and so the crash-energy shoots the cars in the orbit.:D

[sil3ntwar]

AFAIK the collision detection works by looking how far two object overlap so it knows the forces involved (or something like that) but if you introduce lag into this the cars could overlap alot while one player is lagging then when the next packet of data for the car theres a large overlap so the cars get thrown apart.exactly :thumb:

[SniperX]

Each cars position are calculated at a given frequency think its 100 hz.
When two cars come close, in one calculation there are "spare room" but the next calculation the cars are within each others "space" and booom... sky-high.. A litle bit of lag/latency between the two players adds up to this..

I would be very surprised if this is not fixed in S2 Full

Edit: Whohaa.. lots of reply's :-)

[TyresHot]

its already surprising for me that is hasnt fixed yet.because its a big bug.

[Robster230]

Am I the only one that sees this in day to day driving?! ;)

[danowat]

Am I the only one that sees this in day to day driving?! ;)

Nope, bikes bounce off cars quite well :scratchch :thumb:

Dan,

[JeffR]

Now I want to find that Grand Prix Legends replay where a car spins on it's nose for about a minute. Cool looking crashes are a plus in my opinion.

[JeffR]

It's not a big bug - the point of racing is NOT to hit each other.Even in NASCAR?Thus if you are a good racer you'll never experience itRacers shouldn't lock up the wheels either during braking, but how much development time has gone into trying to model flat spotting and hot spots? (IMO, I never thought it was needed, especially since the implementation involves comprimises like segmenting a tire).

[danowat]

Even in NASCAR?Racers shouldn't lock up the wheels either during braking, but how much development time has gone into trying to model flat spotting and hot spots? (IMO, I never thought it was needed, especially since the implementation involves comprimises like segmenting a tire).

You're kidding right?.

1) This aint bloody NASCAR

2) Contact is actually against the rules in most motorsports where as locking up the brakes is not, and its something that happens with huge regularity on the circuit.

:shrug:

Dan,

[Vykos69]

BTT: It's not a LFS related BUG, it's an Online Racing Game bug, where collisions take part. There is actually NO way to totally prevend that, except allowing the cars to dive into each other a bit. Every Racing Sim has that, that in a short LAG and both cars heading towards same position, they might appear to be inside the other car then. And a proper physics calculation of collisions will then reverb the force, which would be realistically needed to "dive" that much into the other car onto both cars in the reversed direction. With some physics understanding, you'll see, that the momentum put on the cars then is quite big. That'll leap them anywhere. This happened to me in every other sim too once or twice. It's just a matter of LAG.

[Robster230]

Was anyone else on the Redline Racing 3 server last night when some bloke called Proof was wrecking all over the place? Sure I saw the biggest air i've ever seen in lfs, it was so funny (not the wrecking) I nearly coughed my dinner up.

[tristancliffe]

Even in NASCAR?Racers shouldn't lock up the wheels either during braking, but how much development time has gone into trying to model flat spotting and hot spots? (IMO, I never thought it was needed, especially since the implementation involves comprimises like segmenting a tire).

You need to work on your understanding of irony and sarcasm mate. It's not the first time you've been caught out, and whilst your nationality goes some way to explain your inability, it's been long enough.

Even in NASCAR hitting each other isn't permitted. Rubbing maybe, and this is fine in LFS except in the laggiest situations, but not hitting.

And no, we aren't meant to flatspot tyres etc, but locking a wheel is a somewhat smaller mistake. And what compromise of splitting it into segments. It works, it has no downsides, and will be adaptable for any wheeled vehicle. It might even be 'easy' to make it have 1000 segments when PC's are powerful enough.

Really Jeff, pay attention.

[cmckowen]

ok,agreed,

i only wanted to get help from people and help people.it was my exciting did that.i will try to post rarely.i will talk lfs on msn with my buddies.

I think more what people are trying to say is that when thinking of something or a bug, for instance this crashing, use the search.

