Spinoff : Future hotlapping start position [Archive]

biggie

29th August 2006, 19:23

Is it possible to invalidate only the EXACT lap with reverse driving, but NOT the NEXT lap?
That will save the ability to warm up tyres freely, but cheater's hotlaps on 2-split tracks will be still impossible.

I'm still running U9 because the newer Test Patches are optional and personally I want to keep the old speedo. But then I noticed that the hotlaps I did with U9 seem to be invalid in U18+...
I usually do some reverse driving to warm the tires - which is valid in U9 and which is also fine with the hotlap upload script on LFSWorld. However, if someone with Patch U18+ runs the replay, the lap shows as invalid.
Actually this makes the two patches incompatible, I don't know if Scawen is aware of that since the thread title is claiming otherwise.

While I'm at it, I may add I find it a little bothersome not to be able to drive backwards at all. What if you spin and you need to turn the car around? I really like what AttaHorse suggested though:
HLVC should invalidate only the current lap, not the next one. This would preserve the hotlappers ability to warming their tires properly (which already consumes a lot of obligatory time anyway).
An alternative would be to pre-select a tire temperature in the setup itself. This has been suggested before somewhere and I think it could be useful. It would lead to the following advantages:

smaller replay files (less bandwidth usage)
less fast forwarding for the replay viewer
hotlapper's comfort :shy: : less obligatory drifting and sliding before the actual start of the lap

zeugnimod

29th August 2006, 19:29

I'm still running U9 because the newer Test Patches are optional and personally I want to keep the old speedo. But then I noticed that the hotlaps I did with U9 seem to be invalid in U18+...
I usually do some reverse driving to warm the tires - which is valid in U9 and which is also fine with the hotlap upload script on LFSWorld. However, if someone with Patch U18+ runs the replay, the lap shows as invalid.
Actually this makes the two patches incompatible, I don't know if Scawen is aware of that since the thread title is claiming otherwise.

Test patches up to U18 are no longer compatible.
S, T, U, U19, U20 are all compatible and cheat protected.

On page 19 of the cleanup thread. ;)

And the thread title says, its compatible with U, so the title is right. :p

Scawen

29th August 2006, 20:05

I really like what AttaHorse suggested though:
HLVC should invalidate only the current lap, not the next one. This would preserve the hotlappers ability to warming their tires properly (which already consumes a lot of obligatory time anyway).
An alternative would be to pre-select a tire temperature in the setup itself. This has been suggested before somewhere and I think it could be useful. It would lead to the following advantages:

smaller replay files (less bandwidth usage)
less fast forwarding for the replay viewer
hotlapper's comfort :shy: : less obligatory drifting and sliding before the actual start of the lapI would agree with AttaHorse's idea as well, with the current hotlapping system. But I also think that when the next incompatible version comes out, hotlapping should start from the pits. This is as it would be in real life (obviously). The current "start from previous split" was really for the unchanging cars of the pre-S2 times. I think one lap before the hotlap would be good because that's how it would be in reality.

So I'll be having a look to see if I can code up AttaHorse's idea easily, but if it seems to be too difficult for some reason then I may leave it out, awaiting the "start from pits" system.

biggie

29th August 2006, 20:42

I would agree with AttaHorse's idea as well, with the current hotlapping system. But I also think that when the next incompatible version comes out, hotlapping should start from the pits. This is as it would be in real life (obviously). The current "start from previous split" was really for the unchanging cars of the pre-S2 times. I think one lap before the hotlap would be good because that's how it would be in reality.

So I'll be having a look to see if I can code up AttaHorse's idea easily, but if it seems to be too difficult for some reason then I may leave it out, awaiting the "start from pits" system.

With all due respect and while I appreciate your thoughts on this, but the "start from pits" method would make hotlapping really unattractive.
Thinking of Aston GP and the UF1, you'd have to cruise 4-5 minutes first before your lap starts. And then imagine doing a small mistake in T1... not exactly motivating.
While I agree that LFS should be made the most realistic game possible, I don't see what would be gained from starting from the pits in hotlapping mode. I can see everyone viewing the replay fast forwarding the first lap to eventually catch the start of the second lap. Nobody wants to see that boring obligatory tire warming lap! And it really bloats the replay files.
Before implementing this method, you should also think about if this will actually add something positive to the game. Does this encourage competition? Does it ultimately improve immersion? Does this spoil some peoples' fun? ;)

I'm clearly speaking for a minority here. Many people will surely smile at this posting, because they don't have much appreciation for those chasing the clock and not fighting it out head to head with others...
Being one of the few dedicated hotlappers (who do prefer this over online racing), I can see this making me lose interest in LFS. I, for one, do not want to spend my time doing pointless warmup laps, I want to fight the clock and waste as little time as possible with it :)
I may also add, hotlapping as such is not really realistic, there's hardly any such thing in reality. Maybe the qualifying, but it has a very limited time frame and there's also the race strategy involved in it.

Of course this is your game, your product, you can do whatever you want with it, but I don't really see how adding that "start from pits" method would add to the game.
Please consider my words and think of the minority group in LFS who really play LFS mostly for the hotlapping mode.

bernhard.urban

29th August 2006, 20:58

i absolutely agree with biggie!
i'm remembering the s1 times when i completed the 100% rank... if that system would have been implemented back then, it would have been an absolute horror to even complete the rank.
and now with more than 700 combos - never :(

sinbad

29th August 2006, 21:00

MoonForce

29th August 2006, 21:00

With all due respect and while I appreciate your thoughts on this, but the "start from pits" method would make hotlapping really unattractive.
Thinking of Aston GP and the UF1, you'd have to cruise 4-5 minutes first before your lap starts. And then imagine doing a small mistake in T1... not exactly motivating.
While I agree that LFS should be made the most realistic game possible, I don't see what would be gained from starting from the pits in hotlapping mode. I can see everyone viewing the replay fast forwarding the first lap to eventually catch the start of the second lap. Nobody wants to see that boring obligatory tire warming lap! And it really bloats the replay files.
Before implementing this method, you should also think about if this will actually add something positive to the game. Does this encourage competition? Does it ultimately improve immersion? Does this spoil some peoples' fun? ;)

I'm clearly speaking for a minority here. Many people will surely smile at this posting, because they don't have much appreciation for those chasing the clock and not fighting it out head to head with others...
Being one of the few dedicated hotlappers (who do prefer this over online racing), I can see this making me lose interest in LFS. I, for one, do not want to spend my time doing pointless warmup laps, I want to fight the clock and waste as little time as possible with it :)
I may also add, hotlapping as such is not really realistic, there's hardly any such thing in reality. Maybe the qualifying, but it has a very limited time frame and there's also the race strategy involved in it.

Of course this is your game, your product, you can do whatever you want with it, but I don't really see how adding that "start from pits" method would add to the game.
Please consider my words and think of the minority group in LFS who really play LFS mostly for the hotlapping mode.

+1

but: lets do that idea for qualifying, 1 warumuplap for qualifying would be realistic.
hotlapping has nuttin 2 do with REAL racing. HOTLapping its just the chase to a perfect lap and NOT a qualificationlap. i totally agree with biggie that 1 warmuplap would really destroy the fun in hotlapping couz u waste lot of time...

regards

biggie

29th August 2006, 21:13

Well Scawen's plan gets the thumbs up from me, hopefully all qualifying sessions will start from the pits also?

I see your point, though, Biggie. I guess laps will be "worth" more if it takes more effort to try and beat them.

I'd much rather see effort spent in the right way... which is more actual HOT laps!
I can't see how wasting time on warmup laps makes the following lap more worthy... would you hotlap more because you will be forced to do warmup laps?

Biohazard

29th August 2006, 21:25

+1 for biggie.

implementing a warmup lap in hotlapping mode would completely destroy this part of the game.

Renku

29th August 2006, 22:00

+1 for biggie.

implementing a warmup lap in hotlapping mode would completely destroy this part of the game.
+1 from here too!

Flotch

29th August 2006, 22:15

me too

tristancliffe

29th August 2006, 23:10

Honey

30th August 2006, 00:40

I'd much rather see effort spent in the right way... which is more actual HOT laps!
I can't see how wasting time on warmup laps makes the following lap more worthy... would you hotlap more because you will be forced to do warmup laps?
i'm totally with you especially for prewarmed tyres at desired temperature...also there is an escamotage to make this solution totally realistic: it's the way used by the old toca race driver for the "hotlaps" where you needed to prove you are worth a chanche to get in the team...the solution is:

make the hotlap start with car in movement, just before the last split (where hotlaps starts now) handled by AI and leave the control to you in 5 seconds...this way is realistic because it assumes that the car was not teleported, but it was drove from the pits...it's just that such useless time is "warped" and you don't have to do this time waste...what do you think?

Doorman

30th August 2006, 00:42

Moonforce already said what I was going to say but i'll say it anyway. Hotlapping and qualifying are two seperate things. H-L start from the track, qualifying from pit. The fly in the ointment comes with how many pit spaces are there on any given track? A server with 20 plus drivers would present a problem nez pas?

Shotglass

30th August 2006, 02:35

A server with 20 plus drivers would present a problem nez pas?

simple ... put everybody in spectator as soon as the qualy begins

(and watch the fun when everybody drops out of spec at the same time)

(FIN)Eza

30th August 2006, 04:25

+1 for biggie

No more hotlapping for me either if need to start doing warmup laps before actual lap :x

For example think about people who hotlaps hours just for one lap.. With warmup lap there is double as much work to do

AutoPilot

30th August 2006, 06:01

+1 for biggie too. Starting from pits may be more realistic, but it's a waste of time and would make hotlapping much less attractive.
And I too don't like the 'no going backwards" rule and I'm sticking to plain U for now. I would have no objections if driving backwards would invalidate only the current hotlap.

