Logitech G25 reviews [Archive]

Arkanen

15th May 2006, 10:22

I got to test out the Logitech G25 today at E3. Its actually pretty well built overall, the only thing i didnt like was the shifter (more on this)

Best thing about this set is the wheel. 11 inches is PERFECT for racing games. Real leather wrapped wheel feels really nice. Paddle shifters are big enough and more realistic than most wheels out there now. I cant comment much on the Force Feedback because i played 2 different games (rFactor and GTR) that were pre-set with force feedback settings. I agree, 2 buttons isnt enough.

Pedals felt great IMO, ALOT better than the DFP. Pedal positioning actually felt comfortable. Heel-Toe was done confortably and easy. Could use a dead pedal just like any other 3 pedal setup out there.

One thing i disliked however was the 6 speed/sequential shifter. Its a great addition thats its a 2 in 1 combo, but the shifter is "weightless" and does not return back to position. Everything else was of high quality, the shifter however didnt feel up to par.

The pedals use standard metal "can" pots and are designed such that the pots should last a significant amount of time. There is no easy way (you'd have to REALLY abuse them) to drive the pedals past their maximum range, and the frames are designed such that there should be no lateral movement to pull the wipers up and cause spikes. The designs of our other pedals were studied very closely and improved upon significantly.

I don't have authorization to release the official limited edition number yet, but I can assure you that it will be possible to obtain this wheel if you're interested in it. We are not talking about hundreds of units or a few weeks of availability.

Glad you liked the wheel. The shifter spring is something I wish could be improved further as well, but for this particular product our spring size options are limited by mechanical constraints. There just isn't room in the mechanism for a heavier spring. If you end up at E3 again tomorrow, look for the tall bald ugly guy with the ridiculous goatee.

I wish you sweet wet dreams about it guys and girls :thumb:

Krane

25th August 2006, 22:21

Goo posted couple videos and a new pic to the RSC thread.

n.b. Media Player Classic didn't seem to know what to do with the videos, use VLC or something instead.

dontsimon

26th August 2006, 14:30

These pictures posted by Goo on RSC look very promising.

mcman

27th August 2006, 18:22

Somehow this "new wheel from logitech" leaves me cold. Maybe it is just that I have heard so much horror stories about logitech wheels that I have somewhat lost my trust on the firm. Especially because my MS wheel has been through all kind of bizarre accidents (dropped to ground from heights of 2 metres, not once) and only one problem that I have ever had with it are the random (once or twice a day) double up/downshift, or the squeeky pedals. It is just a shame that Microsoft isn't making wheels anymore. At least their stuff had the reliability issues taken care of, business sense or not.

I would have really hoped that the wheel would have had at least 4 buttons (look left/right, pit speedlimiter and handbrake). Now it has only two, which are even poorly positioned on the wheel. Also while the pedals look sturdy and more reliable than the previous MOMO-red/DFP versions, logitech has still forgotten that in hi-spec-tech wheels/pedals, the pedal precision is largely underestimated. If you look at the pedal travel, the angle precisely, you see that it is less than 50 degrees. Also no talks about if the wheel has bearings on its axle. And that gear stick isn't practical. Especially that directional pad (cross-button or whatevah) is totally useless - you need to use your forefinger to operate it, like the rest of the buttons on the shifter. And because of the need of using you forefinger, you need to reach out for them. And this means that operating them is slow and inprecise.

Imho, this is again a classic example how the idea of "everything needs to be symmetric, for the looks" has been a higher priority than raw ergonomics. After all, the logitech RSC speachman, goo, said that it was important for logitech that the wheel would not look like a toy. Do pro sim racers care how the wheel looks, if the functionality is top notch? Or vice versa :pillepall

All-in-all, it's still promising that logitech has made such a product aimed at more professional sim players. Too bad it wasn't designed by ones.

Sorry for being such negative, but bad design always makes me sad. :shrug:

EDIT: it seems that someone had posted a screen edit of the wheel with an lcd display on it. Imho, having an lcd display on wheel isn't really practical as the wheel is a) not in your sight = you need to move your eyes away from the screen b) as the wheel turns it makes it even ahrder to see what it says. A fixed lcd placed on top of the wheel would be better imho. And cheaper.

The G25 FFB Transmission uses precision ball bearings: a snap ring version of the DFP "after bearing" and a smaller race version of the MOMO Force transmission (50 mm ID, 72 mm OD) as the "forward bearing" (similar layout to MOMO Force). The main shaft is glass filled Nylon 66 for very high strength with the "bull gear" integrated into the shaft for superior concentricity. Two, high torque, DC motors operate through a 16:1 reduction with a anti-backlash gear system providing direct drive to the motor mounted high resolution optical encoder. This approach means that any movement of the wheel results in movement of the optical encoder for exact input response. Further benefits of the two motor transmission are much lower interia, lower pitch line velocity of the gears for greatly reduced noise, and increased frequency response due to minimized FFB gear backlash (single reduction compared to double reduction). Number of motors, motor torque, and gear ratio were chosen to provide the same torque at the wheel rim as DFP (though it feels like more due to lower system losses). This design approach produces a much lighter feel and a quicker response than a standard gear based double reduction transmission. The wheel uses 3.0 mm thick stainless steel spokes providing a very rigid driving experience, and is hand wrapped with real leather. The hub mounted Paddle Shifters are constructed from 2.0 mm thick SS and operate lever arm switches in the hub (rotate with the wheel). Total rotation is 900 degrees "lock to lock" using a similar stop system as DFP, but without the mechanical 200 degree sliding stop.

The pedals are constructed from plated CRS (cold rolled steel) and stainless steel: 2.2 mm CRS for the arms and frame, 3.0 mm SS for the pedal faces. Shoulder bolts with 8.00 mm diameters, and heavy duty plastic bushings provide a very high tolerance and rigid feel. The potentimeters are gear'ed up, using anti-backlash springs, to produce 55 degrees of potentiometer rotation from 20 degrees of input resulting in very smooth and very fine control. The stops are "metal to metal" to eliminate calibration destroying flex in the system. The pedal arms are connected to the back of the frame, once again, through 8.00 mm dia shoulder bolts, with a piston and cylinder arrangment. Springs of three different rates are enclosed inside these pistons; about twice the strength of DFP's pedal spring for the throttle, very strong for brake and firm for the clutch. These rates were finalized after many interations and many LFS laps! Each frame includes 2 tapped (M6X1 bolts) holes for mounting the pedal set to a simiulator structure, but also includes the patented "carpet lock" grip system used on DFP's pedal set.

The Shifter is a six speed, short throw, with locked out reverse. It is convertable to a standard sequencial to support non-gated shifter games. It is constructed from heat treated CRS, and high strength Delrin engineering plastic. The mechansim is based on potentiometers, not switches, to determine shifter position. It has a spring loaded ball bearing detent that holds it in each gear, and is spring loaded to neutral when not in gear. The shaft is 10.0 mm diameter steel with a alignment flat machined into the top to key the leather shifter knob which is held on with a machine screw. The boot is also made from real leather. The Shifter uses TWO clamps made from steel bolts and glass filled nylon jaws for table attachment and retention. The knob tops have a "spring loaded, push down and rotate to set" feature to prevent them from interfering with the users knuckles while shifting. A center "ANTI-TIP" arm and screw are included to prevent tipping when the shifter is pulled toward the user. It is not a clamp, and should not be over tightened during use. Two tapped (M6X1) brackets allow the Shifter to be mounted onto a similuator frame if desired. It also contains a symetric control panel allowing the Shifter to be mounted on the left or the right side of the user.

WIGGA

27th August 2006, 19:48

Here is the Movie!
http://rapidshare.de/files/30978898/Ich_beim_Driven_mit_dem_G25._Wie_man_sieht_ist_es_ ziemlich_schwer_auch_fuer_nen_LFS_PG__..AVI

filur

27th August 2006, 21:33

http://v1.tinypic.com/player.swf?file=data28/80/25s5z46

juggle

22nd September 2006, 02:23

Ok had a bit of fun with g25 so hers my thoughts so far..... bloody marvelous

You have to be aware that I don’t get the chance to race too much these days so im a bit rusty driving. My former wheel was the DFP.

Construction: The whole package oozes quality

Wheel: Rock solid mounting; zero play in the wheel and the dead spot from the DFP has gone. Very quiet with minimal notchiness from the gearing inside, in fact I don’t really notice it. Wheel size is way better (diameter and thickness) with the leather giving a very nice feel. Buttons are very nicely placed. I come onto the lack of buttons question when describing the gearshift. Paddles on the back are very nice and I especially like the extended ears, which makes it easier to grab a gear when whipping the wheel about.

FF: Incredibly smooth with none of the jerkiness I found with the DFP. I have had to increase the FF up to 65% in LFS and 100% inRBR (compared to 50/70 ish) which is not to say the ff is weaker but more controlled and I think much less lag. The feel you get when the cars slide about makes the whole experience much more involving with the wheel behaving as it would in a normal car.

Pedals: I refuse to takes these apart...for now anyways. I can only assume that the red piston shape is a shroud for the springs, but then again that’s purely speculation. The accelerator has good spring strength and brake and clutch have heavy settings so you really have to stomp on the brakes now. The pedal travel is much longer which I am finding is making my driving smoother. You can heal and toe pretty easily for the downshift. I have resorted to my old climbing stickies as the pedal effort was giving me sore feet (used to use socks) and it makes the heal and toe easier. Probably due to the larger footprint/weight the pedals have not moved since I put them in place.

