Spinoff : Patch U22 sound discussions

[Scawen]

WARNING : THIS IS A TEST WHICH IS LIKELY TO HAVE PROBLEMS

The sound system now works in a very different way! It's just the same old sounds but they don't use a prediction based on a position reported by Windows, instead they use a callback. This is supposed to fix the Windows Vista sound bug, and should, I hope, provide more responsive sound in other versions of Windows as well, and possibly give slight performance increase. But the changes are extensive and different parts of the program are trying to run at the same time, so there really might be some mysterious problems. There is no more "Sound Lag" slider bar.

Test Patch U22 contains some fixes for U21 - including smaller, more frequent sound blocks. You can change the number of these with a new "Sound Blocks" control in Misc Options. Each block is equivalent to approx 1/20th of a second of sound lag.

Changes in TEST PATCH U22 :

Engine sound can now be heard from a greater distance
Sound blocks reduced in size for more responsive sound
New setting : Options... Misc... Sound Blocks (default 2)

FIX : S1 hosts were invisible in S2 list of games after refresh
FIX : Skid and scrape sounds are now bounded to reasonable level

Changes in TEST PATCH U21 :

New strings for buttons : end race, spectate, join (were shared)
New string "play" instead of "OK" button in replay select screen
HLVC : NEXT lap is now not invalidated by driving the wrong way
S2 users can now see and join S1 hosts in List of Games screen
S1 users can now use the automatic skin download system
Included Czech translation of training lessons

FIX : When REV config replay was selected, REV was not displayed
FIX : When there were no SPR replays, MPR vanished from ALL view
FIX : Rare problem causing your car to vanish on other computers
FIX : Could not view user names in replay if MP mode was Demo
FIX : Bug in camera position height part of sound calculation
FIX : Unlocking is now possible in Windows Vista 64-bit
FIX : Sound should now work correctly in Windows Vista

NOTE : Translatable text updated

DOWNLOAD :

TEST PATCH U22 :
www.liveforspeed.net/file_lfs.php?name=LFS_U22_TEST.zip

DEDICATED HOST U22 (for hosting only) :
www.liveforspeed.net/file_lfs.php?name=LFS_S2_DEDI_U22.zip

[Tweaker]

RE: U22

I am getting these "pops" when at low idle with the BF1. Changing the sound block to 1 - 5, doesn't make a difference.

I tried to record it, but it doesn't show up as well. But I notice it happens the most when the "echo" feature is being used more. So for instance in this sound clip, I parked next to the side wall on the oval and it would start popping pretty loud.

-Audigy 2

[nesrulz]

New setting : Options... Misc... Sound Blocks (default 2)

Ok, this fix sound latency (when is set on 1), but i still have "pops", with all cars.
Like as Tweaker (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=232962#post232962).

But I notice it happens the most when the "echo" feature is being used more.
Maybe.

[Dredd]

park the car away from barrier/sidewall, i find sound ok

[nesrulz]

park the car away from barrier/sidewall, i find sound ok
Yes, in (Blackwood Car Park) or (Autocross) is ok...

So..."echo"...

[Tweaker]

park the car away from barrier/sidewall, i find sound ok
Yes it sounds fine when you are away from things that create echoing. But if you are close to places that create echo (or are in tunnels/under-bridges or whatever), you get some popping. This is mostly prominent when near walls like in South City. But it goes down if you turn down your echo volume, and car/master volume in the game. It doesn't go away, but it just decreases it.

Smack, Crackle, Pop!

The boost audio system only makes things worse, which I find wierd. Scawen, I've always wondered why it acts funny for me, especially the volume levels. Because to have the volume of my car match other audio sources like music, video, etc... I need to have the car volume boost at 15.0 or 20.0. This matches my normal output volume. However, LFS seems to always run at a lower volume to try and alleviate hiss and pops or something. And so by default you have it at 10.0 and that is about half the volume for LFS, and I can hardly hear it. I do not like turning up the car volume in LFS to anything above 10.0 because it will just create pops (even though 10 still does it). So I have to keep it at 10, and always raise the volume of my computer or speakers to get what I want. But then my music is extremely loud. This isn't a problem with my wave volume sliders or whatever on my system.... everything else is pretty much equalized in terms of volume, but LFS is always softer, and needs to be softer to not have popping. I've had this popping in LFS before U21/22, but these latest patches seem to make the popping worse for me. And the boost audio systems in LFS always have acted strangely, and the boost just LESSENS the quality, and creates a lot of distortion when at high settings. I'd like to have more echo, and more car volume, without increasing my main system volume.... but that is just not possible without crackling.

[NotAnIllusion]

I still experience sound lag with U22 regardless of what value I use in the 'Sound Blocks' setting, as well as the popping when driving close to a wall :thumb:

The patch should not lock it back to demo mode, didn't for me.

[Scawen]

I still experience sound lag with U22 regardless of what value I use in the 'Sound Blocks' setting, as well as the popping when driving close to a wall :thumb:When you say "still" what do you mean - what are you comparing it with? U21 or U20?

Please can anyone who describes the sound, tell me what operating system they are using and how it compares with old versions of LFS.

[NotAnIllusion]

Athlon XP 64-bit, WinXP Pro w/SP2 32-bit

U22 vs U21: sound lag is there, perhaps marginally, and I mean in the tiniest sense it might be less than in U21, but definitely noticeable.