Jonesy_

30th August 2006, 06:47

once again, agreed on biggie and co. on the hotlapping subject, however starting the quali from the pits should be implented.

sinbad

30th August 2006, 10:59

I'd much rather see effort spent in the right way... which is more actual HOT laps!
I can't see how wasting time on warmup laps makes the following lap more worthy... would you hotlap more because you will be forced to do warmup laps?

Well firstly I think doing an outlap isn't really all that much of an effort. Secondly, when I said they would be "worth" more, I was stating that because it takes a bit more time and possibly more desire to drive a hotlap on some of the longer courses, any world record laps done on those courses will be stronger, safer, worth more.

I don't think it's as simple as saying the work required will double. Maybe the standard will be slightly lower, people don't risk good laps by pushing 101% etc. You have an hour free, you hotlap, perhaps your lap isn't as fast as might have been because you don't have shift-r to allow you to almost instantly begin another lap. It won't be as simple as having to do another outlap whenever you would have pressed shift-r, you won't screw up as much because you won't risk as much.

I guess we all draw a line somewhere. I don't really care all that greatly, and I won't go on an "I want uber realism" rant. I see what Scawen's thinking is though, things which make us think the cars are actual mechanical things that don't go anywhere unless we drive them there I approve of.

510N3D

30th August 2006, 11:13

As much as it pains me to suggest unrealistic things for LFS, Biggie does have a point (and he made it well).

How about the Tristan Compromise.

1. All sessions in single player and multiplayer start from the pitlane (except the race, duh. Unless you have outlaps to the grid, pace laps and all that, which I would love (but turn off probably :shy:).

2. Hotlapping sessions start from the track. But, to counter needless reverse driving, allow the start position to be configurable. Thus you might want to start Blackwood 400 meters from the start line in the BF1 (say), but just 100 meters in the UF1. Would save time, and allow biggie the chance to show off as he has done so successfully for a while now.

Feel free to throw spanners in the works by thinking of flaws to this system, but as I've only ever done about 10 hotlaps (and they were only luke warm really, though I did have a WR for a whole two days once) I'm not really bothered by it. I'd much rather race than lap against a clock, but I appreciate that some people are different.

+1 (1 & 2) good idea. Idividual start positions would be very useful but hard to implement to every combo i think (sh.. lot of work) but i may be wrong on that. As for the tire temp, it would also be great to set a certain temp for every single tire to lets say 130°C max would be great (depends on tyre types) (or 150° for the bf1/oval, so you have the optimum temprature in the second or third lap). More changes for everybody to do a perfect lap without 1000x spins and drifts and slides .....

ps: maybe a option is available before you start the hotlap, to choose if you want to drive either with or without a warmup lap.

GP4Flo

30th August 2006, 11:25

I'm either for the hardcore-sim-approach (starting every session and hotlapping from the pits) or for Tristan's hotlapper-friendly suggestion. :)

510N3D

30th August 2006, 11:31

I'm either for the hardcore-sim-approach (starting every session and hotlapping from the pits) or for Tristan's hotlapper-friendly suggestion. :)

hardcore-sim-approach? ok then lets talk about mouse/keyboard/joystick/gamepad/headmouse drivers. Or what about all the other cams you can drive with? Thats not realistic but that does not count for me as long as noboby gets a pure advantage through that compared to those who drive with wheel as it should be and to those who drive in cockpit only as it should be. From my pov things should be easy as much as possible without loosing the goal of a simulation at all.

Taavi(EST)

30th August 2006, 11:55

I'd go for the AI controlled flying start thing, because i love the simplicity that lfs has atm, i don't want to lose that...i mean, no real loadtimes, simple online interface. The "quick on track" style just rocks atm...don't change that! :)

Scawen

30th August 2006, 12:07

Just a quick note : As requested, I have made the "next" lap not be HLVC invalidated by reverse driving (in my version). Only the current lap is invalidated. So that stops anyone using the reverse driving cheat but does not stop them driving the wrong way to warm their tyres. It turned out easy to do, so worth doing it for now as we will still be on a compatible version for some time...

-wes-

30th August 2006, 12:30

Hyperactive

30th August 2006, 13:20

As much as it pains me to suggest unrealistic things for LFS, Biggie does have a point (and he made it well).

How about the Tristan Compromise.

1. All sessions in single player and multiplayer start from the pitlane (except the race, duh. Unless you have outlaps to the grid, pace laps and all that, which I would love (but turn off probably :shy:).

2. Hotlapping sessions start from the track. But, to counter needless reverse driving, allow the start position to be configurable. Thus you might want to start Blackwood 400 meters from the start line in the BF1 (say), but just 100 meters in the UF1. Would save time, and allow biggie the chance to show off as he has done so successfully for a while now.

Feel free to throw spanners in the works by thinking of flaws to this system, but as I've only ever done about 10 hotlaps (and they were only luke warm really, though I did have a WR for a whole two days once) I'm not really bothered by it. I'd much rather race than lap against a clock, but I appreciate that some people are different.

For the 1. point, +1. And own pitboxes
2. The current system is ok for hotlappers, but the problem is that HL sessions start with cold tires. Maybe the race cars could have preheated tyres like they do in real life (mostly). But coding over 700 different starting points is too much work, starting from the beginning of the last sector works well, imho. User configurable starting points don't really sound something that would be easily doable either. Whatabout the user gets to select whether he wants to start the HL sessions from the beginning of the second or third sector, or from pits? :)

510N3D

30th August 2006, 13:36

For the 1. point, +1. And own pitboxes
2. The current system is ok for hotlappers, but the problem is that HL sessions start with cold tires. Maybe the race cars could have preheated tyres like they do in real life (mostly). But coding over 700 different starting points is too much work, starting from the beginning of the last sector works well, imho. User configurable starting points don't really sound something that would be easily doable either. Whatabout the user gets to select whether he wants to start the HL sessions from the beginning of the second or third sector, or from pits? :)

uhm looks like you did not read post #20 which contains the almost same content? :smileypul :thumb: Anyway sounds good :tilt:

[RCG]Boosted

30th August 2006, 13:56

HLVC should invalidate only the current lap, not the next one. This would preserve the hotlappers ability to warming their tires properly (which already consumes a lot of obligatory time anyway).
An alternative would be to pre-select a tire temperature in the setup itself. nah that could be used for "cheating" (driving on the grass to gain more speed for the next lap / cutting chicanes).

Just a quick note : As requested, I have made the "next" lap not be HLVC invalidated by reverse driving (in my version). Only the current lap is invalidated. So that stops anyone using the reverse driving cheat but does not stop them driving the wrong way to warm their tyres. It turned out easy to do, so worth doing it for now as we will still be on a compatible version for some time... but that will work :p
although, id like to see prewarmed tires as well, and its not really unrealistic too, so why not? :p
:thumb:

tristancliffe

30th August 2006, 13:57

510N3D

30th August 2006, 14:02

When I start hotlapping my tyres are warm - i.e. only 20 degrees below optimum. As everyone is the same I think it's not too much of a problem. if they started cold, i.e. ambient, then I could understand that complaint.

because it takes ages to gain those 20 degrees or more to get optimum tire tempratures for the next or the lap after that (oval) on most of the cars and its just a waste of time? Starting with optimum temp (which would cool down a bit so you still have to heat em at some combos is what i think of).

Renku

30th August 2006, 14:06

2. Hotlapping sessions start from the track. But, to counter needless reverse driving, allow the start position to be configurable. Thus you might want to start Blackwood 400 meters from the start line in the BF1 (say), but just 100 meters in the UF1. Would save time, and allow biggie the chance to show off as he has done so successfully for a while now.
I think hotlapping should be equal to everyone in every way. So a NO from me, and a NO to any other player side configuration ability.

NotAnIllusion

30th August 2006, 14:12

Couple of degrees less than optimal tyre temperatures and start at the beginning of the last sector, or in a suitable place to get a decent run to the front straight would do me quite nicely. No need to warm up tyres by driving backwards, and just enough space to warm up the tyres to optimal if wanted :nod:

DaveWS

30th August 2006, 14:19

Just thought that I would add that I too disagree with hotlap starting from the pits. However, I too do think that it would be a good idea to starts from the pits for qualifying.

One more thing ... I wish we had manual race starts, where false starting could be possible (and obviously penalised), rather than the current computer controlled start system. Phew..

510N3D

30th August 2006, 14:35

I think hotlapping should be equal to everyone in every way. So a NO from me, and a NO to any other player side configuration ability.

ok then everybody get the same pc+ a good wheel, lets say G25? then the same monitor, same provider, same socks, same food & beer and thats it. Easy. Lets do it. :smileypul Seriously, as long as the hotlap itself is not touched by any factor, its ok for me. I dont care if somebody starts from the pits, its your time dude, waste it, be happy and enjoy but to those who want a quick hotlap mode, it should be adjustable to start from the track as usual, with pre-heaten tires at (nearly optimum temp). Did i missed something now? For sure...:scratchch

Blowtus

30th August 2006, 14:36

When I start hotlapping my tyres are warm - i.e. only 20 degrees below optimum. As everyone is the same I think it's not too much of a problem. if they started cold, i.e. ambient, then I could understand that complaint.

there is clearly the ability to heat them to different levels - if you want to go straight out there and hotlap, why wouldn't you heat them to optimum, or 5 degrees below (to allow for heating over the lap)
I think they should either start dead cold (which would probably require more realism from the temp model) or should be pre-heated to what ever temp you want. This arbitrary heating seems a little odd and unrealistic to me.