You will most probably find something mentioned before in the forum somewhere, have a read through and if needed post your new idea's and get that topic running again. And if you dont find anything then your welcome to start a new topic with your help. :)

We are a community here and are not wishing to push racers out of it, we just rather ask posters to be check before creating a new topic. :thumb:

[al heeley]

Even in NASCAR hitting each other isn't permitted. Rubbing maybe..
What was all that fuss in last year's season about bump-drafting? Quite a speed advantage, I was led to believe especially for the big tracks like Talla, and they specially reinforced the cars to withstand a little 'jostling in the pack' without falling apart. A few of the Nascar old timers got hot about how potentially dangerous this practice was but if they didn't follow suit they would no longer have a chance of being competitive. I think thats how it went anyway. i'm not up-to-speed on the current season so maybe they have introduced some rules to now discourage the practice.

[martine_wedlake]

BTT: It's not a LFS related BUG, it's an Online Racing Game bug, where collisions take part. There is actually NO way to totally prevend that, except allowing the cars to dive into each other a bit. Every Racing Sim has that, that in a short LAG and both cars heading towards same position, they might appear to be inside the other car then. And a proper physics calculation of collisions will then reverb the force, which would be realistically needed to "dive" that much into the other car onto both cars in the reversed direction. With some physics understanding, you'll see, that the momentum put on the cars then is quite big. That'll leap them anywhere. This happened to me in every other sim too once or twice. It's just a matter of LAG.

Pardon me if I hijack the thread for a little bit, but I don't really agree with the above; especially the part that "with some physics understanding, you'll see, that the momentup put on the cars then is quite big."

Seems to me that all this applies only when you have inelastic collisions... then the energy represented by the overlap goes directly into reactive force (generating large momentum). But, cars are not inelastic -- they crumple -- thus a vast portion of that energy should really dissapate into the bodywork, suspension, etc and only a little bit go into the reactive force.

Even though LFS does not today have a fully implemented damage model, seems like it could at least pull out that part of the energy and apply only a small portion of the remaining energy toward the change in momentum. Of course, until you have a complete damage model, you'll need to estimate the dissapated energy instead of calculate it... but you get the idea.

[bbman]

Well, you see, Jo is telling about games, you are telling about RL, where there is no such thing as frequencies when it is checked if there happened a collision since the last check... When you add lag to the virtual representation, than you can have a situation like this: two cars that were, say 1 m apart at the last check, suddenly are -0.5 m apart... So it's a difference of 1.5 m in a 100th of a second... That makes some serious impact energy... ;)

[jtr99]

Tristan and Dan, I take it you've watched BTCC races recently? Not saying those guys are models of good racing etiquette (much the opposite) but it is a real-life UK series in which a ton of contact occurs and seems by many to be regarded as all part of the action. So it doesn't seem fair to suggest that NASCAR is the only exception to a general motorsports principle that hitting other cars is bad.

[TagForce]

Well, you see, Jo is telling about games, you are telling about RL, where there is no such thing as frequencies when it is checked if there happened a collision since the last check... When you add lag to the virtual representation, than you can have a situation like this: two cars that were, say 1 m apart at the last check, suddenly are -0.5 m apart... So it's a difference of 1.5 m in a 100th of a second... That makes some serious impact energy... ;)

And physics limitations in the engine (as well as real life) dictate that a car cannot accelerate in any direction at 1.5m/0.01s/0.01s. So these weird calculations can be avoided (quite easily by taking more than 1 last checkpoint into account and interpolating the energy at which the actual collision took place).

Mind you, crashes because of lag will still happen (where cars simply get into eachother because of the collision detection), but the result of that can still be a realistic crash or slide. LFS is doing ok, just needs the final wrinkles ironed out of the collision detection.

[tristancliffe]

I have watched a few BTCC races this season, and due to the exceptionally low standard of driving and racing I don't bother anymore. Yes, you'll find some low grade series all over the world where hitting takes place, but that doesn't make it right.

