ks & mouse vs. wheel

[madmak]

i'm almost 100% sure that cars driving with ks have something like ESP. Check out the best hotlap on BL with XRT car. How is it possible to drive with keybord faster then with wheel?? Maybe i'll replace a wheel in my real car with 4 keys?
I made 1.24.24 on BL (XRT) and on the last turn left I could observe ONLY "KS people" driving faster then me. It's obvious that software is correcting them.
So, my idea is to make driving with KS and mouse harder.

ps. sorry for my english (i couldn't write it in java or c++ :)

[the_angry_angel]

if (user->control == KB_STABLISED)
{
env->punish(user, -10)
env->velocity(user, env->velocity() - 20)
}
else
{
env->punish(user, 10)
env->velocity(user, env->velocity() + 20)
}Theres always a smart arse :saythat:

I must admit, I used to find it a lot easier to race with kb than wheel, but I think its a case of the fact that to drive the kb really well, you have to spend hours upon hours practising. I'm sure if you did the same, you'd probably have the same performance. It may also be a fact that you're using a set that not suited to you. Have you tried others?

Edit: The only thing that the stablisation does, is countersteer, as far as I am aware. The Ks system was also altered recently - things used to be a lot easier for the Ks'ers *ducks*

[madmak]

It looks like this for me:
// Hard ESP System
for (int w=0; w<=3; w++){
if (wheel[w].gripLost() == true){
if (user.control() == KS)
ESP( user, wheel[w] );
else
System.out.println("You have a problem. Good luck.");
}
}

I was looking at people driving with KS and I saw that they are driving in a strange style. It was not realistic without ESP. Remember that they have 0/1 throttle and 200+ HP.

[Bob Smith]

There's certainly no unfair advantage to using keyboard (anymore). Just because a kb users manages to get the WR doesn't mean kb is necessarily fastest.

If there are fast kb users out there, they have earnt it. And if they can get a WR, they've some serisous tapping skillz.

[madmak]

I'm watching "Best Motoring" from time to time. Drivers are racing on the track with many different cars. Interesting is that you can see pedals all the time during the race. You'll not see something like 0/1 throttle style. Why? Because they know how to drive and they want to win. No chance to make a good time without full analog throttle. That's why KS SHOULD NOT make a WR.

[Blackout]

They must have HUUGE muscles on their fingers cos they tap so much :D

[Bob Smith]

Yeah you'll shake there hand and it'll be a spasm where they're squeezing and releasing so fast :p

[madmak]

So keyboard is as good as wheels and pedals. Maybe we should tell that car's designers!! I can see that headers:
2005 > "Ferrari pattented 6 keys driving control"
2006 > "Shumacher won GP just with 6 keys !"

There is no wheel stabilized nor mouse stabilized. Do you want to play using kb? Play, but w/o stabilization!!! There is not allowed to help driving the car In F1 . I don't want to play against driver+algorithm.

[Bob Smith]

The algorithm is very mild. Back when the system was introduced the test patches for 0.3E, the mildest form of help was used in the next patch (F). So believe me they're not getting much help.

As I suggested at the time, I would still prefer if the controller methods were "kb - no help" and "kb - limited", with the stability aid being put with the rest of the driver aids (and recorded in mprs for hotlapping). This was people can use the limited kb steering (which is essential to use kb at all) without the stability aid, if they so wish. Atm it's either all or nothing.

[AndroidXP]

Yea, it was horrible back then. You could almost play LFS like its Need... counterpart.

[Boris Lozac]

It really pi**es me off when i see those hotlap charts, almost all of them are driving on the keyborad and mouse!!! I mean this is a SIM!, you shouldn't be able to make good times with mouse and keyboard!! I mean, i drive like a maniac, sweating, trying to modulate the gass, steering movements, and they just go, one hended, with other hand drinking soda, and make world records!! I mean, WTF??

