ghost Car Racing

[tek2000]

How about the possibility to race ghost cars ? I mean the best lap telemetry date could be saved in memory and triggered by going through the start line. The Car would appear as slightly see-through (or simply normal and not-collidable) Then I think racing on your own and training would become much more addictive then it already is.

Cheers
Stefan

[Seahorse]

Top Idea - I used to love this on an old PC Rally game whose name I forget...:tilt:

[XCNuse]

well last time this came up; we had landed up finding out we would have licensing problems with atari... :worried:

[bobvanvliet]

Seriously?

Dude. :really:

[MyBoss]

well last time this came up; we had landed up finding out we would have licensing problems with atari... :worried:


omg, thats so insanely lame. Anyone know how much this would cost? Maybe the community could sponsor the devs? hehe

[tek2000]

Hmmm thats terrible, after all this is a pretty trivial feature, does that mean every game that has such a ghost racing feature (ive seen a snowboard game do this and also some racing games) pays for adding this to the game?
Is this a patent ?

maybe one could combine it somehow with the replay feature so that it would be possible to steer a car in a replay ? I dont know if that would work in the architecture, but maybe that would be a possibility to have something similar without licencing problems ? (since it would be quite different)


Cheers
Stefan

[XCNuse]

"Ghost Car" patents of Atari, Nos. US 5,269,687 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5269687.WKU.&OS=PN/5269687&RS=PN/5269687), 5,354,202 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5354202.WKU.&OS=PN/5354202&RS=PN/5354202) and 5,577,913 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5577913.WKU.&OS=PN/5577913&RS=PN/5577913) all claim " a driver training system".


or here: http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=161596

[R3DMAN]

if we could get a ghost car in LFS it would be excellent..

i know its abit arcady but if you think about it. you can see where you are making mistakes on the track etc

i think its a good idea :)

[XCNuse]

oh it is; its a great idea...we just need a way to get around the licenses legally lol

[Seahorse]

Surely if they wrote their own code and called it Phantom Car that would be OK? If not it's a stupid patent...:smileypul

[ColeusRattus]

Surely if they wrote their own code and called it Phantom Car that would be OK? If not it's a stupid patent...:smileypul

You could also call it "Real Time Replay Overlay", then it would be innovative instead of plagiism ;)

Would be cool though, especially, if you cold drive with any replay you recorded or downloded.

[tek2000]

The problem is, since the ghost car racing is a patent it doesnt suffice to call it phantom car and leave it like that.
But the last post is making sense, i guess, i think it would be great if you could take over the car from a replay player and compete with the other cars replaying.
Taking over a car would also make it possible to train on hard parts in races, for example try and see if you can avoid a crash or overtake in special situations.

Maybe one of the developers could say something about the possibility of taking over a replay car within the lfs architecture

Stefan

[the_angry_angel]

Surely if they wrote their own code and called it Phantom Car that would be OK? If not it's a stupid patent...:smileypul
Unfortunately not. Patent's dont cover the implementation, or the name, but the idea. Which is why software patent's are bad for business.

Now I'm not upto speed on modern patent law, but the way I understand it is, that if LFS didnt get sold in a Country where it would violate these patent's, then it would be fine. Unfortunately in doing so, you cut out a large portion of your market. Namely the American states, etc.

Maybe one of the developers could say something about the possibility of taking over a replay car within the lfs architectureWhilst watching a replay, you can press escape and do a "test drive". Is this what you mean by taking over? Or would you prefer to do it mid-replay and continuing as if you were driving - effectively stopping the replay and starting your own continuing "session"?

[Sk0rp]

Perpaps something like splitscreen mode (upper-the replay/ under-you drive)
I that a possibility??

[dawesdust_12]

AFAI Understand, all sims are breaking those patents, because one of them states the competition of simulated cars, even in an arcade game, Hmm...

[Gunn]

Perpaps something like splitscreen mode (upper-the replay/ under-you drive)
I that a possibility??No thanks. Split screen mode has never been effective in any game ever made. Either the graphics get squashed and skewed or you have little room to view what's happening up ahead.

I don't see the ghost car idea as adding any value to LFS either. You can already watch a replay to see your mistakes, you can also see the suspension and tyre loads by pressing F. The only real value I have ever gained from a ghost was that it can make you work harder if you have a target to chase, which may lead to a better lap time. I think the ghost car has it's appeal but that appeal does little to enhance a race sim that already addresses some of the aspects mentioned here.