Gear stick/console: Good solid mounting. gear throw through the gates is swift and sure. There is a loudish click from the switches when you select a gear, but again I have gotten used to it pretty quickly and with earphones on it just give you a faintly audible/tactile notification that you have a gear. The stick stays in the gear position firmly. I have not tried it in sequential mode, and probably wont, as it is too much fun being able to jump from 6th to 2nd for hairpins etc. The lack off switches on the wheel has not really been a concern as when you are actually setup the switches actually fall nicely to you fingers. I also use binds for the wheel buttons to cycle through commands etc.

Overall: happy I spent the money. In LFS I am finding the difficult setups eg.Flotch WR set for Blackwood, which I found very difficult to drive with DFP has become transformed and a pleasure to use, with smoother acceleration and braking. The steering itself has very nice feel to it with lovely turn in and feedback. RBR same again finding it much easier to modulate braking and acceleration which has led me to knock about 3-5 secs of my PB,s.

I will be honest and say these both feel like new games again, not in a bad way but more like I am actually driving them..

If anybody else has any other questions then ill do my best to answer

Cheers Mike

Tanpax

22nd September 2006, 22:24

deggis

22nd September 2006, 23:56

http://www.hardware.info/videos/hwi-logitech-g25-720p.wmv.torrent

Holy shit. :hyper: :faint2:

Review in German plus new pics: http://www.hardware.info/nl-NL/articles/am9nZmpsZA/Logitech_G25_racestuur_Review/

Tanpax

23rd September 2006, 00:01

http://www.hardware.info/videos/hwi-logitech-g25-720p.wmv.torrent :faint2:
This is just great. thanks dude.

C0nscript

23rd September 2006, 12:42

deggis

23rd September 2006, 15:41

Its dutch :nod:
Sorry if I offended your language :D

Tweaker:

Is there really only two clamping screws in the wheel? I mean these (http://www.hardware.info/images/articles/IMG_1860.JPG). And those two screws seem to be more far away from each other than in my MOMO which also has the third screw below the wheel console. Just wondering that are those screws too far away to be used with desk that has curved edge like mine (http://torttu.net/temp/desk.jpg). :shrug:

Shinrar

23rd September 2006, 15:42

Its dutch :nod:
That explains why babelfish was having difficulty translating, heh. Much better. Now I can read half the words....

Smax

23rd September 2006, 16:22

Sorry if I offended your language :D

Tweaker:

Is there really only two clamping screws in the wheel? I mean these (http://www.hardware.info/images/articles/IMG_1860.JPG). And those two screws seem to be more far away from each other than in my MOMO which also has the third screw below the wheel console. Just wondering that are those screws too far away to be used with desk that has curved edge like mine (http://torttu.net/temp/desk.jpg). :shrug:

Yes there are only 2 clamps on the wheel, the gap between them is 187mm and the clamps themselves are 20mm wide. The wheel itself is evidently designed to be mounted to a straight edge.

You may have to come up with an imaginative way of using a flat piece of wood like a bookshelf in conjunction with your desk to be able to mount it securely.

mcman

23rd September 2006, 19:02

i know it is at least one inch. i think the dfp with the extra spacer is 1 inch so its more without

The clamps on G25 are about 20 mm further apart than the clamps on MOMO Racing so G25 should mount just fine on that curved desk (if it was curved the other way it would not). Maximum clamp opening is 52 mm. The picture shown has the "spacer clips" installed which are included for use on very thin desks. They "snap off" when pushed from the side to allow maximum clamp opening. The clips are shipped installed for ease of packaging. G25's clamping system in nearly identical to DFP except for the "push down/rotate" to latch clamp knobs.

Ok. I hope my worries are unnecessary but I can't be sure. I have no problem attaching the black MOMO (even if it didn't have that third clamp) but this might be just a matter of few millimetres. :shrug:

Even if the wheel fits with no problems I will still have a problem finding a good place for the shifter but I already had a backup plan for that (though the desk isn't the best place for the shifter anyway).

Could you tell me what's the exact distance between this (see the pic)?

I just looked at your attached image: the distance you indicate with the two red arrows is "depth under the lip" not clamping width. This distance is 17 mm and really only comes into play if your mounting surface has a "lip" hanging down that is more than 52 mm and very close to the edge. Hope this helps.

Clamps look idential on the underside to DFP ones, so should keep the wheel nice and secure. My desk starts moving around before the wheel shifts.

You guys sure it uses the proper bolting pattern for the wheel? If so it only uses half of it, and the other 3 are fake..guess that'd still be pretty secure, although if that is the case I already sense a mod coming. Take a look at these pics and tell me what you think.

mcman

23rd September 2006, 23:18

Clamps look idential on the underside to DFP ones, so should keep the wheel nice and secure. My desk starts moving around before the wheel shifts.

You guys sure it uses the proper bolting pattern for the wheel? If so it only uses half of it, and the other 3 are fake..guess that'd still be pretty secure, although if that is the case I already sense a mod coming. Take a look at these pics and tell me what you think.

What you are looking at is the end of the Main Shaft/Bull gear. What is not shown is the "Hub/Paddle Shifters" assembly which is attached to the Main Shaft with three large screws. This assembly goes on after the Top Case is installed over the Main Shaft and Clamp Caps. The Hub has six screw bosses that accept the six hex headed screws that hold the wheel on. It should be noted that the Stainless Steel Wheel Frame is not directly held on with the six screws. They sit in six pockets in the Center Bezel and the pockets align and hold the Wheel onto the Hub. The bolt pattern is set at 25 mm radius (50 mm screw center line to screw centerline).

the wheel looks very good :) sorta reminds me of one of my fav momo wheels.

This should not be surprising since MOMO designed the G25 wheel as well as all other aspects of the industrial design.

kaynd

26th September 2006, 15:28

Here is a review of Logitech G25 racing wheel.:)

http://www.hardware.info/en-US/articles/am9nZmpvZA/Logitech_G25_racing_wheel__Review/

It’s good to see the details and there is a video showing a guy driving with it…

Disappointingly, as it is shown on the video, he is reviewing an 900degree wheel in 200 mode OMG useless reviewer!!!:pillepall

frokki

26th September 2006, 15:56

Disappointingly, as it is shown on the video, he is reviewing an 900degree wheel in 200 mode OMG useless reviewer!!!:pillepallYeah, I didn't know should I laugh or cry after seeing it, but it turned into laughter after I saw his shoes and driving technique. :scratchch

BTW Your link doesn't work. heres working one:
http://www.hardware.info/en-US/articles/am9nZmpvZA/Logitech_G25_racing_wheel__Review/

Tanpax

26th September 2006, 18:27

Tweaker

28th September 2006, 06:13

You know, it is possible that so many people lack the feel of how-to use a shifter controller for gaming. I had the Act-Labs shifter and that stuck in each gear very nicely, but it was almost too much because it had such a long throw for each gear. I had to get used to that.

The G25's Shifter is indeed "loose" in some areas, "strong" in others, but whatever you see when people handle the shifter, THEY ARE BEING PANSIES!!!! Everyone I see is just holding their shifter like they are threading a needle, and being all delicate. Of course it will be loose if people don't give it some bite. It is a quick shifter, and you can knock the shifter loose from a gear if you try to. But while racing, having trouble with the shifter is hardly going to happen once you get used to it. I had to get used to it.

If it was terribly wrong and a horrible shifter, I wouldn't say any of this, but the shifter is good, functions fine, and personally I wouldn't let videos change judgement of the product. Even if you got a chance to try it for yourself, you would undoubtedly say it is loose or flimsy... but use it with it's purpose, give it some grease and put it in each gear with some strength, that is how it should be used... and that adds to the experience when you get into it.

Tweaker

30th September 2006, 01:55

I know that im not shelling out $300 until I see some feedback on this. A decent wheel + pedals (with clutch???) + gear shifter like that is gonna cost much more than $300.

Why are you so sure that Logitech will put together a QUALITY set up for such a low price? I feel bad about spoiling the general fanboi mood around here but after so much hype about a few pictures and a video on Youtube, I can almost feel a huge letdown when the bloody thing hits the stores.
Any buyer is of course entitled to be suspicious of the product, and it is only wise that people wait to see what people think of it. However, most wheel/controller reviews are very biased because most of it is personal taste of how things are made. And there will probably only be complaints about the shifter and 2 buttons on the wheel, but that is nothing compared to the essentials, the wheel and pedals themselves. Everything else is a big step up from Logitech's previous wheel history. For $300, I can already tell you that it is well worth the money. I had to spend $200 on Logitech's Red MOMO when it was on the shelves, and the only thing that was worth the money was the wheel itself. Pedals were crap, and it was only 2 pedal set. If you put that in perspective and compare it with the G25, G25 is easily twice as good as the acclaimed Red MOMO. The G25's wheel is actually better than the Red MOMO's. Force Feedback motors are better, stronger, there are 2, and the sensor for the steering is not a potentiometer like in the Red MOMO, it is an optical sensor, and very long lasting. G25 has a 3 pedal set, all of varying stiffness, and way better construction. Pedals are easily Logitech's best pedals to date, and I would never hestitate to think otherwise. Because a while back, I was planning on getting an expensive $400 3-pedal set from some 3rd party manufacturer to go along with my Red MOMO. Worthless idea.

