Got my Prius... [Archive] - Live for Speed

Solar Hydro

5th September 2005, 09:12

Congratulations :thumb:

Nice car! :nod:
Its better than BMW or Mercedes cause it tries to go new ways with real improvement in technology. But plz give me some facts. How much fuel does it consume? And please no informations from brochures i want your own experiences. And another question: Can u drive only with electric engine if u want? for instance in traffic jams. Or does it only support the normal engine?

Hello Bismarck,

I have only driven 75km with it, average fuel consumption was 4.9l/100km but:

- the batterry wasn't charged fully yet
- I floored it on a straight ;-)
- motorway at 120-130 km/h for 20km with airco
- I stood still for 10 min to make a phone call with airco on (it's 29 degrees)

so that's not necessarily very representative for fuel economy...

My dad owns a Prius previous model. After 4 years, his average is 4.7l/100km.

Yes, you can drive all-electric, by pressing the button 'EV Mode', but max speed is 48km/h in all-electric mode. I drove up a hill with it, it works, but the juice went down quick in the battery.

Solar Hydro

P.S. I am seriously considering getting a plug-in modification with extra batteries and ability to charge up at night via the electricity grid (they are still developing it, should be ready early 2006).

Solar Hydro

10th September 2005, 10:46

Prius update after 1 week and 590km on the counter.

Fuel consumption is still at an average of 4.9l/100km (it has been at 4.8 and at 5.0. at some points).

I didn't do any real city driving yet, I switched-on manual EV mode when driving through village centres (and also twice in a traffic jam and a few times near home and on our business park when showing off the car). Most of the kilometres by far were driven on the motorway. Generally, I practiced normal Belgian speeds, i.e. usually rather above the speed limit.

Yesterday, I drove to Francorchamps to attend the Friday F1 practice (I had won a free ticket), which requires a long motorway journey (140km or so) that gets seriously hilly near the track (I drove a little over 130 km/h on the way there, and set it to 124 km/h cruise control on the way back). Cruise control works remarkably well.

In the 2 x 25km of small winding mountainy roads near the Francorchamps track (with speed limits of 90/70/50), the Prius performed admirably; I had green battery and 2 1/2 (i.e. 150 watt) regenerated power at several points, while the driving was fun on the zigzag roads and definitely comfortable. I had to floor it to pass a big truck full of trees.

The fuel meter is at 4 out of 10 now with 590km travelled.

After the next refuel (may be more than a week from now before I get there), I'll drive a number of days trying to respect all the speed limits, in order to see whether that gives a different fuel consumption result. I'll report on it.

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

10th September 2005, 11:24

Here is my Francorchamps story.

Chose the Stavelot entrance.

Prius EV Mode and 'B' on the automatic transmission worked well on the drenched cow patty parking (which cost 15 euros) - no powersliding for me.

Got to a good viewing location (Pouhon) in time for the second F1 practice session.

I saw a grand total of 3 F1 cars: Alonso's Renault and a Minardi passed once, and after the session a Red Bull passed on the back of a truck... (I did see the crash on the big screen). The rain was pouring!

Wearing only my LFS polo shirt wasn't a good choice. I was freezing and, after a while, physically trembling... lucky that I had an umbrella.

After the F1 non-event, I stayed for the GT2 qualifying; at least those guys had some balls (I was at Pouhon, with a view of 4 corners; they were really flying there; actually my viewing position was better than I had hoped for before I got there).

Afterwards I ran to the main paddock to warm myself up. There were various events there. I did the official Toyota Race simulation in the cockpit of a fake Toyota F1 (my laptime was 2:04.20 which didn't make the top-10). Actually their sim is truly crappy (auto gearbox, no damage, steering wheel was shaking to the extent I couldn't hold in on the straight - and I didn't see anyone else who could).

Another conclusion: the Raidillon is A LOT steeper uphill in real life than on TV or in any sim I've seen. I saw the Porsches on there from a good location.

I took some pics and vids with my phone; quality is likely to be too bad to post; I didn't review them yet.. If anything is worthwhile, I'll edit this post or add separately

Solar Hydro

P.S. Back at the car, I took my muddy shoes off and drove my Prius home on (wet) socks...

Bismarck

10th September 2005, 20:09

Nice and very detailed report ;)

I heard in news about that non-event in the practise-session. Poor you.

Solar Hydro

16th September 2005, 12:03

Solar Hydro

6th October 2005, 22:09

Second refuel on the Prius today:

After having traveled 886 kilometres on this fuel tank, I added 43.51 liters (costing exactly 60 euros).

This is inferior to the result on my first tank, even though I made a very deliberate attempt at trying to respect all speed limits initially to see if that would affect fuel consumption positively. I admit that I rather lapsed on that project after half a tank because I had to rush to meetings a few times and did even more motorway driving than before. I also noticed that EV mode is great in traffic jams, BUT excessive EV mode in traffic jams can be a killer when you get the battery down to zero and the car starts recharging the battery by running the petrol engine hard while standing still...

This tank result yields:

4.91 liters per 100 km (although the Prius meter shows 4.7)

(this is funny because on the previous tank the Prius meter showed 4.9 and my own calculation was 4.67 - perhaps I'm just revealing my uselesness at maths...)

In other measuring units, this yields:

57.53 MPG Imperial
47.91 MPG USA

Solar Hydro

P.S. I reset the meter once again because I need to experiment the best solutions for driving up hills (driving up hills slowly - at speed limit - seemed to harm fuel consumption; there is lots of debate about hill driving strategies on the Prius messageboards)

OPK

7th October 2005, 06:03

Hm, you need a strategy to drive up a hill? :P ;)

Nono, it´s a very nice car and I always enjoy your reports here :up:

Tweaker

7th October 2005, 07:42

Hey Solar, doesn't the Prius have some trippy dash action goin on while driving? :)

Can you take a picture of it (or movie?) :) If I remember correctly, it has some crazy diagram of how the engine is working.

BTW, wowzah, that is some nice MPG!!! More than doubled my amount! :faint:

Solar Hydro

27th October 2005, 22:12

Third refuel on the Prius today.

I thought I was very low on fuel, so I opted for a Texaco station at the bottom of a hill, but it turned out that I wasn't low at all... I have to learn to interpret the meter (it nags).

After having traveled 896 kilometres on this fuel tank, I added 42.30 liters (the price per litre was 1.285 euros), yielding:

4.72 liters per 100km (Prius meter shows 4.8, on the edge of 4.7, it was jumping from 4.8 to 4.7 in the past few days).

Converted to other measurements, this means:
49.83 MPG USA
59.85 MPG Imperial

Referring to Tweaker's request, I took some pictures of the Prius fuel efficiency, braking regeneration, and engine selection screens with my phone camera while in traffic jams, and with my mom's digital camera while standing still, but they are all bad (phone cam sucks, mom's camera always flashes inside the car, didn't find how to turn flash off). I will try again with another camera in the coming days and edit this post when I get a few suitable shots).

I conclude that driving fast uphill helps fuel efficiency a bit, especially when the road thereafter is flat or downhill.

Solar Hydro

P.S. My next experiment (perhaps I'll start tomorrow) will be to inflate the tyres to 42psi front and 40 psi rear. Supposedly this yields better MPG. I'll have to drive slowly to a petrol station nearby to avoid heating the tyres before the air pump. I didn't adjust the tyres on refuel tonight because they only had an analogue bar meter, and I didn't know the psi/bar conversion from the top of my head ;-) Perhaps I should also try this...
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/10/inflate_your_ti.php

P.S.2. This time the consumption meter reset itself on its own at the petrol station, just when I was planning to leave it running indefinitely to know my overall efficiency. I need to investigate that.

P.S.3. I wish I had known that I had quite a bit of fuel left, because actually I was planning to re-try the Total Excellium fuel that the car was filled with on purchase. Total claims that this fuel is more efficient (i.e. you consume less), and fact is that my first tank was by far the best of the 4 tanks I have now used overall. That was also the tank with which I drove in the mountains near Francorchamps, which makes me consider that Total's claims might have merits, even though I remain very very sceptical. Note that all Belgian petrol stations serve 95 octane and 98 octane (I always took 95 - which is the standard quality) whilst apparently the Prius runs fine on the American 87 octane and any ethanol mixes.

AtomAnt

29th October 2005, 16:50

Did you see this Solar?

Prius hybrids being recalled

(Tokyo-AP, Oct. 14, 2005 5:33 AM) _ Toyota is recalling 160,000 of its popular Prius hybrid cars because of an electrical problem that could cause the engine to stall.

The company says no accidents or injuries have been reported.

Toyota suspects a computer glitch. The problem can shut off the gasoline engine but is not regarded as a safety issue because drivers can still count on the hybrid's electric motor to steer to the side of the road.

The recall includes 75,000 Prius cars sold in the U.S. and 85,000 sold throughout Europe. The models affected were manufactured between August 2003 and February 2005.

Hope it doesn't affect you lad. Nice car.

XCNuse

29th October 2005, 17:24

Solar Hydro

30th October 2005, 17:29

Did you see this Solar?
Prius hybrids being recalled

Thanks AtomAnt, yes I saw that some time ago ;-)
My Prius is more recent, and doesn't seem to be affected.

As regards (predicted) reliability, see:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/buyingleasing/best-worst-cars-in-reliability-1005.htm#below

Solar Hydro

P.S. I have now inflated the tyres to 42/40 psi, and some pictures, and perhaps even a movie are in the works.

Solar Hydro

30th October 2005, 17:31

i kinda like the car just slightly, the only thing i really dont like about it is that its waaaay to high, the thing is taller than it is wide (and it is quite wide).. it just looks out of proportion lol, if the thing sat lower and had a chopped top, i think it would look tons better

Strange comment, the Prius is actually not tall at all. I'm not tall at all myself. Perhaps my picture is misleading ;-)

Solar Hydro

XCNuse

30th October 2005, 18:03

lol look from this angle and lots of things look out of proportion lol
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/graphics/2004/11/08/coty19.jpg

Solar Hydro

31st October 2005, 08:36

I didn't say that it's a beautiful car, and didn't buy it for the looks.

The shape is optimised for aerodynamics. The windshield angle is very small and the roof is sculpted specially to make the air flow (I didn't know that until I got the car, it's really weird looking from above).

There is also an air diffuser at the bottom rear like on the big GTR cars ;-)

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

31st October 2005, 13:04

Hello Tweaker and all,

As requested, here is a movie of the Prius dashboard screen while driving. It's rather shaky, but covers the various system states (petrol engine, electric engine, both engines, no engines, braking and stopping) ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/index.php?v=_QUjv4X-jt0
or
http://www.vimeo.com/clip=17433

(the movie doesn't stream well on YouTube over here; on Vimeo it takes minutes to load with a blank screen, but once it plays it plays smoothly)

I have also posted dashboard pictures on:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/solar_hydro/

Solar Hydro

Hey Solar, doesn't the Prius have some trippy dash action goin on while driving? :)

Can you take a picture of it (or movie?) :) If I remember correctly, it has some crazy diagram of how the engine is working.
:

xaotik

31st October 2005, 13:12

I like the "Fuel consumption and regeneration" screen - looks like an arcade game with those little cars. "Collect 100 points and get an extra little car!"

Solar Hydro

31st October 2005, 13:27

I now have two movie sites in the post above...

YouTube streams, but it's choppy with starts and stops (at my office, on my home ISP it streams fine).

Vimeo takes minutes to load, but then it plays smoothly (at my office, on my home ISP it loads instantly)

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

31st October 2005, 21:41

I like the "Fuel consumption and regeneration" screen - looks like an arcade game with those little cars. "Collect 100 points and get an extra little car!"

My best to-date is 3 little green cars on a single 5 minute bar. Achieved by decelerating slowly with just a little braking on a motorway exit ramp.

Today, while driving home I managed to use 0.2l/100km in 5 minutes on a downhill section and then using EV mode in town, with half a little green car as a bonus. I have been trying to do well there, traffic lights were favourable... (usually I have 1 1/2 little green cars there because I have to stop for the lights).

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

21st November 2005, 21:09

Fourth refuel on the Prius today.

After having traveled a meagre 841 kilometres on this fuel tank, I added 44.65 liters (by far the most, pretty near the end of the 45l capacity), yielding:

5.308 liters per 100km (Prius meter shows 5.0).

Converted to other measurements, this means:
44.31 MPG USA
53.22 MPG Imperial

Explanatory factors include:

- Even more motorway driving (went to a far away airport);

- Getting stuck in several LONG traffic jams (after 30 min of start/stop crawling where the Prius is awesome, it desperately wants to charge the battery);

- Heating (last days were 2-5-8 degrees centigrade); the Prius heater is amazingly quick, you get real heat in under 1 minute from cold start.

Now I've grabbed that Total Excellium fuel again for a second try, to see if their claims have any veracity.

Note: the Prius fuel tank contains a 'bladder' which responds to temperature and air pressure etc, which explains (I hope) the differences between the Prius meter and my own measurements. Then again, my maths might well be completely wrong.

Solar Hydro

P.S.1. The price was €1.288/l for 95 octane
P.S.2. Bad start: after 1 day Prius meter shows 5.3l/100km.

Solar Hydro

8th December 2005, 19:45

Fifth refuel on the Prius today.

The colder temperatures clearly have a major effect on Prius fuel consumption, although the temperature surely affects any car's fuel efficiency.

After having traveled a meagre 811 kilometres on this fuel tank (using the Total Excellium fuel discussed before), I added 43.10 liters, yielding:

5.31 liters per 100km (Prius meter shows 5.2, was fluctuating near the edge of 5.2 and 5.3 all the time).

Converted to other measurements, this means:
44.3 MPG USA
53.2 MPG Imperial

Temperature in the past weeks was around freezing for several days, we had snow, and generally 0-2-3-5-7 degrees centigrade.

Solar Hydro, now operating on Q8 fuel for the remainder of the year 2005. Happy New Year already :xprincess:frosty::wizard:

Solar Hydro

28th December 2005, 12:59

Ack, I needed another pitstop after all before the end of the year...

Sixth refuel on the Prius today.

After having traveled 774 kilometres on this fuel tank, I added 43.5 liters (costing 55.55 euros, Q8 brand), yielding:

5.62 liters per 100km (Prius meter shows 5.3), i.e. by far my worst result.