In LFS surely we should strive to be the best, and not accept substandard driving, like in the BTCC, as our benchmark!

[the_angry_angel]

Well, you see, Jo is telling about games, you are telling about RL, where there is no such thing as frequenciesGiven the speed of light is the maximum known speed that anything can travel at, I'd argue that there is a maximum sampling rate in the "real world", which is why nuts things happen sometimes. But if they do exist, then they're too high to be worth considering :p

[jtr99]

In LFS surely we should strive to be the best, and not accept substandard driving, like in the BTCC, as our benchmark!

Completely agree. I guess my point is that in the meantime, while we're striving towards eventual perfection (:)) it might help to get some good collision and damage modelling into the game. When people really pay the price for their carelessness, particularly in the open-wheelers, then maybe standards will improve.

[JeffR]

You need to work on your understanding of irony and sarcasm mate. It's not the first time you've been caught out, and whilst your nationality goes some way to explain your inability, it's been long enough.If only you guys from the UK and Europe would get a proper sense of humor and learn proper English, the way us folks from the USA, and especially Texas (although I'm in California now) do.

Even in NASCAR hitting each other isn't permitted.The most recent race was won by Brian Vickers who crashed Dale Earnhardt Jr. and Jimmie Johnson on the final lap bump drafting. Some didn't like it, other's said it was just racing. Apparently, just like fighting in USA ice hockey, us Americans like the NASCAR format designed to provide lots of entertaining crashes. Combining the two, we need more racing games that include post race fights.

(A bit out of touch with the tone of my reply, some forms of racing, like go-karts, involve a lot of contact. OK, all seriousness aside now).

And no, we aren't meant to flatspot tyres etc, but locking a wheel is a somewhat smaller mistake. Really Jeff, pay attention.Us folks in the USA have short attention spans. If it wasn't for beer, even NASCAR wouldn't be popular. I don't drink, so maybe that's why I'm not a fan.

Getting back on topic, there have been a lot of posts of replays and movies from the grandaddy of racing sims, Grand Prix Legends, of spectacular but unrealistic crashes. Plus GPL has a cool damage mode where the cars just fly apart after a good crash. Why else put those buildings at the Masta kink at Spa, or the tree so well positioned just before Adenauer Forst at Nordschleife?

[Vykos69]

Pardon me if I hijack the thread for a little bit, but I don't really agree with the above; especially the part that "with some physics understanding, you'll see, that the momentup put on the cars then is quite big."

Seems to me that all this applies only when you have inelastic collisions... then the energy represented by the overlap goes directly into reactive force (generating large momentum). But, cars are not inelastic -- they crumple -- thus a vast portion of that energy should really dissapate into the bodywork, suspension, etc and only a little bit go into the reactive force.

Even though LFS does not today have a fully implemented damage model, seems like it could at least pull out that part of the energy and apply only a small portion of the remaining energy toward the change in momentum. Of course, until you have a complete damage model, you'll need to estimate the dissapated energy instead of calculate it... but you get the idea.

well, as said way up in that thread, the momentum is calculated for some kind of inelastic collision. It's easier to calculate, simple thing.

[Tick]

All my cars in LFS are made of rubber!:shrug:

If you dont collide with another car it wont happen!:D

It will be fixed, Give it time, You cant rush perfection!:thumb:

Just look at EA! :pillepall

Tick

[al heeley]

Post cleaned, everything O/T or personal removed. Please carry on.

[AndroidXP]

I just noticed this (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=13525) hasn't been posted yet. :tilt:

[KiDCoDEa]

Post cleaned, everything O/T or personal removed. Please carry on.

wtf?
plz bring my posts back.
a joy to read, and they cure cancer.
all the hot chicks are crying now.

[Dajmin]

I don't think the car to car collision system is a priority. Like has already been said - the idea is not to hit the other racers. And when you do, how often is it at a speed high enough to cause such a huge catapult?
Yes it needs worked on, but there are way more important things.