[tek2000]

to gunn :
I think racing against your ghost is great since races will always be enjoyable, since you are probable about the same speed than yourself ;) and so you see how you improve over time by winning replays against yourself.

to the_angry_angel
>Whilst watching a replay, you can press escape and do a "test drive". Is this >what you mean by taking over? Or would you prefer to do it mid-replay and >continuing as if you were driving - effectively stopping the replay and starting >your own continuing "session"?

I mean the replay should continue as normal but the car that is currently at focus should start to get simulated which probably makes it impossible to crash into other cars, as it is a movie around you
the way i would do it program-wise would be , if a special key is pressed the actual speed and 3d position of the car currently at focus gets saved and instantiates a simulated car that starts out at exactly those position of the focused car in the replay, and you could continue to race against the field-


Stefan

[tristancliffe]

I like it as it is, and like real life is. You drive, but want to beat the WR. So you use a replay analyser (or get hold of their telemetry in real life, using big sticks and swear words). This tells you what you need to do.

Having a ghost car would be just a bit too arcadey for me (see signature disclaimer), as beating times would be easier when following the ghost car.

I know you have to have SOME stuff make unrealistic, to make it fun/playable, but this is a step too far.

[bLaCk VaMpIrE]

i would it enjoy it so much in hotlapping :`(((((
would really help to find misstakes...

[XCNuse]

sorry but im gonna have to go against you in this one tristan; think of it as a learning tool, you can see the mistakes you made/how you can improve a turn, brake, accel points or whatever

its not really an "arcady" thing, its a learning tool designed to show where you made mistakes

and as you said about replay analyser.. that doesnt show you mistakes or improvements.. it only shows you what and how fast you did something.. plus its a top down view which.. can be deceptive very easily

[--==Gogo==--]

I just posted in the "My Little Suggestions"-Thread that the fastet lap in hotlapping should be saved automatically.

If this would be implemented, a ghost-mod for hotlapping could not be that difficult to make...

Would that violate some patents?

[Gunn]

sorry but im gonna have to go against you in this one tristan; think of it as a learning tool, you can see the mistakes you made/how you can improve a turn, brake, accel points or whatever

its not really an "arcady" thing, its a learning tool designed to show where you made mistakes

and as you said about replay analyser.. that doesnt show you mistakes or improvements.. it only shows you what and how fast you did something.. plus its a top down view which.. can be deceptive very easilyA simple replay will show you more than a ghost car would. Real drivers would have to watch a video of their run and check telemetry data, LFS is pretty much the same.

[XCNuse]

but this is where technology comes in (well.. that and human laziness lol) i mean.. honestly i've never touched the replay analyser cause i have no idea how it works.. and im sure alot of people dont want to mess with an addition just to see a helicopter view of what they did.. for some people (like me)... that doesnt help much at all; plus unlike a ghost car, its not real time, so you cant see what you did differently.. this very second

[tek2000]

Plus you get the chance to overtake yourself at the weak spot. I think all those arguments that its not enough realism are not applicable here, its a lot of fun and its a definitively easy to use way of seeing where you were fast and where you could improve.
After all LFS has more of those points where its not realistic, I think its enough that the physics model is as realistic as possible, the rest of the game should make the experience of playing as easy as possible and as attractive as possible
Stefan

[madmak]

if ghost car is pattented, you could make just ghost wheels with forces or line that is drawing on the track. Line would be cool. Colours could indicated acc. or braking. This would look like in Replay Analizer, but in real time.

[tristancliffe]

Plus you get the chance to overtake yourself at the weak spot. I think all those arguments that its not enough realism are not applicable here, its a lot of fun and its a definitively easy to use way of seeing where you were fast and where you could improve.
After all LFS has more of those points where its not realistic, I think its enough that the physics model is as realistic as possible, the rest of the game should make the experience of playing as easy as possible and as attractive as possible
Stefan

I don't want the experience to be 'as easy as possible'. If it was I'd stop playing. I play LFS for the challenge. The challenge of driving fast. The challenge of passing. The challenge of pit strategy. The challange of improve myself.

Personally (and I know most people don't agree with me) I think a ghost car will make beating times easier. You've got something to chase and copy.

As I said earlier I KNOW LFS has to have certain unrealistic bits to make it playable on a small screen with no g-forces. but this is GOING TO FAR.

I'm very very very pleased that it is a patented idea, and hope I never see it in LFS.

its a definitively easy to use way of seeing where you were fast and where you could improve. But ultimately less satisfying. And I bet you'd be unable to go the same speed without something to follow. So in that respect it's tantermount (sp?) to cheating.