Converted to other measurements, this means:
41.85 MPG USA
50.26 MPG Imperial

Temperature in the past weeks was around freezing for several days, we had snow again, and I had to wait for my colleague to defrost her car's locks with my engine idling for 10 min (from cold start while it was freezing = very bad for fuel efficiency). Note: The Prius doors can be opened with the key in one's pocket... it's called "smart entry" and it works ;-)

Solar Hydro
Happy New Year, again :xprincess:frosty::wizard:

Hyperactive

28th December 2005, 13:57

:tilt: Omg! You're really obsessed with that fuel consumption. :) And electric motors are for wheelchairs :p

So I guess you're happy with it?

Tweaker

28th December 2005, 14:02

Ahhh cool! I hadn't seen that video earlier, just got back in this thread :)

But that is definitely cool :up: Thx. Trying to understand what all the arrows mean... but I am sure it is for that brake generator stuff. Neat to see it so active. I am almost thinking of having a hybrid at some point... I want to get some crazy mpg, and save cash of course ;)

Solar Hydro

28th December 2005, 16:02

:tilt: Omg! You're really obsessed with that fuel consumption. :) And electric motors are for wheelchairs :p

So I guess you're happy with it?

Bismarck asked me for real-world performance statistics (high up in this thread); I am providing them :nod:

The car fully meets my expectations, until now, but I've only had it since 3 September 2005, so it's early days yet to judge.

Points I don't like: rear-window visibility is poor (strange rear spoiler), too many electronic beeps for all kinds of 'features' (including reverse gear), fuel gauge not detailed enough (doesn't have a countdown in km like some recent cars), the emergency triangle in the boot gets loose and rattles (I've fixed that a few times, but it starts again after a while, need to think of a permanent fix), traction control and stability control cannot be turned off, a new little rattle in the right front door (I HATE rattles, need to look into fixing that one), the plastic wheel covers, still looking for proper rims.

Solar Hydro

smidge

28th December 2005, 18:37

Only 700kms in almost 1 month? I do that much in 1 week, think if you really need a car, bike would consume less

joke :p

Solar Hydro

28th December 2005, 21:19

I park at airports a lot ;-)

I added a picture of a Prius taxi I spotted in Ljubljana to the set of pictures linked at the start of this thread. Saw another Prius taxi there again this month of December. It had 'HIBRID' written in big black letters on the yellow rear bumper.

Solar Hydro

smidge

29th December 2005, 09:04

Id say its a part of a promo campain or something, like the taxi company got them for a lower price. Because they are not popular here, I've only seen one since they came out. Just around the border in Italy it seems to be different, I even saw a honda insight there.

Solar Hydro

9th January 2006, 21:42

Hello again,

I went to the car wash with the Prius today for the first time, a little over 4 months after taking delivery of the car (I don't EVER plan to wash it by hand!). I needed that car wash because the salt spray from the roads had obscured the side windows and especially the little window under the rear spoiler a bit too much, which impeded visibility. It's quite difficult (for me, I'm not very tall) to reach over the roof to take off the little antenna, so perhaps the car isn't that low after all.

In addition, I did the seventh refuel on the Prius later in the day. Quite quick, because I drove 600+ km to Amsterdam and back the other day, with suspicious green battery almost all the way while driving mostly 120-124 km/h for the whole distance, with limited sections at 100-104km/h. I attribute the green battery to the low outside temperature which was 2-3° centigrade. The Prius meter was showing a flat systematic 5.5l/100km on that trip. It was remarkable to see the completely constant readout on the meter. (Holland is flat).

After having traveled 788 kilometres on this fuel tank, I added 45.0 liters (the fuel tank capacity is... 45 liters), deliberately choosing an 'el cheapo no name petrol station' to check whether the 'el cheapo' fuel makes any difference. (the price was €1.14/l, my dad paid €1.31/l at a branded petrol station the same day).

The analysis of this fuel tank is as follows:

5.71 liters per 100km (Prius meter shows 5.4, on the edge of 5.5 where it was earlier in the day), i.e. I keep racking up worse results over and over... as the temperature gets lower, but this tank was the max on motorway distance for sure.

Converted to other measurements, this means:
41.19 MPG USA
49.47 MPG Imperial

Solar Hydro

P.S. Taking advantage of a passenger for the trip to Amsterdam, we managed to isolate the developing dashboard rattle noise (I am notoriously sensitive/hysterical about rattle noises in my cars) as coming from a little grid on top of the dashboard screen. When pressing a finger on it, the noise stops, so I'm hopeful that it can be fixed.

alzys177

13th January 2006, 03:23

varjsa-9

13th January 2006, 14:41

HO MY GOD....
so many gadegts and gizmos.. would not like to be you when the ecu starts throwing out fault codes.. i am in the motor trade and main dealers have enough problems fault finding normal cars with out this little pandoras box....:razz:

but on the bright side you could be really eco friendly and recycle it into a hair dryer..:thumb:

What do you mean by normal cars? I mean computers (and fault codes) have been part of this for years now. :D

This is the future, better get used to it :razz:

alzys177

13th January 2006, 16:03

lol.. as i said i am in the motor trade and know all about computers and ecu's on cars.. i also know how many fault codes prove untraceable even by main dealers on there own cars..:shrug: and that is on conventional ic cars, let alone hybred cars which are even more complex....:Looking_a
lets not forget hybred technology is brand new to the market place and theses early cars are bound to have problems and faults not thrown up in testing as do all new concepts..:scratchch

so basicaly your a guinie pig, driving a prospective hair dryer:razz:

varjsa-9

13th January 2006, 16:37

lol.. as i said i am in the motor trade and know all about computers and ecu's on cars.. i also know how many fault codes prove untraceable even by main dealers on there own cars..:shrug:

That's natural, since nearly all codes point out to several possible targets. In my opinion, those codes are good for diagnostics and evaluating possible problem areas. While my knowledge of latest machines is very limited, I still don't think there will be a ecu capable to pinpoint failure (or even fix it real-time) in near future.

and that is on conventional ic cars, let alone hybred cars which are even more complex....:Looking_a
lets not forget hybred technology is brand new to the market place and theses early cars are bound to have problems and faults not thrown up in testing as do all new concepts..:scratchch

That's the price we have to pay for new (and usually better) technology :D

alzys177

13th January 2006, 22:11

well this is not new technology really is it .. it's a mish mash of current technology put togther to help our goverments meet emmision levels they have promised each other to meet..:Looking_a
100 mpg is not world shattering, david vizard built a 100mpg mini back in the 70's and that was just a good engine build ... no pluging hair dryers into it:razz:

now when we get fuel cells that will be new technology!

varjsa-9

13th January 2006, 22:38

Solar Hydro

13th January 2006, 22:55

Hello ALZY and all,

This thread (largely at Bismarck's request - see near the top), keeps track of real-world Prius performance in a continental European country. It is, and will remain, an honest account of the car's life, and my driving behaviour/experience as its only driver.

I haven't had any problems (yet?), but I will be brutally honest in reporting any problems or issues (see also my post criticising some aspects), and the car's maintenance track record will be reported. I was told by the dealer on purchase that the first maintenance would be either at 15000km or 1 year (Prius enthusiasts say you should change the oil earlier, I haven't). I think I'll hit 15000km earlier than 1 year (I passed 6000km today).

The Prius is optimised for environmental performance, over and above fuel efficiency (little diesels will match it or even beat it on pure fuel efficiency).

My name is Solar Hydro for a reason.

Hydrogen direct vehicles have worked for some years (I still regret not buying a BMW 7 HL in the Internet boom times. Even if it would have been a bit difficult to refuel, it would have looked nice in my museum).

Fuel cell vehicles have worked for some years, can even be leased today on a more or less commercial basis (The Honda FCX has been leased to governments/companies/rich families but the price is not realistic for the average consumer and the refueling infrastructure is not practicable today for general purpose use). I firmly expect that it will eventually become economic (compared to transport alternatives), but the price point is/will be influenced massively by overall energy economics (which are extremely thwarted by commodity supply conditions/sources, environmental conditions and differentiated taxation). I fully expect to be a very early adopter of a fuel cell vehicle, but I'm afraid that it's unlikely to be imminent.

I remain on course for the purchase of an expensive a plug-in hack for the Prius (I personally experienced a long urban drive in an experimental hacked Prius with 62kg batteries in the boot, and its performance was objectively spectacular, even if the electronics and battery placement were a bit pre-industrialised).

The OLFSL crowd is invited to type 'Toyota Alessandro Volta' in a search engine. Sadly, it's only a prototype, but effectively built... and worth having a look at. Speed is electronically capped at 250km/h.

Meet ya on the track!

Solar Hydro

alzys177

18th January 2006, 18:21

I say it's new, since it hasn't been done before :D

-- edit ---
By the way, where did that 100mpg come from ?

and take a look at this: http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/content_pages/record.asp?recordid=43581:x

the 100 mpg came from the mileage per imp gallon that David Vizard achived from a mini back in the 70's..:thumb:

as far as that guiness thing goes it is very impressive but its not a production road car capable of carrying passengers is it..:shrug:

varjsa-9

18th January 2006, 19:23

David Vizard's Mini was? :smileypul

Ah.. nevermind. This is a never ending story :razz:

alzys177

22nd January 2006, 16:03

hi
lol dont you know what a mini is?? it must be the most famous car in the world !! basicaly the uf1 is based on it:Looking_a

Scirocco

22nd January 2006, 16:24

I think everyone knows what a mini is. Seeing as you mentioned production cars, what production mini achieved 100mpg? I bet you won't find any no matter how hard you look. :schwitz:

alzys177

23rd January 2006, 16:47

hmmmmmmmmmmm
mini's are a production car, and once more David Vizard, built one totally for economy, back in the late 1970's and he was achiving 100 mpg with it. it retained it's standard "A" series engine, so was not extenslively modified, just a carefull build using chosen components ... cant make it clearer than that.. :shrug:
if you want proof of those figures you will have to check in this book, as the end economy figures and all the build spec's are in it.....
http://www.bevenyoung.com.au/prdt1149.htm

David Vizard is renouned as a mini guru has written several books on them and many other cars.. he is a free lance engineer as far as i know and is world renouned for being one of the best.:thumb:

the point i was trying to make there is you cant compare a concept built trike type thing that one small person rides in, built of carbonfibre and other lavish meterials,that would probably get blown away in a gentle breeze, to a production road going car, capable of carrying passengers and practile use.. can you?:scratchch

varjsa-9

23rd January 2006, 21:58

Our habit to exaggerate things seems to create bad conversations :D

alzys177

28th January 2006, 13:42

when you say "our" i take it you mean you? as i dont belive i have exaggerated anything myself:scratchch

Scirocco

28th January 2006, 14:24

alzys177

28th January 2006, 16:51

lol you got to pick holes in things just cant accept it can you ?
we are thirty years down the line and we have hybred cars just to achive what d vizard did in the 70's .. i did not say it was a standard production car just a production car.. if you cant accept it, it's your problem not mine :shrug:

Solar Hydro

1st February 2006, 13:15

8th refuel on the Prius today

After having traveled 834 kilometres on this fuel tank, I added 44.0 liters, again living on the edge of running out. The Q8 price was €1.33/l.

The analysis of this fuel tank is as follows:

5.27 liters per 100km (Prius meter shows 5.3). This is a little improvement over a couple of previous tanks, whilst the weather was equally cold, and I was using the 'el cheapo' no brand euro95 petrol.

Converted to other measurements, this means:
44.63 MPG USA
53.6 MPG Imperial

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

22nd February 2006, 16:18

Needed another pitstop, 9th refuel on the Prius today

After having traveled 782 kilometres on this fuel tank, I added 44.53 liters. The Total Excellium price was €1.28/l.

The analysis of this fuel tank is as follows:

5.69 liters per 100km (Prius meter shows 5.3). Weather was near freezing for most of the period; had a few cold starts into traffic jams that killed fuel efficiency. Around my worst performance to-date.

Converted to other measurements, this means:
41.34 MPG USA
49.65 MPG Imperial

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

15th March 2006, 14:35

10th refuel on the Prius today

After having traveled 849 kilometres on this fuel tank, I added exactly 43 liters. The Q8 price was €1.338/l.

The analysis of this fuel tank is as follows:

5.06 liters per 100km (Prius meter shows 5.1). Temperature was near freezing for most of the period, and my driving behaviour was usual.

Converted to other measurements, this means:
46.49 MPG USA
55.83 MPG Imperial

Solar Hydro

Bawbag

15th March 2006, 14:44

Still doesn't get as much MPG as my scooter Solar :D

If I drive slow I can almost double my MPG but going about 50MPH is slow enough. :razz:

danowat

15th March 2006, 14:48

They can only get better, they still don't offer anymore fuel economy than either a small petrol engined car, or a medium to large sized engined diesel car, I get 55mpg and a lot of fun (155bhp and 350nm of torque) out of my diesel Mondeo.

We were recently disscusing the merits of hybrids on another forum, and it would seem that ATM the technology still has a long way to go before it gives the returns the manufacturers say it does.

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22750-2068245,00.html

Dan,

Solar Hydro

15th March 2006, 17:36

The Prius is optimised for minimum environmental impact in terms of emissions, not low MPG.

I have written before that some (smallish) diesels have similar or even better fuel economy than the Prius, but they generate puffs of black smoke... (and that smoke contains deadly micro-dust particles and makes historic buildings go black).

Solar Hydro

P.S.1. I had read that article comparing Lexus and Mercedes SUVs. They are at double my consumption and probably a multiple in noxious emissions.
P.S.2. This whole thread was triggered by Bismarck's request to me to receive real-world Prius statistics (as opposed to claims and brochures).
P.S.3. Might be interesting to put your Mondeo and my Prius together for a 0-100km/h test. I have not tried hard accel, but the brochure says it takes 9.5 sec from standstill to reach 100km/h. If you car has those HP and torque metrics, you might win, but not by much ;-).

Solar Hydro

8th April 2006, 11:04

11th refuel on the Prius occurred on 3 April 2006 (in The Netherlands on the way to Germany; I refueled somewhat early because I know that the motorway I was going to take in Germany has few petrol stations).

After having traveled 798 kilometres on this fuel tank, I added exactly 43 liters. The Shell price was €1.445/l (i.e. very expensive).

The analysis of this fuel tank is as follows:

5.38 liters per 100km (Prius meter showed 5.0 - i.e. a big difference - I was on 4.9 for most of the tank but followed-up by long motorway driving).

Temperature was mixed, some very cold days around freezing, some days above 10 degrees centigrade.