U22 and U21 vs U20: U20 has no sound issues whatsoever, the latter two test patches have lag and at least U22 has popping when driving next to a wall.

[Tweaker]

Please can anyone who describes the sound, tell me what operating system they are using and how it compares with old versions of LFS.
The popping has happened for me ever since S2 has been out iirc. The echo had always created some distortion for the wind and reverberated car noises off objects. Though, compared.... U22 has a lot more noticeable popping. And even now at idle with the BF1, I get popping, and I don't recall having that problem ever.

Windows XP SP2
Audigy 2 ZS

[Scawen]

I am getting these "pops" when at low idle with the BF1. Changing the sound block to 1 - 5, doesn't make a difference.

I tried to record it, but it doesn't show up as well. But I notice it happens the most when the "echo" feature is being used more. So for instance in this sound clip, I parked next to the side wall on the oval and it would start popping pretty loud.Ok, this bug I can reproduce. I agree, it's not well reproduced in your MP3, not really clear. But it becomes clear simply by driving a GTI beside the wall in South City, and that's a definite U21 / U22 bug, compared with U20. That is a LFS bug and should definitely be possible to fix and I'll try that today. Though I must say, I would decribe it as crackling not popping. Maybe it depends on what speakers you have though. And really, the one I am talking about is a new thing in U21 / U22 and not in U20 at all.

What I'm worried about is people reporting Sound Lag and skipping (sound breaking up). This new system was supposed to prevent that kind of thing. The new system should have eliminated the need for the Sound Blocks setting or any kind of techy setting like that. I need to know which operating systems have that issue, and how low people can go with Sound Blocks. Default is 2 but lag is less when set to 1, but skipping becomes more likely (if there is a frame rate glitch).

[Tweaker]

Yeah the sound lag before would cause problems if I turned it down to 0.10 in the older versions. This would create skipping with the sound, and actually drop framerate if I was around a few cars (sp or mp)! But now this block system is probably better, as I shouldn't have any problem as severe as the sound lag option. Though, I still need to test it with several cars and see what happens.

And yeah crackling is a better word I guess. I have a nice set of speakers and headphones, and the feedback from them is quite good so I hear things like this. If I just had a cheapo set, I'd probably not hear much and it would be muffled. My friend has better ears than me, and makes music for a living. He hears crackling and even some whines for some cars, which is kind of odd. I think I've heard those before, but not sure.

[Scawen]

While I'm looking at that echo crackling bug, I'd really like to see if we can see any kind of pattern with those who experience SOUND LAG or SKIPPING when driving normally. Also I'd like to hear from anyone with Vista, if it does work well now (remember U20 sound did not work in Vista unless you put the Sound Lag up high).

So... the questions to answer :

1) Do you get lag (delay when pressing throttle) or skipping (gaps in sound)
2) Can it be solved by changing Options/Misc/Sound Blocks setting
3) What operating system do you have, 98, XP, Vista32, Vista64
4) What hardware : sound card + drivers if you can find that info

[Misko]

Tweaker, the problem you have with levels is a widespread "loudness war" in pop music production, and they use expensive multiband compressors and limiters to achieve those high levels without distortion, so I wouldn't worry about music being louder on average than dynamic LFS sound. Thats just normal. :) If LFS was to acheve those levels (and destroy dynamic variations btw) Scawen would need to hook some kind of limiter at the final stage of internal LFS sound mixer. Which is not impossible since he already put a simple echo in there. I'd like to see boost in LFS to be limited to something like 14 or even less. I'm quite appaled to hear many LFSers just crank that up and yet say that it sounds better. Don't they have any ears. ;) Sorry for the slight off-topic, working with sound is my job, so I notice more. :)

I just tested U22 breifly. I have Win XP SP1, SB Live with kX drivers, and it works well, even with Sound Blocks set to 1. There are very occasional pops and crackles and much more of them when echo is heard. Especially noticable in quieter road cars. Default Sound Blocks on 2 works better, of course, but still crackles close to walls. (if 1 block is 1/20th of a second then 2 blocks is old minimal setting of 0.10s, and 1 block would be 0.05s, right?) Btw, I never had any hearable sound lag in U20 and U22, in both I used 0.10s without problems.

Also, like someone else wrote, BF1 engine sound is notably kinda out of sync within itself: shifts and TC sounds different, sometimes sharper sometimes softer. Seems like little parts of sound get lost and skipped at the edges of those sound blocks. I think same thing happens in all the cars, like when revs go down in next gear after flat shifting in RAC for example, just that is less noticable because BF1 sound is most complex and things change very quickly in it.

[St4Lk3R]

Other Problem that may be connected with the sound now being generated in a different thread:

I was racing in a grid of 10 people this morning, and on start I got massive FPS problems (3 FPS :pillepall) and sound was only hearable whenever a new frame became visible. It sounded a bit like when you TAB between cars quickly. This problem occured in all earlier patches as well, BUT there I had 15FPS on start, not 3.

System: 1,4GHz P4, R9800Pro, 1GB RAM, Onboard AC'97 Soundcard. Win XP SP2 + All Hotfixes till August 2006.

[Dredd]

While I'm looking at that echo crackling bug, I'd really like to see if we can see any kind of pattern with those who experience SOUND LAG or SKIPPING when driving normally. Also I'd like to hear from anyone with Vista, if it does work well now (remember U20 sound did not work in Vista unless you put the Sound Lag up high).