[Bob Smith]

Don't exaggerate, it's not that easy. And anyway you need your other hand to change gear/wipe the sweat off your brow.

[Woz]

It really pi**es me off when i see those hotlap charts, almost all of them are driving on the keyborad and mouse!!! I mean this is a SIM!, you shouldn't be able to make good times with mouse and keyboard!! I mean, i drive like a maniac, sweating, trying to modulate the gass, steering movements, and they just go, one hended, with other hand drinking soda, and make world records!! I mean, WTF??

Try and beat your best GTT wheel time with keyboard.

You might realise how little help there is with KB compared to the old system that died with S1.

The mouse and KB control is fine how it is now. There was a huge thrash through from most of the community and a number of revisions to the system before it reach the current state.

Driving with KB takes skill and lots of it now. If they are faster its because they are better.

[mrodgers]

Probably if you gave those WR keyboard/mouse players a wheel, they would smoke you then too. Some people just have the knack for it. It frustrates me that I get on the server to practice/qualify for the next league race all week. I run 200+ laps. Then a certain someone jumps on the final hour of qualifying and beats the WR after 6 laps. He texted (real word?) "/w laps" on the server and he had I think 16 laps logged on that track. I sweated for 200+ laps to get withing 10 seconds of the WR. And I was getting pretty satisfied with my times toward the end.

[Boris Lozac]

Ok, they are good, but that shouldn't be the case.. I don't think that they would be good at the wheel, because it's totally different technique, and it takes skills of driving, not just learning the track and clicking! I am not saying that it should be more difficult for them, but it just pi*ess me off! , that's all..
If they really like the game, and racing/driving.. then they should buy a wheel.. ;)

[L(Oo)ney]

Ok, they are good, but that shouldn't be the case.. I don't think that they would be good at the wheel, because it's totally different technique, and it takes skills of driving, not just learning the track and clicking! I am not saying that it should be more difficult for them, but it just pi*ess me off! , that's all..

Its not just a case of clicking, they have to modulate the throttle/steering just like you. Only they dont have the advantage of an analogue device.

My guess, is that you're just a crap driver compared to the people that are beating you.

You have to remember, some of the kb/mouse people, have played LFS for years, they know this game inside out.

And people should play the game with whatever they can afford/feel most comftable with, if thats a kb and mouse, then fine.

[edit] Going from KB to wheel is no problem, wheel is a hell of a lot easier to use then KB is, where RWD cars are concerned.

[Boris Lozac]

Sorry, i was really nervous at work, stayed waaayy too long then i should have!, so i wrote some stuff, that i didn't mean.. I know that many can't afford the wheel..
BTW, i am not a crap driver, i run 1.33.330 on Blacwood with GTI.. with not so many practice.. ;)

[xaotik]

So, my idea is to make driving with KS and mouse harder.

Somehow I have the feeling that with for certain people it'll be all the same.
You can filter out the hotlap records based on controller in lfsworld though, so if looking at KB times vexes anyone they don't really have to see them... ;)

[madmak]

The algorithm is very mild. Back when the system was introduced the test patches for 0.3E, the mildest form of help was used in the next patch (F). So believe me they're not getting much help.
Sometimes not much is enough. You can see that developers are deciding how fast KS drivers are. More help in KS system and KS drivers are on top. Less help and W drivers are on top.
I'm sure that skilled drivers racing with KS will not change the controller even for free. I'll not believe in fast racing with keybord w/o help. They are good, because they know how to use that help. Watch hotlap replay of the best KS and the best W drivers. You'll see that KS algorithm makes a lot of small corrections during milliseconds (left-right). Especially when driving on the edge (100,1% of what car can make).
Some of you are driving with KS and u'll never admit that it's sometimes easer for you.

Remember LFS is a SIM. It simulates reality, and in car, reality means wheel and pedals. There's no KS in my car. So simulation of what is KS?

Yeah, I know. KS is a simulation of a wheel (and more)...