RoCkBiGdAvE

30th August 2006, 14:38

I dno if this has been suggested (i've only skimmed over the thread) but i kinda agree with both parties here. I agree that starting from the pits is something irl and works well but i also agree that for the big tracks, no-one wants to damage their car (which can happen) when driving around which can hinder their attempt at a good lap. So why not have an option? When you go and choose your track in hotlapping mode, a selection comes up (like the are you sure you wana exit screen) option for "start from pits" or "LFS start" or something? That way if someone does wana have a rl experience, say around blackwood they can start from the pits, if not, they can start from where LFS starts you know? Just an idea, dont know if this would be hard to impliment but it seems a decent idea to give both parties what they like.

biggie

30th August 2006, 14:40

Boosted;204593']nah that could be used for "cheating" (driving on the grass to gain more speed for the next lap / cutting chicanes).

Nah, you got me wrong there :P My suggestion only applies to driving backwards. Cutting the track should still invalidate the next lap of course (in the last split that is).

Scawen

30th August 2006, 14:41

Yes, my update only changes it for the reverse driving invalidation.
The other invalidations have not changed in any of these versions.

Scawen

30th August 2006, 14:44

I dno if this has been suggested (i've only skimmed over the thread)Yes that has been suggested and you really should read the thread. Or we will end up with dozens of duplicate posts with everyone thinking they are quite likely to be the first one to have that idea.

That's why reading the thread is a special rule of this forum, and is also a general rule or forum etiquette in ALL forums.

510N3D

30th August 2006, 16:20

yes, duplicate posts are a waste of time (right Hyper? :smileypul ). Which brings me to my point. See what is hotlapping? Saving time whenever and wherever you can. I mean sure you can chill and do some hotlaps for fun but thats another thing. If youre succuessful this way. respect but i think most of the drivers just want a quick hotlap without any tire heating procedures. Tires are the most important factor in LFS to get a good time, beside skills and driving technique(s) and so on. I kind of have some splitted thoughts on that.

There are hotlappers that enjoys the driving itselfs and the hole hotlap thing, they maybe improve less then everyone else because they have alot of time to spend.

And, on the other side there are people that only looking foward, as i said above, for the single hotlap. To get there as fast as possible without any damage and with nearly optimal tire temperatures (for the hole lap, which also means the tires are mostly a bit or more above optimum at some combos at the beginning of the hotlap) is the second goal of that and not very easy at some combos.

So finally a hotlap mode that somehow fits for everybody is the idea i have and what i can see from other peoples postings as well.
I really like to spin at the oval sometimes to get the tires hot but that can be also very annoying and most of the time the reason i leave the hotlap mode. At curcuit tracks, its more diffecult to heat the tires and those who can do it or simple had a lucky run, are in the advantage without having more skills, better equipment or a totally godlike driving technique.

sinbad

30th August 2006, 16:43

I really like to spin at the oval sometimes to get the tires hot but that can be also very annoying and most of the time the reason i leave the hotlap mode. At curcuit tracks, its more diffecult to heat the tires and those who can do it or simple had a lucky run, are in the advantage without having more skills, better equipment or a totally godlike driving technique.

That's nonsense, there's no luck in heating the tyres. If you can't heat your tyres without crashing, or spinning off, then you don't deserve to start your hotlap with tyres at a perfect temperature. If your setup makes it hard to heat your tyres, then again, you don't deserve to start your hotlap with optimally heated tyres.

I think the current tyre temperature system is fine, or do we want everything doing for us?

[RCG]Boosted

30th August 2006, 16:58

510N3D

30th August 2006, 17:01

That's nonsense, there's no luck in heating the tyres. If you can't heat your tyres without crashing, or spinning off, then you don't deserve to start your hotlap with tyres at a perfect temperature. If your setup makes it hard to heat your tyres, then again, you don't deserve to start your hotlap with optimally heated tyres.

I think the current tyre temperature system is fine, or do we want everything doing for us?

That's nonsense. Doing spins and drifts to get hot tires is not compareable to the techniques you need to manage the track/hotlap.

What about real racing leagues? Im not sure if they all use pre-heated tires. But if so, why not using this for lfs as well. Sure, we do not get cold tires at all, right now, but why should we not be able to decide, for how much they are pre-heated to a maximum set by the devs?

And no, my point is not a automatic game, but a game with more possibilities and the fact that we can do suggestions here and can discuss it to see how we can find together and profit from it. And finally the devs decide whats good or not. I can live with it, we all have to in case the hotlap model as it exists now, remains with the same conditions but why not try to improve it?

Maybe youre a bit scared now because it would be more fair for everybody and youre loosing your advantage? Hmm :scratchch

Edit: See i have some WRs, but thats only because i made more actions to get these tires hot. I dont like the fact that the tires, or the temperature of the tires are nearly decisive for my laptime. I think the line and the technique youre moving the vehicle should be more important then this.

tristancliffe

30th August 2006, 17:13

Hotlap in S1 when tyre temps aren't a problem then - problem solved. S2 has tyre temps and of course it's going to affect your lap times and driving - why shouldn't it?

510N3D

30th August 2006, 17:18

Hotlap in S1 when tyre temps aren't a problem then - problem solved. S2 has tyre temps and of course it's going to affect your lap times and driving - why shouldn't it?

Problem solved? lol..

It surely affects the lap times and driving yes, did i said anything else? What i mean is (damn language barriers) that, and Nascar 03 has shown it, Tires are not that important compared to the line and technique you are moving the vehicle, oval or curcuit.

The effect is, from my PoV, more powerful and not very well balanced, but its a alpha version, and the first (public) damage (tire) model so im looking foward and im interested if im right on that or not.

Blowtus

30th August 2006, 17:21

Hotlap in S1 when tyre temps aren't a problem then - problem solved. S2 has tyre temps and of course it's going to affect your lap times and driving - why shouldn't it?

It's great that tyre temps affect lap times and driving. But what's the point of starting them pre-heated to an arbitrary amount below optimum? Surely as a race car driver, if I have tyre warming equipment that can heat r2's to 70 degrees, those same tyre warmers could also manage to heat r1's to 70, instead of 60? Surely as a big fan of 'realism' you can see that if warmers are being used, it's more realistic to be able to set them as you will?

sinbad

30th August 2006, 17:39

That's nonsense. Doing spins and drifts to get hot tires is not compareable to the techniques you need to manage the track/hotlap.

What about real racing leagues? Im not sure if they all use pre-heated tires. But if so, why not using this for lfs as well. Sure, we do not get cold tires at all, right now, but why should we not be able to decide, for how much they are pre-heated to a maximum set by the devs?

And no, my point is not a automatic game, but a game with more possibilities and the fact that we can do suggestions here and can discuss it to see how we can find together and profit from it. And finally the devs decide whats good or not. I can live with it, we all have to in case the hotlap model as it exists now, remains with the same conditions but why not try to improve it?

Maybe youre a bit scared now because it would be more fair for everybody and youre loosing your advantage? Hmm :scratchch

Edit: See i have some WRs, but thats only because i made more actions to get these tires hot. I dont like the fact that the tires, or the temperature of the tires are nearly decisive for my laptime. I think the line and the technique youre moving the vehicle should be more important then this.

What are you talking about? How do I have any advantage to lose?!

F1 tyre warmers are almost certainly the best available, but not even those are able to heat the tyre to fully optimal temperature. (Hence why after a pit-stop for tyres, they have to initially take it easy on "cold" tyres).

Heating the tyres evenly is a skill (they say Alonso is good at it, which is why he's good at restarts). If you think burnouts and spins are the best way, then that's probably why you don't heat the tyre evenly.

Honey

30th August 2006, 17:40

so...let's make a summary of the possibilities for hotlapping mode and hotlapping only (i think we can ignore qulify for now), so to vote them:

(1) start with prewarmed fixed tyre temperature (as it is now)

(2) start with prewarmed user defined tyre temperature

(3) start with cold tyres

(4) start from pits

(5) start from last sector from zero kmh

(6) start from last sector with flying start (i.e. AI drive car before last sector for 5 seconds, then control is passed to user)

my vote goes for (2)+(6) and (4) as an option for hardcore gamers.
(2) is realistic because in real life exist tyre covers that prewarm tyres at desired temperature, (6) is realistic, because it assumes you started from pits, but saves you the time of actually doing it AND it gives no unfair advantage!

BurnOut69

30th August 2006, 17:42

I vote for option (8)

That is, 2+6

NotAnIllusion

30th August 2006, 17:43

Option (2) for me. I might want to bust a couple of extra moves before the start/finish line so a flying start is out for me.

*Oh yeah, and (5), start from 0 kph/mph beginning of last split.

sinbad

30th August 2006, 17:47

my vote goes for (2)+(6) and (4) as an option for hardcore gamers.
(2) is realistic because in real life exist tyre covers that prewarm tyres at desired temperature, (6) is realistic, because it assumes you started from pits, but saves you the time of actually doing it AND it gives no unfair advantage!

None of this is about any "unfair advantage". Whatever the system, it has always been the same for every one of us. I totally beg to differ on the realism subject though. It's like me asking for another shift-r key, like shift-*-R which allows me to begin a hotlap which I messed up from the point just before I messed it up, because it can assume that since I drove the lap up till that point, I can do it again. That'll save me time.

510N3D

30th August 2006, 18:08

If you think burnouts and spins are the best way, then that's probably why you don't heat the tyre evenly.

well right now it is not the only way to heat em up evenly but its the less time consuming alternative. I like the way how Alonso is catching some grip as well but thats not possible in lfs right now. I mean sure it is, but you have to do alot more actions to get a simular result. I may be wrong on that but i have the strong feeling its like that, because i had....some practice :D

So, you do not agree with me that it could be more fair for everybody while starting with (more) pre-heated tires right? As i said, to a limit set by the devs, maybe 20°+ so you still loosing temp and you still have to heat em up but not that exessive way as it requires right now.