So... the questions to answer :

1) Do you get lag (delay when pressing throttle) or skipping (gaps in sound)
2) Can it be solved by changing Options/Misc/Sound Blocks setting
3) What operating system do you have, 98, XP, Vista32, Vista64
4) What hardware : sound card + drivers if you can find that info

in windows vista32,

i get skipping and crackling really bad at sound blocks setting 2 when just driving any car on any track, but its bit better using settting 3, but 4 and 5 remove it completely , i just get cracking sound when close to barrier/sidewall

not sure if lag still there, been using really high sound lag settings for long time :(

using nf4 onboard sound,

[Misko]

1) Do you get lag (delay when pressing throttle) or skipping (gaps in sound)
2) Can it be solved by changing Options/Misc/Sound Blocks setting
3) What operating system do you have, 98, XP, Vista32, Vista64
4) What hardware : sound card + drivers if you can find that info
To fill up the form to make it more clear after trying bit more.

1) No sound lag (delay), occasional skipping/popping with Sound Blocks 1, much more so when viewing MP replays with lots of cars close in view
2) Yes, Sound Blocks 2 always works without any skipping/popping
3) Win XP SP1
4) Sound Blaster Live! with newest kX drivers (version 3573)

[NotAnIllusion]

1) Do you get lag (delay when pressing throttle) or skipping (gaps in sound)
2) Can it be solved by changing Options/Misc/Sound Blocks setting
3) What operating system do you have, 98, XP, Vista32, Vista64
4) What hardware : sound card + drivers if you can find that info
1) In U21 and U22 yes, prior to U21 no.
2) No.
3) XP Pro w/SP2 32-bit.
4) SB Live! 24-bit; drivers v1.04.0055.

1) In U21 and U22 yes, prior to U21 no sound.
2) Somewhat. Crackling is severe when the Sound Blocks setting is at 1 or 2, but goes away at 3 or above. Lag manifests at all Sound Block setting values.
3) Vista 64-bit b5744 RC2
4) Realtek AC'97; drivers v6.14.465.00.

[JohnUK89]

It seems MS still haven't sorted the DirectSound problems in Vista yet...just upgraded to RC2 (which just happened to remove the unlocked status from LFS, stoopid build numbers), and the pops and crackles described by everyone else on Vista are still there in U22.
Scawen, I don't think the problem truely lies in LFS's sound system...but in MS's current (rather buggy) DirectSound implementation. It has been like this since Beta 2, and I hope that they sort it before Vista gets released.

EDIT: With sound blocks set to 4 the problem seems to be solved, and the echo bug doesn't appear to be happening for me. No sound lag to be heard, strangely enough.

[Bob Smith]

1. U20 (and all earlier versions) - never heard problems with sound (apart from when car boost is cranked up to 20, then it clips to hell).

Test on main PC

U22 does give crackling issues. When there is no echoing, everything is fine.
Echo boost at normal (for me, 1.3) - When close to a wall, some soft crackling is present from time to time (only seems to happen at certain rpm.
Echo boost maxed (3.0) - loads of crackling when close to a wall, quite loud now, with some break up (skipping).

Increasing the sound blocks may or may not help the problem, if it does the difference is subtle, but certainly does not cure it. If anything the crackling might be slower with a higher block setting.

3. OS: Windoze eXPletives
4. Sound card: M-Audio Delta Audiophile 2496, driver version 5.10.0.5052v3

Test on spare PC
Lots of crackling now and then using block setting of 1. 2 and above reduce it to a rarity.

3. OS: Windoze eXPletives
4. Sound card: nVidia nForce Internal Audio

[GP4Flo]

First test on WinXP:
1.
U20: Everything is fine, I can use the lowest delay value (0.1s).
U21: Delay, no skipping.
U22: Delay with the default block setting (2), no skipping, crackling.
2. There is no delay with a block setting of 1, so the problem is solved. But now there is this crackling bug which seems to be related to the echo. You can adjust the volume of the crackling by changing the echo volume slider. It gets louder when driving close to a wall.
3. Win XP
4. MacBook Pro, Logitech USB Headset, SigmaTel Audio drivers (laptop speakers)

Small note: LFS freezes from time to time when trying to change the block settings in-game.

Second test on Vista:
1.
U20: A sound delay of 0.27s is needed to hear any sound, but then it's fine (except the 0,27 delay), no crackling
U21: Sound skippings (maybe delay as well, I'm not sure)
U22: Sound skippings with the default block setting (2)
2. With a block setting of 3 the skipping problem is solved. But there seems to be some delay now, no crackling.
3. Vista
4. Athlon XP 2400+, Logitech USB Headset

[Gener_AL (UK)]

1) Do you get lag (delay when pressing throttle) or skipping (gaps in sound)
2) Can it be solved by changing Options/Misc/Sound Blocks setting
3) What operating system do you have, 98, XP, Vista32, Vista64
4) What hardware : sound card + drivers if you can find that info
------------------------------------------------------------------
1> yes using block level 1 or 2 (crackling skipping)
2> using 3 is fine in single player with full grid (will test online and with a larger grid soon :) ) , 4 + 5 work ok but the delay/lag is to large
3> testing on Vista64 (5600)
4> Realtek 850 codec (onboard nforce4 ultra) (using nvidia drivers version 6.14.465.0 (date 26/07/2005)

using u22 patch
*also i noticed in task manager , lfs is running using virtualisation process i disabled that and noticed increase in game framerates* sound remained same

[SladiVadi]

Block=1 has no lag. I get what sounds like audio-clipping near the walls. Also some slight crackling during driving (easier to hear with lots of cars). That's not been an issue which had been caused by recent test-patches. I get that left/righ glitch too (near a wall).
I set PCI-latency to 32 (default is 64) in the BIOS because otherwise my Creative X-Fi would crackle all the time (in all games). Maybe that is a workaround.