[BBO@BSR]

I don't think the car to car collision system is a priority. Like has already been said - the idea is not to hit the other racers. And when you do, how often is it at a speed high enough to cause such a huge catapult?
Yes it needs worked on, but there are way more important things.

I totally agree.

On the other hand when I did my first lap with GTR2, I hitted a curb really hard and then the car was catapulted straight up vertical into the air (for almost 3 secs). I really had to laugh about it.
So for me it has happend in most of the other finished "sim" games even if no other cars were involved.
It's not an LFS special bug/feature ;)

[KiDCoDEa]

WHY WERE MY POSTS REMOVED FROM THIS THREAD? OMG THE WORLD IS COLLAPSING! MY PAST IS BEING ERASED BY THE BIGBROTHER!!11

i dont waste my time participating in a forum to get them removed without warning or reason.

they are vital to the earth orbit and therefore shouldn't ever be dealt with frivolousness.

[al heeley]

I know its very sad to have to remove your inspired flashes of poetic brilliance, they really brightened up my day but they were, along with 50% of the other posts on this thread (ibncluding this one too) totally nothing to do with the subject of the thread, and several requests were received to put it through a wash cycle. Sadly I had the water temperature set too high and your posts were removed in the wash too.

[KiDCoDEa]

but they were, along with 50% of the other posts on this thread (ibncluding this one too) totally nothing to do with the subject of the thread

PLEASE bring my posts back.
my posts were about lag , which is on-topic. if you cant understand something dont assume its evil or offtopic.
why were they removed along with whatever?
this is not ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL SUBJECTIVE APPRECIATION OF THE INHERENT QUALITY OF MY POSTS.
THEY OBEYED RULES AND ARE ON TOPIC PLEASE BRING THEM BACK TO THIS THREAD.
abuse of power, where can i delete that?

[al heeley]

It pains me to admit that I know of no way your posts can be retrieved from the virtual garbage dump of the cyber forum. They will live on as a fond but fleeting memory in the ether of our consciousness. This is not a personal judgement of the quality of your posts but a trivial box-ticking error by an inept moderator who believes that everything constructive to be discussed about the topic of cars acting like balls has probably already been voiced, viewed and ingested by whatever members of the forum were interested.
As such, any personal feelings of dissatisfaction or persecution stemming from this outrageous injustice, no matter how justified, also do not have a place on this bouncy ball car thread.
I can only extend my own deep and personal regret at the demise of your posts and hope that, once you have administered solace to the hot chicks in distress, you can appeal to the generous side of your nature to forgive my indiscretion on this matter.

[xWolFx]

My posts weren't really useless, I was discussing something with android :tilt:

[CSU1]

____________________Burn this thread!__________________________
--------------------------The End ----------------------------------

[KiDCoDEa]

It pains me to admit that I know of no way your posts can be retrieved from the virtual garbage dump of the cyber forum.

if you're that inept, what are you doing as mod? Leave room for fair, balanced, patient diplomatic people that know how and when to tick boxes.

[AndroidXP]

My goodness. This thread went completely :insane:


Seriously, the cleanup was for the better, but at the current rate of OT posts (like this), the only viable thread state is

http://members.chello.at/fam-jelinek/christian/emoticons/lockage.gif

[KiDCoDEa]

i want the mod mistake to be corrected. as a matter of principle, please some mod whose not inept, bring back my posts (others can speak for themselves).

[al heeley]

I've seen better posts from you Kid. Don't disappoint us now, if i fall on my sword here i'll make a real mess of the carpet.

[KiDCoDEa]

this is not a competition to entertain you.
stop judging posts as if their only value is how much they entertain you.
this forum is not a let's entertain mr heeley mod ego forum.
i've been polite and requested since yesterday for my posts to be back.
do you really need to test how commited i am to a matter of principle? do it somewhere else, not here please.
please bring my 2 posts back, from this thread original 3 pages state. i'll delete all my posts requesting that, when you do it. thanks.