What are you talking about? How do I have any advantage to lose?!

i was just asking, a simple yes or no would be enough so far :) actually it was meaned more generally and the "you" was not only to limit at/on you personally. Sorry for that :tilt:

@ Honey:

I would like to see the possibility to choose from all of these. As long as none of these points gives you a clear advandtage to everything else it should not be a problem but thats to complex to decide here and now, for me. Any other ideas on that? Btw. i like that summary. Nice job. :thumb:

Renku

30th August 2006, 18:26

(1) start with prewarmed fixed tyre temperature (as it is now)

(5) start from last sector from zero kmh (as it is now)

Biohazard

30th August 2006, 18:34

(1) start with prewarmed fixed tyre temperature (as it is now)

(5) start from last sector from zero kmh (as it is now)

same for me.

duke_toaster

30th August 2006, 18:40

I am a useless hotlapper (my laps are faster racing against other cars than on my own :pillepall ) but here are my ideas.

Pre-warmed tyres and start from previous split at a set speed. It's possible to set cars in motion at the start, one of the lessons I think does that or am I thinking of something else.

Honey

30th August 2006, 18:52

Option (2) for me. I might want to bust a couple of extra moves before the start/finish line so a flying start is out for me.

*Oh yeah, and (5), start from 0 kph/mph beginning of last split.
flying start from last sector, not finish line...actually iwouldnt bother, but it adds the realism some people are looking for...

filur

30th August 2006, 18:53

(1) + (4). :)

Honey

30th August 2006, 18:59

None of this is about any "unfair advantage". Whatever the system, it has always been the same for every one of us. I totally beg to differ on the realism subject though. It's like me asking for another shift-r key, like shift-*-R which allows me to begin a hotlap which I messed up from the point just before I messed it up, because it can assume that since I drove the lap up till that point, I can do it again. That'll save me time.
this is different, because doing the outlap is a simple thing to do that requires no skills, whilst of course the hotlap is a thing on the edge and repeating the first part of it after you did a mistake is a thing very hard to do and this is the competition that hotlaps bring...the outlap do not bring anything to the hotlap competition.

so we all agree (as you just said) it is not an unfair advantage, so, following your logic, an option for hardcore gamers to start from pits would solve this, am i correct?

SparkyDave

30th August 2006, 19:00

1 cold (ish) tyres

4 start from pits.

I have to agree with Sinbad on the added worth and (simulated) realism of starting HL from the pits.
I just dont see any dissadvantage to anyone, we would all be using the same system right? except it will take longer to complete an outlap then run a HL (time enough to heat tyres in a realistic way),so a few added minuites to the hours needed to HL all the combos anyway shouldnt upset anyone should it.

:)

SD.

sinbad

30th August 2006, 19:21

this is different, because doing the outlap is a simple thing to do that requires no skills, whilst of course the hotlap is a thing on the edge and repeating the first part of it after you did a mistake is a thing very hard to do and this is the competition that hotlaps bring...the outlap do not bring anything to the hotlap competition.

so we all agree (as you just said) it is not an unfair advantage, so, following your logic, an option for hardcore gamers to start from pits would solve this, am i correct?

I know, my example was an exaggeration. :)

As I have already said, I don't feel strongly about the starting point, but if it had been start-from-the-pits since day one, then I think the suggestion to start from the last split with optimally-heated tyres would be scoffed at, on grounds of realism. Of course, I think the tyre temperature thing is crazy, they should never ever be auto-heated completely to optimal temperature. It's a game, yes, but these are supposed to be real cars with real tyres.

Anyway, this is my last post in this thread. I've said all I have to say, and to conclude, I'm disappointed that people don't seem to enjoy the game as a whole. Do people really hate the simple act of driving the cars so much that they are not prepared to drive them for a lap from the pitlane to heat the tyres up in preparation for a hotlap? Just because shortcuts are possible in a game, doesn't mean we should be obliged to take them because they save time. In "The Perfect Sim" (indistinguishable from reality) would we really be asking to teleport 3/4 of the way round a track? Is this quest for WR times above all else the prime reason some of us play? I really thought this was a racing/motorsport-simulation with the option to drive hotlaps, not a hotlap-contest-game with virtual cars.

510N3D

30th August 2006, 20:42

I know, my example was an exaggeration. :)

As I have already said, I don't feel strongly about the starting point, but if it had been start-from-the-pits since day one, then I think the suggestion to start from the last split with optimally-heated tyres would be scoffed at, on grounds of realism. Of course, I think the tyre temperature thing is crazy, they should never ever be auto-heated completely to optimal temperature. It's a game, yes, but these are supposed to be real cars with real tyres.

Anyway, this is my last post in this thread. I've said all I have to say, and to conclude, I'm disappointed that people don't seem to enjoy the game as a whole. Do people really hate the simple act of driving the cars so much that they are not prepared to drive them for a lap from the pitlane to heat the tyres up in preparation for a hotlap? Just because shortcuts are possible in a game, doesn't mean we should be obliged to take them because they save time. In "The Perfect Sim" (indistinguishable from reality) would we really be asking to teleport 3/4 of the way round a track? Is this quest for WR times above all else the prime reason some of us play? I really thought this was a racing/motorsport-simulation with the option to drive hotlaps, not a hotlap-contest-game with virtual cars.

Well i think you dont get what i and some other are try to say and this hole thing sounds more dramatic then it is or you think it is. As i said (but it seams to me nobody reads what im typing so this is the last post here as well) its not the goal to create a hole new hotlap mode or simular. But you have to see the facts. There are people like you (nice hotlapping btw. just checked that out) that enjoys hotlapping more then others. The way you drive and the laps you have done shows that. I am the direct opposite to you. I enjoy hotlapping as well (these days) and the way i like to hotlap is different, faster and not that time consuming. But that does not exclude the fact that im having fun. Theres no problem at all when you like to spend alot of time for hotlapping, youre making plans and work on your setup and then you enjoy the differences compared to the previous status, maybe more then others. Same to me, but the difference is that i enjoy to do it as fast as possible. And also, mainly i payed for this game to have some nice fights online and not to hotlap :) (you could say im not a hotlapper by nature) But skills came with practice and i feld i could beat some times or give some times to deal with for others and thats why i have started it.

So finally, i wish theres a option for those that like to hotlap and enjoys every single second (like you) and for those that like to do some quick hotlaps to see whats going on, how to improve at given stages or simple got borred by starting over and over again simple because they messed up the hotlap or tire heating procedure.
Let me finish this with these last infos: as i went from nascar to lfs i was disappointed as i have seen what actions are needed in order to get a fast time on the oval. (Quietscheentes WR on FO8/Oval) So i did not even tried to do a single hotlap for ages because it was clear, the only and main reason, beside skills and practice was, you need cooking rims to be fast. Btw. im still convinced that the tires would not take those spins that easy and then doing a hotlap after that is simple rediculas somehow for me but i know, its still alpha :)
And dont be disappointed anymore because we all love lfs on our own ways otherwise we would not be here and try to help with the improvements and/or simular things.

Personal Word of the Day: Hotlap :pillepall :D

greetings
Plaztik

Hyperactive

30th August 2006, 20:51

yes, duplicate posts are a waste of time (right Hyper? :smileypul ).
...

My post was more precise, and as such, better :p

I really thought this was a racing/motorsport-simulation with the option to drive hotlaps, not a hotlap-contest-game with virtual cars.

Yes, but in real life, there is no such thing a hotlapping. And as such it has very little to do with real life. Only hotlapping that is done in real life, is with karts on some pay-per-drive circuits. Or in rally, but that is a whole different universe...

I would really not like to see that drivers need to start the hotlapping from the pits, even if do have to do it in real life. It is basically those things that don't add anything to the game, as biggie said. Driving alone a whole lap to start other one with full speed. Make an error, press buttons and go to pits and restart. If you want the whole realism package, you drive back to the pits, change fresh new (maybe even preheated) tyres and fix the damage, fill fuel and go off again. And wait that the pit crew does it for you. Or same thing applied to racing. Why don't we need to drive the cars to their starting places, or drive the cars back to paddock after race? While a nice feature it might be, you should ask: does it add anything new or interesting to the whole theme of LFS?. As unrealistic it may be, starting the hotlaps with tires at optimum temp at the beginning of last sector sounds ok to me. Or is it more realistic that you suft the track back on forth to get your tires to optimum temperatures? In real life you never ever never drive the track on wrong direction. Never.

Realism has always its price. In real life you have to pay the price, always. In sim, we (Scavier) can choose if we need to. Like fixing the damage in real time, as it is done in nkpro. Why? I just don't get what ultimate 100% realism adds to a racing sim. I'm quite happy with 90%, without all the boring and unnecessary things, like changing the fluids between races, fixing the car in real time or to not be able to race because you don't have money to install new suspension part?

tristancliffe

30th August 2006, 22:22

Yes, but in real life, there is no such thing a hotlapping. And as such it has very little to do with real life. Only hotlapping that is done in real life, is with karts on some pay-per-drive circuits. Or in rally, but that is a whole different universe...

Or Sprints ;)

Or Hillclimbs (but also slightly different, a bit like Rallying, in so much as it's A - B not A - A

Hyperactive

30th August 2006, 23:53

Or Sprints ;)

Or Hillclimbs (but also slightly different, a bit like Rallying, in so much as it's A - B not A - A

But they are more of an event type of thing. Hotlapping is not (imho) an event (the damn plonkers do it all the time! :p), like a race is for example. Maybe stuff like drag racing comes closest to the idea of hotlapping?

But maybe slightly OT...