Having the G25 you have a huge amount of options given, and it is all worth the $300 if you add everything up. You are the first I've heard thinking that $300 is a bit cheap and might mean the product is cheap (most people say it is expensive, lol).... but you've got to realize that it is mass produced, and they are trying to make a quality wheel for an affordable price. Logitech is spot on with this... and I cannot stress more that their older wheels just suck compared to this :D

But you can really only judge it if you test it yourself hands on. So if you goto a nice store and see it on display, see how it feels. But usually people purposely break display versions, so don't judge it then, lol.

speedykev

1st October 2006, 15:22

well it looks like they have the pedals right, no tennis balls this time. :)

danowat

3rd October 2006, 09:22

Showing the G25 playing LFS, posted by Gopher at the T7R forum, not sure if its been mentioned here, looks nice, not sure I like the gear change sound.

Dan,

http://www.hardware.info/en-UK/articles/am9nZmpvZA/Logitech_G25_racing_wheel__Review/

Gunn

4th October 2006, 13:10

I've attached some pics of the device(s) trying to show some features.

Pedal footprint is much bigger than previous Logitech pedals (longer, not wider). It's much heavier than Momo or DFP pedals. I didn't bother opening them up but they feel quite solid compared to what I'm used to. Ergonomically not as good as the Momo or DFP but better in every other way, I'll just have to train some new foot and leg muscles to suit. The pedals have quite a bit of feel now and resist being pushed much more than previous Logitech pedals. Each has a different resistance, the brake feels the hardest. You can actually dab the brake and get the desired effect, rather than the usual gamble you get with softly-sprung pedals.

Shifter profile showing clamping system. The bottom clamp might have been better if it reached a little further under the desk. The shifter is noisy, but that's what you'd expect from this sort of product, still; late night shifting will be kept to a minimum, which is a bit of a shame. The buttons on the shifter was a bad idea, the shifter itself obscures them. At least with the provision of hard mounts(2) you can perhaps make a special shifter platform and locate it in a better position (lower and back towards the driver). The h-gate is good but not great. Missing a gear is easy and it is not too hard to bump it into neutral, I would have liked more resistance (both ways) here. It's not so bad though, just not fantastic. The shift knob does the job, but is perhaps the worst thing about the G25 aesthetically since they used some cheap-looking grey plastic insert to denote the h-pattern. I'm happy with the shifter, but let's just say I'm not exactly staring into space drooling over it.

Top view of shifter (in 2nd gear).

Underside of shifter you can see the hard mounts, the pedals and wheel have them too.

Underside of wheel showing the cable retention grooves to keep cables neat (I've shown one cable using the grooves in the image, all four sit neatly in those). It isn't well illustrated, but the long thing in the centre is for wrapping excess cable around, a good idea. The pedal USB cable could have been longer by a few inches IMO.

Gunn

4th October 2006, 13:11

Clamping system of the wheel unit, similar to what we are used to with the DFP/Momo range. I have no complaints, it works well on my desk. There are two hard mounts towards the front of the wheel. The little warning sticker suggests that you shouldn't let young children near the device, I think this is exceptionally good advice. In fact they should have one suggesting not to let the wife near the device either, once she discovers how much you spent on it you will be hard pressed to explain your reasoning behind the purchase. Luckily for me my other half is the most amazing creature ever to bless the earth with the imprint of her foot, so I'm not in the doghouse, which is good.
2nd image shows the desk clamp profile.

The knobs that you turn to fasten the clamps are sleek and modern and seem to work just fine.

A nifty mechanism allows you to push and turn the knob to recess it tucking it neatly out of the way.

Tweaker

4th October 2006, 23:22

Here is the other video review of the G25 (best one so far imo)

http://59.186.253.11/movie/g25review.wmv

Danowat, you might want to add it to your first post :)

mcman

6th October 2006, 16:45

Anybody that already got his G25: Can you give me some measurements of the shifter (What are WxBxH of the part of the shifter that actually lies on the desk? How steep is the back rising? and so on)... I might have to extend my desk, so I have to figure out where while keeping a comfortable driving position...

When viewed from the side with the shifter mounted on the desk/table: distance from edge of mounting surface (desk/table) to the furthest back edge of the case (Button Panel) is 172 mm. Distance from the edge of the mounting surface to the front of the shifter is 90 mm (therefore, the overall length of the shifter is 262 mm). Maximum height from the mounting surface (top of desk/table) to the top edge of the case (Button Panel) is 118 mm (this is maximum height of the shifter also). Maximum width of the shifter is 140 mm.

Note: the "mounting templets" for G25 were posted on the Race Sim Central site by "Goo". The shifter templet has a side view on it that could be "scaled up" using the above numbers.

Hope this helps.

Tweaker

7th October 2006, 11:31

Sounds good, thanks for the pic and writeup.

Have you ever used the ACT Labs shifter? Wondering how it compares in feel to others on the market.
I owned the ACT Labs shifter, but sold it on Ebay. I actually did think it was a good shifter, I just didn't like some parts about it. For one the throw of the Act Labs shifter is a lot larger, and the gates were a bit deep so that you kind of had to be "casual" when using the GPL shifter. Being fast with the GPL shifter... well it was possible, but I just found it to be a bit strange. On top of that, the shifter came with a long metal bracket that looked like a ruler, and you clamp it on with a small vice grip included :pillepall. Hah, when I actually got the GPL shifter shipped to me, I thought I had left a vice grip out on my bed.... because I had one almost just like the one they gave me. So I was confused "how it got there" lol. But I later found out (to my dissapointment), that the shifter was clamped on with such a poor design. But the new one I never owned, and that has a new clamp system and better internals parts.

But both the GPL shifter and G25 shifter have good and bad points. Still, the G25 shifter is simple and quite good. I like the fact that they are short throws, has the boot (boot was for GPL shifter too, but sold out), and the the gates are pretty easy to feel with the G25 shifter. The only thing I wish it had just a "little" bit more of is some stronger tension, and a stronger "click & hold" when in a particular gate. But this doesn't mean the shifter is troublesome... once you get used to how it functions, it is a breeze to use (was like that with GPL shifter too). Though, the only part I have to get used to is the fact that you have 6 gear slots, and the push-down reverse is a bit chaotic when you are anxious and trying to be fast (like after a spin and trying to get back on track from a mistake). Also the push down feature kind of makes the shifter & knob have a springy vertical feel, which kind of takes some getting used to. It does want to go down even when in sequential mode. But you aren't pushing down on the stick when in sequential, so that doesn't matter. That is important too, most people need to know how-to hold this shifter correctly or they will complain probably. Whereas the GPL shifter is a straight shaft and just solid, so you don't have the springy vertical feel. But this doesn't make the G25 shifter impossible or annoying, you just have to use it properly.

Honestly though, I only use the shifter for enjoyment and realism for changing gears (like from 6th to 3rd). But I mostly always use paddles when I am racing seriously. The whole reason why I sold my Act Labs shifter was because it was hardly ever used (was in great condition) because it was just for entertainment. The G25 shifter is at least still there as an option, with a huge amount of other options available... that is what is so great about the G25... it has a complete package that lets you choose various configurations, and I like that. I never thought I'd have a handbrake for rallycross, and pulling back the sequential stick is perfect for that :D

Eric Tetz

11th October 2006, 20:26

except for the fact of few buttons
Doesn't bother me. Probably a sticking point some folks, but I guess that just means there's an aftermarket opportunity there.

Im waiting at least two months until you all try it out, and confirm my belief that G25 is nothing but a souped up DFP.
I'm sure by now you suspect this isn't true, but I can confirm it. I've been using it for several days (and losing sleep and showing up late to work because of it) and have done direct usage comparisons with the DFP. The G25 is head and shoulders a better wheel than the DFP.

For starters, it's a lot more precise. A Logitech guy on the RSC told us why, "the G25 is much more precise than DFP. DFP has three sets of gears between the optical encoder and the wheel. This means that the system must 'take up' the slack (backlash) in three places before the encoder starts to move. G25 has only one set of gears between the encoder disk and the wheel and uses a 'anti-backlash' gear to remove the space between those two gears. This means that when the wheel rotates the encoder rotates at exactly the same time."

The G25 is also running at 4 times the samping rate, "G25 is a full-speed USB device reporting at 500hz (as opposed to the DFP, which is low speed and reports at 125hz)."

However, the biggest difference to me is the turn speed. There is much less internal resistance to turning, you can whip the wheel around super fast without that 'pushing it through molassus' feeling you got with the DFP. In fact, the wheel will turn itself (via FF) like 3x faster than the DFP ever did, so letting the car automatically countersteer happens realistically fast with this wheel. It's feels much more like driving a real car.

After spending a day or two doing autocross with the G25, I hooked up the DFP (trying to isolate an issue on my computer) and was shocked. A slalom that I had been doing over and over again with the G25 was suddenly was difficult... and noisy... with the DFP motors whining in protest as I tried to whip it around the same way I did the G25.

Piddy summed it up a few days ago on RSC, "Compared to the DFP, the best part of the G25 is the FF and precision of the wheel. I can make and feel smaller adjustments to the steering. When larger corrections are required, there is far less internal resistance so throwing the wheel from side to side is easier and more rewarding."

Also, after using the G25, the DFP's pedals feel very spongy and imprecise. I loved my DFP, but using the G25 has proved very eye opening. I'm aware of flaws in the DFP now that I didn't see before.

