LFS and AGEIA ?

[nesrulz]

http://www.ageia.com/

[tpa]

looks nice, but I dont think there will ever be any kind of cooperation between ageia and lfs... lfs is all homemade ;)

[MyBoss]

I have a painfull headache so I'm not going to bother to read all thats on the weabpage, what exactly is AGEIA?

[Tweaker]

It looks like some sort of physics platform. I think what nesrulz is trying to say... is that AGEIA could be implemented for the crash physics or something. :shrug:

[Mbrio]

Although it probably is a good system, it's only useful to use something like that if you do it from the start. It might be possible to use the rigid body dynamics and the collision detection, but it would probably take ages to implement that now.

[Hummer]

not to mention that how much would it cost to the developers. since I don't think it's free :)

[dUmAsS]

we went over this many times before in the old forum :(

to use the physics chip the programmers need to use the novadex SDK. thats no good for lfs.

and anyway, a duel core system will most likely be more suitable for it (apart from the 128mb onboard ram on the physics card).

the only way this can/will become mainstream is if the card is opened up for developers to plug homebrew physics in. i doubt many developers will want to chuck out years of code. changing physics sdk is a bitch, not only do you have to change a *lot* of code but you also have to learn the new sdk and learn all the tweaks to make it stable (if it fakes the physics, and novadex does)

[nesrulz]

to use the physics chip the programmers need to use the novadex SDK. thats no good for lfs.

:(

[nesrulz]

It looks like some sort of physics platform. I think what nesrulz is trying to say... is that AGEIA could be implemented for the crash physics or something. :shrug:

Yes, AGEIA is Physics Processing Unit (PPU).

[SlamDunk]

Here's a AutoSimSport (http://www.autosimsport.com) article about using PPUs in simulators: http://www.autosimsport.com/issues/autosimsport_1_4.zip (pages 45-53, PDF)

Victor gives some comments about PPU etc.. Good read.

- - - - - -

Here's my little dedicated physX PPU info page: http://personal.inet.fi/atk/kjh2348fs/ageia_physx.html

There's all kinds of links and info I know of AGEIA's upcoming card.

[Bob Smith]

Here's a AutoSimSport (http://www.autosimsport.com) article about using PPUs in simulators: http://www.autosimsport.com/issues/autosimsport_1_4.zip (pages 45-53, PDF)

Victor gives some comments about PPU etc.. Good read.
Cheers I'll give it a read.

nesrulz: your avatar is annoying :) (at least mine is just ugly :p)

[K4Ri]

we went over this many times before in the old forum :(

to use the physics chip the programmers need to use the novadex SDK. thats no good for lfs.



Why?

Key features:



Stable, high-performance solver
First and only multiprocessing physics API
PC and console support
Works alongside and is compatible with other game engines
Supports vehicles, rag dolls, and character controllers
Integrates with any renderer
Full complement of code samples and tutorials
World-class developer support and custom solutions

[KiDCoDEa]

here's why:

anything that takes full advantage of ageia makes it impossible to run on normal pcs. therefore shrinking madly the target machines lfs can run on.
if you gonna use ageia just as extension eyecandy, it makes itself useless because its not vital for the game.

sad but true.

[the_angry_angel]

Why?

Key features:



Stable, high-performance solver
First and only multiprocessing physics API
PC and console support
Works alongside and is compatible with other game engines
Supports vehicles, rag dolls, and character controllers
Integrates with any renderer
Full complement of code samples and tutorials
World-class developer support and custom solutions

As a speculation, Novadex is only general. i.e. vehicle physics are basic vehicle physics, rather than each indepedent part of the vehicle, and how it affects it as a whole. Whilst it maybe good at some things - like being using in a FPS (such as UT2003/4), its technically not designed for racing sim's, and a fair chunk of stuff would need to be written from scratch, to talk and add on bits that were missing, anyway - so why use Novadex? A lot of the physics is already written, stripping it out and replacing it with Novadex and rewritten code for Novadex compatibility would be nuts - its a huge task. 1 person can only do so much, and theres not much real benefit to do so.