[Vykos69]

sometimes I wonder if mods just feel the need to do anything. The moment a mod comes to the spotlight, other people complaining about their moved/edited/deleted threads, he did something wrong imho.

[xWolFx]

dude, stop complaining, I dont care that he deleted my posts, if he feels he should have that means he should have, now stop your whining and grow up. :nod:

[TagForce]

sometimes I wonder if mods just feel the need to do anything. The moment a mod comes to the spotlight, other people complaining about their moved/edited/deleted threads, he did something wrong imho.

Mods will always get complaints, whatever they do...
There was a time we didn't see mods for a while, and there were complaints nothing was being done. Now that that's changed, they get complaints too much is deleted.

The mods run this show for the most part. If you don't like what they did, go to the feedback section of the forum (which isn't here, so PM the mod)...
Don't waste valuable forum space with completely off-topic complaints.

[KiDCoDEa]

dude, stop complaining, I dont care that he deleted my posts, if he feels he should have that means he should have, now stop your whining and grow up.

so the fact i care means i need to grow up?
indeed when im 90y old i prolly would have stopped caring...

fact is, had he done no action whatsoever, this thread would be a lot better, with more lag poetic and entertainment value, with less ot and less prepotency.

[Vykos69]

Mods will always get complaints, whatever they do...
There was a time we didn't see mods for a while, and there were complaints nothing was being done. Now that that's changed, they get complaints too much is deleted.

The mods run this show for the most part. If you don't like what they did, go to the feedback section of the forum (which isn't here, so PM the mod)...
Don't waste valuable forum space with completely off-topic complaints.
sure they get complaints. You wonder? And if they get complaints about too much deletion, then they should think about that. There was seriously no reason to delete anything in here. People got ok with it, replied to posts they wanted etc. Now you have the mess, cause here are people that complain. So who made the mistake here?

IMHO there are only a few things, a mod should delete: Links to pron, offensive material as racist shit, spam from forum spammers and advertisement stuff. Nothing of that was in this thread here...

[TagForce]

so the fact i care means i need to grow up?
indeed when im 90y old i prolly would have stopped caring...

fact is, had he done no action whatsoever, this thread would be a lot better, with more lag poetic and entertainment value, with less ot and less prepotency.

And how long do you think it would take to delete the current discussion?
If you have complaints, don't do it on the thread, but go to PM (a feedback forum is what we apparently need but don't have as yet).

[TagForce]

sure they get complaints. You wonder? And if they get complaints about too much deletion, then they should think about that. There was seriously no reason to delete anything in here. People got ok with it, replied to posts they wanted etc. Now you have the mess, cause here are people that complain. So who made the mistake here?

IMHO there are only a few things, a mod should delete: Links to pron, offensive material as racist shit, spam from forum spammers and advertisement stuff. Nothing of that was in this thread here...

It doesn't matter who made the mistake... My point was that they'll always get complaints. I for one am glad something is happening that could be considered moderation on the boards (although it should be done even more and stricter imho). We needed it after the last 'crisis'.

Ultimately, the mods can do whatever they want. And yes, they make mistakes, and Al has 'kind of' admitted he could've left the posts as is (at least Kid's ones)... If Kid has a problem with his posts being gone forever, I suggested he'd take it up in PM, and not here, as this whole discussion is off-topic.

[KiDCoDEa]

And how long do you think it would take to delete the current discussion?
If you have complaints, don't do it on the thread, but go to PM (a feedback forum is what we apparently need but don't have as yet).

if you are really interested in that, pick one or several:

-i dont go to pm because it was a collective deletion, a collective issue, that interests a lotta people not just myself. any fruitful discussion in private would have trouble explaining itself publically later on.
-i dont go to pm because i had no pm either, telling me why it was deleted without warning, to start with.
-i dont go to pm because im scared of mods ego and sexual allure.
-i dont go to pm because i have the option to not go to pm

if anything, i am being overpolite for the treatment im getting.
i care about my posts being deleted, because i cared to post in the first place.
its a matter of principle, if i take my time to contribute to this place by posting, i dont expect someone self-assumed inept, to delete them for me
without a reason, warning or whatever.