[Seahorse]

I want a ghost blob then with telemetry read outs. I don't want to waste my entire life swotting like tristancliffe...:(

Besides, at my age, time is precious...:nod:

[tristancliffe]

Swotting! LOL. Nah, I just get faster in the same way real drivers do - by thinking, not chasing a translucent car I can't crash into that is utterly trustworth (i.e. won't make a mistake, unless the replay contained one). Where is there ANY skill or satisfaction in that?

[XCNuse]

hold on tristan.. no one said you HAD to use it...

and nothing is going to far.. lfs is meant to teach about cars.. and a ghost car would teach you how to improve yourself..

lfs is a learning experience (for me atleast)

plus.. how is it unreal? i've seen PLENTY of times where people stick cameras in their car, run the track, get the time they ran.. study it.. and do it over and over until they find no differences ... are you saying that cameras are unreal and unused? i think not; its a technology that few people take into consideration

[Huru-aito]

plus.. how is it unreal? i've seen PLENTY of times where people stick cameras in their car, run the track, get the time they ran..

The cameras aren't unreal. Having ghost cars is. Having a camera in your car doesn't result in a seethrough car hovering over the track when you're driving.

Anyways, we already have analyzing tools that someone would have IRL = replays & raf telemetry output. I can understand adding something unrealistic when a realistic mean of achieving something just isn't possible. If there'd be no telemetry, no replays... then I guess a ghost car could be in order. If it'd be like that then the whole LFS community could be completely different ;)

[XCNuse]

.... ooooone day .. there will be holographic cars going around a track .....
:hyper:

[Seahorse]

Who is going to waste massive amounts of time checking telemetry when you can chase yourself and learn from your own good line/break poits/mistakes etc. It's a quick any easy way to improve. I for one do not have time to faff about checks revs in bends blah, drone, etc...:really:

[XCNuse]

i prove my point...

why make something hard when it could be so easy
just because its unreal doesnt mean you cant use it.. for petes sake; colin mcrae (and i believe RBR) is said to be real.. and it has ghost cars

[tristancliffe]

i prove my point...

why make something hard when it could be so easy
just because its unreal doesnt mean you cant use it.. for petes sake; colin mcrae (and i believe RBR) is said to be real.. and it has ghost cars

Obviously I'm going to lose here (again). With any luck, Scawen (a known purist) will agree with me (*hands brown envelope to Scawen) and ignore you lot :P

I still stand by my comments though

[XCNuse]

purism.. hah.. ahh i hate english class.. lol

anyways, like seahorse said; the point of .. almost anything (ei: experiments etc) are to make things EASIER for the user, and a ghost car.. would make things much easier

think of it this way tristan.. if it doesnt make it into the game... it will probably keep being requested lol cause.. so far thats proven to be true :p

[Gunn]

I'm only used to seeing cars in my mirrors so this would just be a distraction. :spin:

Tee hee.

In the spirit of individuality I think it's fine for people to want these types of things but secretly I hope this spectre of an idea doesn't stand a ghost of a chance of ever seeing the light of day. I have come to the grave realisation that this is a haunting prospect indeed and one that may make me a mere shade of my former self.

[Europa]

I agree with TC.

Yes having a ghost car would make it easier & quicker to get faster. But LFS is a simulation. The whole point of it is learning to drive it better, faster. Thats learning, not being led.
As for the example of video footage in real life - we have exactly the same in LFS in the hotlap replays. You can even testdrive the hotlap car. Do you also want to be shown exactly where to drive it?
It would be a step too far.

As for the patent, that's quite scary - they have that well buttoned up. Makes you wonder what else is 'protected'.

[tristancliffe]

People want stuff to be easier. Which is why something like 70% of Americans are clinically and dangerously obese.

Don't play LFS if you want it easy. Play GT4 :P

[XCNuse]

oh.. i do tristan.. i do (lol actually i have.. want to complete the dumb game and make insanely fast cars rofl .. its become more of a toy for me hah)

about the whole US being obese.. well.. it may seem that way, but it really isnt, yes there may be some people that are, but a good number of them is through genetics.. not what they eat; you have to keep in mind that just because someone is obese does not mean that they eat wrong, obesity can come from thousands of factors from stress, to diseases

and btw.. im not just talking about US.. making things easier is world wide.. or else there would be no such thing as exporting nor importing.. since no one would have anything that was usefull.. just think of how the world would have changed if Eli Whitney never sold the cotten gen.. or Alexander Graham Bell never invented the telephone.. or even Thomas Edison never invented the light bulb

.. if nothing was ever invented.. life would never change, no computers.. no paper.. we would all be out working on our families farms making food for ourselves

why deprive a community of something that could be usefull? Thats like no one helping the current situation in Louisiana .. why help? they dont need us? .. but did we ? yes.. we did, because humans no matter what beliefs or religion are all related in one thing... helping other people, its what we do. (would say more but.. i figure this is good enough)

[Europa]

OK This is starting to get silly now :Looking_a

...& we'd probably actually all be happier working on our families farms making food for ourselves.