Cue-Ball

12th October 2006, 16:37

I received my G25 last night and was able to try it out for about three hours using LFS. I know a lot of people are eagerly awaiting this wheel so I figured I'd post my initial impressions after a night of heavy use.

The first thing that gives you an impression is that the box seems smaller than you'd think and is a lot heavier than you'd think. Even though there's a third pedal and a shifter in there, it's not much bigger than the DFP box. My listed shipping weight was over 20lbs, so it's no lightweight either.

After unpacking the box and hooking everything up I came to a few conclusions. They made a very good decision by having the cables all plug in to a recessed portion of the wheel. No more problems with the power cord disconnecting in the middle of a race. Unfortunately, they also made a mistake with the wiring in that the wire to connect the pedals to the wheel is much too short. I should have measured the actual length before writing this review, but suffice it to say that the cord is barely long enough to reach and it quite often ends up in the way of my right foot when driving. I'm most likely going to have to make an extension cable using radio shack parts. This mistake is almost unforgiveable to me.

I uninstalled the old Wingman software and installed the new v.5 that comes with the G25. I left the Wingman software at 100% forces, but turned off the "extra" unnecessary forces and unchecked "combined pedals" (God only knows why this is checked as default). I plugged in the wheel and made sure it worked in the control panel applet, then opened LFS and set it up in game. Setup was quite easy. The throttle, brake, and clutch were setup correctly out of the box (I was using a DFP before, so this is probably why). I just had to configure the shifter and other buttons since they do not correspond to the ones on the DFP which I was using before. Make sure that when you try to setup LFS you choose "shifter" in the options. If you currently have a wheel you most likely have "sequential" selected.

Once I had a chance to use it in game I came away with several impressions of the device. First and foremost, this wheel is far and away better than the DFP. The circumference of the wheel itself is so much larger that it feels much more real in your hands. The wheel itself has less girth than the DFP which also makes it feel more realistic and less like a playstation controller. In addition, the leather on the wheel is very comfortable and looks great. However; after long driving sessions you may find that the stitching rubs your thumbs a bit raw. The wheel itself feels much more solid than the one on the DFP with less "play" in the steering and an overall heftier feel. Not to mention that the force feedback is superb. This is, bar none, the best force feedback wheel I've ever used and I prefer it to my friend's ECCI non-FF wheel. The forces are smooth and consistent and there's no "notchy" feeling that you get when you turn the DFP more than 90* or so. There's much less gear noise than you get with the DFP, but that's not to say the wheel is silent. The FF still generates noise which reverberates through your desk (or, at least, my desk). So, while it is quieter, don't expect it to be whisper quiet like an arcade machine driving wheel.

The pedals look and feel very nice. The metal finish adds a lot to the presentation and the base of the pedals is very hefty and sturdy. I get the impression that these pedals will last much longer and take much more abuse than anything else out there, save for the high-end stuff companies like ECCI and BRD make. The pedals are much stiffer than the previous stuff that logitech has released. The brake pedal in particular has a very satisfying heavy resistance which should make it easier to prevent locking up the brakes unintentionally. I do have a complaint about the pedals though. The gas and brake are too far apart, and the clutch and brake are too close together. I'm not sure who designed this, but they've got their dimensions all wrong. Because I now have a complete setup (clutch and H-shifter) I turned off all the aids in LFS. No more auto clutch, no more auto blip. With these aids off it is necessary to heel-toe the throttle and brake to get smooth downshifts. Doing this on the G25s pedals is difficult at best. Doing it without shoes on, which is the way I normally drive sims, can be downright painful. I have full intentions of removing the pedal pads and moving them so that the gas and brake are closer together. In addition, I may end up having to drive with shoes on because the edges of the pedals can be somewhat sharp and painful after a few hours of use. In fact, a friend of mine who also got his G25 had to finally stop driving last night because his feet hurt so badly. YMMV, of course.

Now, on to the shifter. The H-shifter included with this wheel was the thing I was most looking forward to and, it figures, the thing I'm most disappointed with. It's a nice looking unit which mounts very solidly to the desk. Unfortunately, the way in which it mounts places it very high and far away. The shift lever itself ends up at about the same height as the one on the DFP. Not a problem in sequential mode, but it can be difficult to handle in H-mode. The majority of the buttons for the G25 are on the shifter base and they are placed behind the shift lever itself (furthest away from you). This makes reaching the top buttons and hat a stretch, and makes hitting the bottom buttons difficult because they're blocked by the shifter. Also, the shifter itself leaves a lot to be desired. Gear engagements make a satisfying click, but the lever is so short, the gates are so close, and the springs are soft enough that mis-shifts were common for me. I definitely think that the shifter would benefit from being an inch or two longer and having a much heavier spring. I lost count of the number of times I downshifted from 5th to 2nd last night. Perhaps this would be less of an issue if the shifter were mounted lower in a more natural position, but without building a custom mounting spot I won't be able to test this theory. I think that the shifter assembly would have been a much better unit if it a) mounted lower b) had a longer shift lever c) had stiffer springs and d) had the buttons mounted behind the shifter instead of in front of it (closer to the driver).

All in all, the G25 is a huge improvement over the DFP. The wheel itself is far and away better and really can't even be compared other than the fact that they're made by the same company and both support 900* rotation. However; I feel that the shifter and pedals leave a lot to be desired. I had high hopes for this piece of equipment and now will end up disassembling much of it to see if I can fix the things that I'm not pleased with. This is of course all personal opinion based on my own experiece (and that of a friend) and you may have a different experience. But I do think that I've given a fair and honest review. If anyone has any questions about the wheel or accessories I'd be happy to try to answer them.

Tweaker

12th October 2006, 17:38

However; I feel that the shifter and pedals leave a lot to be desired. I had high hopes for this piece of equipment and now will end up disassembling much of it to see if I can fix the things that I'm not pleased with.
You aren't pleased with the pedals????????? What is there to dislike about them? They are best Logitech ones I've ever tried, and almost just like my spring modded red MOMO pedals. Plus they have a bigger footing and smooth surface so it makes using socks 10x better. Can do heel-toe just fine too. And if you want it like the "cheat" heel-toe where the pedals are extremely close together... well that is tough, I've never driven a car that has pedals only an inch apart. It's not Side-of-Foot-Toe, use your heel! :D

Though the shifter is strange at first, you need to get used to it. Using it for only a day must mean you are shifting like a noob (sorry, but friend used his first day and can't stop complaining that misshifts are the shifter's fault, when his own hand is doing the mistakes). I never was good at first with the Act-Labs shifter, nor this G25 shifter. They are toys, you need to learn how they work and feel. There never has been a stickshift that is like the real thing. But it's not like the shifter is hard to master.

Sorry, but how you mount the shifter is entirely up to you, however it being a "stretch" to reach the buttons, or the fact that the shifter is high to reach... are you sitting really low? I mount the shifter only like a hand's width apart from the wheel, and my arm isn't even fully extended when I shift. If you "reach" out for the shifter, than that is the cause of your shifting problems probably. Doing that makes the shifting more diagonal than forward-directional so to speak.... which is better for using a gear shifter on your desk I find.

It is good to see you think your view isn't quite fair, because there are numerous things that are preference and can take some getting used to, or need to be learned.

Cue-Ball

12th October 2006, 17:41

If possible with your desk you could mount the pedals upside down against the back of the desk, this would not only be more realistic, but should also fix the spacing issue? Its almost like Logi designed them for people to be able to do this. Might need to swap the clutch and pedals units or springs around though so you don't end up with a heavy throttle.I don't think this is really feasible. Unlike the DFP pedals the platform for these pedals extends behind the pedals quite a bit. I have a feeling this extension of the platform would get in the way if you tried to invert mount them. I haven't given a real close look to what it would take to disassemble and swap the gas and clutch pedal, but I somehow doubt it would be trivial. I think the easiest solution is going to be to remove the actual pedals themselves, drill a couple of new holes in the gas and brake, and then remount them closer to each other.

Thanks for the review btw. Sucks to hear most everyone thinks the shifter is too light, when mine turns up I look forward to having it apart and seeing what can be done to better optimize it for use in H gate mode (Logi's reasoning for it not having more resistance is because then it'd suck in sequential mode, but i don't ever really plan to use that).I hate to think about voiding my warrantee on a brand new piece of hardware, but the shifter really does bother me. I have a feeling that before the weekend is over I will have disassembled the shifter to see if I can lengthen the shaft and put in stiffer springs.

Cue-Ball

12th October 2006, 17:46

You aren't pleased with the pedals????????? What is there to dislike about them?No, I am not pleased with them. As I said in my review, the gas and brake pedals are too far apart while the clutch and brake pedals are too close together. This makes heel-toe (or in my case, side-of-foot - toe) hard to do.

Though the shifter is strange at first, you need to get used to it. Using it for only a day must mean you are shifting like a noob (sorry, but friend used his first day and can't stop complaining that misshifts are the shifter's fault, when his own hand is doing the mistakes). I never was good at first with the Act-Labs shifter, nor this G25 shifter. They are toys, you need to learn how they work and feel. There never has been a stickshift that is like the real thing.I don't want to have to "get used to it". I want something that feels authentic in the first place. If I can drive a stick shift car in real life, I should be able to drive a stick shift car in a sim. Of course I was the one making the mistakes in shifting. And I was making mistakes because the gates are very close and the stick is very short with soft springs. Also, because of the way the stick has to be pushed down for reverse, it's easy to put too much pressure on the stick and get it stuck between gears. As I've already said, I think that a longer shift lever and stiffer springs could work wonders. It's just a matter of figuring out how hard this will be to accomplish and whether or not the mechanism can take the extra abuse.

sethmobr

12th October 2006, 20:22

The change with the G25 is different. If you are coming from a standard 270* wheel, you will need a lot of practice to get used to a 900* wheel. If your upgrading from a DFP, I find it much easier to use and actually after about 5 minutes of getting the shifting and clutch down, I was actually faster then my times with my DFP.