Converted to other measurements, this means:
43.72 MPG USA
52.51 MPG Imperial

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

18th April 2006, 19:05

I passed the 10.000km mark on the Prius today.

The car still works fine, I haven't done any maintenance of any kind (and only visited a car wash once...). The only problem is still the rattling noise of the security triangle (I taped the triangle down in the trunk but it still sort of rattles inside its box).

Today, I also made an early fuel stop (Refuel no 12) at the petrol station that I know has a tyre inflator machine that shows BAR and PSI, and automatically pumps air until the amount you preset. I put all 4 tyres on 40 PSI/2.8 BAR (yes that's high, but lower than done by Prius fuel efficiency freaks). It's only the second time that I inflated the tyres, they were around 2.4 BAR. You immediately feel the difference when at 2.8.

The analysis of this fuel tank is as follows:

After having traveled 823 kilometres on this fuel tank, I added exactly 41 liters. The Total Excellium price was €1.415/l (i.e. expensive).

4.98 liters per 100km (Prius meter showed 4.9 - this is the tank I used on motorway to Germany and back - so pretty positive rating on the Shell V-Power fuel, if these supposedly special fuels make a difference).

Converted to other measurements, this means:
47.23 MPG USA
56.72 MPG Imperial

Solar Hydro

GSomm

22nd April 2006, 07:54

I also have a Prius - 13 000 km now. It's fabulous! 5.2 l / 100 km

bal00

22nd April 2006, 20:11

5.38 liters per 100km (Prius meter showed 5.0 - i.e. a big difference - I was on 4.9 for most of the tank but followed-up by long motorway driving).

By the way, do you know about the fuel "bladder" in the Prius? Since the volume of the fuel tank changes depending on the ambient temperature you can't really calculate the mileage precisely. The readout from the computer is probably more precise.

Solar Hydro

23rd April 2006, 16:01

Yes, I know about the 'bladder' (see my post of 21 Nov 2005 in this thread), which is why I have reported my own measurement and the Prius computer readout on every tank since day 1.

My own measurement is based on the fuel I put in, and that I pay for, so I tend to think that that should be my reference.

(Overall, after 10.000km, I must be at 5.1 ish liter/100km, so the result is consistent with G. Sommer. I don't know when G. Sommer got his car, but for me it was Sep 2005, so the average includes more winter than summer and we are Europeans driving fast on motorways. When I go to other places than my office, which do not involve motorway driving, and temps are higher like last week, I see it visibly dropping to 4.7l)

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

8th May 2006, 12:29

Yippee new record :-)

13th refuel on the Prius today.

After having traveled 918 kilometres on this fuel tank, I added exactly 42,2 liters. The Q8 price was €1.433/l.

The analysis of this fuel tank is as follows:

4.607 liters per 100km (Prius meter showed 4.5).

Temperature was quite warm, and maybe I did a little more city driving than usual.

Converted to other measurements, this means:
51.06 MPG USA
61,32 MPG Imperial

Solar Hydro

P.S.1. After refueling, I drove in EV mode to my office 2km further. Including this distance would have put me in high 4.5s.

P.S.2. These stats suggest that doing 1000km on a fuel tank (capacity 45l) might just be possible.

alzys177

11th May 2006, 20:30

hi all
just found this quote from Jeremy Clarkson on the Pirus, and thought i would share it with you all.......

"And what's so good about the Prius anyway? It does 45mpg, which makes it thirstier and dirtier than most diesels, it has two engines, which means two filthy production lines and imagine what it would look like alongside Berlusconi's Quattroporte and Merkel's Merc? A Prius would make Mr Blair look like an even bigger berk than he already is."

lol great minds think alike.........:thumb:

avellis

11th May 2006, 20:36

just found this quote from Jeremy Clarkson on the Pirus, and thought i would share it with you all.......

As much a fan as I am of Jeremy and Top Gear, I can safely say that we can ignore him as far as hybrids or environment-friendly stuff are concerned.

But in last week's brand new episode, it was absolutely hilarious when some environmentalists and politicians "invaded" the Top Gear track. They would make fun of the biodiesel Focus et al and when some sort of minister said that he and Jeremy share the same concerns about the environment, Jeremy said: "That's right sunshine". :D

tristancliffe

11th May 2006, 20:41

No, he said they DIDN'T share the same views ;) And the Minister was David Cameron, head of the Conservative Party (I would say the best party, but I'll just get flamed by silly socialists ;))

avellis

11th May 2006, 20:44

Whoops I need my ears checked and my english freshened up. Indeed that makes more sense. :x :D Thanks Tristan for the correction.

(Not that politicians that live in their own reality aren't out there, unfortunately)

dirty_rider

23rd May 2006, 08:56

solar hydro: http://news.com.com/Hacking+your+Prius/2100-11389_3-6074671.html?tag=nefd.top

:)

Solar Hydro

6th June 2006, 11:55

14th refuel on the Prius today.

After having traveled 919 kilometres on this fuel tank, I added 43,5 liters (maybe ovepumped a bit much to reach a round number. The Q8 price was €1.414/l.

The analysis of this fuel tank is as follows:

4.73 liters per 100km (Prius meter showed 4.6).

Converted to other measurements, this means:
49.73 MPG USA
59,72 MPG Imperial

Solar Hydro

bozo

10th June 2006, 08:17

There's an excellent article in this weeks Economist magazine (June 10th - 16th) about Electric Cars, including the 100mpg Prius (improved battery pack, modified control software to enable car to run 30 miles on batteries alone instead of usual 1 mile, and blending in of electric power at higher speeds when petrol engine kicks in).

Big thing at the moment seems to be plug-in recharging, which Toyota seems not to be in favour of, but which can reduce emissions and increase savings big-time. One example is at http://www.energycs.com/RecentProjects2005_08.htm

Pretty much a cottage industry currently, but will hopefully create waves that get the larger manufacturers to sit up and take notice. In the meantime Solar Hydro, when are you going to start hacking your Prius? :)

Solar Hydro

10th June 2006, 17:14

Look up higher in this forum (posting 7 or 8 in the P.S.).

I personally tested the hacked Prius (62kg of extra Lithium Ion batteries - including the Valence Technologies kit - in the boot, equipped with a normal electricity plug - for plug-in recharging) in the Summer of 2005. The battery performance was spectacular; the cost as well...

There is a real possibility that I'll decide to go for it... but I'm also looking out for proper hydrogen propulsion (fuel cell if needed) before making the jump.

Solar Hydro

P.S. Went to the car wash with the Prius for the second time today; it's still black and shiny; but washing was imperfect and I have an inexplicable scratch on the hood :-(

Solar Hydro

27th June 2006, 22:11

15th refuel on the Prius today (second best tank since I have the car).

After having traveled 931 kilometres on this fuel tank (the longest distance I've done), I added exactly 43 liters.
The Texaco price was €1.404/l.

The analysis of this fuel tank is as follows:

4.618 liters per 100km (Prius meter showed 4.6).

Converted to other measurements, this means:
50.93 MPG USA
61.17 MPG Imperial

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

14th July 2006, 22:38

16th refuel on the Prius today.

After having traveled 879 kilometres on this fuel tank, I added 43,3 liters.
I was aiming for that el cheapo petrol station that gave me good results in the past, but it didn't accept my debit card, so I went on to an Esso station on the same road (which was actually cheaper! it's a road where they compete!).

The Esso price was €1.319/l.

The analysis of this fuel tank is as follows:

4.926 liters per 100km (Prius meter showed 4.6 = biggest difference ever). This is all the more suspicious because I was on 4.5 after 500km when it went to 4.6 and I expected to be teetering on the edge of 4.6 again. Admittedly, it was my usual motorway routine and big airco was needed for the whole period.

Converted to other measurements, this means:
47.4 MPG USA
56.93 MPG Imperial

Solar Hydro

russraine

15th July 2006, 11:50

Hi Solar,

Am interested in the Fuel Econmy of the prius, what was the manafacturer estimate of the MPG usage?

So it looks like you're getting 57 Imperal MPG, obviously this is a biggish car and if it were the petrol only alternative would be much higher.

We have a nissan micra profile 1.0 litre, which from reports online ranges from 45 to 60 MPG, so probably similar in reality.

Of course this is a smaller car (petrol only), and less powerful, but it still goes over 100MPH and as such as a road car is fast enough.

I am just surprised that the hybrid technology isn't that efficient, it seems good when you compare it to it's identical road car class, but there are petrol only cars out there which are more economic and fuel efficient. If everyone had one of these, cheaper cars we would certainly meet the emmisions standars the world is aiming for currently, and would be more likely as these cars are more affordable to a mass range of people.

Hybrid/Eco cars are great, but most people will choose cheaper cars (petrol) over them unless they can balance out the expenses.

However, I do aprove of the efforts of Hybrid cars, but I don't see the need to jump from a petrol only car which is pretty much identical in MPG to a hybrid car. I think hydrogen powered cars are the real answer

varjsa-9

15th July 2006, 13:21

But the fuel economy isn't the only point in building hybrid cars. It's not all about our wallets but the mother nature also - emission levels.

I know the following sheet is from the manufacturers site and based on Sol's data, are a bit optimistic. But keep in mind that this likely applies to both.

http://www.lfs-league.com/misc/levels.jpg

..and I managed to find also Micra 1.0 CO2 level (141g/km), but I couldn't confirm which model it was so I ended up to pick up the latest model. Both cars also passed Euro IV level, which isn't that significant though.

-edit--
and sorry about those translation errors in the pic ;)

Solar Hydro

15th July 2006, 14:32

Hello Russraine,

The Prius is optimised for minimum environmental impact in terms of emissions, not low MPG.

I am reporting on fuel efficiency etc. at Bismarck's request.

I have written before in this thread that some (smallish) diesel cars have similar or even better fuel economy than the Prius, but they generate smoke that contains deadly micro-dust particles and makes historic buildings go black. I am sure that some (smallish) petrol cars have similar or even better fuel economy than the Prius, and may come close on emissions.

The official Prius data on emissions is as follows:

CO 180 HC 20 NOx 10 CO2 104
The official Micra (1.2 - 48kw engine) info from nissan.co.uk (I see no 1.0 model there) only contains the CO2 figure, which is 143 (for the 3-door model - it is 161 for the 5-door model). Also the Micra fuel consumption listed on the specs is much higher than for the Prius, but driving style is very important.

As for Toyota's claims vs reality, I am using more petrol than they claim. The Toyota Europe website contains the following:

Extra urban conditions L/100km (93/116/EEC)4.2 Urban conditions L/100km (93/116/EEC)5.0 Combined L/100 km (93/116/EEC)4.3
My experience is the opposite (and worse); I use more petrol on motorways than for city driving, and my summer average must be around 4.7 l/100km (winter around 5.0 maybe even 5.1). If work gets a little quieter over the summer, I may decide to drive a tank (mainly to/from office) through the city instead of taking the motorway to see whether I can improve - it's actually a shorter distance through the city).

Solar Hydro

P.S. As discussed above in this tread, I believe in hydrogen as a fuel and I have commented upon hydrogen cars (BMW 7 HL) and hydrogen fuel cell cars (Honda FCX) - my name isn't accidental. Also, these Hydrids are in fairly early stages of commercialisation even if the Prius is actually in its third generation. If no-one would buy hybrids, it's clear that there wouldn't be much incentive to develop them further.

Webster

15th July 2006, 15:01

Today, I refueled the Prius for the first tim
e.

After having traveled 921 kilometres I managed to add exactly 43 liters.

That yields:

4.67 liters per 100 km (although the Prius meter shows 4.9)
60.49 miles per liquid gallon Imperial
50.37 miles per liquid gallon USA

Solar Hydro

OK, so that's slighty better that my Volvo 740 Turbo wagon with a Mustang 5 litre (stroked to 5.4 litre) engine.:razz: There are many Prius cars (and Smart cars) here. It's time to relegate the Volvo to occasional use only. Oh, and I think Europe uses a lower sulphur diesel, but here, if I'm behind a diesel powered vehicle with a low mounted exhaust, I can hardly breathe. I would consider biodiesel though.

russraine

15th July 2006, 15:22

we have a 1.0 litre micra, but most of the figures look similar enough, pherhaps a bit higher, nothing major.

I didn't think of the emmisions side, I'll have to look into it more but the car must have a better system after it burns the fuel not to create as much emmision, which is good.

On the other hand, if the plug charging idea took off then that could make the demand for elecetrity grow, this could be bad depending on how the electricity is sourced but that argument goes on.

A yes, Solar and Hydro, I didn't realise up to now, but yes that is clever :)

I can see what you mean about if people didn't buy the hybrids the technology wouldn't evolve, but they're just too expensive for mass market.

If they can produce a proper hybrid city car, then that would be it.

Over here the smaller cars, Micras, Ford Ka's, New BMW MINI, etc are in great numbers, a hybrid of this size and similar price would see the market share rise.

Blackout

15th July 2006, 16:07

On the other hand, if the plug charging idea took off then that could make the demand for elecetrity grow, this could be bad depending on how the electricity is sourced but that argument goes on.

And thats allso the reason we don't have hydrogen cars, the electricity. Or there are cars, but not for sale, or atleast not yet. As you might know the hydrogen is just for storing energy and it takes huge amounts to produce it. We should have very cheap and nature friendly energy (so it would be smart to use pollution wise, not just because the oil ran out), like they have in Island where they use the hot soil (heat from the ground...you know) to produce hydrogen...but they have *gough* few advantages, small country and not so much people and short distanses, so moving to hydrogen economy is easy. I hope the smart scientist will get the fusion reactor sorted out and working in few decades, that would really help. And if I had extra money I would invest my money to Toyota. They are going to make lots of green from beeing green in the future.

Nooo, Im not greed for money. I hug trees :D (just kidding)

edit. And to just add, the finnish goverment sucks big time in these car economy and emissions things. The regulations of EU aren't made to happen and there is no use of buyig a green car, no lower taxes or anything. And buying a new (or any) car is wayyyy too expensive because the illegal payments and the taxes! And that's why we are driving with one of the oldest cars in europe. RRRRRR!

varjsa-9

15th July 2006, 16:36

edit. And to just add, the finnish goverment sucks big time in these car economy and emissions things. The regulations of EU aren't made to happen and there is no use of buyig a green car, no lower taxes or anything. And buying a new (or any) car is wayyyy too expensive because the illegal payments and the taxes! And that's why we are driving with one of the oldest cars in europe. RRRRRR!