[XCNuse]

rofl.. probably.. mainly cause we wouldnt know anything else :p

[mrodgers]

.. if nothing was ever invented.. life would never change, no computers.. no paper.. we would all be out working on our families farms making food for ourselves

...& we'd probably actually all be happier working on our families farms making food for ourselves.
Hmm, working on my family's farm making food for myself and my family as opposed to working for a company making millions or billions and paying me pennies for it while my hole gets dug deeper and deeper as the companies charge more and more to expand their wallets and pays me less and less while I try to feed my family with those pennies. Doesn't sound too bad to me. It's funny how the cost of everything goes up 40% per year, the government or economists, whoever, says the cost of living has gone up 3.5% and I get a wopping 1.5% raise every year. Those numbers just don't add up. I paid $3.19 the other day for gas. A year ago I paid $1.89. Two years ago I paid $1.59. 1.59 x 2 is 3.18, that is an increase of 100% in 2 years. A far cry from the 3.5% cost of living increase they say every year.

[Rotary]

Don't talk to me about fuel prices, hehe.. America has always had fuel cheaper compared to Australia.. now and before.

Example:

1 gallon [US, liquid] = 3.7854118 litre

Right now you pay $3.19 US for 1 gallon of fuel (3.79 litres).

Right now I pay $1.36 AUD for 1 litre of fuel.

$3.19 USD is $4.15 AUD (at the time of posting)

$1.36 AUD is $1.05 USD (at the time of posting)

In order for me to buy a gallon of fuel, at our current price, it would cost $5.15 AUD which would be $3.96 USD if your fuel was the same per litre as ours. Doh!! :)

Oh and two years ago fuel cost about $0.95 a litre. So, two years ago a gallon of fuel for me would have cost $3.60... not sure what our dollar was like back then though, but if it was similar to now it would have been $2.77 USD if your prices per litre were the same as ours.

:D All in good fun, and I understand what you mean too... it's just you're finally catching up to the rest of us, so get over it! :D :p

[Gunn]

Wait 'til you see what they are paying in Germany, they'll have nothing left but ghost cars soon if the price doesn't ease.

A seguay to steer this topic back on track.

[Rotary]

:rofl: nice ;)

I always liked the ghost car option in other titles I have played that had it. Helped with improving my time often, although sometimes I found it frustrating and distracting so I would switch it off for a bit. I don't care either way, I just need to be bothered to learn how to use the replay analyser for LFS again.

GT3 & 4 have both BTW. :)

[mdmx]

I don't want the experience to be 'as easy as possible'. If it was I'd stop playing. I play LFS for the challenge. The challenge of driving fast. The challenge of passing. The challenge of pit strategy. The challange of improve myself.

Personally (and I know most people don't agree with me) I think a ghost car will make beating times easier. You've got something to chase and copy.

As I said earlier I KNOW LFS has to have certain unrealistic bits to make it playable on a small screen with no g-forces. but this is GOING TO FAR.

I'm very very very pleased that it is a patented idea, and hope I never see it in LFS.

But ultimately less satisfying. And I bet you'd be unable to go the same speed without something to follow. So in that respect it's tantermount (sp?) to cheating.

I don't have enough time to practice, and i think most of players have same problem. And it's also very boring to drive against clock. Ghost car would make learning progress even a little bit faster, and more fun. Which means there will be more avarage players, which can't be bad thing for the community.

Actually ghost cars will only help newbies, not the pros. It would make it easier to practice new track. To learn braking points, cornering speeds etc.. It will not help you beat WR, coz when you drive very close to it, it must disappear or it will block you vision and ruin your concenration. And after you are pro or close to it, you know each track and each braking point, you know when you make mistake even without ghostcar. You know immetiadely if you take corner 5mph too slow, etc.. This feature would only help newbies to learn tracks and become avarage player. Again, this can't be a bad think.

I know this from prev games. For example in RBR, i used ghost cars when i was learning tracks. They were allways on when i was newbie on that game. Then, when my times started to be close to WR's, i decided to turn it off. Coz it was only in the way, it did no good, coz i allready knew the tracks and knew immetiadely when i made even a little mistake.