Blowtus

31st August 2006, 01:12

Anyway, this is my last post in this thread. I've said all I have to say, and to conclude, I'm disappointed that people don't seem to enjoy the game as a whole. Do people really hate the simple act of driving the cars so much that they are not prepared to drive them for a lap from the pitlane to heat the tyres up in preparation for a hotlap? Just because shortcuts are possible in a game, doesn't mean we should be obliged to take them because they save time. In "The Perfect Sim" (indistinguishable from reality) would we really be asking to teleport 3/4 of the way round a track?

This concept of a 'perfect sim' baffles me. The whole idea of a sim is that you simulate various elements of real life as closely as possible, while removing many of the time, money, and danger barriers / hassles / elements associated with that activity. Where would you stop in your perfect sim? Would you have to drive your car across the country in a truck?

dawesdust_12

31st August 2006, 03:33

Actually... In a rally sim I think it'd be fun to (as an option) to drive from your shop area to the start of the stage, it'd be fun, albiet a bit cumbersome. Imagine driving from Westhill to Kyoto... 4 day road trip :P

I agree with Blowtus, you want to make it as realistic as possible, but still take the hassles out that prevents people with the skills from doing it.

PLAYLIFE

4th September 2006, 09:39

2+6

I'd start holapping, if I did not have to do some crazy acrobatics to preheat my tires.

Crazy Harry

4th September 2006, 16:06

... Thus you might want to start Blackwood 400 meters from the start line in the BF1 (say), but just 100 meters in the UF1. ...

Erm... imho the other way, but anyway.:D

+1 for biggie

Pre-selected temperature would be very nice. But please up to 150+ degree. On the oval you need one or two laps to warm your tires before you can start your hotlap. Boring to make a mistake in T1 I tell you. For me it´s not a difference to start from track or pit. But I agree with the circuit hotlappers that it´s wasted time.

@Hyperactive: Drag is one on one. Rallye is imho near to hotlapping.

detail

5th September 2006, 06:44

I support the idea of starting with warm tyres on track for hotlapping. It shouldn't be a timewaste. On the contrary, practice session is better to start from pits. Nobody starts it from the starting grid on the straight.

AttaHorse

6th September 2006, 18:26

I DO agree with the idea of starting hotlap with already heated tyres. That'd save A LOT of time. Look at some KY1 replays. 5 minutes of tyre heating and 1 minute of driving. What is the competition? "Who has more patience to warm tyres perfectly"? Or "who can drive faster"? And there is absolutely no chance to show good time without hot tyres, so you have to spend this time. Not spend, waste. And there is no output of this. None of skills improving. Just boring porcedure. Mmmm.. Would you include washing dishes in "eating breakfast" simulator?

Crazy Harry

6th September 2006, 19:32

Not spend, waste.

+1

But IMHO on KY1 (not so spell the bad word) the setup is still the most important part of the package:

-Setup
-Line
-Tires

@Atta: Do you play Sims? =)

510N3D

6th September 2006, 19:54

rediske

6th September 2006, 21:01

GP4Flo

6th September 2006, 21:12

What about the compromise to start all hotlaps from the pits, but with pre-heated tyres? This would be my favorite. :)

Biohazard

6th September 2006, 21:46

then your tyres will be overheated just after the warmup-lap :D

csimpok

6th September 2006, 22:28

[RCG]Boosted

6th September 2006, 22:30

duh, there would be an option to set a temperature, not that u have to, u would still be able to start with cold tires.

csimpok

6th September 2006, 22:40

Boosted;210908']duh, there would be an option to set a temperature, not that u have to, u would still be able to start with cold tires.

And in real life you can say that you want the tyres to be 70 degrees celsius? Maybe on a BF1 but not on a GTI...
And IMO hotplapping system doesn't have any big problem that should be addressed now and time should be spent on more important developments (for example normal replay system or real tyre changing strategy).

[RCG]Boosted

7th September 2006, 00:06

do u have a reset button in real life? duh.....
of course its a sim, but why not have lil helpers to make life easier?
the point of the game - having fun - warming up ur tires 5 mins for a 2 min lap (maybe 25 times until u get ur / the time u want) - no fun.
And IMO hotplapping system doesn't have any big problem that should be addressed now and time should be spent on more important developments (for example normal replay system or real tyre changing strategy).
guess who made this thread? :scratchch

Blowtus

7th September 2006, 00:33

And in real life you can say that you want the tyres to be 70 degrees celsius? Maybe on a BF1 but not on a GTI...

considering the tyres already start pre-warmed, I don't understand this argument? If you were arguing for the tyres to start at ambient temperature on the road cars in all situations I would agree with you - but we would also need better temp vs grip modelling I *think*. Currently the tyres start pre-warmed - It'd be a funny prewarming system that you couldn't specify a rough temperature to get the tyres to I believe.

Hyperactive

7th September 2006, 01:00

Boosted;211002]guess who made this thread? :scratchch

"Spinoff : Future hotlapping start position"

I guess Scawen just wanted to see our opinions about it before he makes the decision.

510N3D

7th September 2006, 07:27

i think every "spinoff thread" was actually inside this thread TEST Patch U20 (compatible with U) (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=9869). So every suggestion or simular interesting stuff is getting a spinoff-thread where it belongs to.

Correct me if im wrong.

[RCG]Boosted

7th September 2006, 12:26

yea, but i guess he wouldnt make if it was a stupid (useless) improvement / suggestion.
anyway, back to topic! :tilt:

510N3D

7th September 2006, 12:32

Boosted;211380']yea, but i guess he wouldnt make if it was a stupid (useless) improvement / suggestion.
anyway, back to topic! :tilt:

as i allready said yes :thumb:

me votes to ban language barriers (press 1) :tilt:

Flotch

8th September 2006, 12:47

But the problem with preheated tyres is that I (and a lot of others as I see from spr's) very often start the lap with lower than ideal tyre temperature and finish it with overheated tyres as a result of low pressure (mainly with faster cars, GTR's and BF1 for example). And usually I have to warm one side of the tyres better than the other (or rear tyres differently from front tyres) before starting the hotlap.

So we could end up seeing hotlappers waiting minutes for the tyres to cool down :D which would be worse than the current situation :). And I think that the option to adjust the temperature of every part of all the tyres would be extremely unreal.

I agree with those who say starting from the pits would mean unnecessary minutes driving round the circuit.

So my conclusion is the current hotlap system is good and shouldn't be changed :D
It would be a lot easier to have pre-heated tires to the T° of your choice (only one for all the tires I agree...), and too, to have the option to choose the amount of rubber you want...Actually R2 tires are endurance tires :D, not really qualifying tires :razz:.
IMO hotlapping should simply allows you to do a (the) very fast lap, as unrealistic it seems to be to some people, I think it would be funnnier than it is now with all the acrobatic figures needed or the mini-endurance done by some player to reduce the amount of rubber...

510N3D

8th September 2006, 12:59

correct me if im wrong but i cant remember that i have lost rubber (skidmarks is no rubber right now correct?) from the tires in this or any version of lfs. I may missunderstand that well anyway Attahorse made a good point there, hotlapping is not, whos the best in tire heating but who can do the best lap on the given combo. That acrobatic stuff makes no sence at all and the way some (me2) heating the tires is unrealistic atm (somehow/ -times) and if you would loose rubber as well, the current tire physics would not provide a good basic for hotlapping imho.

"Actually R2 tires are endurance tires" :thumb:

im gone try that :smileypul

Flotch

8th September 2006, 13:35

the tires are the best (grip, handling,...) on the 3rd tire of the attached picture. The picture is taken at different stage of the race, the less rubber you have, the quicker you will be ;)

510N3D

8th September 2006, 13:51

the tires are the best (grip, handling,...) on the 3rd tire of the attached picture. The picture is taken at different stage of the race, the less rubber you have, the quicker you will be ;)

ok after all this time in lfs i have never noticed that youre really loosing rubber. Never compared that like you did, sorry mate and thanks alot for that info :) And i think i need to say, lfs do have a good tire physic then ;)

GP4Flo

8th September 2006, 14:49

And I think that the option to adjust the temperature of every part of all the tyres would be extremely unreal.Every part of the tyre yes, but what about a setup option to set the pre-heating temperature of each tyre? I think this option would help hotlappers as well as being realistic - I'm pretty sure that you can set the temperature of the tyre heaters in reallife as well.

Turbo Dad

8th September 2006, 14:52

the tires are the best (grip, handling,...) on the 3rd tire of the attached picture. The picture is taken at different stage of the race, the less rubber you have, the quicker you will be ;)

...therefore part worn tyres should be implemented to be able to get the best from the tyres nearly right away, rather than running 20 laps to reduce the amount of rubber.
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=1125

tristancliffe

8th September 2006, 15:24

Just rename Hotlapping to 'Single Lap Qualifying', start from the pits with heated tyres pretty much as now (I like the idea of heating the tyres to independent temps, but remember that is sarface temperature, not the all important core temperature which will be much lower - even F1 tyre warmers on single make 'hard' tyres can't get them to operating temperature), and make a hotlap a two lap affair with an outlap and a flying lap. On the long courses (e.g. 10 miles or more) have the timing start from the pitlane exit, e.g. a bit a like the Nurburgring.

It's already been said that hotlapping isn't realistic because there is no such thing in real life. So remove it and make it more realistic in essence, along with realistic details. Then no one can argue :p

By the way, part of the skill is being able to control and heat your tyres prior to the hotlap, not just on the hotlap itself. If we started 1/4 mile from the start with perfect tyres I think it would lose a lot of it's mysticism.

traxxion

8th September 2006, 17:13

By the way, part of the skill is being able to control and heat your tyres prior to the hotlap, not just on the hotlap itself. If we started 1/4 mile from the start with perfect tyres I think it would lose a lot of it's mysticism.
Couldnt agree more :thumb:

AttaHorse

9th September 2006, 22:59

OnTopic: starting from the pits is also the thing that just eats a lot of time. It's ok for any short tracks, but, as it was said before, UF1@AS5 will the the combo for patient racers.
It is ok to start quali from the pits, because this kind of start is more realistic. Just because quali is the thing from real life. But hotlapping is not real.