I aggree with your thoughts on the shifter. It needs more resistance in the shifting. Nothing drastic, just more resistance so you can feel where your going. But after using it, its easy to figure out which gear is where and I hardly ever mis-shift. The buttons on the shifter are a bit awkward, they could have done a better job at implimenting them. I probably will only ever use the lower 4 red buttons, one for the rev limiter, one for the cars fuel, tires, and pitstop info. I dont really care for the mounting hardware though. I have a glass desk and is somewhat thin. The clamps only clamp down so far and i cant clamp it down tight unless I put something under ths shifter to raise it up a bit(I used about 5 CDs). Doesnt really matter though as I am going to build a new cockpit in a few weeks and impliment the shifter into the pit.

The pedals are great for what they are. I have no problems heal-and-toeing. I have size 13 feet and just use socks and have no problem at all reaching the brake and gas pedal with the same foot.

Other then the slight defect mine had in the wheel, I think its a very good buy for the price. The shift could use a bit more engineering, but the wheel is pretty darn close to perfect. I love the feel(dont have the thumb chaffing like you did). The overall diameter is great, its at least 1" larger in diameter and does indeed feel like more like a real wheel(not stock, but an undersized aftermarket wheel).

I think that about somes it up.

Tweaker

12th October 2006, 21:37

Cueball: Thanks! Nice reasoned review, very worthy. I'll continue to follow your discussions with Tweak (Tweak: Sorry but you are sounding a bit like you're suffering from "proud owner" syndrome so far, but it's nice to hear a contrasting view) to get a good gauge of opinion.

+several for this thread. :thumb:
It's not any "proud owner" syndrome, it is just that you can't take something and be instanstly satisfied without learning something. Nothing you buy is ever 100% as expected is it? I am satisfied with the G25, regardless if it has two buttons on the wheel, or if the shifter isn't like the real thing.

I mean Cue-Ball mentions he is stretching to grab the buttons, and that the shifter can pinch him??? :zombie: Some of these things honestly sound like exagerrations to me, it is nothing like that. And if you put the wheel on a table, and the shifter right beside it, of course it isn't low like in a real car :doh: But having it mounted so that you reach over and have trouble to touch the buttons? I guess that is how some people will initially try this, but mount it just to the right of the wheel with some gap, and I don't find myself "reaching" for anything at all. Either he sits low, and really far back with arms extended (common tip from real drivers, you shouldn't drive like that), or he just has it mounted in far places...

Any wheel I've bought I was never satisfied because it took some getting used to. But all wheels I have owned have been world record capable, so it doesn't mean that any particular "flaws" in this design will make you slower or annoyed. I was dissapointed that I wouldn't have a button on the wheel for pit limiter, but after using one of the red buttons on the shifter console as the limiter button, I don't find that difficult at all to press on and off when in pit situations. Which is why some people need to not jump to conclusions, because initial reactions to a product you buy are most likely to change after longer use.

For $300, it isn't a "you get what you paid for" deal where it denotes the product as being a cheap-o steal with basic controls. It still is a good wheel... and I'd be much happier spending $300 on a G25 than going out and buying expensive simulation equipment for two or three times the amount. I have a Red MOMO, and I "swore" it was the best wheel, and many people claim it is. But at the moment it is stowed away in my closest because it is JUNK compared to the G25. That's all I have to say. :tilt:

Bob Smith

13th October 2006, 16:05

I've made this thread by trawling through the 700 odd posts about the G25 and picking out the relevant ones that are "reviewy" for the benefit of anyone interested. So it might seem a little disjointed. :)

der_jackal

13th October 2006, 22:30

. Also, because of the way the stick has to be pushed down for reverse, it's easy to put too much pressure on the stick and get it stuck between gears.

Welcome to Volkswagen / Audi-Land, at least the Logi shifter reverse is off of 5th / 6th gear gate, try going down to first and fearing a reverse engagment.... ;)

But then again, the ease of pushing down during actual usage in the Audi isn't that light. :P

sethmobr

13th October 2006, 22:56

My roommate has a 99 VW Jetta that has the weird reverse engange ment. It felt so strange going into first for reverse! Id prefer my real car to have a standard reverse at the end of the gate.

tristancliffe

13th October 2006, 23:00

My roommate has a 99 VW Jetta that has the weird reverse engange ment. It felt so strange going into first for reverse! Id prefer my real car to have a standard reverse at the end of the gate.

It's called a dog leg first, and has certain advantages. As you only ever use 1st for getting away from a standstill, it doesn't need to be easy to change into 2nd, but in regular driving the change from 2nd to 3rd, and 4th to 5th is now a simple cross-gate move, rather than a forwards, right, forwards move. So for fast-road use a dog-leg first is much preferred.

However, it seems as though the 'standard' system is (as is often the case) the sub-par method, and then people find it wierd driving a decent 'box.

Eric Tetz

13th October 2006, 23:36

I mean Cue-Ball mentions he is stretching to grab the buttons, and that the shifter can pinch him??? Some of these things honestly sound like exagerrations to me, it is nothing like that.

I have very long fingers and I find reaching the buttons to be quite a stretch if you are reaching over the shifter. You almost end up hitting the red buttons with your finger nails. If you come at the buttons from the side then there is no stretching involved, but now you are banging your knuckles on the shifter. Simply put, the buttons are awkwardly placed, but I'm not sure what else they could have done.

It's all about design compromise. I think they took the buttons off the wheel to reduce rotational inertia. They shrunk down the central hub considerably and took tons of material out of it, and made the wheel grip thinner. This let them bump the wheel diameter up while still having a wheel light enough to respond very quickly to the force feedback motors. However they did it, the resulting wheel feels great. It's super fast and responsive, with very little FF lag.

As an overall package, G25 kicks major ass. I loved my DFP, but to anybody buying a wheel today (especially if they play Live for Speed): save up the extra scratch for the G25. The DFP is tolerable if you never go beyond 270 degrees from lock to lock, but if you want to go beyond that, you really want a G25.

Tweaker

13th October 2006, 23:52

I have very long fingers and I find reaching the buttons to be quite a stretch if you are reaching over the shifter. You almost end up hitting the red buttons with your finger nails. If you come at the buttons from the side then there is no stretching involved, but now you are banging your knuckles on the shifter. Simply put, the buttons are awkwardly placed, but I'm not sure what else they could have done.
I guess it is the way people sit at their desk and hold the wheel. If people are sitting far back and stretching their arms to hold the wheel like their are driving a rocket in hyperspace, then that is a horrible way to drive. Real driving schools recommend that you sit closer to the wheel so that your elbows have quite a bit of bend in them. This also reduces fatigue (the closer you are, the less tired you become (eg Nascar)). If you are sitting really far back, of course it is going to hard to reach the buttons, but I can have just a slight bend in my elbow, and I can reach the buttons just fine. I can even put my hand to the right of the shifter, and use my thumb for the top black buttons. That shows how much ease it is for me to press the buttons. If you are stretching for dear life trying to touch those buttons, I suggest sitting in a different position. Because I just cannot comprehend how someone would have trouble reaching the buttons, and then say it is a design flaw. :zombie:
It's all about design compromise. I think they took the buttons off the wheel to reduce rotational inertia. They shrunk down the central hub considerably and took tons of material out of it, and made the wheel grip thinner. This let them bump the wheel diameter up while still having a wheel light enough to respond very quickly to the force feedback motors. However they did it, the resulting wheel feels great. It's super fast and responsive, with very little FF lag.
Those buttons are like a few grams or something, very light. They could've easily added more... but the only reason I can see why would be because of the design of the wheel's spokes. Adding more buttons on that and/or thickening up the metal would just look pretty dumb. The wheel is very lightweight, but a few more buttons would hardly affect rotation I think.

bbman

14th October 2006, 00:26

I don't have my set yet, but I can see that there can be problems reaching the buttons on the shifter even if you're sitting close up... From the very first picture I've seen from the shifter set, I thought: "How the hell am I supposed to reach those buttons blindly without the risk of knocking the lever out of gear?" From the look of all the fotos, there is no direct, thus comfortable way of reaching the buttons behind the shifter... It's either reaching the buttons over the shifter or trying to get to them from either side...

Gunn

14th October 2006, 03:08

The shifter gets easier as you practice as does heel-toe. If you are struggling with the shifter and missing gears a lot take heart that it will improve as you become more familiar with the shifter. Sequential mode works very well too (and is quiet), a lot of fun in the FZR.

Putting the buttons on the shifter was a big mistake by Logitech but it does eliminate a lot of stretching cable issues and benefits the mechanical design of the wheel assembly. The buttons are hard to reach because the stick is in the way, really stupid design. If the shifter can be mounted closer to your body and lower than desk-height it would be more suitable for button use.

I've been using the clutch and h-gate a lot and it really is satisfying once you get the hang of it. I had to adjust my setups a bit to alter the brake strength and bias to suit the new brake pedal feel and to help with heel-toe. I also adjusted some gear ratios for 1st and 2nd to make clutching more appropriate on launch.