[RBSteve]

<...>
And people should play the game with whatever they can afford/feel most comftable with, if thats a kb and mouse, then fine.
<...>


I dont really care about this issue, but the "can afford" argument is kind of weak. Someone playing LFS obviously have a computer setup that cost them at least 400 euro (and probably more than 1000 euro). Add to that the 24 euro for the game and the cost for a broadband internet connection. If your economy allows for this, in order to play a game, then you can damn sure save up to 150 euro for a decent wheel in a rather short time.
So those driving with the keyboard do so out of choice not necessity.

And regarding the arguments against driving-aids with the keyboard... I am sure that those who get good laptimes are good at LFS whatever they use. But players are competing online against each other and as long as there are "different rules for different people" there will be lots of arguing about it. For that reason alone it would make sense to either a) have no driving aids for anything or b) restricting races to either or both controller types.

Steve

[LRB_Aly]

Well i don't know how it is in other countries, but here the costs of broadband internet (DSL) are much less expensive then it would be if ure using ISDN or 56.6 internet connections, because it's flatrate, so i think that this would save money and not be more expensive. For the rest: I think it could be possible for most racers to bye a wheel, they're not so expensive anymore as they used to be, for 25 euro's you already get a cheap one without FF (Actually i already saw FF wheels for approximative 50 euros).

[Bob Smith]

You can't force people to buy a wheel. Some people are THAT much into sim racing to justify the expense. LFS needs to cater for people with a life as well. :)

Also wheels take up space - I had to wait 10 months until I moved house so I had room for a bigger desk to put the wheel on. With the miniscule PC desks that some people use it's no wonder some people are forced to use kb or mouse.

There are driving aids available to everyone: auto clutch, brake help, throttle help (though that's not very useful). The steering help is only available to kb users, since that's the only controller method that is digital and needs such an aid. Mouse, joystick, wheel; all are analogue and can easily be positioned anywhere, at any speed, with any precision. This is the advantage they have over kb input.

[garph]

When you start seeing people with KB getting loads of WR's and you start getting beat when racing with KB then you can moan that KB people have an advantage.

That's not going to happen btw. I used KB for demo and for about a month of S2 and I hated it! I couldn't really drive the more powerful RWD cars (except the FO8 on the oval) and even the XFR was no fun cause I'd burn the tyres within a lap on the longer circuits.

Why do you care so much that someone has got a WR with a KB with a car that no one really use's, except demo people and thats cause they don't have a choice?

If you think using the KB will give you an advantage then try it and you'll fine out how wrong you are!

[Swif7]

All gamers have a keyboard, only a few (statistically seen) have a wheel. Therefore, if both control systems are equal, there should be more kb's than wheeldrivers in the rankings.

Anyways, I use a mouse because it's more towards realism than a keyboard.. until I have a wheel :)

[mrodgers]

There are driving aids available to everyone: auto clutch, brake help, throttle help (though that's not very useful). The steering help is only available to kb users, since that's the only controller method that is digital and needs such an aid. Mouse, joystick, wheel; all are analogue and can easily be positioned anywhere, at any speed, with any precision. This is the advantage they have over kb input.
Yep, if you want to complain about KB users having an unfair advantage because of help and they should buy a wheel if they want to race LFS, then you should be forced to use a clutch pedal or have to use auto transmission. If you drive any of the road cars, then you'd better have an h-pattern shifter. Road cars don't have sequential shifters or auto clutches. You'd better upgrade your PC if you can't drive in cockpit view and use wheels view because of frames. The wheel view you could say gives an unfair advantage. (I use it for frame rate, I hate it and am slower, no advantage). I've been beaten by KB users as well as wheel users. I can't come close to WR times. So what advantage does the other wheel users have that I don't? Since I can't achieve the times they do. They don't have an advantage. They just happen to be that good.