@tristancliffe: By the way, part of the skill is being able to control and heat your tyres prior to the hotlap, not just on the hotlap itself - By the way, you have 3(three!) hotlaps uploaded. But guys who have 20-50-100 hotlaps DO have this skill of contolling tyre temp. And I don't think they like it, because they wasted a lot of time on practicing this skill.

The thing I want to see is equalling the chances of all the drivers. If you choose tyre temp, you disable the advantage of races who is more patient and/or has more free time to spend on lfs. And the only thing that matters in this case - speed. You are faster means you get better lap. Nothing to add or discuss.
I see one more way to solve this problem: making Hotlap just "one lap single race". No matter what the tyre temp is, because all races are in same conditions, and, again, the only thing that matters in this case - speed. This will kill a lot of hotlapping's beauty but make this competition fair.
But if we want to see hotlapping attractive as before and completely fair, selecting tyre temp is perfect decision. And there will be no nesessity to change hotlapping start position in this case.

tristancliffe

9th September 2006, 23:36

I have three. Yup, so what? I don't enjoy hotlapping, I'd much rather be racing. You've only done about 30 laps online, so you're the opposite. Does that matter? No, other people are different. I just don't want (not for me, but for the others, and my respect for them) hotlapping to become a fully configured thing, so you start with everything perfect. It just wouldn't work like that in real life.

I know realism isn't totally obtainable, otherwise we'd spend 100 hours working on the car for every hour we drive, but having configurable tyre temps just to make the whole process easier/quicker I personally think would spoil it.

filur

10th September 2006, 02:16

But guys who have 20-50-100 hotlaps DO have this skill of contolling tyre temp. And I don't think they like it, because they wasted a lot of time on practicing this skill.

I have 81 hotlaps, i like it, my vote goes to starting from pits with ambient temps. The useless skill i've wasted so much time practicing has actually been very useful in super pole or other short forms of qualifying.

Dumpy

10th September 2006, 04:22

I would be much more inclined to use the hotlap mode if a rolling start (top of 3rd gear or something) at the beginning of the last sector with warm tires (optimum minus a few degrees) was implemented. Maybe it could even include camber angles into calculating the tire temperature, i.e. if you use extreme cambers your outside edges will be a bit cooler. The next best choice I think would be a standing start at the last sector with warm tires.

By "best" I don't mean "closest to how this hotlapping might occur in reality," I mean, "most efficient means to make an attempt at driving the fastest clean lap that you can." There is a point where you should draw the line between realism and fun; tire-warming "acrobatics" are not fun. If I'm pushing for a few more hundredths and go over my limit and spin out, I think a just punishment would be to have to start my lap over -- not to waste another few minutes trying to warm my tires up and start over.

I have to agree with Sinbad on the added worth and (simulated) realism of starting HL from the pits.
I just dont see any dissadvantage to anyone, we would all be using the same system right? except it will take longer to complete an outlap then run a HL (time enough to heat tyres in a realistic way),so a few added minuites to the hours needed to HL all the combos anyway shouldnt upset anyone should it.
Suppose you're working on your nutter rank. You want to drive as fast as you can on as many different combos as you can. If you wanted to beat robnewman out of the top slot, you'd have to drive all 858 combos at a moderate speed. At the very least you'd have to drive this many outlaps, however more than likely you'd end up driving many times this number. All of the world records in the... um... in the world add up to 1384:49.89. If you drove only one outlap for every single combo at the world record time (which is not going to happen unless you're from outer space) you'd have just over 23 hours of completely wasted time. Imagine an entire week from sunup to sunup piddled away warming up tires. Unfortunately I can't think of a way to word this to sound as dramatic as I wanted (I guess that's why I'm not in advertising), but that seems pretty inefficient to me.

The way I understand it, hotlapping is a test of setting up your car and driving a clean lap as fast as you can, and I believe that a rolling start with warm tires would provide the best conditions and the most efficient means for a driver to do so.

Honey

10th September 2006, 12:11

The way I understand it, hotlapping is a test of setting up your car and driving a clean lap as fast as you can, and I believe that a rolling start with warm tires would provide the best conditions and the most efficient means for a driver to do so.
exactly! i spend 60% of my time in hotlapping for developing setup purposes, what i need is to see by split times if a change is improving certain split or not...having to drive a whole lap before i can test it is a pure waste of time!
of course since i am playing lfs from some years, now i can measure/predict the split times most of the times with an accuracy of 0.05 sec, so i learned to see even in the last sector where hotlaps start, if a change of setup is improving or not, of course i test setups at default temp, warm/optimal temp and overheated temp to see if the setup is behaving how i want in all conditions or if it needs some tweak...what i don't understand is: in real life racers have the thing that bring tyres on temperature...why having it in lfs would be unrealistic? ...some people like to do useless laps and do averything by themself? let it be an option!

having hotlaps start from last sector with preheated tyres is NO advantage! only avoids a time waste!
so if purists want to do everything, let them drive from home to the circuit, wear their racing suit, the helmet, tell the pitcrew how to setup the car, wait the needed time for the pitcrew to make the setup changes, mount the tyres, wait for the "thermal thing" to heat up tyres, then enter the cockpit, lock the safety belts, turn up engine, exit from pits, make a useless lap and then start the hotlap that will end at T1!!!!:D then walk (30 minutes? more? ...who cares) to the pits, wait for the car to be repaired (if possible), then start all over again! :razz:

AttaHorse

11th September 2006, 21:13

@ tristancliffe: i do most of online racing in demo, so it's out of stats :(
And my stats says Laps:792 :)

I mean that warming tyres is a _skill_ for you, but it's a absolute _routine_ for me.

@filur: yes, that _routine_ helps in qualifying. But I want to see things that can help in qualifying in qualifying only. But now I have to do this in hotlap mode, which is not about qualifying. I think you would not be glad to see, that your lap is HLVC-invalid (meaning try another one) in RACE mode.

Blowtus

12th September 2006, 00:10

I know realism isn't totally obtainable, otherwise we'd spend 100 hours working on the car for every hour we drive, but having configurable tyre temps just to make the whole process easier/quicker I personally think would spoil it.

Why do you think it would be worse than arbitrarily preheated tyres??

tristancliffe

12th September 2006, 00:28

Because you can't have arbitrarily preheated tyres in real life, and for me hotlapping isn't JUST about the one single quick lap, it's about the technique used to get the car into such a condition so that it can generate that lap time. Obviously if we all start with perfect cars I'm not going to suddenly beat all the WR holders, I'll be just a slow probably. But The outlap is part of the hotlap in my opinion, and that should be reflected in hotlapping. As it is we have a compromise of driving only the final sector, with semi-mostly-warm tyres. I'm live with that, but I'd still prefer the entire outlap to be driven myself. As I say, I'll live with the current version because some people are just hotlapping junkies, and clearly want it all to be done as quickly as possible so they can move on, and not worry about making mistakes (something else which further removes hotlapping even from LFS racing - the fear of making a mistake, and losing time or defaulting an entire race).

As always it's just my opinion, and I trust Scawen to come up with a good solution.

Blowtus

12th September 2006, 00:33

yeah, by 'arbitrarily preheated' I meant the current level of pre-heating (up to what, 90 degrees or so for some tyres?) seemed just as unrealistic as being able to adjust the temp - was curious why you didn't think so, I understand it's just an opinion and your not bashing it as gospel :)

KiDCoDEa

12th September 2006, 00:35

the obvious decision for me, and i hope he does it this way, is to be coherent with the rest of lfs.
that means, "from pits" if hardcore mode was selected, and optional if hardcore mode was not selected.
hardcore mode will come sooner or later, and will lock and pre-set many options and i hope this one is one of those.
Seems preety obvious tbh :) there are things a lot harder to solve in lfs.

Live For Kill

12th September 2006, 14:09

well, the hot lap and the qualification would start from the pit with this way

Mogar

24th September 2006, 07:18

Well, I believe that a warmup lap and the hot lap itself all make part of an strategy, and they do make part of the game.

While I agree that a warmup lap on AS GP with UF1 would be extremely boring, IRL we don't have perfectly pre-warmed tyres, nor start from where we want, and the way that you do a warmup lap have impact on setting up the car.

So, I still prefer the "the most realistic, the better" way that LFS started to be developed, rather than keep some "flaws" that can make the "game" more fun.

Once on a national championship I remember that on qualify I brought the car to the pits after my qualifying lap, parked the car inside the pits, and then I realized that I didn't need that. I was so focused on the racing atmosphere that I almost forgot that I was on a simulator. And honestly, it was fun.

Bawbag

24th September 2006, 12:53

Although i've not done much hotlapping lately, I have done alot of hotlapping but I agree with Tristan on this, Even though i'm perfectly happy with the current hotlap system (Except the reverse thingy but that's been sorted) I would like to see a change and I back the start from the pit area idea.

Obviously I do have worrys, like Ky GP Long UF1 (Hopefully it never happens) I really couldn't be bothered driving the whole way round and then invaliding my lap for some stupid reason.

I will wait happilly to see what we get out of this, as a change is allways good IMO. :)

SpaceMarineITA

24th September 2006, 18:34

in real life racers have the thing that bring tyres on temperature...why having it in lfs would be unrealistic? ...some people like to do useless laps and do averything by themself? let it be an option!

You already have it, u start with different R types of tires at 65, 80 or 100 degree, not at ambient temperature

In real life they have the things that warm the tires, yes, but these temps are far from optimal, they have to heat up tires during launch lap too.