Increasing Block increases lag.

I use Win XP 32Bit and a Creative X-Fi Extreme Music card (driver "5.12.18.1181"). I tried U22.


edit:
I found using the horn it's easier to notice sound-lag.

[nesrulz]

1. No when using block level 1.


2. In U22 there is no lag with a block setting of 1, so the problem is solved. But now there is this crackling bug which seems to be related to the echo. You can adjust the volume of the crackling by changing the echo volume slider. It gets louder when driving close to a wall.

3. Windows XP PRO SP2 (32-bit) + All Hotfixes

4. Creative SB Live! 5.1

Driver Provider: Creative
Version: 5.12.2.252 5.1
Date: 7/24/2002

Patch U20 worked fine with 0.10ms delay...

[askoff]

1) There's no lag or gaps. U20 worked with 0.10 ms sound lag. U22 sound crackles sometimes with 1 block. 2 blocks crackles only when driving beside wall.
2) Yes if set to 5 but sound lag is quite anoying then.
3) XP + all updates
4) SB Live! Value with latest drivers. "Creative Sound Blaster Live!, DR release 1.3.0". Windows Device Manager says that the driver version is 5.12.2.252

[axus]

Sound! :D

First of all, a few positive comments on the new system. I think that the sound is a tad bassier and I actually like it more now... could be placebo effect but I think I can hear a difference. Apart from that, I also noticed a difference when two sounds are mixed - ie. cars racing closely etc. - sounded really nice! I did get a small drop in FPS (3-5) but its not really too bad.

As for the questions:

1+2) I get a not-too-bad delay at 3 sound blocks, any higher and there's too much delay. I get skipping in sound even with a high sound blocks value (5), but certainly not as bad as on 2 sound blocks - on South City anyway.
3) Windows XP SP2 32-bit
4) Sound Blaster Live!, standard Microsoft driver.

[hotmail]

hello,

i have problems with the new sound system.

i have a suround sound headset.
but when i drive close to some body . at the left side!!!
the i hear the sound goning to left right in my head set.
so first sec sound left. second sec sound right and then left , right ......................

i hope you can understand my problem.

reintjan


Small edit i use win XP(32bit) SP2

[GP4Flo]

Yes, same problem here on both Vista and XP. I forgot to mention it in my first post.

When driving close to another car, the other car's engine sound changes from left to right. It's like when two sound waves elimate each other (e.g. two tuning forks with nearly the same frequency).

Edit: I've just done some tests and this is definatively a new bug which came with the new sound system in U21. With the old sounds (U20) the problem doesn't exist.

[MadCatX]

OK, here is another. The sound seemes a little bit different to me. Dont know how to explain it exactly, maybe..... it is more raw. I used headphones instead of speakers to do the best sound analysis.
Back to the topic.

1+2) With sound blocks higher than 1 there seemes to be a really little sound delay which disappeas when sound blocks set to 1. Sound crankles a bit when driving along walls. Crankling seemes to be smallest when sound blocks are 1, increasing it adds some more crankles, but nothing serious. Only thing that really changes when I incerase SBlock level is "sound popping" - I just floor the throttle and listen. Higher SBlock = more pops.
3) WinXP Pro SP2 patched
4) SB Audigy SE, original drivers

Patch U20 worked great with 0.10ms delay.

[AndroidXP]

Just tried a few AI races on SO Long, and yes, there is some crackling. Didn't hear it at first because it's really pretty sublte on my system, but noticeable nevertheless. I also got the sound-switching from left to right when driving near an AI. Overall the sound scape seems to have changed too, everything sounds a bit "different" and IMO quieter than before.

1) No lag, using 1 or 2 blocks, noticable at 3+. Skipping... hrm, yes a bit, I guess. Not really 100% identifyable as clear skipping, though.
2) Not really, using 5 blocks seems to make everything sound even worse.
3) WinXP Pro SP2, patched
4) SB Audigy 2 ZS

Also, when applying full throttle and turning off the engine, as soon as it hits 0 rpm, you hear a little "clack", as if a microphone was turning on/off. If you then turn the engine on again, you immediately hear a "frrrrrrr" but it takes a while till you actually hear the engine. But I believe this was similar in U20, so :shrug:

[XCNuse]

engines are still DEFFINETLY not loud enough; after a little test to see how far i can hear engines froms proves to be about 150 meters when they are comming towards me... in lfs, with my sound up rediculously loud (enough to destroy them if anything else on my computer makes a noise) i am only 70 meters

and now i found a new bug.. from 70 meters from a car to 75 meters.. the sound completely disapears.. absolutely completely disapears, i mean .. nothing is there; and then you move in 5 meters, and the sound comes back and its quite loud

[Fox 2]

1. No - I have no problems at all. Delay becomes noticeable at Sound block 4-5.. But it's completlly OK with default setting.
2. -
3. XP SP2.
4. Aureon 5.1 Fun. Not sure about drivers.