I'm positive about seeing a change to this, since we finally can buy "biofuel" (plant oil in it, or so). However, it's still more expensive than the regular one :pillepall so I don't think it will a success yet. It's a step to better direction anyway...

And the hybrid car prices aren't going down before the amount of sold cars is going up. So it's up to us, consumers. Hybrids is the thing day, hydrogen cars are just too far away in future. :shrug:

Blackout

15th July 2006, 17:02

I just see a a big problem in this biofuel thing, it really sounds much more better than it is. 1-2% of ethanol mixed to regular diesel doesn't sound much to me. The idea offcourse (just writing this so you can see Im not just ignorant bastard :)) is that the plant where the booze is brewed only releases the same amount of carbon dixoxsides when it's burnt what it stored when it grew up. Well, ok, that 0% of carbon dioxide increase (atlest in theroy), but the problem is where we get that all material. I'd say no thanks to slavework ethanol from Brazil. And the goverment has just recently woke up for this EU regulations about biofuels. It's a step forward but it's not good enough from consumer point of view. Like Fiendi said, it's more expensive. Who would like to pay even more from your fuel?! To make that ethanol cheaper we need new factory... and there is a sligt change it would be placed here in my home...eeh...village, would give some boost here, for the community and surrounding, I'm gona move out in few years but what a heck :shrug: But the fuel, It's expensive here anyway, blody taxes. Dammit you social security, free healtcare and education system, dam you!

varjsa-9

15th July 2006, 17:17

Dammit you social security, free healtcare and education system, dam you!

:ices_rofl

t1ger

15th July 2006, 17:44

I can see what you mean about if people didn't buy the hybrids the technology wouldn't evolve, but they're just too expensive for mass market.

The oil companies do not want us to have "other" fuelled cars at the mass market yet anyway. Everytime a car is invented which will run on something else, the buy the idea out and then sit on it until such time as we have used all the fossil fuel they have!

Until then (which is most likely going to be too late for the planet) we are mostly stuck with what we have. I would love us all to move to a greener more friendly fuel, but it will not happen so quickly. I drive a 1.5 litre diesel (company car) - I don't think I had a choice of a greener car, but I will check next time for sure.

Plus, I bet if we did all move to another source of fuel (whichever one) - we would soon find other side effects that would mean that it still wasn't the perfect fuel. You can never get something for nothing in nature - every action has an equal and opposite reaction - if you take something to power something else - something will be gained (ie the car moving forward) and something will be lost (ie the waste). The waste might not be as immediately obvious as it is at the moment, but I would bet my life on something being found somewhere that was caused by the new fuel.

This is all just what I think on the subject.

Tim

Webster

15th July 2006, 21:06

journeytoforever.org/biodiesel.html

Solar Hydro

15th July 2006, 21:18

Hello t1ger,

My name Solar Hydro actually stands for Solar Hydrogen Alternative.

The concept is that we electrolyse seawater on a massive industrial scale, using solar power (this involves hydrogen transport, storage and distribution issues), or electrolyse other (waste) water on a local scale, using solar power.

Electrolysis is, using current technology, an energy-inefficient process (you have to put in more electricity than you get out), but Sun and Water are basically there, so do we really care about efficiency if those are the inputs? Absent those inputs, we're dead anyway.

So 'all that's needed' is to get the costs and the environmental impact down of producing solar cells (input is mainly sand, but some precious metals as well, and factories have to make them which affects energy and the environment as well), hydrogen transport and distribution infrastructure if we go for the industrialised/centralised option, and, if chosen as an option for cars and local heating, hydrogen fuel cells (direct hydro in cars is proven to work as well). Clearly this is no small challenge.

Nuclear fission for another 50 years, followed by nuclear fusion, both powering evolved plug-in electric hybrid cars AND electrical/hybrid engine/fuel cell usage for local heating may be a worthwhile interim option. If/once we get nuclear fusion under control, a priority will be to reduce it from 50+bn industrial plants to more localised/micro solutions, which may even become a solution in earnest if this can be achieved.

(Emissions from house/building heating are catastrophic throughout the northern hemisphere with very little by way of filtering not to mention catalytic conversion. This needs to be addressed as a matter of priority equal to cars and trucks but does not seem to be on the agenda of polcy-makers)

As regards biodiesel, I am very sceptical. Think about planting crops, putting manure AND chemicals on to make plants grow, tractors to harvest, transport to factories, factories themselves, transport to refineries, probably some further processing/mixing, transport to petrol/diesel stations, etc. Maybe it's a way of rejigging farm subsidies, and employing 1-2% of the population, but overall ENERGY-ONLY efficiency is doubtful, and I am afraid that it could be negative overall. AND this stuff will STILL AFFECT THE ENVIRONMENT, by emiting CO2 (even if considered neutral theoretically) and other noxious gases, spew out dangerous microparticles (because it will be mixed with petroleum and maybe even intrinsically), blacken historic buildings, etc. I read an article the other day which suggested that it would be a viable commercial business plan in Belgium to go round (in vehicles) to pick-up all the oil that is used by restaurants and homes to make french fries and other fried foods (nearly all homes here have a cooker for animal/vegetable fat/oil and throw away the oil once it is too soiled). Presumably they did not factor in the environmental impact of picking-up the stuff or transporting the stuff and focused on the money value.

Nevertheless, I am in favour of giving a shot to all progressive options, and it's pretty clear that until we have a properly totally or quasi-local/autonomous energy production solution worked out, multiple solutions will have to be used in parallel.

Solar Hydro

varjsa-9

15th July 2006, 21:37

Interesting point of view here too: :nod:
(http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/27gwwarming.html)
JONATHAN G. KOOMEY: A typical home in the South would use about 4,000 kilowatt hours for air conditioning. If we convert that to carbon emitted, we get about 800 kilograms of carbon emitted per year for a central air conditioner. And that's about 1,800 pounds, which is more than the weight of a small car like a Toyota Corolla.
NARRATOR: Since each pound of carbon entering the atmosphere combines with oxygen to form nearly four pounds of carbon dioxide, America's contribution to greenhouse gas build-up is even more striking.
Taking a shower each morning produces 550 pounds of CO2 in a year. Using a computer 40 hours a week produces 600 pounds of CO2. Lighting an average house for a year emits 2,000 pounds. Lighting an large office building not surprisingly produces much more, 2.5 million pounds of CO2.
And about one third of all American greenhouse emissions come from automobiles.
JONATHAN G. KOOMEY: People drive, on average, about 12,000 miles per year, and a typical new car gets roughly 28 miles per gallon. That means that you will use about 430 gallons per year. And so over the course of a year, the person driving this new car will emit roughly 2,200 pounds of carbon per year. That's roughly the weight of the car itself. Now, if you have an SUV, which only gets 14 miles per gallon, you're emitting 4,400 pounds per year, essentially the same as having two cars on the road instead of one.

Webster

15th July 2006, 21:42

Well, I like the electric idea the most, if the electricity can be generated cleanly.

Webster

15th July 2006, 22:07

Here's another cool electric car;it's the instantaneous torque that's so appealing.

t1ger

15th July 2006, 22:14

Hi Solar,

When I first stumbled across you online (which I think was when I started with the OLFSL) I did notice your screen name and realised what it meant. I did not, however, realise the significance that this plays in your life. You clearly have reasearched and understand the things you are saying. I now feel a bit stupid as I am clearly nowhere near you on these counts. I appreciate that my ideas and thoughts on this are not based on anything other than that I hear from others and on the news and so can not be taken as anything like scientific. I don't normally join in on conversations like this, because I don't fully know what I am talking about. The main point I was making (which is entirely my own) is this:

Whatever we (the human race) do, it will have consequences. I don't know what these consequences are.

I personally do not like to give my opinion on anything unless I know the whole story, ie both sides, and understand them. This debate has too many unknown factors because of the above statement. I would love to make the planet last longer - but I do not (and will never) know for sure which option is the best, therefore I go along with the majority most of the time.

I appreciate your responce and find it very interesting. Some questions though:

1. Does the "electrolyse seawater" process comsume water?
2. If it does, is water not a finite resource to us, and if we use it all (as you say) we are dead anyway?
3. What are the catastrophic emmisions from house/building heating? How come I have not heard about this?
EDIT: sorry - just seen the answer to (3) from FienDi! Houses in the UK are generally not AirConditioned so we probably don't have this problem.

Good luck and speak to you soon.

Tim

ps at the moment there is a good chance I will see you in Event 6 as I am only a few places in front of you!:)

varjsa-9

15th July 2006, 23:56

the answer to (3) from FienDi! Houses in the UK are generally not AirConditioned so we probably don't have this problem.

Well I don't think the air conditioning is the only issue. I still live in believe than in UK most electricity is produced with coal plants - which will unavoidably create CO2. I'll check about this, for this knowledge is from my school days (many years ago) :)

-edit--
Looks like I was still in year 1990 :) Here:

* gas – 39.93% (0.05% in 1990)
* coal – 33.08% (67.22% in 1990)
* nuclear – 19.26% (18.97% in 1990)
* renewables – 3.55% (0% in 1990)
* hydroelectric – 1.10% (2.55% in 1990)
* imports – 1.96% (3.85% in 1990)
* oil – 1.12% (6.82% in 1990)

But coal is still equal with gas.. ;)

Blackout

16th July 2006, 03:36

(lots of text)

Good post, my thoughts and ideas excatly. If I could put it to english like that :thumb: I have few years to learn so... :D

1. Does the "electrolyse seawater" process comsume water?

3. What are the catastrophic emmisions from house/building heating? How come I have not heard about this?

1. I think not, because you release the hydrogen from the water. Im not any good in chemistry but you brake the H2O, and have the H, it comes out as a gas so you need to keep it in very cold to make it liguid (totally irrelevant point but heey). Onether thing what I can think is that when hydrogen is burnt, converted to energy, in the cells it's combined with oxygen, and it comes out as water out of your exhaust pipe. Soooo, I think there isn't much lost.
3. They are made when producing the energy, but I think you figured it out? And those numbers FienDi posted are guite horrible, lots of CO2 :/

Don't buy SUV, they don't save your children.

Solar Hydro

16th July 2006, 12:34

(Emissions from house/building heating are catastrophic throughout the northern hemisphere with very little by way of filtering not to mention catalytic conversion. This needs to be addressed as a matter of priority equal to cars and trucks but does not seem to be on the agenda of polcy-makers)

I referred to actual emissions directly from home/building heating systems. Obviously the way in which electricity is generated (which is used also for airco) is also a major issue (USA and China are using coal for a very large proportion).

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

21st July 2006, 15:41

The plug-in hacks for the Prius are really becoming available in September (cost over €10.000), but perhaps I should rather get this:

http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1

But: "We will not sell a Tesla Roadster to anyone outside of the continental US."

bozo

21st July 2006, 18:34

The Tesla looks very interesting. They've done well to get 250 miles per charge, if that turns out to be valid.

Within the FAQs they do state "Tesla Motors is an American car company with a UK subsidiary". It's not clear if they're referring to Lotus as a 'subsidiary' (which obviously is not correct), or whether they do have a subsidiary that may sell the cars this side of the pond.

I suspect it won't be cheap, but it's definitely a step in the right direction. If only a big manufacturer was bold enough to make a mass produced version of this type of car, concentrating more on efficiency rather than the sporting credentials that Tesla are plugging.

jspec

22nd July 2006, 00:12

I would really wanna see a VIP-styled black Prius that would be badass :)

Solar Hydro

22nd July 2006, 16:56

The Tesla will cost between $80.000 and $120.000 depending on model.
I still want to get proper wheels for my black Prius; haven't gotten round to it.

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

30th July 2006, 19:17

17th refuel on the Prius today.

After having traveled 900 kilometres on this fuel tank, I added 42,5 liters (probably overpumped a bit again to reach a round number).

This was after A LOT of motorway driving (my usual commute, plus driving to the Belgian coast in a heatwave, some driving around there at 2x airco, and driving back in hot weather and a couple of thundershowers; I used cruise control almost constantly on the motorway in both directions, set at 121km/h).

I stopped by my office on the way back to purge my e-mails, with the Prius meter standing at 4.5 (which surprised me at 873km into the tank), but then I took my usual fuel economy killer motorway back home and I pitted early for a petrol station right after the motorway because I don't want to refuel early in the morning tomorrow on my way to an early meeting. The Prius meter was showing 4.6 again...

The Texaco price was €1.459/l (probably the most expensive yet, they have a temporary monopoly as the Q8 station across the road is being rebuilt).

The analysis of this fuel tank is as follows:

4.722 liters per 100km (Prius meter showed 4.6 = big difference especially since Prius meter was at 4.5 only 27 km earlier, admittedly 27km of the bad motorway stretch).

Converted to other measurements, this means:
49.81 MPG USA
59.82 MPG Imperial

Solar Hydro

P.S. I uploaded a few new pics, including a Prius pic, and a couple of exclusive beer pics, on:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/solar_hydro/

Blackout

19th August 2006, 05:42

This picture is for Mr Hydro, the most friendliest (and slowest I suppose :D) safety car ever, picture taken by me myself :tilt:

Solar Hydro

19th August 2006, 13:10

Thanks Blackout. Was this from the event in Helsinki where Trulli drove the Toyota F1? (I referred to it on chatterbox).

Solar Hydro

Blackout

19th August 2006, 13:38

Yep :)

RevengeR

23rd August 2006, 10:04

awesome fuel consumption dude ;) btw, u wont save the enviroment with that till there r ppl like me :D

'96 E420 benz (RIP)

who counts the refuelling? not me hah. i usually added 75 liters each time. often or less, it was enuff for around 400kms (run for ur calculator, and do some maths hah) no matter how much i drove in city, or on highways. the sound of the engine made me floor it every time i got green.. dad totalled it a year ago, R.I.P:(

smidge

23rd August 2006, 11:12

Has anyone seen the video "who killed the electric car?" I have seen the trailer and a sort of interview with its director and found it pretty interesting. After some research I am really looking looking forward to see fully electric cars in the future:smileypul

btw I am expecting a pb on my car's consuption, I've done over 600km and the fuel light still isn't on:tilt: proud of myself lol.

Solar Hydro

25th August 2006, 18:50

18th refuel on the Prius today.

I also went for the first maintenance (I reached 15000+ km on the counter, which is the trigger for the first servicing).