I will be building a mechanical handbrake though, there is no button in a good place to use as a handbrake, the two buttons on my wheel are mapped to look left/right. This is an unfortunate oversight by Logitech, and they were given plenty of feedback during the design process but to no avail.

Regardless of these shortcomings the G25 still comes up a winner for me. You can drive so hard with this thing and it feels like it can withstand rough handling without any trouble. Lap times have improved across the board, probably due to smoother throttle/brake and steering I'm getting with this wheel.

Too expensive, but bloody great to use. I'm enjoying more cars in LFS than ever before.

Eric Tetz

14th October 2006, 04:04

If people are sitting far back and stretching their arms to hold the wheel like their are driving a rocket in hyperspace, then that is a horrible way to drive.

My G25 is hooked up to a normal computer desk. I imagine most G25 users will setup theirs the same. The shifter is within easy reach, just to the right of the wheel.

I'm 6'2" guitarist/pianist with long fingers. I find reaching over the shifter knob to get to the buttons is awkward. With the shifter ball in the palm of my hand, my fingers are fully extended to reach the buttons (especially the red buttons). Using the d-pad with the tips of fully extended fingers is funky. I can reach the buttons by coming in from the sides, to avoid the shifter, but that's awkward, too. Coming in from the left, you have to be careful not to bump the shifter with your knuckles; from the right, you are facing your palm out and turning your thumb down, which is awkward, too.

If you find the buttons to be conveniently placed, consider yourself lucky. Judging from the user impressions I've read, I'd say you're a minority.

Personally, I don't care at all. I love the wheel, I love the whole package, and the button placement doesn't bother me, but I think it's kinda wierd that you're telling someone who doesn't like the layout that he's straight-up wrong, as if there's something wrong with him if he doesn't share your opinion, when you can just look at the thing and see the problem.

I just cannot comprehend how someone would have trouble reaching the buttons, and then say it is a design flaw.

I don't consider it a design flaw, I consider it a design compromise.

Those buttons are like a few grams or something, very light. They could've easily added more... but the only reason I can see why would be because of the design of the wheel's spokes.

More buttons = more wires = larger wheel spokes and central hub to accommodate them, right? I could be totally full of shit here, I'm just guessing. However, I tend to guess with the underlying assumption that the engineers at Logitech are smart guys who have put a hell of a lot more thought into this wheel than any of us have.

Regardless of these shortcomings the G25 still comes up a winner for me. You can drive so hard with this thing and it feels like it can withstand rough handling without any trouble. Lap times have improved across the board, probably due to smoother throttle/brake and steering I'm getting with this wheel. Too expensive, but bloody great to use. I'm enjoying more cars in LFS than ever before.

I totally agree. This wheel has turned LFS into a whole new game for me. Although I don't think it's too expensive. I'm amazed at what they managed to bring to market for a mere 300 bones. :)

T.K.Jode

24th October 2006, 15:55

Alright, here's a review for all of you. :)

Just for some background, my previous wheels were as follows:

Act-Labs Force RS /w Perf Pedals & GPL Shifter
Logitech Driving Force Pro (tossed their pedals, kept my Perf Peds & Shifter)

Now I have my hands on the Logitech G25 wheel, here are my initial impressions:

First of all, I was expecting the wheel diameter to be bigger based on what everyone has been going on about. Yes, it's maybe 1/4 of an inch bigger than the DFP, but I'm pretty sure my leather-wrapped Act-Labs wheel was even bigger than this one. Not that I'm disappointed, it's a great, sporty quick steering wheel nonetheless.

Force Feedback, excellent. This wheels' FFB is to the DFP as the DFP was to my Act-Labs wheel. It's a great step up and it's much tighter and quieter than the DFP. Like most people, I've left the Wingman settings at 100%, turned off Centering Force and I have LFS set around 48% Force and it feels great.

Tracking, excellent. There's no more center play, or directional play in the wheel like there used to be on the DFP. The new crazy system they use to take the slack up and make their optical tracking thing super-precise works great.

Pedals, OK. I find my feet rub together when I'm on the clutch & brake. I still think in terms of layout the Act-Labs Performance Pedals are better. The feel of the pedals is good, and the method they use to provide resistance on the brake & clutch seems to me like it will be a little more durable than the failure-laden Act-Labs products.

Shifter, Awesome. I don't care what everyone else says that this shifter is weird to use, or you have button pressing issues, etc. When you're racing, why are you trying to hit all these buttons?! My focus is on steering and shifting. The shifter gates are small and quick. It took me only 15 minutes last night to get the feel down. You can slam it around and it responds excellently. The push down reverse is pretty cool as well, if not a little infuriating when you're trying to back out of a spill, but hey, that's racing. My only complaint about the shifter is the footprint under the desk. Usually I have my mouse beside the keyboard on the tray, this shifter takes up that entire space where my mouse was, forcing me to move my mouse up onto the main part of my desk. A small sacrifice if you ask me.

Overall quality: Supreme. Logitech pulled out a lot of stops on this product, and they're starting to compete with the big boys like ECCI with this regular consumer-minded kit. The brushed steel is a nice touch and the hand-wrapped leather, although not original (Act-Labs did this first), the quality is above and beyond what anyone else has come up with so far.

See you all on the track :)

spankmeyer

31st October 2006, 14:52

Previous wheels:

1) MS Precision Pro
2) Logitech Driving Force Pro
3) The unholy alliance of MS pedals and DFP wheel as Logitech's el cheapo plastiko pedals crapped themselves finally

First impressions of G25 and incoherent babbling:

"You sure this is the right box?"

I was expecting a lot bigger box, but behold - the G25 was wrapped snuggly inside when I tore her clothes off and pushed my hands insid-- nevermind. Ahh the delicious smell of new electronics; wrapped up in cold steel, smooth leather and [insert sexy word] plastic.

Eyebrow raising letters on the sealed driver envelope inside: "Rev. 0.5"

[getting bored, must continue later]

Anywhoo. In my first LFS session with the G25 I nailed a new pb, but more importantly I was a lot more consistent and driving fast felt easier. The G25's accuracy, sharp inputs, low noise and very solid construction makes DFP feel really B-quality.

Paul_McCluskey

31st October 2006, 14:57

good to hear, I would be dissappointed if it didnt feel a step up from the dfp

Previous wheels:

1) MS Precision Pro
2) Logitech Driving Force Pro
3) The unholy alliance of MS pedals and DFP wheel as Logitech's el cheapo plastiko pedals crapped themselves finally

First impressions of G25 and incoherent babbling:

"You sure this is the right box?"

I was expecting a lot bigger box, but behold - the G25 was wrapped snuggly inside when I tore her clothes off and pushed my hands insid-- nevermind. Ahh the delicious smell of new electronics; wrapped up in cold steel, smooth leather and [insert sexy word] plastic.

Eyebrow raising letters on the sealed driver envelope inside: "Rev. 0.5"

[getting bored, must continue later]

Anywhoo. In my first LFS session with the G25 I nailed a new pb, but more importantly I was a lot more consistent and driving fast felt easier. The G25's accuracy, sharp inputs, low noise and very solid construction makes DFP feel really B-quality.

glyphon

31st October 2006, 15:16

all these reviews are driving (haha) me crazy. i want my g25.

*deep breaths* one more day...

Bob Smith

1st November 2006, 15:11

Just moved a couple of posts out of this thread and into general discussion. So don't worry, I've not deleted anything, just trying to keep this thread to only review. Cheers.

Robster230

2nd November 2006, 15:07

Well i've had the wheel a few hours now and tried with as many combos as possible... and here goes...

WHAT A LOAD OF CR*P!!

hahhaa only joking! :schwitz:

It's AWESOME! I'll list my favourite parts in order..

1. The Brake Pedal... It's awesome, it feels so damn good and I can now take the fox into the last bend of AS2 without locking up and still be as fast! GREAT!

2. The Wheel feedback/speed... when the wheel goes light now and you let it spin it's amazing, it feels so damn real (well, as close as we'll get for a while)

3. The Shifter in general.. ok so it's quite toy like, but it's brilliant to use, i've just finished 3 laps of Aston North in the LX4 using heel and toe (not something i've used much before but my last car had a racing clutch so needed to do it) and it's great... I think we'll see a LOT more LXx servers when the G25's start landing in their hundreds.

Also no-one has mentioned the shifter in sequential mode... I think it's ace, and will use it with RBR and any other driving game where you might not have paddles or a 6-gate.

4. EVERYTHING else, I love it all.... ok i have proud ownder disease at the moment, but it's rare to buy something and not find a reasonable niggle early. (xbox360 was also like this by the way, impressed!)