[trackah123]

ok i tested LFS U20 and U22 under vista RC2

U20 still has same soundlag problem as RC1 and before.. my guess is also that its because soundblaster didnt release new drivers yet for RC2.. im still using the ones back from july.

about U22 .. works best with soundblock of 3 / 4 (4 is slightly more stable) .. also noticed when you switch soundblocks to fast LFS completely freezes up in vista..

also in U22 its like (im not sure how to describe it exactly) the "sound positioning" is kinda weird.. when you crash into a wall.. you dont hear a crash sound.. and when the car drives by it sounds different compared to xp.. like you miss 1 speaker or something in a surround set...:shrug:

i used bios pci latency of 64 (default)..

this is all i can tell so far.. im using a sound blaster xf-i elite pro.

also 1 major thing.. dont use transparent sidebar gadgets in front of LFS.. that makes the soundcrack / pops even worse..

small update : in XP SP2 with U22 all soundblocks works fine but i still have that "sound positioning issue".. still dont hear anything when crashing into a wall at high speeds

[Shotglass]

i get the same crackling/popping tweak does, bf1 in idle (strangely enough that was gone after restarting lfs) and when theres lots of echos
and i believe that theres more lag than with the old system even with blocks set to 1 (very noticeable in how it takes longer for the sound to cut out when tc cuts in)
oh and the old system ran flawlessly with .1 lag on my machine

winxp-sp2, alc850 with drivers from the nf4 package

and while youre working on the sound system could you add a slider to set the volume for the engine ?

[Zero7]

Some feedback...

1) Do you get lag (delay when pressing throttle) or skipping (gaps in sound)

Skipping (or crackling).

2) Can it be solved by changing Options/Misc/Sound Blocks setting

Setting the Sound Blocks to 5 reduces it, but doesn't completely eliminate it. Again, most notable near barriers.

3) What operating system do you have, 98, XP, Vista32, Vista64

Windows XP SP2 + all hotfixes

4) What hardware : sound card + drivers if you can find that info

Compaq (hp) tc4200 laptop + SoundMAX Integrated Digital Audio + driver version 5.12.1.5250

[filur]

U22, I can get some very slight crackling in the BF1 at south city but I need to turn the volume up so much it's hard to tell if it's caused by LFS or if it's just distorsion. In a replay with ~17 GTR's on the grid i got some cracks/pops. Still hear steps in engine sound, they're smaller but still very audible, specially in the XFG. Don't know if steps is the right word for it so i made examples, these are very exaggerated, LFS sound isn't this bad. :)

All U22 tests with sound blocks at 1, there's no lag or delay, just these steps in sound. Delay/lag at 5 blocks is extreme. I run U20 with sound lag at 0.15s.

XP, 3 GHz Celeron, Realtek AC97 WDM Drivers rev.3.93.

[Scawen]

Thanks for the feedback.

Warning : long semi-technical paragraphs that aren't important to read - you can just skip to the end line if you like! :D

It's interesting that the feedback from the Vista sound programmers, when the old sound lag issue was described to them, was that they won't fix it. And they basically blamed the sound issue on me by saying that writing to an already submitted sound buffer was a bad thing to do (though they didn't mention that it worked fine in all previous versions of Windows). Anyway on studying the documentation, I decided to take their word for it and reprogram that lower level part of the sound system. Well now in U22 LFS never writes to a submitted sound buffer, it only writes to buffers THEN submits them when Windows reports that it is finished with one of the buffers it has. This method is supported by the documentation. I'm really doing it BY THE BOOK now - and still there is lag in Vista. Or at least, LFS needs to send 3 or 4 sound blocks ahead, to overcome that delay issue which still looks like a Windows bug to me. And these blocks sent ahead, add up to lag.

As I see it now, there seems to be a delay in the delivery of sound buffer data, to the sound card itself, somehow, within Vista. It doesn't matter if I program it the old "wrong" way or the new "right" way - in both cases, there is a delay in delivering the sound data to the sound card. It seems like quite a problem to me and just a bit unfortunate / annoying because this is something I just have to deal with, because the MS sound developers decided to make it work a different way. I'm not sure what to do, perhaps I should try using DirectSound instead of waveOut. I wouldn't be surprised if the same problem appeared again even then! But maybe they have streamlined DirectSound and neglected waveOut... I guess I won't know until I try.

Anyway, the U22 test is a bit confusing. After reading your reports and investigating the echo crackling at South City with headphones (and finding the echo code quite hard to understand) I removed the echo code completely to see which problems it cured. A lot of crackling did go, as expected but then there was still distortion and a bit of crackling, specially when racing against an AI car around South City. However this distortion, strangely enough, was not so bad when tested on another computer.

The result is that there are more problems with the sound than originally expected (and here we aren't even mentioning the actual quality of the car engine sounds which is a separate issue). It's a slight problem for bug reports, distingushing between the Windows issues and the LFS issues, while LFS is producing crackling and that can sound a bit like the skipping.

I need to make a cleaner version of LFS sound that is capable of producing the expected sounds without bubbles and crackles. And then we need to reassess the situation with Windows.

[wien]

1) Do you get lag (delay when pressing throttle) or skipping (gaps in sound)
Skipping (or crackling i would say) in music and other sounds with sound blocks < 4. I also get a wierd "pitch-stairstepping" effect when revving the engines. (Like Filur up there ^) No noticeable lag.