The maintenance was completely free of charge (I did not even have to pay for materials like engine oil or windshield wiper fluid). They also did the preventive recall job on the steering column, swapped the tyres around, fixed a rattling noise I had complained about, and dealt with a scratch on the hood... all for free, which is nice...

On the downside, my 'EV mode' button (manual forced all-electric) doesn't work anymore !!! I already called the garage and they invited me go back any day next week to get it fixed. The car does go into all-electric mode, I just can't force it manually into that mode, so it's now like the Prii sold in the USA, which don't have the manual 'EV mode' button.

After having traveled 926 kilometres on this fuel tank - this may be my best - (of which about 10km, done by the garage presumably to deal with my rattling noise), I added 43,2 liters (I overpumped less than usual).

The Q8 price was €1.26/l (a new fully automated petrol station, which was clearly cheaper than the Texaco across the road).

The analysis of this fuel tank is as follows:

4.665 liters per 100km (Prius meter showed 4.7, I had 4.6 when I left it with the garage and they managed to take it to 4.7 by driving 10km!).

Converted to other measurements, this means:
50.42 MPG USA
60.55 MPG Imperial

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

28th August 2006, 12:01

Went back to garage today; they fixed the 'EV mode' button in 5 min.
A connector was loose inside the dashboard.

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

29th September 2006, 11:27

Quick info for 18th and 19th refuel stats on the Prius.

18th (this was the tank where my EV mode button was broken for a while):
913km, added 45.0 liters (yes, the tank capacity is 45l)
4.928 l/100 km calculated, 4,7 l/100km on Prius meter.

19th:
891km, added 43.24 liters
4.85 l/100km, 4,7 l/100km on Prius meter.

Solar Hydro

squidhead

1st October 2006, 16:34

Wow...you really are obsessed with this economy thing... I guess I will never understand you...
driving e36 328 coupe, loving it, wanting more power...

RudiTurbo

5th October 2006, 21:27

Damn sucks this economy stuff, my mom drives the Peugeot 307 with 6.3 l per 100km's and after some driving by me, the average always goes above 7.0 , I just cant help it :D

Solar Hydro

23rd October 2006, 10:46

20th refuel on the Prius:

885km, added 43.1 liters

4.87 l/100km calculated.
4,7 l/100km on Prius meter (but it was on 4.8 minutes before I refueled).

jamesrowe

25th October 2006, 09:23

You do alot of millage in your prius :) (sorry kilometorage haha)
I dont think i would buy one for myself, dont like the looks of them to much.

Solar Hydro

7th November 2006, 11:58

jsi

9th November 2006, 01:16

Haha, nice fuel economy...:thumb:

And now for a total contrast... I get 15 to 16l/100km at best with my big ass GMC truck. But it weighs 2.5 tons, has a 4.8liter V8 with 285hp/300ft torque (405Nm), and can tow 4 tons easily. A full tank is 100 liters. And I got the smallest engine for that model.:pillepall I use it to tow the racecar trailer once in a while and drive to work everyday. It also comes in REALLY handy for other errands. I'd feel guilty for burning up all that gas, but i only drive it 30-35km per day, so it's not so bad i guess...:D

Tweaker

9th November 2006, 01:28

21st refuel on the Prius:

It's getting colder, so fuel consumption is rising again.

837km, added 43.01 liters (I overpumped, some will evaporate)

5.13 l/100km calculated.
4,9 l/100km on Prius meter

Solar Hydro
wth!!! 21st refuel!! Man Solar, if you've documented every single part of this car's refuelling and all that other cool stuff, you should have a website :D

21st refuel is damn good for owning the car... for what.... more than a year?!?!? Geebuzzz. Any dents or scratches along the way?? :)

Btoryo

9th November 2006, 01:28

Did you change the rims? It looks nicer with the factory ones. BTW nice car. My mom drives a Brabus CV8 and it's useless when it comes to gas milage.

Solar Hydro

9th November 2006, 22:10

Hello, and thanks for the comments,

This thread was triggered by Bismarck who asked for 'real world data, not brochure info on the Prius' (see start of this thread).

I reported it for him, and it's only 5 min effort a shot to do that reporting, so I kept on doing it after every refuel (I stopped converting l/100km to other measurements, but there are webpages that do that if you need it).

Prius is now 1 years and 2 1/2 months old. I have around 19500km on the counter.

I never got round to changing the rims, I decided against the plug-in hack for the time being (extra battery lifetime - 3500 cycles guaranteed - looks too scary, although I may be wrong about that), the car remains dent-free, I had a bit of a scratch across the hood (strange one) which my garage pretty much massaged away for free (all maintenance is free for 5 years, including materials, I didn't even pay for the windshield fluid etc.).

Last week, I got an an interesting alpha-test device installed (non-prius specific) that I'll tell you about later if/once I get it to work... :smileypul

To install that thing, they took my car apart (including dozens of dashboard and airbag elements, the right-side seat, door panels, etc.), and now I have 2 rattling noises, one in the dashboard speaker (again) and another I have yet to fully identify. I'll try to get the device working, and then go and haunt them about the rattling noises (I told them in advance that I'd be back if it caused rattles - I HATE rattles).

Solar Hydro

AtomAnt

9th November 2006, 22:32

Could your dislike of rattles come from a bad childhood experience? :scratchch

Keep us posted on the "Secret Weapon" you had installed. I did have a couple of questions,
1) How does your baby handle in the snow?
2) Any noticable difference in extreme cold?

Keep saving the enviroment Solar :thumb:

Ant

p.s. I typed this with one hand to conserve 50% energy.

Blackout

10th November 2006, 11:23

Err...do they have such extreme conditions in Belgium? I doubt :smileypul

Solar Hydro

10th November 2006, 20:27

The Prius has ABS (anti brake lock) and ESP (anti wheel spin essentially).

The ABS/ESP is very sensitive, it even switches on when there is no snow (I know this because a yellow light flashes on the dash and the brakes feel weird then) on a particular bump in the road that you have to take while braking hard down to 30km/h and turning nearly 90° to the left at the same time.

We had 4-5cm of snow a few days last Winter; temps never below -8° centigrade or so. Needless to say, I ran some experiments.

I slammed the brakes in the snow in my street, and I accelerated hard in the snow as well, and basically it doesn't do much due to the ABS/ESP. All in all, that's far less fun than my previous car in which I used to do handbrake turns in the snow around the business park where my office is.

I have also driven 65-70 km/h in the snow on the motorway in heavy traffic at night, I was pretty much the fastest car on the left lane, passing numerous 4x4 SUVs. I have a movie taken with my phone while driving to prove it if needed :really:.

Solar Hydro

Blackout

10th November 2006, 21:02

Most 4x4 drivers suck anyway, the car choise obviously shows how brave they are...wussies that is :D

russraine

11th November 2006, 00:51

Holding a mobile phone whilst driving is illegal over here. Infact, somone was prosecuted for eating a chocolate bar whilst driving over here. Seems crap, that people are still allowed to smoke and drive though, inconsistant rules, grrrrr.

Solar Hydro

11th November 2006, 12:05

Same rule here...

Sol

jsi

12th November 2006, 04:27

I have also driven 65-70 km/h in the snow on the motorway in heavy traffic at night, I was pretty much the fastest car on the left lane, passing numerous 4x4 SUVs. I have a movie taken with my phone while driving to prove it if needed :really:.

Solar Hydro

Hehe, around here at 65-70 km/h on a motorway, you'd get passed and waved at by every grandma on the road. With 5 cm of snow, people barely slow down in Canada. Right Ant? Of course people a "little" more used to it here, 90% of cars run snow tires and the roads are cleaned/salted (not for 4-5cm of snow though) very quickly. I'm sure it's similar in other nordic countrys like Finland, Sweden etc.

Often, visibility is what really limits my speed driving in a snow storm. Gotta be able to stop in the distance you can see ahead...:D

Blackout

12th November 2006, 07:42

Of course people a "little" more used to it here, 90% of cars run snow tires and the roads are cleaned/salted (not for 4-5cm of snow though) very quickly. I'm sure it's similar in other nordic countrys like Finland, Sweden etc.

Yep, thats how it is. Althou the law here says you must have winter tires on your car in the 3 midwinter months, so everyone has because you just wouldn't get anywhere without them. And about the winter speeds, well, I did 120 the other day on when overtaking trucks on the fast lane, and it's winter :x:shy::tilt: So it's really about how the road is like. Oh and the car was a nice Toyota Avensis, nice car's these Toyotas :)

AtomAnt

12th November 2006, 08:49

Hehe, around here at 65-70 km/h on a motorway, you'd get passed and waved at by every grandma on the road. With 5 cm of snow, people barely slow down in Canada. Right Ant?

So true JSI ...so true.

I just wondered how the electric steering handles snow and ice, also if the battery suffers in cold temps like here in Canada...-28 C for 5 or 6 days in a row say.

Find the rattle yet Solar? :Kick_Can_

Solar Hydro

27th November 2006, 11:15

22nd refuel on the Prius:

837km, added 43.2 liters

5.16 l/100km calculated.
5,0 l/100km on Prius meter

Solar Hydro

Bismarck

13th December 2006, 14:12

Hi Solar Hydro :)

You still write your experiences here. Deep respect for this kind of consitancy.
Looks like you are still satisfied with your car.
Some time a go i saw a Prius passing me slowly without any noise and i thought of you. :thumb:

By the way maybe you are interested in the service, that is freely offered at: http://www.spritmonitor.de/en/ . There you can enter the amout of fuel you buy and the kilometers u drive and it automatically calculates your average. And the best thing is, you can compare your data with other guys with the same car. There are lots of Prius-owners in the database, as far as i have seen. You can even embed little images in your signature or your website, that show your actual average fuel usage. :)

See you.

Solar Hydro

13th December 2006, 22:04

My alpha test device is now operational (see my posting on this thread of 10 Nov 2006). E-mail or pm me for an online real-time animated demo ;-) or to purchase? ;-)

(requests are not likely to be satisfied immediately, as I need to build in some security, and I will be selective, applicants are likely to be disappointed when I'll reject them).

Lifting a little of the veil, you can check http://www.flickr.com/photos/solar_hydro/ (click on 'all sizes' above the pictures to get decent resolution)

Solar Hydro

P.S. Thanks for the kind words Bismarck, I checked the fuel consumption comparison site, I have seen better ones for the real freaks ;-) I could match the real freaks if I didn't drive on the motorway most of the time...

S14 DRIFT

13th December 2006, 22:24

What a hideous looking car...

What car do you have again?

Solar Hydro

13th December 2006, 22:40

Actually, the tracker shuts down when I drive in EV mode too long, so I have the worst car for this... (except that ALL CARS will be like mine & then some soon).

Sol

Solar Hydro

15th December 2006, 21:15

23rd refuel on the Prius:

777km, added only 41.5 liters
(cold weather changes when it looks like you need to refuel)

5.39 l/100km calculated (one of my worst tanks as I recall it, some weird driving induced by the installation of the tracker device may explain it, as well as a bad traffic jam).

5,2 l/100km on Prius meter

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

14th January 2007, 10:12

Finally a post on this thread that is relevant to OLFSL!

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/204526/hybrid_westfield_prepares_to_clean_up.html

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

14th January 2007, 10:22

24th refuel on the Prius:

753km, added only 43.1 liters
(cold weather)

5.723 l/100km calculated (this is by far my worst tank since I have the car, I can't really explain why, other than the comparatively cold weather, only driving to my office and short trips, but the weather was not as cold as last winter).

5,4 l/100km on Prius meter (one of the largest discrepancies between meter and my measurement also).

It's been a long time since I checked air in the tyres, I'll do that on next refuel.

Solar Hydro

avellis

14th January 2007, 13:27

Finally a post on this thread that is relevant to OLFSL!

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/204526/hybrid_westfield_prepares_to_clean_up.html

OMG!!!111one

I'd like to see how they can keep the weight down and the dimensions pretty much intact, with the added requirements of the hybrid powerplant.

Solar Hydro

14th January 2007, 14:00

OMG!!!111one

I'd like to see how they can keep the weight down and the dimensions pretty much intact, with the added requirements of the hybrid powerplant.

Looking at my Prius, I don't expect too many problems. The 2 engines fit in a comparatively smallish compartment, and the battery (invisible behind the seats) is maybe 3x a normal car battery (I wish it were bigger).

A proper hybrid powertrain and electronics are less obvious to fit in the Seven.

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

23rd January 2007, 18:59

25th refuel on the Prius:

802 km, added 45,72 liters! (tank capacity is 45) I knew I was near empty.
(it was 1° celcius outside, pump choked constantly, maybe that affected it, or maybe the petrol station owner is a criminal)

5.700 l/100km calculated (again among my very worst tanks)
5,3 l/100km on Prius meter (again big discrepancy with calc)

I pumped my tyres up to 2.8 bar (they were down to 2.2 rear, 2.3 front). Yep, I pump them up just when it's gonna snow... :pillepall

As a matter of fact, I detected some uncalled for engine revving upon exiting EV mode (already since it became cold this winter; or maybe even since the car servicing in September; I can't recall this phenomenon occurring last year). If I have another bad tank I'm going to stop by the garage to ask them to look into this.

Solar Hydro

Modern.Messiah

23rd January 2007, 21:58

VW Golf Diesel does better MPG than prius in real life.. figures they quote are rather far fetched!

plus is a damn horrible "car"... well said hyper.. electric motors are for wheelchairs hehe.

car = engine!

Solar Hydro

23rd January 2007, 22:54

VW Golf Diesel does better MPG than prius in real life.. figures they quote are rather far fetched!

The point of this thread, developed at the request of Bismarck, is to show my Prius' real-world fuel consumption performance (specifically NOT to rely on 'the figures they quote'). I am a continental European, driving mostly 32 km trips back and forth to my office, most of which on motorways at the allowed speed of 120 km/h.

I have no idea whether the Golf Diesel real-world fuel consumption stats would be equivalent or better than the Prius, but allow me to comment (as a former VW car owner):

1) My previous car (VW Polo 1.6, running 95 Octane) never matched ANY tank on my Prius (also 95 Octane) in terms of consumption - and the Prius winter performance is more than a full litre per 100km worse than the summer performance (you can see earlier in this thread that I have many Prius tanks at 4.7 and 4.6l/100 km).