AndroidXP

24th September 2006, 19:00

I think it's very important for LFS' overall image to get these minor details right. Right now you'll find "arcadey" features everywhere, like the qualifying and hotlap start positions. Sure, they make the game "faster", but IMO alot of immersion is being thrown out of the window by being so... unserious. Don't know how to say it better :shrug:

I'd rather have the screen fade in while the AI is driving the car for a few seconds, then you take over the controls, rather than being teleported in the middle of nowhere on the track, standing still.

The tyre physics are now finally at a state where they can be left alone for some time. Now, after Scawen improved the user interface alot with the test patches, I'd wish that finally the whole race management gets a realism overhaul. Appearing professional (and I'm not talking about the menus, they're fine) goes a big way for the first impression of new/potential racers. Well, we'll see what the next patch brings.

GianniC

24th September 2006, 19:41

I agree with Biggie's idea. It has more advantages then disadvantages, and if it's only with hotlapping it doesn't inflect racing (league's). Perhaps make it also possible in Qualify sessions, in real racing they also warm up the tires before.

Kostek

3rd October 2006, 19:07

My opinion is:

1. Leave HL starting position as it is now.
2. Standing start with preheated tires.

In fact these are the best solutions I've found in this thread. Also it shouldnt be hard to code (if the temp is fixed).

Of course by "preheated" I mean "close to optimum", like 5-10*C below. It's up to Scawen to code either fixed or adjustable temperatures.

But definitely starting a HL with "blue" tires isn't good. They should be much closer to "green".

Vykos69

4th October 2006, 10:07

biggie

4th October 2006, 10:27

The second conclusion, the real one, would suit my understanding of sim more. On the other hand there is this minority of maybe 5 people, who just hotlap. So why not consider some precious worktime to solve their prob.... j/k ;)

Okay... I'd call this way of reasoning ridiculous. Maybe there aren't many people who hotlap exclusively but then again, how do you explain the filled hotlap charts? Because nobody uses the hotlapping mode anyway? Right. There's a good bunch of people who seem to be using the hotlapping mode - even if not exclusively. So the opinion of those people should be counted too.
Your attitude towards hotlapping sometimes annoys me a little... I respect you for what you do (racing only), can't you just do the same?

Vain

4th October 2006, 10:50

Hotlapping should be supported as it helps to find out what laptimes the cars are able to do. I like to be able to compare the performance of two cars by just looking at the hotlap-chart. Thus I'd say: Do everything necessary to make hotlapping comfortable.

That's one opinion from a non-hotlapper's point of view. :)

Vain

510N3D

4th October 2006, 11:23

as long as starting position is "unreal", I'd go for preheated tires, cause somehow the car should have gotten to that point of the track anyway. ;) The moment you put starting position to pits, then you stay with the current temps for sure.

The second conclusion, the real one, would suit my understanding of sim more. On the other hand there is this minority of maybe 5 people, who just hotlap. So why not consider some precious worktime to solve their prob.... j/k ;)

maybe its to early and/or i do not understand you but if so...i dont get your point (still). I would say we need at least preheated tires when starting from the pits and tires with current temps when starting from the "spawn point". When you leave some of the pitlanes tires cant build up temp but the opposite of that so thats why i do not get it.

:scratchch :shrug: :schwitz:

Do everything necessary to make hotlapping comfortable

+1 "why should we try to make something realistic which does not even exists in RL ?" ;)

Vykos69

4th October 2006, 11:53

Okay... I'd call this way of reasoning ridiculous. Maybe there aren't many people who hotlap exclusively but then again, how do you explain the filled hotlap charts? Because nobody uses the hotlapping mode anyway? Right. There's a good bunch of people who seem to be using the hotlapping mode - even if not exclusively. So the opinion of those people should be counted too.
Your attitude towards hotlapping sometimes annoys me a little... I respect you for what you do (racing only), can't you just do the same?
How much more shall I write, to show that I was kidding? Your reaction shows lack of humour and is the actual annoying part... come on, j/k means JUST KIDDING!

As I said, and this contributes to the discussion again: I'd like to see a real version, that you start from pits, with the tires at the temps as it is now. If this is not in the way, the devs like it, then give the tires more temp (not selectable by players, just more, to keep it even), and start from last split. If you'd start from pits with the normal temp, your tires would be at that about 10°-15° more higher temp at last split anyway.

Still, I'd vote for startpoint at pits, with tires preheated as they are now, when you exit pits.

Gunn

4th October 2006, 12:22

I'd like to see a real version, that you start from pits, with the tires at the temps as it is now. If this is not in the way, the devs like it, then give the tires more temp (not selectable by players, just more, to keep it even), and start from last split. If you'd start from pits with the normal temp, your tires would be at that about 10°-15° more higher temp at last split anyway.

Still, I'd vote for startpoint at pits, with tires preheated as they are now, when you exit pits.And I'd vote the same thing right with you. Why? Logic.

biggie

4th October 2006, 14:48

How much more shall I write, to show that I was kidding? Your reaction shows lack of humour and is the actual annoying part... come on, j/k means JUST KIDDING!
Still, I'd vote for startpoint at pits, with tires preheated as they are now, when you exit pits.

Well sorry, misunderstandings happen. It wasn't quite easy for me to figure out which part of that paragraph was meant as a joke an which wasn't...

George Kuyumji

27th October 2006, 19:17

+1 for all driving starts from the Pits. Please keep LFS on the Simulation Path.

You usually do have to warm up the tires during the Out Lap... Starting from the second Split time should not be kept in the long term in LFS IMHO

I also would like to see the Road Cars starting from the Pits without preheated tyres.

And another thing I like to be able to do is going from the Pit Box directly to the Box "Garage" Options.

At the moment you drive into the Pits and drive inside your Pit House, when you make a normal Pitting in drive, during Practise or Qualy Sessions you would have to click ESC and click on "Box" to get into the Pits Garage while your standing inside the Pits already.
In Grand Prix Legends for example, when you stop at your Pit sign and press a button it gets you immediately to the Garage Options - cause your already drove into the Garage. Would be nice to have that also in LFS when you drive into the Pit Home

Dani King

20th March 2007, 11:52

I've read the whole thread and I think you guys should have 1 thing in mind before suggesting changes

>>>>> Hotlapping is a different game than Racing <<<<<

I like this game because it's a driving simulator, I've spent a lot of money buying hardware just to enjoy the experience of driving racing cars that I couldn't otherwise in real life. I've bought a G25 Wheel, a bigger screen/monitor and even built a cockpit just to get that "racing feeling" when I play... but it's still a GAME

LiveForSpeed offers 2 different driving experiences:

1.- Hotlapping

2.- Online Racing

The first one is a battle against the chrono, the second one is a battle against other racers and they both got their good points to be enjoyable in their own ways

When I play hotlap I try to make a good set that would let me run a perfect superpole, looking for the limit of the car and my own skills. And for this goal I don't need a lot of wasted time heating the tyres or driving nonsense laps just to get an optimal condition to drive a fast lap, because it's not fun at all.
I can't see the point of adding pit starts in hotlap mode, it won't be more realistic because, again, it isn't realistic to hit a button and restart after you've crashed your car against a wall, it will be just more time consuming

But when I play online mode it's a total different world... if you've ever played in leagues you will notice that the whole mood is different, you have to THINK different, your sets are no longer built to drive the fastest lap, now you need 2 different sets, one set built to last a long race with the best possible pace and a second one built to drive the fastest possible lap in a 10 minutes (or more) qualification but with enough room to make mistakes without screwing it.

It's precisely in this mode where I'm looking for the most realistic experience and where the most realistic aspects of the game helps to the inmersion feeling of taking part in a real competition

So following this reasoning, adding pits starts in qualification mode it's completly logical and may help the simulation experience (because this way you could control when to go out from pits, get the timming of "the traffic" and a lot more things), but adding pits in hotlap would just be more time consuming and wouldn't contribute anything to the simulation experience since the goal of hotlapping is different from racing

And always keep in mind that we're spending time playing a game that should be, by all means, FUN

tailing

23rd March 2007, 09:57

I don't really race anymore but when I did it was predominantly in leagues and the only way to sort divisions was by using hotlaps. From my point of view it was far from ideal.
I think there could be room for two types of hotlaps without actually creating two types of hotlaps. Stick with me I'll start making sense in a second ;)
Have a selectable option for say "Realistic Hotlaps" and "Pure Hotlaps" that are essetially the same in that they all go on the same chart but they have a slightly different hlvc which in effect appears on the charts much like throttle blip/cut etc. do.
The 'Pure' hotlaps would be much as they are now for people who hotlap for hotlappings sake like Biggie. LFS has kinda invented something new here which some people prefer to normal racing and there's little reason to destroy this for the supposed push for more realism. Maybe even include such things as tyres up to optimum temp and pre-cut/worn tyres.
The 'Realistic' hotlaps would be more like mini qualifying runs, start from the pits with tyre temps as they currently are and no driving backwards. On long circuit/car combos you could have alternate entrances onto the track near the last split. There's probably even a few other things you could do that I haven't thought about to bring things more into line with what league racing is all about.

When a league queries LFS World for hotlap times to sort divisions it can look for the ones with the 'Realistic' flag.

Another idea I've had which is getting a bit off topic now but I'll throw in just for good measure :p You could have a completely separate type of hotlapping where depending on the car/track combo, your required to complete x minimum number of laps and an average is taken to give the final lap time.