2) Can it be solved by changing Options/Misc/Sound Blocks setting
The skipping, yes (Though I also get the echo crackling), the stairstepping doesn't change.

3) What operating system do you have, 98, XP, Vista32, Vista64
Windows Vista RC2 32bit

4) What hardware : sound card + drivers if you can find that info
AMD XP 3000+, 1GB, Radeon 9800 - Sound: Terratec DMX6Fire (Driver v5.40.3.130)

I also get the feeling U22 doesn't run as "smooth" as U20 does here. (Graphics-wise) The FPS is the same, but it feels like it stutters a bit, if that makes any sense. In the past I have had that problem with a bad sound-card, so I'm guessing this is sound related too. Could be I'm imagining things, but I might as well mention it.

[Racer X NZ]

I don't know if this will help but it used to be the way to setup windoze for doing recordings with a software studio.

If you go to device manager, sound video game controllers, Audio codecs, Double click and go properties.

Here you can control the priority of the various codecs and this can make a difference in performance.

As I don't know which codec LFS uses my experimentation ends here but if we knew then experimenting here may help with lag etc.

This is relevent for 98 thru to XP SP2 but I don't know if it would work with SP3 as I refuse to to have anything to do with vista for as long as possible.

[axus]

I just updated my sound card driver with the proper Creative one and it did seem to fix the performance loss I'd experienced. It also removed a large amount of the crackling and popping but not to the extent that its "fine". The cars do sound a lot more like they have engines all of a sudden though - the sound is more "blank" between the seperate explosions I think.

[Blackout]

and now i found a new bug.. from 70 meters from a car to 75 meters.. the sound completely disapears.. absolutely completely disapears, i mean .. nothing is there; and then you move in 5 meters, and the sound comes back and its quite loud
That's nothing new, it's always been like that, now the distance is increased but it's like it was before.

And yes, having the same issues like everyone, weird sounds when driving near walls and sounds of other cars goes weirdly left to right (XP SP2, Hercules something soundcard). It's like echo travelling too much and bouncing back, but I guess that's not possible if it still happens with no echo code.

[AndroidXP]

Thanks for the feedback...Bummer :(, now you have to hold yourself up with some more sound fixing. But atleast you can be sure that issue is finally "done" when you're finished.

Another thing I noticed, was when I drove into the middle of five circular parked AI's, that the sound was like "BrrRRrrRRrrRRrr *CHHHHHHZZZZZZT* rrRRrrRRrrRRrrRR *CHHZZZZT* rrRRrrRR *CHHZZZZZZZT* ...", so really long interferences, almost sounding like white noise if I remember correctly. It also seemed that the sound level wasn't staying the same, but gradually growing and then falling again, in a big slow and almost unnoticeable wave.

[XCNuse]

sorry i didn't even notice there was an update until yesterday

owell.. i'll answer the questions while im in this thread anyway

1: yes i have a delay.. but thats only when i increase the blocks, so i guess that might be a no? and i dont think i get gaps
2: yes (well.. that solves question 1)
3: XP
4: stock; SoundMAX digital audio.. actually it might be whatever a UAC3553B is

[MoonForce]

1. U20 (and all earlier versions) - never heard problems with sound (apart from when car boost is cranked up to 20, then it clips to hell).

Test on main PC

U22 does give crackling issues. When there is no echoing, everything is fine.
Echo boost at normal (for me, 1.3) - When close to a wall, some soft crackling is present from time to time (only seems to happen at certain rpm.
Echo boost maxed (3.0) - loads of crackling when close to a wall, quite loud now, with some break up (skipping).

Increasing the sound blocks may or may not help the problem, if it does the difference is subtle, but certainly does not cure it. If anything the crackling might be slower with a higher block setting.



same here,

3: Win XP Pro SP2
4: M-Audio Delta Audiophile 2496, latest driver

[BulliT]

I love the technical side of things! I can feel your pain Scawen...
How about an updated testprogram with the new method?
Then it might be possible to see if it's an LFS issue or an waveout callback issue.
I guess you will be an expert on sound when you are done :)

[GP4Flo]

I need to make a cleaner version of LFS sound that is capable of producing the expected sounds without bubbles and crackles. And then we need to reassess the situation with Windows.
Small suggestion: What about testing DirectSound / trying to fix the windows issue first? I think that's the main problem now as it seems to multiply all the other issues. In U20 I didn't encounter any sound problems, except the crackling in rare situations. So in my opinion a sound like in U20 (with 0.1s lag) would be fine, it doesn't need to be that perfect for now.


Another thing I noticed, was when I drove into the middle of five circular parked AI's, that the sound was like "BrrRRrrRRrrRRrr *CHHHHHHZZZZZZT* rrRRrrRRrrRRrrRR *CHHZZZZT* rrRRrrRR *CHHZZZZZZZT* ...", so really long interferences, almost sounding like white noise if I remember correctly. It also seemed that the sound level wasn't staying the same, but gradually growing and then falling again, in a big slow and almost unnoticeable wave.
Looks like LFS can simulate Interference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interferance). The AI cars produce almost identical sound waves which overlap each other and interfere. So you will get an envelope-wave which is hearable in the "growing and falling" volume. ;)

[askoff]

As I don't know which codec LFS uses my experimentation ends here but if we knew then experimenting here may help with lag etc.
I don't think that the LFS uses any codecs. I'm quite sure it uses its own codecs for decoding org vorbis and outputs always PCM signal to Windows.