2) 'MPG performance' is not the same as CO2 and NOx exhaust, not to mention diesel microparticles that kill and make buildings black. It it uncontestable that the Prius is far superior to current mainstream diesel cars on those parameters, which, in my view, are the parameters that really count. Buying a Prius to save money is marginal even at current petroleum prices, and probably negative for me given that I don't drive that much; I passed 22.222km today. Can/should we have (bio)diesel-electric hybrids that do better than the Prius on all criteria? YES, I would hope so. Manufacturers have announced these cars but have not delivered. Is that the best solution going forward? NO. Should we have some in the meantime? Probably YES. I'll debate the objective merits of biodiesel, I am very very sceptical.

3) I have stated above that I certainly didn't buy the Prius for its looks ;-)

4) If available and vaguely affordable (doesn't have to be economically rational) I'll take delivery of a Tesla Roadster or Phoenix Motorcars all-electric plug-in car any day (I seriously considered Prius plug-in hacks but wasn't convinced - until now). Oh, and I should have offered money for the BMW HL7 in the dot.com boom times (1999) when I had the money to get one and put it in a museum. Note that, even today, that car cannot actually be bought and BMW are now shopping it around (i.e. giving them away) to politicians. The scary part is that it runs on hydro made from petroleum very inefficiently, and guzzles the hydro like mad. You may also wish to check out the Honda FCX (real fuel-cell hydro), you can lease one for $500.000/year. I like Honda, I hope they get this right eventually, and I'll switch as soon as they do... or anything else that turns out to be vastly superior to the Prius... on whatever fuel that can credibly assert its enviro-credibility, real availability and sustainability and not be hype (also stated previously in this thread). I am not a Toyota fanboy, but I do have the Solar Hydro nickname since 1995 for a reason ;-)

Solar Hydro

P.S. Following-up on a previous thread where FienDi went down to the hard (published by manufacturer) numbers, I checked the VW website for the most economical VW Golf Diesel they sell. Advertised VW stats are: Consumption EU city 6.4, EU average 5.0, EU high road (whatever that means, speed not specified) 4.3 ; no info on temperatures at which they measured it. CO2/g/km 135 (Prius 104), NOx exhaust not mentioned, diesel particles not mentioned. The 95 octane smallest VW Golf is at 166 CO2/g/km.

P.S.2. All of us that do work that can be done from home or in a nearby location that can be reached by walking/cycling should do that immediately; I include myself in that and admit that I haven't.

P.S.3. I do downclock the processor and video card on my gaming pc on environmental grounds while I keep on editing text-only posts on messageboards.

Julppu

24th January 2007, 05:03

It's always easier and cheaper for companies to produce stuff that uses old school fuels (and technologies for that matter). From what I've gathered in 27 or so years, nothing will ever truly change until something horrible and irreversible happens suddenly. I believe oil will be pretty much used up until substitutes can realistically take over.

Oh, and when substitutes are mainstream, it's better not to think that it's all for clean environment. No way. Nature is still suppressed by human, as it has been for few centuries. That really sucks. Money can live in clean and healthy environment, and care not for others.

(Sorry about the hijack, but I just got to work and am still *bit* tired. :tired: How tired would I be if I've taken a bus instead of cycle..)

horrgakx

25th January 2007, 10:52

Hmm... very ... "economical" :smileypul

You really want something like I've got;
http://www.mivec.co.uk/pictures/hiro/side_view_marchon_hiro.jpg

http://www.mivec.co.uk/evo/pictures/ode_to_evo/images/108-0877_IMG.jpg

And the Caterham is hired for track use;
http://www.mivec.co.uk/evo/pictures/2004-7-17_croft/images/IMG_0969.jpg

Dave

Hollywood

26th January 2007, 15:38

What a hideous looking car...

I agree. Not only that, its a horrid car in terms of just driving and the interior is nearly as bad. Had one as a rental while I was waiting for my GTO to come in.

The hybrid system is pretty nice and worked well. But otherwise, no idea why anyone would buy a Prius at all. Sorta like why in the world did anyone buy a Pontiac Aztec...

Solar Hydro

10th February 2007, 12:33

26th refuel on the Prius:

803 km, added 42.4 liters.

5.28l l/100km calculated (in cold weather, we had snow)
5,2 l/100km on Prius meter (low discrepancy between calc and meter)

This brings me back to my winter average consumption (previous tank was clearly anomalous). Pumping up the tyres may also have helped.

A bit of bad news, a rock hit my windshield while driving at 100 km/h (it scared me to death because I saw it coming in from afar). Damage is limited, just a chip in the glass, but it's exactly in my constant visual range. I guess I'll try Carglass repair; didn't yet check my insurance as to whether this is covered.

Solar Hydro

P.S. I have black leather seats matching the black and dark grey interior, which is far better than the Prii with those grey/brown cloth interiors which are indeed horrible.

t1ger

10th February 2007, 21:53

Hi Solar,

Bad luck with the rock :( !

I am seriously considering such a car for my next company car (which is due to be replace March 2008).

If you don't mind, Solar, I would like to pick your brains over the next 8 - 10 months (slowly) about the car to see if it would work for us (incl. family). My first question is: do you know what it is like for packing a holiday into (ie for 2 adults and a 4 year old kid)? How practical is it as a family car, I guess is another way to phrase it?

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated, and you do not have to respond quickly (or at all!:) )

Thanks

Tim

Solar Hydro

11th February 2007, 14:26

Hello Tim,

The Prius is fine to carry 4 people comfortably; I have very occasionally had 3 people in the back, which is a bit tight but feasible. I have driven 300km without stopping; it works.

As regards the boot, whilst I have never 'packed for holiday', see:
http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=98284955&size=l

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

16th March 2007, 21:47

27th refuel on the Prius:

783km, added 41.5 liters.

5.30l l/100km calculated (rather cold weather, refueled early on motorway (I saw biodiesel advertised for the first time there) to ensure that my passengers to the airport wouldn't miss their plane)

5.1 l/100km on Prius meter

28th refuel on the Prius:

845km, added 41.5 liters

4.91l/100 km calculated (unusually warm winter weather, a few unusual destinations, and special smog conditions restricting motorway speed to 90km/h (which I didn't realise and didn't respect on the way out, but did on the way back) on the last day may have helped towards the end).

4.8l/100 km on the Prius meter (dropped from 4.9 at the end, so pretty accurate this time).

Note: I started the next tank yesterday about 6km from home, then today I drove to my office, and after a while on motorway at 120km/h I realised that (contrary to media reports) the temporary 90km/h motorway speed limit for smog was still in effect. I (vaguely) respected it 10km into the trip to my office, went to get a sandwich where I usually get one, and then to my office, and I had a nice 3,9 l/100km avg upon arrival at my office. This demonstrates a HUGE difference between driving 120km/h versus 90km/h, and illustrates why the americans with lower speed limits and California weather get better Prius results. Tonight, I left the office (nasty uphill acceleration on motorway ramp made me lose several points immediately), and drove the normal 120 km/h, and I even had to put on the heat as it was getting cold. By the time I got home I was at 4.3l/100 avg (just on the edge of 4.4). We'll see what it will be at the end of this tank. Snow is forecast for this weekend, and next week I'll be driving far to Germany, same trip as I did last year at the same time.

Solar Hydro

S0ul

17th March 2007, 14:06

I wonder if you have ever seen the south park episode about the prius and hybrid cars....

Solar Hydro

17th March 2007, 14:44

I have not. Title, download location plz!

Solar Hydro

JamesK

17th March 2007, 14:52

Solar Hydro

17th March 2007, 15:16

There are environmentally sound substitutes, Hybrids aren't though. Check the article HERE (http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188) ;)

This Prius vs Hummer article has been substantially debunked; check priuschat.com if you care.

Solar Hydro

smidge

18th March 2007, 13:50

Solar can you do that:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-355293716120963811

:D

JamesK

18th March 2007, 19:40

This Prius vs Hummer article has been substantially debunked; check priuschat.com if you care.Oh yes, its full of holes, but as the driver of a 100% recycled car I recon the underlying theory is sound :)

Solar Hydro

18th March 2007, 20:37

Solar can you do that:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-355293716120963811

:D

I believe that the 2006 Prius (I have the 2005) was one of the first commercial cars with an automated parallel parking system, but I doubt that it'd be able to do that. Somehow I think this movie is rather a complaint about being stuck, than parking heroics.

Solar Hydro

russraine

19th March 2007, 10:32

Just out of interest Solar, do you keep track of the other things which can affect the fuel efficiency, such as, tyre pressure, windows open/closed, air intake/conditioning etc. From what I've read, over a month of use, they can change figures quite a deal.

Solar Hydro

19th March 2007, 21:08

Airco apparently induces a 3% penalty, and I usually run it (actually I admit that I only found how to really turn it off in 2007! and then the windshield fogs up instantly; maybe better in the upcoming summer).

Tyre pressure has a manifest effect; it is listed in my previous posts.

I almost never drive with open windows, so I have no idea; the window drag effect was debunked by mythbusters tv show I believe.

Solar Hydro (still at 4.6 after the smog restrictions day, but driving 300+ km to Germany tomorrow)

JamesK

19th March 2007, 21:19

Audi list windows being open as costing 5% reduction in MPG and aircon as 6%; I was watching the Top Gear earlier where they got 40mpg from a 6 litre V8 twin-turbo diesel ...

Solar Hydro

23rd March 2007, 20:57

I wonder if you have ever seen the south park episode about the prius and hybrid cars....

I have now seen the South Park episode (thanks to an OLFSL member).
21 min to make 1 point. Substantially un-funny IMHO. (doesn't Kenny die anymore in South Park?)

Solar Hydro

russraine

24th March 2007, 16:32

Hmmm...... I can't see how the drag effect can be disproven. I think maybe it's not as bad as made out originally perhaps?

Solar Hydro

8th April 2007, 16:24

29th refuel on the Prius:

766km, added 41 liters (5.35 l/100 km measured; 5.0 on Prius meter)

30th refuel on the Prius:

862km, added 42.1 liters (4.88 l/100 km measured; 4.6 on Prius meter)

(I drove to Amsterdam and back on Friday, quite a few stretches speed limited to 100 km/h in The Netherlands where I could see I was on 4.2/4.4 consistently on the Prius meter using cruise control, and picked up % some back in Belgium at 120 km/h).

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

2nd May 2007, 22:44

31st refuel on the Prius

4.5l/100km on the Prius meter (it came down to 4.5 on the last trip of the tank, so I knew it was going to be high 4.5s at best).

My own measurement is as follows:

892km driven, added 42.01 liters (priced at €1.397/l) = 4.71l/100km.

Own measurement converted to USA Galllon (MPG) = 49.94
Own measurement converted to Imperial gallon = 59.97

Solar Hydro

AtomAnt

3rd May 2007, 05:07

We never let Him (Solar) out of his box. When set upon you, you will know you have been dealt with.

Reallly, he's a nice guy.......but he does a job. Does it Well.

Kudo

Gas=1:29LTR CAN......

I walk....No carbon FootPrint

TysCaargh

3rd May 2007, 16:43

Gas=1:29LTR CAN......

I walk....No carbon FootPrint

Well, actually, when you breathe, in your 'exhaust' gasses there is quite a bit of CO².
...but I would not call hired killers green activists, so breathe on!

Solar Hydro

4th June 2007, 21:42

32nd refuel on the Prius

4.6l/100km on the Prius meter, felt like one of my better tanks all along.

My own measurement is as follows:

923km driven (maybe my record distance), added 42.8 liters = 4.637l/100km.

Own measurement converted to USA Galllon (MPG) = 50.37
Own measurement converted to Imperial Gallon = 60.92

Solar Hydro

P.S. Note the difference between Prius meter and my own measurement on this tank vs previous tank.

russraine

4th June 2007, 23:20

Hey Solar - just wondered - if you could go back in time, would you still buy the Prius or not?

Solar Hydro

5th June 2007, 09:52

Definitely.
Note that fuel expense was not my primary motivation; progress towards respect for the environment and 'cool toys' was.

Solar Hydro

james12s

5th June 2007, 09:59

im not joking the taxi that takes me to school gets more fuel efficency out of 1.9 turbo diesel skoda octavia esates, and they are cheaper,safe,more reliably, more useful, faster, better looking and i could go on, dont get me wrong but you are a total prick for buying a prius if you want fuel econemy buy a lupo deisel that actualy does 75mpg and thats not what the brocher says thats what it actually does, tell you pricky prius i have a huge sledge hammer waiting for it

CSU1

5th June 2007, 10:01

james12s

5th June 2007, 10:06

plus **** the environment, global warming is natural, ok fuel efficency is a good thing but its not worth shit if it cant be used as with the prius, hydrogen power is good, the honda hybrid that is a petrol car with an eletric engine added is good, but the prius is trying to be a standard car with an electric motor and a petrol motor as an extra is BAD no let me get that right it is ****ING GOD AWFUL AND DESERVES TO BE ****ED OF OUT OF THE MOTORING WORLD!!!!!!!!!

danowat

5th June 2007, 10:07

sounds like the aspergers kicking in (good excuse for acting like an arse IMO)

james12s

5th June 2007, 10:07

yes someone has been stupid enough to buy a prius, i tryed to keep out but i could resist it, i absolutly detest the prius as you can tell

james12s

5th June 2007, 10:08

the aspergers bit is the obsesion about hating them, the actual hating is me well the car really if you get what i mean

tristancliffe

5th June 2007, 10:19

To be fair, the Polo option would almost certainly be better than the Prius for the environment. Whilst perhaps the Prius uses less fuel, the total energy required to make, run and dispose of one over the Polo makes them a net bad thing.