Dont get me wrong, I like Novadex, its good, but it has its place. You wouldnt write a kernel in QBasic, because its the wrong tool for the job. The same applies here.

[Kegetys]

Also the Novodex SDK is said to be quite expensive; the commercial license price for a single title on one platform is 50 000 dollars. Or, thats what it used to be some time ago, it could have changed up or down but whatever it is now I doubt it would be worth it for LFS. Especially considering the time it would take to pretty much re-write most of the physics code already there, and the amount it would "alienate" the whole game (It would not work well or at all without the PPU card).

[SlamDunk]

You can dowload the full SDK for free: http://www.ageia.com/novodex_downloads.html

NovodeX is called "AGEIA physX SDK" these days, by the way...

[Kegetys]

You can dowload the full SDK for free: http://www.ageia.com/novodex_downloads.html

And a snip of the license from that package:


1. Use of the Software.
a. You may:
(i) use and display the Software, including the Third Party Materials, for internal demonstration purposes only;
(ii) use, display and reproduce the SDK and Rocket, excluding the Third Party Materials, internally solely to develop Your non-commercial physics simulation applications, including without limitation game demo, educational and training applications; and
(iii) distribute the Software, excluding the Third Party Materials, solely as part of a non-commercial project for non-commercial academic and research purposes only.

...

c. No Commercial Distribution Right. This license grants no rights to distribute the Software for any commercial purposes. Any and all individuals, companies, non-academic government agencies or other organizations wishing to redistribute the Software for any purpose other than that specifically set forth in Section 1(a)(iii) above must enter into written contract with NovodeX. Please contact info@novodex.com for further information.

Free to download does not mean free to use.

[the_angry_angel]

Free to download does not mean free to use.Non-obscure licenses for teh win!!!1111oneone
The ODF utilities can be used with any physics engine, but we hope that you will find it a nice complement to the features of the AGEIA physX APIIt always makes me laugh, proprietory systems trying to work with OpenSouce, in order to get more business =/

[dUmAsS]

Works alongside and is compatible with other game engines

and if thats true then it might be good. if i can ship off my code to the physics chip instead of the cpu then fine. but if i need to go through novadex then no thanks.

[SlamDunk]

Free to download does not mean free to use.
I just used it, for free! :D

Yeah, but I got your point. GG :tilt:

[dUmAsS]

http://saschawillems.blogspot.com/2005/09/ageia-putting-end-to-realistic-in-game.html

read that for a good explanation

[nesrulz]

nesrulz: your avatar is annoying :) (at least mine is just ugly :p)

Better now? :)

[Krane]

I very much doubt that Ageia thingy to success, but this thing already has an install base even though it's still in the drawing board.....

nVidia SLI Physics http://www.rojakpot.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=303&pgno=0

[Funnybear]

Just looks like eye candy to me . . . Doesn't look quite right. I mean it's designed with consoles in mind ffs. It's certainly not right enough to be implemeted into LFS.

And anyway. Scawen already has a kick arse Physics engine. And it's one that will get even better.

[Krane]

And anyway. Scawen already has a kick arse Physics engine. And it's one that will get even better.Well yes, but it has flaws or rather limits it can handle.. I guess you haven't seen the "too many physics objects" error message?

[Funnybear]

Yea. I've seen it. But that will change. He'll streamline the code, lower the CPU usage and other stuff. It'll come together right . .

[Krane]

Do you think some bundled generic engine designed primarily with FPS games in mind will be better?If you could only use it for collision etc physics while keeping the driving physics intact, or offloading the current physics processing to it, yes.

But still I think all this discussion is pointless, I don't think any of this is plug'n'play sort of thing, it could take years to implement.