Anyway, screw you guys, i'm going back to my LX4 :D

Jakg

2nd November 2006, 15:26

...:( - my Momo seems to not like being turned to quickly now, yet i've just bought new pedals for it :(

Now i hear that i really want one, lets just hope they make a wheel-only one (unlikely :( )

glyphon

2nd November 2006, 15:32

it came yesterday. and i gotta say, i love it. i suck at driving with the 6-speed, but thankfully there are paddle shifters.

the best part though is the pedals. there is more resistance on the brake pedal, and it increases the further the pedal is depressed, so it gives a pretty realisitc pedal feel. it actually allows me to brake later going into corners because i have a better feeling for the lockup threshold.

one thing i'm not use to is the 900 deg. rotation for the wheel. my old wheel was 180 deg. and i'm used to catching a slide from that rotation amount. With the extra rotation amount, i'm catching the slide ok, but once the tires bite, i'm getting a nasty snap oversteer that i can't catch. i'll get used to it, but its a slight issue i'm having right now. i'm getting better though.

anyways...on to the pics.

pedals. been down for less than a day and already covered in dog hair.
http://komaru.org/gallery2/d/6702-2/DSCF8529.JPG

wheel and shifter
http://komaru.org/gallery2/d/6707-2/DSCF8530.JPG

Robster230

2nd November 2006, 15:40

Lol @ hairy pedals! :D

If you're not used to the 900 degrees, try going up in steps, it's a good way to learn, try 270, then 320 etc and up in small steps. Get good at each before moving on

tristancliffe

2nd November 2006, 16:03

The brake pedal is good, but a bit too far from the throttle for comfy heel and toeing. But I'll get used to it eventually. On most road cars I can't help but heel and toe (it's automatic now), but it just feels odd on the G25 at the moment.

The wheel when it auto-countersteers is awesome. Still not quite fast enough, but it'll recover big LX6 slides on it's own, just like in real life (ok, not JUST like real life, but pretty damn close for a feedback driven motor system).

The H-shifter is good, but a bit too underspringed for me. And I'm getting annoyed that I can select a gear in LFS perfectly, bug not have it register because the clutch wasn't done enough. In real life you'd feel the gear through the lever and know it hadn't worked, but that's a big problem, and would required switched magnets and mechanisms talking to the sim.

The sequential mode is good - feels sturdy, and I've enjoying slamming up and down the gears in this way. I have it close to the wheel, so it's a very natural movement! But the buttons, being behind the shifter, are difficult to get at without knocking the gear lever, or talking your eye off the road for ages. Shame.

The pedal wire could be a few feet longer, as could the power cable (transformer to wheel end).

Surprisingly few gripes for something SO different to my known and loved Momo/ECCI.

Robster230

2nd November 2006, 16:38

Good review, I agree on the underspringed shifter actually, wonder how stiff a spring you could use before it'd pull itself out of gear hmm

FlipFlop

2nd November 2006, 21:17

Rtsbasic

2nd November 2006, 23:56

The highpoint of the whole setup is definately the actual wheel for me. Feels a notch up from everything else I've used. I wasn't expecting a big difference from my old DFP but there's definately one - quieter, more precise, lot easier to catch slides with full rotation. Only having 2 buttons hasn't troubled me in the slightest. Did have to sand down the paddles a bit as one of them cut my finger (sharp edges).

The pedals, well to be honest they aren't as good as I was expecting. The travel is shorter than the Act Labs set I had, the clutch spring is a bit stiffer than I like, and I had to spend 20 mins taking them apart to tighten the throttle arm up as it was very loose from the factory. But once you get going with them they do the job well and feel good. They feel (and look internally) like they should last a lot better than the old Logi's.

The shifter, I think its not bad, could do with being a bit firmer, but you can drive it with a heavy hand and it feels solid enough, doesn't feel like it'll fail either. Nice it clicks when your in gear, otherwise it'd be hard to tell with such little resistance.The shifts are short and take less time than with my old Act Labs one. I can't understand the people who say they can't reach the buttons, I can reach them all fine. I have it mounted down to my left similar to a real car. Didn't like it much when it was level with the wheel. And when in sequential mode, it clicks when downshifting like it catches something, damned annoying.

Pedals cable is way too short, could do with being a couple of ft longer. The rest are good length's though.

Overall well chuffed, it actually lives up to the hype, thats unusual these days.

M.Mos

3rd November 2006, 01:36

Hi there,
i am wondering if the feeling while steering with high force feedback (like centering spring) is normal. Yeah thats is normal. It's caused by the cheap BDC Motors which have a good amount of magnetic cogging, and torque ripple during commutation. It requires very high quality servo motors to get rid of it, but a single motor costs more then a G25 set. Of course the cogwheels have a coggy feel too, but not much when seperated from the motor.

mcman

3rd November 2006, 05:36

Hi there,
i am wondering if the feeling while steering with high force feedback (like centering spring) is normal.
While driving the BF1 in long curves like Kyoto you make very little turns with the wheel, which is really annoying because I can sense every single tooth of the cogwheel of the force feedback drive.

Is anybody else having this problem/feeling?
This feeling (refered to as cogging) results from the interaction of the rotor windings with the permanent magents of DC motors. G25 uses a greatly reduced gear ratio which makes the effect even more noticeable (but which leads to higher wheel speeds and greatly reduced gear/inertia losses that give G25 it's unique functionality). To offset this effect G25 uses five pole motors wound to minimize cogging. It is a balance between cogging, maximum torque and cost. These motors are designed specfically for G25 and are not "off the shelf" motors. As you lower your torque settings the cogging feel is greatly reduced.

Gunn

3rd November 2006, 07:37

First of all, I was expecting the wheel diameter to be bigger based on what everyone has been going on about. Yes, it's maybe 1/4 of an inch bigger than the DFP, but I'm pretty sure my leather-wrapped Act-Labs wheel was even bigger than this one.
It's at least 2cm bigger than a Momo which in turn is bigger than the DFP.

FlipFlop

3rd November 2006, 09:35

Thanks M.Mos and mcman for your answers.

The effect from the motors is something I assumed too. But I am still wondering if there is some other problem, because if I set the FF to a certain strength and use a comparable FF strenght with my old Momo Racing, the cogging is much bigger with the G25!?

I saw some pictures from the inside of the wheel where the big cogwheel is seperated axial to get rid of backlash. Couldn't it be that there is a problem (missing springs for example?

I think if this effect (in this dimension) is normal to the G25 that would be a shame, because the Momo Racing feels much better while driving a BF1 on long curves.:(

M.Mos

3rd November 2006, 13:56

FlipFlop, Mcman already answered that. It's because the G25 has a much reduced gear ratio then the DFP. Now it is more noticable but you can turn the wheel faster and with less noise. As Mcman said its a compromise about price and quality. The main problem remains the commutation process of the brushes. The Motor in FFB wheels operate in stall mode or at very low rpm's most of the time, this has high requirements on the motor. A cheaper solution then using a zero-cog BDC motor could be to use a brushless motor with smart software control (sinusiodial current control), which i thought logitech is going for when i first read about the G25.

I don't thing it's a problem with the spring, but you have to open it to be sure.

What are your FF settings in LFS and in control panel?

FlipFlop

3rd November 2006, 15:43

M.Mos, i don't know the DFP but probably the Momo Racing Force has a similar ratio. So I understand the technical circumstances Mcman described, but I am still wondering about the extend of the effect compared to cheaper wheels.

In control panel I set FF to 100% and in LFS to 50% which is the lowest I want to use because otherwise the wheel gets to wishy-washy at low speeds.

In all reviews I read, nobody complained about this effect. But maybe I am just to sensitive (which i can't believe).
If the shop where I bought it, would still have it in stock, I would go exchange it, but now I have to risk my warranty by opening it. And if there is no defect I think I return it, because it bothers me to much.:( Everything else on the wheel is really fantastic so far.

Davo

3rd November 2006, 15:57

In control panel I set FF to 100% and in LFS to 50% which is the lowest I want to use because otherwise the wheel gets to wishy-washy at low speeds.

I think the problem is the high FF you have setup. I use 50% in control panel and 60% in LFS and it seems right for me. Here are my settings ignore the red circle.

I found it's better to go up in force in LFS rather than the logitech profiler because the wheel became too hard to turn and very stiff. So try a lower setting in Logi and higher in LFS.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/9854/g25setip4.png

M.Mos

3rd November 2006, 16:55

I suggest 115-125% in Control panel. Why i do it, well check it out yourself with FFconst.exe, it allows you to manualy send the same FF effect as LFS does. With 100% you will notice a deadzone in the middle i.e. you can drag the slider a bit but the wheel does not move. When you set it to 115%-125% you will notice that the wheel instantly reacts to small slider movements. In LFS i have set it very low, 10-30% depending on car and set.

Davo

3rd November 2006, 17:31

Works fine for me, I move the wheel the incar wheel moves or the little slider thing down the bottom moves too. :shrug:

If I use mose force the wheel just becomes very heavy and hard to move. I'd need to lift weights or something to move it with anything over 100% force.

DanneDA

3rd November 2006, 19:59

Okay a review

The Wheel:
The wheel feels great, the force feedback is much better than my on my old wheel (Microsoft Sidewinder FFB), have much better precision than the old wheel too. I feel the car being more stable with this wheel, though I'm not as fast as with the old wheel or have perfect car control, but that will come with experience, give me a few weeks and I'll get similar times.

The Pedals:
All of the pedals are stiffer than on my old wheel (G25 throttle requires more force to move than the brake on the old wheel). I have a lot more control of the pedals than on my old wheel too, no problem with them not responding to my commands. I shall say that the brake is quite stiff, way stiff. Will take some time getting used to how much force I actually have to apply to be fast.
Let's not forget that I keep pushing the wrong pedal when using the H-gate with clutch. Will take some time getting used to use 3 pedals instead of 2, thats for sure.

The shifter:
Not as good as the wheel and pedals, very easy to get the wrong gear selected. Also managed to make the shifter come off the table it was attached to. Unlike others I haven't gotten into reverse by mistake, nor have I accidently moved the stick when using the buttons on the shifter. One problem that I do have, sometimes I can't the stick to stick in a gear position. Will learn this too, with time.