[Renku]

I don't think the car to car collision system is a priority. Like has already been said - the idea is not to hit the other racers. And when you do, how often is it at a speed high enough to cause such a huge catapult?
Yes it needs worked on, but there are way more important things.
Collision detection system SHOULD be a priority!! I've seen to much wallsliding in hotlaps, even WR's. There was one SO4 patch Q era WR (wallsliding 3 times in one lap) that was driven by a well known LFS'er and anther 3rd place HL on SO3 that had a major BANG to the wall just before the last left turn. So YES there should be a update to CD with S2 final.

[Bob Smith]

IMHO there are only a few things, a mod should delete: Links to pron, offensive material as racist shit, spam from forum spammers and advertisement stuff. Nothing of that was in this thread here...
I'd say there is more than that to do. We need to generally keep the forums tidy, organised, keep threads on track, and remove other offensive material. Racism, politics, religion, threats, etc, none of that we want on here. It's better for everyone in the end if everyone plays nice. A forum (well, this forum at least) is not a place to vent anger.

[TagForce]

if you are really interested in that, pick one or several:

-i dont go to pm because it was a collective deletion, a collective issue, that interests a lotta people not just myself. any fruitful discussion in private would have trouble explaining itself publically later on.
-i dont go to pm because i had no pm either, telling me why it was deleted without warning, to start with.
-i dont go to pm because im scared of mods ego and sexual allure.
-i dont go to pm because i have the option to not go to pm

if anything, i am being overpolite for the treatment im getting.
i care about my posts being deleted, because i cared to post in the first place.
its a matter of principle, if i take my time to contribute to this place by posting, i dont expect someone self-assumed inept, to delete them for me
without a reason, warning or whatever.

Apparently, even if it's just for you, we need a feedback forum...
You wouldn't have to go to PM, and this thread would remain on-topic.
That was the reason posts were deleted in the first place.

btw, a reason WAS given... So it was a mistake. Sorry for the loss of your posts, but life goes on. Leave it at that.

(I'd be a much stricter mod than all the mods on here combined, so just be glad I'm not one ;))

[al heeley]

This debate does not belong on this thread.

[Vykos69]

This debate does not belong on this thread.
your job to solve that.

[KiDCoDEa]

A forum (well, this forum at least) is not a place to vent anger.

pinpoint where in my original posts is the anger. if u cant, while you're at it, bring em back, thanks.

This debate does not belong on this thread.

this debate is a direct consequence of your previous action. what better evaluation of your actions than what they cause?


btw, a reason WAS given... So it was a mistake. Sorry for the loss of your posts, but life goes on.

A hipocrite reason was given after i complained, not before. the reason given is not valid, coz if they want the posts can be brought back. posts are moved and not deleted. assuming they know that i know how vbulletin works, every effort is being made so that i think this mistake is of the intentional kind. there are those you know.

[Scawen]

I am just going to step in and close the thread.

The reason why is : all the points have been made, from both sides of the discussion. The moderators and the moderated have made their points. Neither side will ever back down 100% so the argument will never be won if it continues. And no more will be said than has already been said.

I will just close the thread and the people involved in the argument can just consider to themselves how to avoid the conflict in future. And whether they will act differently or not will be up to them.

The moderators do a very good job on this forum, but they cannot be perfect and keep all people happy all the time, and there are just occasionally times when some post have been unrecoverably deleted by mistake. They cannot spend so long considering all possible consequences of every action, with a whole forum to keep tidy, But they always learn from their mistakes, as do forum users. I am very grateful for the work the moderaters do keeping the forum tidy and basically in order.