[Shotglass]

Yea. I've seen it. But that will change. He'll streamline the code, lower the CPU usage and other stuff. It'll come together right . .

I streamlined my business processes while honing my participatory style and my proactive attitude, all while valuing diversity!

[B2B@300]

Besides by the time S3 is out we will all have multiprocessor systems :shrug: and there is no reason at all why LFS at that time couldn't take advanatge of that :)

i.e.
processor 1 - main game engine
processor 2 - collision detection
processor 3 - main physics engine for your car
processor 4 - physics engine for oponents cars
...
processor 255 - ... :D

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Well yes, but it has flaws or rather limits it can handle.. I guess you haven't seen the "too many physics objects" error message?

Huh?!

[ButterTyres]

I think the PPU might have a limited life, given the other problems people have mentioned (needing it to get the full potential of a game). However read something yesterday that sounded much more realistic - move the Physics processing to the GPU(s).

http://www.neowin.net/index.php?act=view&id=32535

[SladiVadi]

I think the PPU might have a limited life, given the other problems people have mentioned (needing it to get the full potential of a game). However read something yesterday that sounded much more realistic - move the Physics processing to the GPU(s).

http://www.neowin.net/index.php?act=view&id=32535
You need SM3 so the GPU can alter the geometry via pixel shaders.

Though the power of the GPUs still has to increase significantly in order to produce realistic calculations.
The consumer has to pay the price, be it for a PPU or an uber GPU.
Effects physics are easier to do but won't affect gamplay since they're "only" there for calculating flames, smoke, water ect. . :)

[Shotglass]

Effects physics are easier to do but won't affect gamplay since they're "only" there for calculating flames, smoke, water ect. . :)

yes and no ... a lot of descent3 players did and do set the flame effects settings to its loweste value cause it will show you the flaming balls that actually cause damage instead of a wall of fire ... so effects settings can affect gameplay

[askoff]

You need SM3 so the GPU can alter the geometry via pixel shaders.
You must be talkin about Vertex shaders...

[AndroidXP]

Maybe he's talking about parallax mapping?

[SladiVadi]

You must be talkin about Vertex shaders...

It seems that the pixel shaders are more powerful. Those shaders are going to be unified anyway though.

[MadCatX]

Vertex shaders cannot be used to physics calculations - or they cannot be used effectively. You must use the pixel shader(PS) units, that can execute almost any code, if it is written correctly for PS units. I saw test where the old GF4 Ti4200 was 24 times faster than p4 1.6GHz - but there is a BIG problem. PS effects can be used effectively only when the physics elements can be "converted" to pixels - good example is model of house heating, pixels can represent bricks, mass of air on so on. Im not sure that collision effects or tyre physics can be transtaled on pixel processing.
BTW, PS 3.0 arent needed for the physics modelling, PS 3.0 are just good for it because there is no code lenght limit.

(it is a long time I have read about this, so I might be quite unexact - correct me someone if you will find any mistakes plz:))

[colcob]

It seems to me that if physics processing has any chance of becoming mainstream then it has to get incorporated into gaming graphics cards, and a standard API for it incorporated into DirectX 11 or whatever.
Nobody in there right mind is going to buy another addon card for a miniscule number of games from developers crazy enough to support a miniscule number of users.
If its a gaming related function, which it is, then it should be incorporating into our gaming addon cards, and then a generation or two down the line, developers can assume it will be present in the same way they can just assume that pixel and vertex shaders are present now.

[Vain]

Physics addon cars will only become common when physics are more advanced than modern CPUs can bear. That was the same with GFX cards.

Vain

[cannonfodder]

With the increased use of ragdolls and environment physics to increase immersion in Half Life 2 and other FPSes, I'd say we're not too far off from loading the CPU to the point where a dedicated physics accellerator justifies its cost. It won't do to offload physics on the GPU or an extra core on the CPU since they're not optimized for the specialized repetitive physics computations that would be required.