Overall:
Great wheel and pedals, good shifter. Well worth the price.

Tested it in NFS: Carbon too, and worked somewhat okay, managed to use the shifter without even touching the clutch, not so realitstic there. Though, what can you expect from a crap game?

spankmeyer

3rd November 2006, 21:09

The shifter:
Not as good as the wheel and pedals, very easy to get the wrong gear selected. Also managed to make the shifter come off the table it was attached to.

Ehhh.... :confused: I'd have to disagree with those and ask a question: could you post a vid of your shifting behavior? :D

glyphon

3rd November 2006, 21:10

The wheel: 95
Love it. Nice look, nice feel, great precision. Like i've mentioned before (someplace else on the forum), my old wheel was a 180deg wheel, so the 900deg rotation is taking a bit of getting used to, although someone gave the good advice of incrementally increasing the rotation to get used to it. i'll have to definately try that.

Pedals: 99
Absolutely love the pedals. It'd be nice if the clutch pedal was a bit further away, but other than that they are great. i love the feel of the pedals. i've found that i can brake later and remain control, which is nice, and should eventually equate to faster times.

Shifter: 90
No issues with the shifter. Haven't had a problem with missed shifts (the throw is actually fairly close to my actual car's). Haven't had a problem with knocking it out of gear either. Only thing is that in 2nd gear it crowds my right hand on the wheel, but that's more of an issue of how i have the wheel and shifter setup on my desk, so i'm not counting that issue. button's are a bit obscured, but not probitivily so, and its really only an issue in 2,4,6/r gears. in the other gears, my fingers are long enough to reach the buttons from the shifter.

overall: 96
great controller set. leagues better than the DF i upgraded from. well worth the price, and i'd recommend it to anyone that can afford its price...and if you can't afford it, save up. its that good.

also, don't knock NFSC too much on it's clutch funtionality...LFS is the same way ;)

tristancliffe

3rd November 2006, 21:11

Tested it in NFS: Carbon too, and worked somewhat okay, managed to use the shifter without even touching the clutch, not so realitstic there. Though, what can you expect from a crap game?

You can do that in nKP too - I've been trying it with the shifter (edit the actlabs.ini file and but the button numbers in the appropriate place [the same number LFS shows]), and you don't NEED the clutch to change either.

Though, what can you exp... whoops :D

DanneDA

3rd November 2006, 21:30

Ehhh.... :confused: I'd have to disagree with those and ask a question: could you post a vid of your shifting behavior? :D

Only use the fingertips to change gear (=no force), and probably because of that I'll have an easy time missing to move leaver to the correct position.

Also how do you change to seq. for the stick? The switch get stuck sorta halfway, and I don't want to break it moving it further.

Rtsbasic

3rd November 2006, 21:59

Push the stick down and turn the switch to engage seq mode.

Try being a bit more agressive with the shifter if your only using your fingertips on it - I've barely missed a gear all day between LFS/NFSC I think because I throw it into gear quite firm.

Davo

4th November 2006, 21:48

The pedals, well to be honest they aren't as good as I was expecting. The travel is shorter than the Act Labs set I had, the clutch spring is a bit stiffer than I like, and I had to spend 20 mins taking them apart to tighten the throttle arm up as it was very loose from the factory. But once you get going with them they do the job well and feel good. They feel (and look internally) like they should last a lot better than the old Logi's.

Tightening the throttle up how does it feel? More like the clutch stiffness? I'm finding I'm having trouble controlling the amount of throttle, basically I'm always flooring it because I have no feeling in the pedal. Is it worth taking them apart to get the throttle a little harder?

Jakg

4th November 2006, 21:53

The pedals, well to be honest they aren't as good as I was expecting. The travel is shorter than the Act Labs set I had, the clutch spring is a bit stiffer than I like,
Yay! i have an excuse not to buy one! I love how much travel the accelerator has on his old (and now my!) pedals!

I could buy one and then not use the pedals though.... do'h.

/me counts the pennies

sshhaabb

4th November 2006, 22:20

Not too impressed with it i think there is a software problem even though the steering seems to be precise i have not broken my PB with it. The FF to me is a problem and the accelaration.

See my post on G25 Software.

Rtsbasic

5th November 2006, 12:42

Davo, I'm pretty certain it isn't any stiffer than it should be - I just tightened it up enough to stop it moving side to side, didn't want to overtighten it and cause the bushing to bind and prematurely wear out. The spring tension feels fine anyway, the throttle feels just like the C4 I drive.

If I had to name a single improvement for Logi's next wheel I would say give it more pedal travel. I was much more precise on the throttle with the Act Labs. I love the construction of these pedals though, very shiny inside :)

Encountered another minor prob as well - after a few hours use it produces more vibration turning left than right. Doesn't effect the FF feel, but it does make keys rattle if they're on the desk.

Davo

5th November 2006, 13:23

Rtsbasic

5th November 2006, 13:58

The spring looks like you could switch one out a 1/5 scale radio controlled buggy or truck perhaps. Or you could try not being so heavy footed :p

mcman

5th November 2006, 16:18

Davo, I'm pretty certain it isn't any stiffer than it should be - I just tightened it up enough to stop it moving side to side, didn't want to overtighten it and cause the bushing to bind and prematurely wear out. The spring tension feels fine anyway, the throttle feels just like the C4 I drive.
G25 pedals use "Shoulder bolts" and therefore cannot cause the bushing to bind. That is, a shoulder bolt has a lip/stop at the end of the threads so when the nut (in this case a self locking nylock nut) is tightened down the side of the pedal frame is squeezed, but the bolt does not "pull through" squeezing all of the parts in between. This is a much more expensive bolt/nut to use, but it really improves overall manufacturing consistency.

510N3D

6th November 2006, 09:21

thanks for those reviews/ previews, i have ordered the wheel yesterday and its gone take 1- 2 weeks untill i can plug it in. I have got a question to the (ex)-momo (black) users. Since the DFP and the G25 has got 900° compared to the 240° i would like to know the differences. Is it now harder/ easier to drive? It may be offer more precision in fast corners but also makes it harder at slow speed corners. But thats what i want to make sure. :tilt: Any Experiences?

tristancliffe

6th November 2006, 09:46

Yes, it is a bit harder if you use lots of lock - catching slides is a bit harder because you have to spin the wheel a bit more, but the extra precision sort of makes driving without sliding in the first place a bit easier. Rather than going from 270 degrees to 720 in one go, it might be best to go up a bit at a time. 360, then 540, then 720, and get used to each for a day or two.

I've got used to the additional steering lock quite quickly really, so don't let that concern you much. It's not SO different to make you have to forget how to drive in LFS and start again.

510N3D

6th November 2006, 11:14

allright i think ill have to find that out soon :D Thanks for that :thumb:

glyphon

6th November 2006, 15:18

i have to agree with tristan's comments on the additional rotation...except my old DF only had 180deg, but i've still adjusted pretty nicely. the only area that is still a bit of a problem is catching slides.

to be more precise, i can catch the slide just fine, it's coming out of the slide that i have a problem with...i can't get the wheel turned back in time and end up with a snap oversteer in the other direction. but i'm sort of getting better at correcting that problem, and he's right, the extra precision does help in avoiding that situation in the first place.

Matrixi

6th November 2006, 18:44

Ok, spent an hour or two with the G25 and here are my impressions.

I've had an 2,5 month break from steering wheels, only occasionally had a lap or two with mouse/kb. My previous wheel was a DFP with a clutch pedal from another DFP and a Act-Labs shifter, so I got immediately used to the G25 clutch and shifter.

I'll start with the bad things of this wheel:

The shifter is tiny and very flimsy. Almost feels like a little toy in your palm. The G25 shifter has it's good sides and bad sides compared to the Act-Labs shifter. Good sides are that it has incredibly short throws which allow ultra quick shifts, bad sides are the toyness and the feel that it's going to crumble to bits when you really slam those gears in fast. I also felt an very odd shift pattern inside the G25 shifter, I was drifting the FZ5 around and changed in to sixth and the gearstick stayed in sixth for a second and then dropped to neutral. But, the shifter is better than nothing for sure. I wish Logitech could have combined the sturdiness of the AL shifter and the quick shifting capability of the G25 shifter.

The clutch is too stiff, atleast when I used the pedals with only socks in my feet. It might be better with shoes on, which I'm going to try tomorrow. Also the wheel diameter itself could still be bigger. My old Act-Labs wheel still beats the G25 wheel in diameter.

Ok, that's it. Bad points over, now to the good points:

I love this wheel. I really really really really really really really love it. This is like from another world compared to the DFP. The wheel countersteers by itself just like it should. Amazing. The FFB feeling itself is great too. All pedals operate without any spiking that I could notice. The real leather slides nicely in your grip when you want it to slide and catch that slide. The quality and finish of this wheel is simply put STUNNING!

So, do I think it's worth the 300 euros? Oh hell yes. If you've had an DFP you're going to be amazed how much better this wheel is. If you've only had 200 or 270 degree wheels, you're going to be amazed how much fun 720/900 degrees is to drive with. I'm going to enjoy eating my beans and tuna for the rest of this month knowing that I made the right choice of purchasing this wheel. It made LFS feel like a whole new game for me again. I love G25. I love LFS.

*Edit*
Vid as promised. Forgive the couple f**k ups I made, I blame those on the 2,5 month pause. :P
http://nismo.1g.fi/temp/g25drifting.avi