On the same grounds, a lot of (simple) 4x4s are also better for the environment. So I say electric, hybrid and 'green' cars should be heavily taxed for damaging the planet.

danowat

5th June 2007, 10:21

Motorbikes FTW!!!!!11111!!!!!111

james12s

5th June 2007, 10:21

james12s

5th June 2007, 10:22

yeah a moped is a better option that a prius and you get 90-120 mpg easily

james12s

5th June 2007, 10:24

also the way priuses handel you could easily skid off the road and take out several trees which would be a disaster; lol ; lets all go rev the nuts off out engins and use as much fuel as possible

sil3ntwar

5th June 2007, 11:03

This is why kids shoudn't have sugar :tilt:

I cant say im too impressed with the prius. Get a bicycle and you wont have any fuel costs :razz: :D

james12s

5th June 2007, 11:04

thats one option and its nothing to do with sugar

Solar Hydro

5th June 2007, 12:29

Skoda Octavia 1.9 TDi:

0-100km in 11.8 sec
CO2: 138g/km
Advertised fuel consumption mixed use: 6.5 l/100km

Toyota Prius hybrid 1.5 petrol 16-valve VVT-i + electric:

0-100km in 10.9 sec
CO2: 104g/km
My own measured fuel consumption mixed use: 4.8 l/100km (advertised 4.3)

james12s

5th June 2007, 12:30

well they accelarate a damn site quicker than that and will easily do 45 mpg but average of 50-50 ok maybe about the same but i know which i would rather get

james12s

5th June 2007, 12:31

and a prius will not do 0-60 in10.9 not even down hill

smidge

9th June 2007, 22:34

Dont talk like that man, electricity rocks =)

Solar have you got any figures about price that you pay for electricity after installing the plug-in kit you were talking about a few pages back? I am just curious, having watched the conspiracy theory :Kick_Can_ documentary about ev-1, checking development progress of tesla roadster and so on, there are figures about energy efficiency, but they dont tell me much.

I wonder if you picked up any numbers about electricity bills reading prius forums

happy driving :thumb:

Solar Hydro

10th June 2007, 11:30

Dont talk like that man, electricity rocks =)

Solar have you got any figures about price that you pay for electricity after installing the plug-in kit you were talking about a few pages back?

http://priuschat.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=26951&view=findpost&p=452401

Higher up in the thread there are pictures of the plug-in installation, the next page goes on to detail problems they experienced.

Solar Hydro

smidge

10th June 2007, 15:14

Thank you, very interesting

I expected it to be cheaper. Considering fuel price in America, the guy is probably paying 2 times more than if he ran only on gasoline.

The whole point for me is to be off of foreign oil even if I have to pay more. For me it is about national security.

Payback time frame:

Pay back happens every time I plug in to the wall. I’ll remember 9/11 every time I do.

:scratchch

AtomAnt

16th June 2007, 08:36

Dam near got run over by one of these.......couldn't hear it sneaking up on me.

Solar Hydro

22nd June 2007, 15:40

33rd refuel on the Prius

929km driven, added 43,5 liters

Own calculation: 4.682 l/100km (Prius meter showed 4.5 l/100km).

Own measurement converted to USA Galllon (MPG) = 50.24
Own measurement converted to Imperial Gallon = 60.33

Solar Hydro

AtomAnt

23rd June 2007, 03:57

I bet you washed it with a natural cleaner too......or did you take it to a car wash?

Black cars look better in the shade........but they charge slower.

I Walk, but I live within 5 minutes of everything.

AAnt

Solar Hydro

23rd June 2007, 12:25

I have not washed any car I ever had, and I have no intention of ever doing so. Went to car wash 4x since I have the Prius.

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

11th July 2007, 21:52

34th refuel on the Prius

886km driven, added 41,8 liters (which is low and I even overpumped)

Own calculation: 4.717 l/100km (Prius meter showed 4.6 l/100km but had been on 4.7 for a while because... well see below...).

I got a rear tyre puncture (air pressure falling below 1 bar). I went to the garage, they took the wheel off, found a nail, pulled the nail out, and injected some 'vulcanizing' liquid in the hole made by the nail, and put the wheel back on. 10 minutes; 10 euros; I was impressed.

Solar Hydro

P.S. I passed 30.000km on the Prius counter this evening.

russraine

13th July 2007, 14:02

thing you gotta wonder now, was did you drive over the nail, or did someone hammer it in?
Have you upset any psychopaths lately Solar, apart from me I mean?

Solar Hydro

30th August 2007, 22:32

35th refuel on the Prius

876km driven, added 42,9 liters

Own calculation: 4.897 l/100km (Prius meter showed 4.8 l/100km).

36th refuel on the Prius

888km driven, added 42,0 liters

Own calculation: 4.729 l/100km (Prius meter showed 4.6 l/100km).

***

I also went for my second liftetime maintenance (the rule is once a year or every 15000km, which in my case yields nearly the same date, although I'm considering taking measures that would cause me to drive far less).

Again, I paid NOTHING for maintenance, whilst it's clear that they did the oil/filter work, rotated the tyres, put in windshield wiper fluid, painted over some scratches on the side that my dad had made, and whatever else they do at an annual maintenance.

I also asked the garage to fix the small star/crack in my windshield from the day a rock hit it; it's improved, but not a full repair. I'll have a look at my insurance policy to see if I can get a new windshield.

Solar Hydro
http://img35.picoodle.com/img/img35/9/8/18/st_aef7e02217.png

kx_mole

20th September 2007, 11:15

http://www.driverseddirect.com/game/

I think it is a Prius. (skip intro) ;)

Solar Hydro

20th September 2007, 20:20

Thanks kx_mole,

I confirm that it's a Prius, but the game is fatally flawed, because it makes an engine noise and shows exhaust fumes while the car is in reverse.

The Prius is (in my experience always) in all-electric mode when reversing. Anyway, I tend to manually force EV-mode (electric vehicle) when parking.

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

28th September 2007, 21:20

37th refuel on the Prius

902km driven, added 44,0 liters

Own calculation: 4.878 l/100km (Prius meter showed 4.6 l/100km, was on 4.5 earlier in the day)

On Tuesday, I drove 450km, fuel consumption was strangely contrasted. 4.4/4.5l/100km on the way out in the afternoon going to Amsterdam via Rotterdam. 5.7l/100km on the way back from Amsterdam via Utrecht. TomTom6 on my new phone told me to drive via Rotterdam on the way out and via Utrecht on the way back. I complied; maybe I won't in the future...

Screenshot (taken with phone) upon arrival in Amsterdam, note the number of km traveled on the fuel tank; this is to emphasize that it's over much of a tank, not a tricked snapshot.

http://flickr.com/photos/solar_hydro/1455031198/

Solar Hydro

russraine

30th September 2007, 13:25

Also just wondered if your car us typically the same weight for most of your journey's Solar? Taking a big group of American's to lunch will certainly weigh the car down enough to affect the ratio.

Stigpt

4th October 2007, 08:22

Sorry for being an ass, but.. I don't see the point of the Prius.

My dad's 8 year old Citroen Saxo Diesel averages 4.2l/100kms - and this over the last year.

My previous car (Peugeot 206 1.4Hdi) did a whopping 3.9l/100kms - when I was really paying attention (unfortunatly, the way I usually drive, it was more close to 5l/100 - but thats really pushing all the 75hp out of the engine at all times :D)

kx_mole

4th October 2007, 08:28

Yes, and my bicycle 'eats' 2 donuts / 100 km... :) I think these cars are a class smaller than the Prius, but maybe I am wrong, I really don't know the Prius size in life. :x

t1ger

4th October 2007, 13:10

Sorry for being an ass, but.. I don't see the point of the Prius.

It is not all about the MPG, it is about the emmisions; the harmful gasses to the environment and atmosphere. It does have a "normal" mpg, but:

Prius is certified as an Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (javascript:openGlossary('emission_levels.html');) (AT-PZEV), [6 (javascript:openDisclaimer('prius_emissions.html') ;)] a standard created by the California Air Resources Board (javascript:openInterstitial('http://www.arb.ca.gov');) and adopted by other states. [6 (javascript:openDisclaimer('prius_emissions.html') ;)] AT-PZEV certification means Prius has near-zero tailpipe emissions, zero evaporative emissions and a special extended warranty on emission control components. [6 (javascript:openDisclaimer('prius_emissions.html') ;)], [7 (javascript:openDisclaimer('prius_warranty.html'); )] It is one step cleaner than the previous generation's Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (javascript:openGlossary('emission_levels.html');) (SULEV) certification.

The source is here (http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/2005/prius/faq.html) (Note: The links above only work from the actual site).

Tim

tristancliffe

4th October 2007, 13:13

Doesn't the energy needed to make and destroy the car, and the emissions making the materials used make the Prius a big joke? I think I read something to that effect in Professional Engineer a few months ago (but it might have been a different publication).

I don't see the point really. It's certainly no better for the environment than a normal car once you take everything into account.

t1ger

4th October 2007, 14:37

Unless the engineering process and destruction process for the Prius is majorly different to that of a "normal" car, then the fact the the Prius gives out a fraction of the emmisions of the "normal" car, then it must gain something. Even though in the bigger picture this is not as much as if you just take the emissions of the car running into account.

Plus, how do we know that something else the Prius is doing (emmitting, causing, anything really) is not damaging something else that we have not measured or even know about yet. If we all moved NOW to a Prius, we may find that all those hybrid cars cause something else to break somewhere in the environment. (I don't know what, but you know what I mean).

Tim

t1ger

4th October 2007, 14:44

Oops, just found this. (Should have googled first, then posted) nevermind:

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario.

This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.

“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.

All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?

Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.

One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.

Source here (http://clubs.ccsu.edu/Recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188).

Who knows?!

Tim

Solar Hydro

4th October 2007, 19:57

Hello all,

A few points relating to the previous posts:

Emissions: Prius vs other car
(I have put specific comparisons with other cars that people mentioned in this thread before)

Peugeot 106 1.4 HDi (you don't seem to mention your current car):

CO2: 116g/km (pretty damn good)
Nox: 0.198g/km (there is also a 0.210g/km column below for diesel)
Particles (diesel): 0.020g/km

Toyota Prius 1.5:

CO2: 104g/km
Nox: 0.10g/km
Particles (diesel): 0

Hummer (and Jeep) vs Prius production process, battery, lifetime incl. recycling

Toyota response
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/25/AR2007042502561.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/25/AR2007042502561.html)

Priuschat discussion

http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=31938

Solar Hydro

Solar Hydro

5th October 2007, 10:50

One more link to put the Prius vs Hummer story to bed...

http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_of_science/case_studies/hummer_vs_prius.pdf

Solar Hydro

t1ger

5th October 2007, 12:23

Don't get me wrong, I *want* the Prius to be as green a car as possible, just like I want all cars to be greener than they are. I just think that (like all things that I don't actually fully understand) there will always be arguments.

I am sure there is a document which argues why the responses to the pacinst.org report are wrong and invalid and shouldn't be believed. Unless I know all the facts, and quite frankly I am never going to, I am never going to know which one I should actually believe is right.

oh dear, getting too deep now :)

/leaves conversation

Tim

ps just noticed that the Washington Post link confirms that I was right in post #198 above! hey hey, first time for everything :):thumb:

russraine

6th October 2007, 17:55

basically a car is not going to be green full stop. I think it would be better to find alternatives to cars than design new and better 'green' ones that need more energy to build in the firstlplace.

tristancliffe

6th October 2007, 18:54

Good luck finding it! Trains - crap. Buses - crap. Bicycles - slow. M'bikes - non-green. Planes - no good for shorter journeys, and not exactly green.

If you think of something, we're all ears. I'm sure it's not impossible, but it's not very likely.

russraine

6th October 2007, 21:17

Solar powered roller skates.

kx_mole

8th October 2007, 14:03

A Little OT, sorry Solar :)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=w1C44JQU7Pc&feature=dir

There are similar posts about the clean solution...(which is not exists yet)

xaotik

9th October 2007, 10:24

IMO the point is getting people to use automobiles for tasks that they are better at - simple as that. Overusing them in urban areas is pretty much pointless and in several cases ultimately slower and more costly than pedestrians or cyclists.

Machines like cars are great for covering large distances and hauling heavy things or multiple people. If people were more sensitive to prudent use of a machine powered by an internal combustion engine and serviced their machines properly so they work as they should then we wouldn't really need anything marketed as "green". However, now that we've come to what we've come it's best to actually explore alternatives in practice and not just theorise or spew concept cars here and there - at least the Prius exists.

flymike91

29th October 2007, 06:19

well at best humans can only cut greenhouse gases about ten percent with our green machines and way of life. The sad truth is that the decomposition and bodily functions of all living things on earth account for 90 or more percent of all the greenhouse gases. But hybrid vehicles are a start, maybe next is cutting down on livestock, who knows?

Solar Hydro

28th January 2008, 21:08

Subject says it all...

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/01/28/abg-first-drive-hitting-the-road-in-the-tesla-roadster/

Solar Hydro

bozo

29th January 2008, 04:53

Why oh why is the focus still on performance? With all the environmental problems that we have, why is it that even a progressive manufacturer like this still has to promote the sporting characteristics? What is so wrong about focussing on maximising the energy conservation, using narrower tyres, or using gearing that maximises efficiency within the speed limit?

GFresh

29th January 2008, 05:52

Well, assuming theres no sarcasm in your post, it's because NO-ONE wants the things you listed, they want performance.

bozo

29th January 2008, 06:05

With finite resources on this planet, that is perhaps not the best way of living. We could do so much more to ensure there is a legacy.

GFresh

29th January 2008, 06:19

Well thats all about changing people attitudes about things, which isn't going to be accomplished by a new all singing all dancing car that runs for a week from a mear fart.
People want performance, and generally don't really care about the planet. That attitude needs to change before manufacturers start to make cars with the planet FULLY in mind.

tristancliffe

29th January 2008, 08:32

With finite resources on this planet, that is perhaps not the best way of living. We could do so much more to ensure there is a legacy.

Depends if you believe the polititians (who we all know lie), or choose to look at the facts yourself. The simple thing is we are discovering more oil, coal and gas every day, and our KNOWN reserves have remained roughly constant for the last 50 years. Nuclear power is being expanded, and other decent forms of electricity are being worked on.

Unfortunately, Joe Public actually believe the polititians when they say Solar, Tidal and Wind power are green - they are not - they are just as destructive as fossil fuels IF NOT MORE SO IN THE LONG TERM.

frokki

29th January 2008, 08:41

Unfortunately, Joe Public actually believe the polititians when they say Solar, Tidal and Wind power are green - they are not - they are just as destructive as fossil fuels IF NOT MORE SO IN THE LONG TERM.How would a windmill or solar panel be destructive in the long run?

bozo

29th January 2008, 10:39

Depends if you believe the polititians (who we all know lie), or choose to look at the facts yourself. The simple thing is we are discovering more oil, coal and gas every day, and our KNOWN reserves have remained roughly constant for the last 50 years. Nuclear power is being expanded, and other decent forms of electricity are being worked on.
Don't worry, I have never believed a politician. Equally I have never believed that fossil fuels are anything but a finite resource when they are extracted at current rates. If you were in a position to strategically manage the world for the next 500 years, would you allow the population to plunder all the resources in the shortest possible time? Only a sadist would opt for that route.