[BulliT]

I found some notes on what to do and what not to do with directsound.
For example that the writecursor in IDirectSoundBuffer::GetCurrentPosition is bad and that you should maintain your own. It's very old but might be applicable today aswell.

www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article710.asp (http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article710.asp)

Read from googles cache if link above is down:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=www.gamedev.net%2Freference%2Farticles%2Farticle 710.asp&btnG=Google+Search




There is also info stating that one should use DSBCAPS_GETCURRENTPOSITION2 to get a more exact position.

(I'm bored at work and thought I'd work google a bit :) hehe...)

[badeend]

oke here's the man whit the plan:)

go to options than misc, after that you see the sound blocks put it on 3

i repeat 3!

than it was perfect at my house :D

byebye

[filur]

what to do and what not to do with directsound.

Maybe you (Scawen) could try getting in touch with some DirectX/DirectSound software synthesizer developer, the general approach to buffers etc while working with realtime generated sound can't really be a secret.

[Ian_Bassi]

Have you thought about using a different API to try and solve these problems? I belive the Miles system is quite good, if not a little pricey compared to DirectSound.

Link here - http://www.radgametools.com/miles.htm

Ian

[Doorman]

This may or may not be relavent and only be coincidental, but PitSpotter has taken it into it's head to only work intermittently. This IS since U22. Prior to that it worked flawlessly. Not just me either. Maybe a new version is required for the new sound system. :shrug:. Kegetys?

[cdub]

So synthesised sounds are here to stay? :x

[tristancliffe]

Thank God - none of this sampled rubbish people actually think is any good. Sure it might sound nice, but it's as useful as a gritty sponge.

[RudiTurbo]

When I'm just standing on track and then changing the sound blocks option clickng trough it really quick, my LFS freezes.

[MadCatX]

I found another quite weird thing about sound today.

I windowed LFS by pressing Shift+F4 and some "rythmical" crackles came up right away. They were quite loud and completely independant on what I was doing. Low revs, high revs, window, fullscreen, no matter what, those sounds was still there, it sounded like an old LP vinyl or scratched CD. Those crackling suddenly disappeared after approx 1m30sec.

It never happedned before, just now on U22 patch.

[alland44]

I installed the u22 patch, a couple of days ago. Yesterday I tried the F1 on the oval. Ohh boy - When you come close to the wall - The crackles and pops are disgusting. But why did I write it then ?

I have played around with midifiles and soundcards and soundfonts, for a while now. If you use a tool, for editing music, as Cubase ligth - You will experience just the same crackles, when you overload the system. (To many tracks, using big soundfonts, at the same time)

On a smaller system, with a Soundblaster Audigy, using a large piano soundfont - I get 99,0 % of a Chopin piece rigth, untill he really quickly starts hitting the piano. Again these crackles and pops destroys the music.

But in both instances, you can cure "the disease" by turning som buffersizes up and down. Not all systems are the same, especially the soundcards are not. Could it be a solution, to work out a tool which adjusted those buffers and the other thingies, one adjust in a "music system" ? - I recon that there is not the big differences between a music system, and a game sound system - Both have to work hard, and needs to be adjusted some times - Or am I all wrong :(

[PLAYLIFE]

I installed the u22 patch, a couple of days ago. Yesterday I tried the F1 on the oval. Ohh boy - When you come close to the wall - The crackles and pops are disgusting. But why did I write it then ?

I have played around with midifiles and soundcards and soundfonts, for a while now. If you use a tool, for editing music, as Cubase ligth - You will experience just the same crackles, when you overload the system. (To many tracks, using big soundfonts, at the same time)

On a smaller system, with a Soundblaster Audigy, using a large piano soundfont - I get 99,0 % of a Chopin piece rigth, untill he really quickly starts hitting the piano. Again these crackles and pops destroys the music.

But in both instances, you can cure "the disease" by turning som buffersizes up and down. Not all systems are the same, especially the soundcards are not. Could it be a solution, to work out a tool which adjusted those buffers and the other thingies, one adjust in a "music system" ? - I recon that there is not the big differences between a music system, and a game sound system - Both have to work hard, and needs to be adjusted some times - Or am I all wrong :(


Well... a music track is always the same: it will have the exact same sequence in all cases. In LFS you might start braking, crash, add revs, etc. it ican be unpredictable... So it's definitely not exactly the same (mind you, I did not say you said it is exactly the same).

[axus]

I think I just found the bug with the sound - haven't tested extensively but switching the mirrors off seems to eliminate it completely! Switching them back on seemed to return it.

EDIT: Having tested some more, it seems that the "ploping sound" was caused by that. I still get very slightly clipping from time to time but its barely noticable.

[Blackout]

So LFS mirrors don't just mirror image, they also mirror sounds, how cool is that!

[AndroidXP]

Maybe the drawing of mirrors takes place at a crucial point in code, causing these crackles as a sideeffect? I'll try that out as soon as I'm home...

[Blackout]

Yes, atleast for me it does remove all weirdness of the sounds. When I turn the mirrors off I can't hear the crackling or popping or the weird left/right bouncing when drivng front of another car. Nicely spotted axus :)

[TagForce]

Well... a music track is always the same: it will have the exact same sequence in all cases. In LFS you might start braking, crash, add revs, etc. it ican be unpredictable... So it's definitely not exactly the same (mind you, I did not say you said it is exactly the same).