[qstomeq]

hi , im mouse player and my opinion is :

its all about the SMOOTHNESS of your moves ! on mouse and whell you are turning yourself , and your fell of the car is more important than on keyboard , where you "just" must to tweak everything and press the button in correct time , its a hard work too so .. please have a respect to keyboarders

the game engine is the same for all of us

[madmak]

You don't get it. Different patches affects KS control. The result of that is time maded by drivers that use KS. If actual patch is good for them they can make WR. If not, they'll not make WR. Last patch is good for them. Great driver will be always great, but time made by him is immeasurable.
Maybe I'm wrong, because so many of you have diffrent opinion.

p.s. i'll say one more time: "sorry for my english"

[-V17-]

I'm sure that skilled drivers racing with KS will not change the controller even for free. I'll not believe in fast racing with keybord w/o help. They are good, because they know how to use that help.

Just for you I drove a couple of laps with XRT@Bl and keyboard no help. The best lap I got was 1.24.88 (I can post .spr if you don't believe me), which is too fast for quite a few guys. At the moment, out of 179 people with a wheel in the charts (I know, not all of them actually have a wheel), only 26 are better than that. If I had more time, I might be able to attack your 1.24.24 pretty soon. KS certainly helps compared to KN, but it ain't exactly like driving on rails. It's not like KS users use wheel for fun, and for hotlapping and serious racing they go: OK, enough of this crap, bring in the mighty keyboard. Besides, try it, if you still think it's so much easier. You know: if you can't beat them, join them.

No-aids-at-all policy isn't being broken just by M/KS users. Most wheel users use things like centre steer reduction etc. And M/KS don't have 0/1 throttle and brake. They're smoothed.

The best guy with mouse is only 0.03s slower than WR. And the only reason I beat him is because he hasn't been playing lately, so I caught up. He was always better than me by a few tenths. Mouse users don't have any stabilization (AFAIK), so he should be clearly disadvantaged to you with a wheel. I'd say a wheel still has a noticeable advantage over M/KS (for XRT@BL), and M is very slightly better than KS. And that's fine with me; wheel is better, but M/KS users can be very competitive too. I base this belief on an unofficial rank for S2 pre-alpha demo. The best mouser was about 20th position, and the best keyboarder was about 30th position, both more than 0.5s off the WR. Back then all the really good guys with wheels played XRT a lot because there were only 3 cars and one track. And the advantage of wheel over M/KS could be clearly seen. And it doesn't feel like I have more help now than before. I guess it works out well for me that the best guys with wheels are probably more interested in new cars and other tracks. And you should be happy that you have only me to beat, because if some of those guys spent a few days driving this track/car combo, they would most likely smoke me, and you wouldn't have KS to blame anymore.

[madmak]

When i started this topic I was thinking about something different. I know that this game is for everybody and "everyone is equal". Maybe a good driver can make the same time with KS and W. The point is that in real life NOBODY could drive with 4/6 buttons as fast as with W. Next thing that i was thinking about was: "how is it possible that nobody can drive faster then -V17- with wheel (without limitation of KS)?" Wheel has FF and full analog stearing (left/right + throttle/break), only advantages against KS"
Now I know the answer. There is no better driver using wheel then -V17- using KS. That's it!

-V17-, you are a great driver. I was racing with you few times and I don't want to say that your times are good only because of mysteriuos help system in KS.
Tell me anyway. Do you think that driving with KS is realistic as much as driving with wheel?

p.s. now you should attack my 1.23.99 :P

[Nick_ll]

Ok I'll get my input on that topîc:
- kb: It's soooo impossible to drive I don't even want to know how anyone can be fast with that shit. Surely those who are got absolutely no life at all.....

- now mouse: Don't get me started on that one. IF you CANNOT beat a mouse driver, he would be good with wheel too. IF YOU CAN'T be any faster at all than him, PRACTICE DAMMIT. IT IS YOUR FAULT. My brother (Boosterfire) drives with mouse because he's not got the money to buy himself a damn wheel. He's nearly as fast as me, but in theory, with a wheel (or an equal controller in other games) he tends to be slightly FASTER than me. He's got a much more smooth driving style.
Now I assume that's probably what makes all other fast mouse drivers fast. Maybe I'm wrong, but surely practice makes everyone better, even driving with an unrealistic controller as mouse.