I wouldn't classify nuclear as a 'decent form of electricity', but I'll leave that one for now.

Be interested to understand how geothermal heat generation, tidal power, wind power and solar heating can be so destructive. I'm always open to new thinking, but I'm not convinced by your argument yet.

Tweaker

29th January 2008, 10:48

Subject says it all...

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/01/28/abg-first-drive-hitting-the-road-in-the-tesla-roadster/

Solar Hydro
That's funny, the hills it was driving on is right in my backyard!!! :)

It is pretty wet over here at the moment, but those windy hills are like my version of The Ring, and lots of sportscars and motorcycles go up there and drive pretty fast :).

Strange though, I saw this very same Tesla on the road nearby my house about 3-4 months ago, I don't know why they are testing it now :really:

tristancliffe

29th January 2008, 11:15

How would a windmill or solar panel be destructive in the long run?

Where does the energy come from with wind power, what happens to the wind with less energy, and what implications will that have on downwind (and, potentially, upwind) habitats and environments? In order to extract a meaningful amount of energy (sufficient to play a major role in the National Grid, for example) then this will MASSIVELY disrupt air currents, and cause untold damage to habitats and environments. People keep saying the world is fragile, and that the weather hangs on a balance, but are happy to play with it anyway.

Solar - apart from the fact that the reflected light is less likely to escape (it's wavelength is altered so that, in effect, it's Greenhouse Light), solar panels have lots of nasty metals and chemicals in them, which do not degrade, and are not currently processable. In fact, I believe that 1 tonne of solar panels contains MORE nasty stuff than 1 tonne of spent nuclear rods!

Tidal - again, it's the changes to currents, even if they are merely coastal currents. What will that change do to everything else? Fish stocks? Whales? Also, to remain a little light hearted, if you extract energy from the tides, then you are also altering the Moon's orbit (albeit not by much :p)!

No, fossil fuels are not the way to keep going, even though we are certainly nowhere near 'running out'. Nuclear currently remains the cleanest fuel source, with by far the least risk. And that's just facts not opinion. What waste there is is being reduced (per tonne of fuel) annually by the works of Sellafield and equivalent organisations.

The trouble is that most people think "oooh, wind power. Must be safe and green, because it's just there", completely failing to realise the further issues that might be caused downstream.

And when it's all said and done, we want electricity (generally), and it all ends up as heat, so Greenhouse or not, the more energy we use, the quicker we cook. But instead they made up some stuff, and got the world to blame CO2, which is hardly the main contributor to the big con of "Global Warming".

frokki

29th January 2008, 14:27

Interesting points, but who am I supposed to believe? Tristan Cliffe, or the big bad lying governments?

Would be best to make up my own mind, but since I don't have a spare life to dedicate for it, I think I just believe the majority of the guys who have done that. They say that global warming is true, and exponentially growing co2 emissions are the reason. Replacing fossile energy sources with "green" energy reduces co2 emissions.

However, as an individual, I don't care. This is the warmest winter ever and I'm loving it :D (Ok, some snow would be nice though)
IMO it's ridiculous if a European thinks he can save the world by using an energy saving light bulb in his bathroom.

kaynd

29th January 2008, 15:10

tristancliffe you are exaggerateing here…

Yes Politicians mainly lie … but usually they use general truths to base their lies.
Renewable forms of energy such us solar or wind power are way less destructive than the usual burning thing we do with any other energy source. The fact that hypocrites "count" on them to pretend they care about environment doesn’t prove that these kinds of energy sources are useless and destructive…

I haven’t searched for info nor have I read in any researches that prove how the resistance caused by the wind generators can effect so badly the climet…
But if they could effect the wind so badly… so what about cities full of skyscrapers?? They don’t effect the environment resisting the winds?

Anyway I haven't any clue about that so I will just have it in mind for search...

But.

Solar - apart from the fact that the reflected light is less likely to escape (it's wavelength is altered so that, in effect, it's Greenhouse Light), solar panels have lots of nasty metals and chemicals in them, which do not degrade, and are not currently processable. In fact, I believe that 1 tonne of solar panels contains MORE nasty stuff than 1 tonne of spent nuclear rods!

You are completely wrong about that.
Solar panels are made with silicon, some plastic and some copper based metal mainly… and we already use plenty of these materials in many ways…
There is nothing nastier in solar panels than what we have in any electronic part in any device we use everyday.
As for the reflected light is way less than what we see on fashionable glass buildings.
The color and the matt glass you can see at solar panels prevent reflection for the simple reason that it reduces their effectiveness

Primoz

29th January 2008, 15:20

kaynd

29th January 2008, 15:37

No it is not a fact and it depends on the working procedure to make a solar panel…

And as I said.. The procedure and the material usage to make a solar panel is extremely close to whatever silicon based electronic device we have around us.

tristancliffe

29th January 2008, 16:25

Interesting points, but who am I supposed to believe? Tristan Cliffe, or the big bad lying governments?Me, obviously :p Seriously, I'm not saying believe me, I'm saying don't JUST believe what you are told - find the facts out yourself. This applies to everything, from taking your car to a service to the presence of aliens. You will rarely be told the whole truth (often for convenience as the whole truth may or may not be very complicated)...

Would be best to make up my own mind, but since I don't have a spare life to dedicate for it, I think I just believe the majority of the guys who have done that. They say that global warming is true, and exponentially growing co2 emissions are the reason. Replacing fossile energy sources with "green" energy reduces co2 emissions.But dig a little bit, and you'll find there is no evidence for 'global warming', and that CO2 isn't actually a major contributor to it anyway.
However, as an individual, I don't care.A good thing - I don't care about global warming, but I do care that a vast majority have fallen for the joke hook, line and sinker.
This is the warmest winter ever and I'm loving it :D (Ok, some snow would be nice though)
IMO it's ridiculous if a European thinks he can save the world by using an energy saving light bulb in his bathroom.For starters, energy saving lightbulbs ALSO have some nasty chemicals and metals in them (and/or used in their production) that are bad for the environment.

tristancliffe you are exaggerateing here…

Yes Politicians mainly lie … but usually they use general truths to base their lies.No, they use whatever is convenient.
Renewable forms of energy such us solar or wind power are way less destructive than the usual burning thing we do with any other energy source.At the moment this is true. Because 'renewable' makes up less than 1% of the worlds power. Scale it up to 100% (which is the ideal if they are so good) and suddenly the small downsides become MAJOR problems. For example, it takes more energy (and therefore emissions) to put up, service and decommission a wind turbine than it will save/generate in it's working life. How can that be good when the basic analysis says the world (as a whole) would be better of for each wind turbine NOT erected? The fact that hypocrites "count" on them to pretend they care about environment doesn’t prove that these kinds of energy sources are useless and destructive…But, sadly, they are.
I haven’t searched for info nor have I read in any researches that prove how the resistance caused by the wind generators can effect so badly the climet…
But if they could effect the wind so badly… so what about cities full of skyscrapers?? They don’t effect the environment resisting the winds?Because skyscapers just sit there. They aren't actively removing energy from the wind. Each wind turbine only takes a small amount. But a decent wind farm of, say, 1000 turbines will make a massive difference to the wind currents. Fact. Whether or not that is bad is actually unknown for sure (until it happens I guess), but how can changing the world's weather help?
You are completely wrong about that.
Solar panels are made with silicon, some plastic and some copper based metal mainly… and we already use plenty of these materials in many ways…
There is nothing nastier in solar panels than what we have in any electronic part in any device we use everyday.
As for the reflected light is way less than what we see on fashionable glass buildings.
The color and the matt glass you can see at solar panels prevent reflection for the simple reason that it reduces their effectivenessMaybe do a bit more research into solar panels ;)

kaynd

29th January 2008, 16:49

“Because skyscapers just sit there”
so they do not add any resistance to our system… hmm:scratchch

“Maybe do a bit more research into solar panels”
I will sure do mainly because it is part of what I am studying…
There is nothing more I can argue about here.
I don’t know if you really know what you are talking about or you just have read some openminding articles.
You don’t know if I know what I am talking about. (and I am not willing to prove anything)

You have more posts than me -> you win

xaotik

29th January 2008, 16:53

YOu are wrong. It's a well known fact that making a solar pannel is such a dirty job it reeks havoc on the enviroment a lot mroe than you get from the pannel itself. It's not just silicon and copper but loads of heavy metals, mercury for example being one.

Where exactly in the process do those heavy metals get introduced? Because from what I've actually seen of the process there was no need for any of that, unless they did it with sleight of hand tricks and I didn't get to see it. And the most popular ways of generating silicon don't have anything to do with mercury or whatever. So I guess that phase of construction is also out of the picture.

tristancliffe

29th January 2008, 17:46

They aren't actively removing energy from the wind.
“Because skyscapers just sit there”
so they do not add any resistance to our system… hmm:scratchch

Wasn't really what I said, now was it?

russraine

29th January 2008, 22:11

Solar - I hope you're going to start Modding this thread of your's :-) Full of idiots! :-)

varjsa-9

31st January 2008, 17:17

One more link to put the Prius vs Hummer story to bed...

http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_of_science/case_studies/hummer_vs_prius.pdf

Solar Hydro

Thank you for this Sol - saved my day in a way. Now I god some new material for our "coffee-table" conversation at work :thumb:

About the more recent conversations... how come no one mentioned nuclear fusion as future energy source? At the moment it seems as realistic way to replace fossile/conventional nuclear power as do those green alternatives mention above - meaning that it might happen in future, distant future.

While this topic is on table, China and India seem to be doing huge leaps to economic wealth - which also leads to increase of emissions (sidenote: did you spot the announcement of words cheapest car a while ago? great news :really: ). And while that is happening, old "giants" are still heavily using coal/oil to produce energy - the very same energy that this laptop is sucking from my "wall". Suddenly, it all seems futile - in fact, I strongly believe that absolutely nothing serious will be done untill something really catastrofic happens and most likely then - if this all is even caused by humans - it will be too late for action.

Not pointing fingers here though, nor am I saying I'm any better...

I have PC running 24/7 and using 200 watts in here just to act as a server
I live in old building (1970's or so) which is really not that energy efficent - no heat recovery technology used for example
My car is from year 1999 and definately uses gasoline to move around, though it's a bit better than the previous 1985 model that didn't even have catalysator - not that it would alone make it perfect. And am really reluctant to sell my car and walk or use bus
And so on...

...just wanted to say something with my limited knowledge, that had not yet raised up here - and maybe do a confession to feel better :shy:

Solar Hydro

27th August 2010, 20:20

It's been a long time, but here is a new Prius update :)

Today, I went for the first time to the mandatory 'technical control' with my Prius (it will be 5 years old next week).

I had my camera ready to photograph the CO2 and NOX emissions readout, and I was genuinely curious to see the measured emissions compared to the advertised values.

I pulled up to the measurement station, in EV mode. I used the STOP button (which locks the transmission but the engine(s) stay(s) on). The guy told me: "rev the engine". I hit the gas hard, car stayed in EV mode (logical). I took EV mode off, put it in NEUTRAL as opposed to stop, hit the gas hard, petrol engine still didn't start. I put it in DRIVE, as opposed to neutral, pushed gas a bit, hitting the brakes at the same time, petrol engine still didn't start (I didn't push gas much because I really didn't want to rear-end an old dirty diesel Jetta 10 metres ahead of me - especially after an old dirty diesel Polo had already rear-ended me 3 minutes earlier in the queue). I put my hands up and offered the guy to try; he did, but he just pushed gas with car in STOP mode which was never gonna work, and gave up. He went to ask a more senior guy, who shrugged, and said 'let it pass'.

Then I completed the rest of the test - the whole of the test in EV mode too, I loved that. Tests included brakes on front and rear, suspension on all wheels, lights, some inspection from below by a human (not sure what they check there) and I was told: "perfect".

Then I paid €59 (more than the standard €31), because I learned that I was supposed to go a year ago and somehow the 'invitation' was lost (probably own fault rather than theirs).

Solar Hydro

www.flickr.com/photos/solar_hydro

AtomAnt

28th August 2010, 21:18

Nice to know it's still in great shape after five years, did that model ever get a recall of any kind?

How are the gas prices there now, they are hovering around 1.03 a liter here.

What's the coldest temp that car has ever been in?

AAnt

Solar Hydro

29th August 2010, 14:57

Hi Ant,

Nope, 2005 Prius was never recalled.

The only issue I had with it was that the standard battery (not the one powering the electric motor) died (slowly) a few months ago.

I was told that this is a regular occurrence on any car anywhere between 2 and 7 years. On the Prius it's crippling because the computer needs to work to be able to start the Prius (presumably a computer is increasingly required in other cars too). Toyota replaced the battery free of charge as part of 'all maintenance for free for 5 years' that came with the Prius when I got it.

Current belgian gas price: Eurosuper 95 - €1,4320/l.

Coldest temp must have been be around -15° Celcius.

Solar Hydro

theirishnoob

29th August 2010, 23:44

why people dont buy little diahatsu's and suzuki's ill never know...

1 liter diesel charade gets 3l per 100 km without breaking a sweat.

even the turbo models get respectable mpg and if you where to run the banger on bio diesel your recycling and getting Good mpg figures ( aswell as keeping a good car on the road - never put a good one down )

Becky Rose

30th August 2010, 00:32

why people dont buy little diahatsu's and suzuki's ill never know...
Because some of us do long drives on dual carriageways. Anything less than 2 litres is going to shatter the Earth's crust from the vibrations of the engine, suck it's oil reserves dry to feed it, and get there at 60mph with an aching back. Having too little power can be a very bad thing.

I take no pride in my car, it's a 2 litre turbo diesel Ford "I work for the man" silver Mondeo. It's average in every sense, it has no flair and does not win any performance races - but I couldn't imagine doing the driving I do with a smaller engine.

Don't get me wrong i'd rather do away with a car altogether if I could - and I did just that a few years back and got myself a bicycle, but I believe in using the right tool for the job.

Little town cars are just that, they're for bobbing about town in.

I don't understand Prius' at all. Save the planet by throwing away a perfectly good old car and then tear the planets resources up to build a shiney new one? I just can't figure out the mentality of anyone who would buy one. Sorry, it just doesn't make sense to me. If the Prius had a redeeming feature other than being marketting as a contientious objector to the car industry, whilst still actually being made by the car industry, then maybe it would make sense as a product - but right now I just dont get it.