And what comes to patent... What if we development this feature as mod and release it as freeware? It would be possible..

All we need is:
- Replay parser (allready done in all analyzers etc)
- Direct3D hack (API Hook) to draw ghost car (allready done in many other games)
- Car model, or this can even be a box, or what ever. No need to be a real car. A box which color changes when braking / throttling / etc..

What ya say? I can develop some parts, but im not familiar with D3D. If somebody is willing to develop a D3D hook which draws object over the game, which can be controlled by some ez interface, I can do code which controls the object according to data from replay. Like an UI - Engine architecture.

So, anyone who is familiar with D3D and api hooks, and wants this feature, contact me and let's do it! :trampolin :nana: :pillepall

[tek2000]

Yeah to make a mod out of it would be great plus the feature wont be in the game and tristancliffe can stay playing ;) and must not leave the game and we can enjoy ghostcars.
But is there the possibility to get into the game that deep.

But I think it could be possible to hack a client to do just that.
why not connect a ghost car client that reads a telemetry file and sends exactly that data to the server.
On another client you could drive against this telemetry client.
The question is, is it possible to send any position to the server, or will the server calculate the physics , and prevent that from happening as this would also allow cheating .

Stefan

[mdmx]

Hell no it's not possible to send direct positions to the server :) At least i don't think so. And the idea of ghost car is, it's a ghost. You can drive thru it. :)

But could it be possible to generate AI file from replay. I don't know how accurate the driving lines, braking points etc are defined in the AI file.

It's also possible to implement this as a D3D hack, which adds ghost car object into the lfs in-race scene. Good enough, when going online, server checks crc of loaded dll's etc, so i think this can't be used as online hack. I sure hope it can't, i will not implement/release it if it can. MP cheating ruins the game.

Maybe devs could give us some comments?


Yeah to make a mod out of it would be great plus the feature wont be in the game and tristancliffe can stay playing ;) and must not leave the game and we can enjoy ghostcars.
But is there the possibility to get into the game that deep.

But I think it could be possible to hack a client to do just that.
why not connect a ghost car client that reads a telemetry file and sends exactly that data to the server.
On another client you could drive against this telemetry client.
The question is, is it possible to send any position to the server, or will the server calculate the physics , and prevent that from happening as this would also allow cheating .

Stefan

[TIBOW2]

What about drawing a line on the track. This line should be given by the center of gravity of your car during your best lap.
Plus a counter that show you in meters if you are late or in advance. (it could be a arrow green/red changing in lenght.)

[Kutt]

People want stuff to be easier. Which is why something like 70% of Americans are clinically and dangerously obese.

Don't play LFS if you want it easy. Play GT4 :P

I have played a ton of different games\sims over the last 25 years. The problem with a purist mindset is that it assumes that everyone has the same amount of time to devote to a sim as the upper 10%. This is great for the upper 10% because they can wag their finger at those that aren't as accomplished in the game and tell them they need to practice more. It is a mindset you see in every game community. Those that have the time and inclination to put hundreds of hours into playing will always scoff at those that do not have the time.

I think getting people fast as quickly as possible will truly add the most challenge. Is it more of challenge to beat the competition by putting more time into practicing, or is it more challenging to come out ahead in a field full of very talented drivers on the track? I prefer the later.

The ghost is not the only way to approach this. We could use a real time split between current time and best ever/WR/or any other time you wanted to load in. You would be able to see how far you are falling behind or getting ahead by looking at an instantaneous split while you are driving.

Finally, I realize it is in vogue to take shots at Americans. It may be fun to think of us as fat and lazy, as your comment implied. I would recommend you push away from your TV set\Newspaper\magazine and actually go out into the world and experience a little of it yourself. Travel abroad, live some place new, talk to people that challenge your thinking, etc you would be amazed how much you learn. I can assure you it is quite different from what you read and see on TV. They have a job to sell advertisements, the truth is secondary.

I work in an International Fortune 500 company. My coworkers overseas average 4 to 6 weeks of vacations a year. They also have about double the holidays. I have not had a contiguous week of vacation in over 7 years. Most Americans lead a frantic hard working lifestyle. I would LOVE to spend more time improving my lap times if I had the time. I am not off eating cheese burgers, I am earning a living for my wife and children.

Please take these comments for what they were meant to be. It may be worth your time to consider another point of view. In the end, it was not meant to be a flame or a personal attack. peace

[Noobzy]

i must say something it would be cool to record your 'ghost' and uploaded to the internet so other players who dont have internet can download in the cafe and try out other players