[-V17-]

Tell me anyway. Do you think that driving with KS is realistic as much as driving with wheel?
I don't have a wheel (can't fit one to my current desk :(), so people who were good with KS and made a move to W are more qualified to answer this.

p.s. now you should attack my 1.23.99 :P
Hm, I would need a LOT more time with KN to do that. 23.x still isn't piece of cake for me even with KS.

- kb: It's soooo impossible to drive I don't even want to know how anyone can be fast with that shit. Surely those who are got absolutely no life at all.....
I don't feel disadvantaged to mouse users much, really. After all, I do have a mouse and an option to use it, but I'm not very good with it.
And you may think I'm full of s*it, but I don't drive all day long. I probably drive much less than a lot of S2 licensed drivers. It's just that 95% of the time I drive the same car on the same track. Look at RudiTurbo e.g., he drove 23.8x although he probably rarely plays that car. And it took me like 2 months to be that good.

[Woz]

Can we get this thread closed.

This really was done to death in RSC back in the days of S1. It resulted in a HUGE fight over many different threads and pages. There were 4 different systems put forward and the community decided on what was the best solution and then further tweaks were done to make it drivable. And after that there were many thread and pages of posts asking for the old KB system back because people said it was impossible to drive.

Current state of play is that there are fast KB drivers. But there are also fast wheel and mouse drivers. KB is NOT faster than wheel, if they are at the top of the hot lap charts it might be for the simple reason KB players are spending more time hotlapping than people with other controllers.

This might be due to the reason that controlling a car in a race situation is easier and more natural with wheel than KB.

KB pre S1E was like NFSU, now it isn't and works just fine. Do we really need to go through the fights and flame wars again?

[Gunn]

Can we get this thread closed.Although this topic has indeed been done to death, there are still many newcomers to our community who will pose the question, so locking the topic would seem odd to some of them and won't help them understand what has gone before. As long as people explain the past changes and relevant discussion calmly and sensibly then I see no big problem with the topic staying active.

I'll just make a few statements so we all know where we are at with this:

Not everyone can afford a wheel so please accept that not everyone can just up and get one.

Depending on your mouse brand, drivers and settings, controlling LFS with your mouse can be a pleasure or a pain. A little experimentaion is all that is required to find the right settings for you. You can do it! :)

If anyone thinks that Keyboard contol is too easy ... please try it for yourself. ;)

A person able to get WR times with Keys deserves some respect and most certainly can not be accused of something like "the computer does all the driving for you". Without a firm understanding of car behaviour and track knowledge you'll never approach WR times with keys. Despite the method of control, these guys know how to drive that car. One thing I know, they don't deserve any ill-feeling or ridicule.

For those who want keys to be easier, that is unlikely to occur. The KB method was changed in a previous build (with MUCH discussion before and after the fact) to make keys deliberately harder and this is a permanent and deliberate change.

In LFS racers can use Wheel, joystick, mouse keyboard and gamepad controllers and even multiple controllers are supported (more than one controller used at one time). Despite the "purity" of the idea of a true sim we still have the chance to enjoy this game using many methods of control and this situation is convenient for many people. If this means more people will try this game then I'm all for it.

Please don't get mad when a "purist" suggests that you would be much better off (and enjoy the sim more) using an analogue wheel with force feedback .... they are absolutely correct and are not neccessarily being arrogant towards you.

Live For Speed is being developed as a true simulator with great attention to physics detail and the actual mechanical processes of things like suspension, steering and tyre activity. The best and most realistic way to enjoy LFS will always be the method that best controls and responds to these actions - an anaologue wheel with FFB is the top candidate.