No, it's not... playing an MP3 is always the same, but actually creating music (using Cubase SX and a gazillion softsynths (VSTi)), is something very similar to what Scawen is doing I'd imagine. The sequencer (Cubase, and LFS) only tells the soundgenerator (synth) what notes should be played (pitch and instrument), and the soundgenerator then creates the sound on-the-fly by creating a waveform that is returned to the sequencer. The sequencer then mixes all available waveforms and outputs that into a buffer.

Maybe Vista uses a sort of ASIO driver to dump the buffers in (which causes these problems, normal drivers just stop playing).

[AndroidXP]

Just tested it and I can confirm that disabling the mirror improves sound quality a lot. I'm not sure if it's 100% perfect and I think I still heard a little noise/crackling here and there when in a full AI field, but it's much better.

[KiDCoDEa]

just tested u22 on vista rc2. ran fine, unlocked fine, except for the heli cam missing synth sounds that also happens on xp sp2.

cmi onboard.

[Electrik Kar]

Creative have released new Vista beta (32 and 64bit) drivers for Audigy and X-Fi cards. I'm not running Vista, but maybe these may help smooth out some people's sound problems. The link is-

http://us.creative.com/support/downloads/

[Scawen]

I think I just found the bug with the sound - haven't tested extensively but switching the mirrors off seems to eliminate it completely! Switching them back on seemed to return it.

EDIT: Having tested some more, it seems that the "ploping sound" was caused by that. I still get very slightly clipping from time to time but its barely noticable.Thanks a lot for this bug detection! And thanks also to the people who tested and confirmed it.

It's because I used the graphical view direction as part of the calculation for the different things which happen in each ear. The new system can generate sounds at any time, including while LFS is drawing the mirror view. The bug is that I did not isolate the view direction and use only the main view direction. The symptom is that any sound which is different in the left and right ears, would be generally swapping randomly and so causing discontinuities in the waveform (audible as clicks).

I'll get this and the other "LFS sound bugs" fixed first thing before going on with the underlying "Windows / Vista sound bugs".

[KiDCoDEa]

what vista bugs? i played game just fine?

[Scawen]

Kid, did it work for you on default settings (Sound Blocks = 2) ? And does it still work if you set it down to 1 ?

A lot of people with Vista need to set Sound Blocks to about 4 to eliminate skipping...

[Shotglass]

did i get that correctly
you calcualted sound directions using graphical info and if the timing was out of synch the sound was mirrored all the time when it happend while the rear view got drawn ?

and appologies for for the other thread we kind of got carried away

[lake10]

I didnt read everything, but i ve also sound problems in my headset.
Some"pops" too.
I didnt had that on older patchs.

[tristancliffe]

I didnt read everything, but i ve also sound problems in my headset.
Some"pops" too.
I didnt had that on older patchs.

You MUST read EVERYTHING, otherwise this forum is useless. You have problems, but have to previous 20 odd posts helped (mirror things). Have you tried them? Anything to add other than you have a bug we already know about? Even then, you tell us NOTHING about your computer (XP/Vista, Intel/AMD etc etc).

Sorry to sound harsh, but this test forum relies on people READING the warning, READING the threads, and ACTING upon what they read. When you have read these bits of information, done a proper test, and worked out whether your post was needed, then you may edit your post above with the new info, or remove it.

Scawen/Mods: You can delete my post if you don't think it's needed, or if the deletion of his post makes mine useless. Sorry if I was in the wrong writing it. For the record, disabling the mirror improves my sound somewhat, but I haven't tested extensively enough to write anything that hasn't already been written.

[Scawen]

Hello!

Vista users, please visit this thread and try out the small test program.

We'll find out if DirectSound suffers from the same issues as waveOut.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=13844

[dawesdust_12]

Watching the STCC feature replay, I played with the mirrors toggling, and that is for sure the cause of crackling, because with mirrors = noticible aibet minimal crackling, but without mirrors, it becomes clear as day.

[lake10]

You MUST read EVERYTHING, otherwise this forum is useless. You have problems, but have to previous 20 odd posts helped (mirror things). Have you tried them? Anything to add other than you have a bug we already know about? Even then, you tell us NOTHING about your computer (XP/Vista, Intel/AMD etc etc).

Sorry to sound harsh, but this test forum relies on people READING the warning, READING the threads, and ACTING upon what they read. When you have read these bits of information, done a proper test, and worked out whether your post was needed, then you may edit your post above with the new info, or remove it.

Scawen/Mods: You can delete my post if you don't think it's needed, or if the deletion of his post makes mine useless. Sorry if I was in the wrong writing it. For the record, disabling the mirror improves my sound somewhat, but I haven't tested extensively enough to write anything that hasn't already been written.

You dont have to be so aggresive.
I saw some ppl asking if others guy had problem, i just said yes since patch U22.
Sorry for my useless post.........

[trackah123]

ok have tested vista RC2 again.

this time i used new vista nvidia drivers and also new sound blaster x-fi drivers.

i run average of 100fps in LFS and sound works fine from sound block 3 now. i only still have the audio-positioning problem. like when you crash at high speed into a wall you dont hear a crash sound.

now im going to try that directsound tool.

[Scawen]

TEST Patch U23. DirectSound now implemented into LFS!

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=243881#post243881

Thanks for your help! I'll close this thread now.