Cue-Ball

23rd March 2007, 16:19

Shotglass

23rd March 2007, 21:40

I want immersion and realism. Being magically transported to the other side of the track ruins that, IMO.

how so ? the only reason people dont do it in real life is because they cant
adding chores like starting the engine cough-nkp-cough or driving a whole lap just to hotlap doesnt make the game any more realistic or immersive it makes the game annoying

Cue-Ball

23rd March 2007, 21:55

how so ? the only reason people dont do it in real life is because they cant
adding chores like starting the engine cough-nkp-cough or driving a whole lap just to hotlap doesnt make the game any more realistic or immersive it makes the game annoyingSays you. I personally feel that it is bad for immersion and realism, and would prefer to always start out from the garage with the engine off.

Boris Lozac

23rd March 2007, 22:00

Says you. I personally feel that it is bad for immersion and realism, and would prefer to always start out from the garage with the engine off.

I kinda agree, the more real, the better.

Dumpy

24th April 2007, 01:40

I'm not a hotlapper. I only really use hotlapping for setup testing and learning the tracks. That said, I agree with Tristan and the other guys who want to see cars always start from the pits. This is how it would be in real life and this is how it should be in LFS.

I want immersion and realism. Being magically transported to the other side of the track ruins that, IMO.

I don't understand why you don't use Single Player mode for this rather than Hotlapping mode then. As has been so eloquently put before, hotlapping and racing are basically two different games with two different mindsets. I think it would be terrific if all these "realism" features like starting from the pits (and... and... I can't remember if there was something else) were added to the Single Player and Multi Player racing modes, but to make hotlapping even more tedious than it is is just silly. I have almost 100 hotlaps online, with many more that I never felt were worth uploading; I'm no top 10 nutter or anything, but I have spent a lot of time in hotlap mode.

LRB_Aly

24th April 2007, 09:15

I agree with Cue-Ball, I'm also no hotlapper, still I use the mode to test setups. And I'd also like to see the cars starting from the pits.
So why not using single-player mode?
Plain and simply, don't you ever drove a lap that was so fantastic in single player mode, that you whiched you could upload it?
I sometimes have and if I try to reproduce it, it doesn't work anymore.
That's why I practice in hotlap mode, to be able to upload an hotlap if by any chance I produce a fast one.

RudiTurbo

25th April 2007, 21:52

I would like prewarming of tyres and start from last split. I really dont see why the hell we should drive this whole lap for the sakes of trying a hotlap. If You know how some people hotlap, it will be omg how frustrating. Sometimes I dont complete a lap for a whole hour, sometimes I dont complete the 1st sector for 15 mins, it would be silly to drive a whole lap before that lol. I dont really see the reason for chasing this reality when there are lot of other things to be made real. I'm also quite sure in real life we dont heat the tyres so bad that we can only do 1 fast lap or even half only. The way hotlapping was in S1 , was the best way, all even, no tyre temps, no stuff. Hotlapping is about the competition, we have real physics, it's as real as it gets, no need to make features that waste time. As I've picked up a sentence from Your post before Scawen, we need to draw a line between the fun of the sim and reality. Only the real hotlappers, who've spent millions of hours hotlapping will know what this would mean to hotlapping , so I back up biggie on this.

LRB_Aly

26th April 2007, 12:24

Well then an option, as suggested already some months ago by someone, where you can chose where to start from would do the trick.

RiGun

26th April 2007, 14:22

For all the ppl that's complaining about the new start position, go and drive in the wrong way till you feel that you can get the desired speed at the finish line, It wont take you much more longuer than warming up tyres for the hotlap.

Scawen

26th April 2007, 19:02

Just in case anyone is concerned about this and which way it will go, I am quite convinced that hotlappers should be able to set the start position and the tyre temperatures. It would stop this messing around doing donuts and whatever before doing the hotlap. This decision is based on the opinions of the actual hotlappers, those guys who really do a lot of this, they want it that way, so it's more convenient to do the hot lap. They want to spend more time lapping and less time warming up the tyres. This is different from reality, that's true, but then LFS differs from reality in many ways, for convenience. For example we just appear on the grid, we don't have to drive to the race track - you know what I mean. If you want reality then just go racing in reality! :) If you want a sim then you are avoiding many of the problems of reality, and cutting it down to the actual racing. That's the purpose of a racing sim. Get in and RACE. Similarly the purpose of hotlapping is to get in and LAP! :)

wsinda

26th April 2007, 19:28

If you want reality then just go racing in reality! :) If you want a sim then you are avoiding many of the problems of reality, and cutting it down to the actual racing. That's the purpose of a racing sim. Get in and RACE. Similarly the purpose of hotlapping is to get in and LAP! :)
Amen.

This should be stickied somewhere.

Nick A

26th April 2007, 20:23

I do a fair amount of hotlapping and agree entirely. Would much rather spend more time lapping and less time warming tyres. :thumb:

red_wing_2121

27th April 2007, 01:08

I never really thought warming tires was a big issue. I always considered having to burn off excess fuel before the hotlap was more bothersome. Now that you can put in 1% minimum, I think that is taken care of.

hammer it

29th April 2007, 03:44

If you want a sim then you are avoiding many of the problems of reality, and cutting it down to the actual racing. That's the purpose of a racing sim. Get in and RACE. Similarly the purpose of hotlapping is to get in and LAP! :)

I think that's it in a nutshell. With the ability to make things easier, more convenient, and more appealing, why not do it!

rediske

29th April 2007, 12:28

As I'm hotlapping 99% of the time within LFS I absolutely like the outlook!

Less time doing donuts and spins -> more time of actually hotlapping -> more fun :thumb:

Flotch

29th April 2007, 14:51

hourra :thumb: ! god has spoken :nod: (and I agree :razz: )!

rediske

30th April 2007, 18:55

just had an idea:

why not be able to drive and warm the tires nicely as you like them, and then being able to save that tire temperature as a reloadable preset...

edit: like that it would be more 'realistic' than setting some unrealistic, even values all over the tire)

:shrug:

RudiTurbo

1st May 2007, 11:18

Nice Scawen :hug:
:D

EG9

4th May 2007, 23:47

Nice ideas about the hotlaping stuff!

I have 2 things in my mind when I think about this HL Stuff:

1. Tires should not be warmed up by command or even saved or something. This would cause that you can create sets which normally not work out.

2. I would prefer that I can "jump" to the lap where the best lap time comes up(when I watch a HL). No forwarding or other stuff.

@Scawen
Of course is LFS not realistic in all way's but you should keep the idea of Sim Racing...otherwise I can play Need For Speed... :I
Please think about this in general. Maybe new race modes can combine both ideas, something like ARCADE and REALISTIC mode.

Thx anyway for this awesome game! It was worth every cence! :thumb:

speedykev

5th May 2007, 10:59

zurdospeed

5th May 2007, 16:29

setting your own tyre temperatures thats just making it to easy for hotlaps, to be honest i would not have much respect for hotlaps.:shrug: but its a good idea for racing, doesn't that happen with tyre blankets so the tyres are ready for T1.:thumb:

Why is a good idea for racing but not for hotlaping? :shrug:
I do a lot of HL because I can`t connect online too often :( and it`s VERY anoying that everytime I want to beat my times I have to take the first lap as if I was some kind of mad drifter :D (peace)

It just makes it easy and less anoying to Hotlap, but IMHO it wouldn`t take away any of my respect for the WR holders just because they can heat their tyres... they still have to drive the HL you know :shrug:

EDIT: BTW temperature heating should be quite limited IMHO (less than optimal)

speedykev

5th May 2007, 22:24

Why is a good idea for racing but not for hotlaping? :shrug:
I do a lot of HL because I can`t connect online too often :( and it`s VERY anoying that everytime I want to beat my times I have to take the first lap as if I was some kind of mad drifter :D (peace)

It just makes it easy and less anoying to Hotlap, but IMHO it wouldn`t take away any of my respect for the WR holders just because they can heat their tyres... they still have to drive the HL you know :shrug:

EDIT: BTW temperature heating should be quite limited IMHO (less than optimal)

well if you don't race online then i can see your point. :)

geeman1

5th May 2007, 23:26

edit: like that it would be more 'realistic' than setting some unrealistic, even values all over the tire)Even values are the way to go imo. Like adjustable tyre warmers.
If you could set the temps for every part of the tire, it would just be too complicated, unrealistic and it would just be another part of the setup.

Fabry83

7th May 2007, 12:24

...By the way, part of the skill is being able to control and heat your tyres prior to the hotlap, not just on the hotlap itself. If we started 1/4 mile from the start with perfect tyres I think it would lose a lot of it's mysticism...

I agree perfectly, Bravo. :thumb:

RudiTurbo

10th May 2007, 12:48

Well, hotlapping isnt dragracing ;)

rc10racer

10th May 2007, 13:47

Why don't we just have an option to start from the pitline or the last split and keep everyone happy.

Shotglass

10th May 2007, 18:15

Why don't we just have an option to start from the pitline or the last split and keep everyone happy.

for starters because most who want hotlaps starting from the pits dont even have any hotlaps on lfsw
to me this whole thing reads like the hardcore brigade tries to force changes in a game mode they dont even use

Boris Lozac

10th May 2007, 19:32

I know that i posted how i would want hotlaps to start from garage, but now that i think about it, it's just silly...
For qualifications it makes perfect sense to start from garage, you are playing online, with real people, but when i am offline, trying to do a hotlap for some league or something, i don't have time, etc.. why i would i waste it for that thing... there are some really long combos, you have to drive like 3 minutes, just to start your first hotlap, it doesn't make any sence.. really, just a waste of my limited free time, it's not a thing where we should seek for realism, i am a realsim freek, but hotlaping should stay like it is now..

Doorman

16th May 2007, 09:59

I've never hotlapped in my life; well once and I thought 'why?' But I can see that starting from the pits is unnecessary. Qualifying yes, it's realistic but hotlapping is not realistic. I mean, a lap is voided if you as much as put a wheel wrong! Let hotlappers start from where the heck they like, it makes no difference to anyone but them. To my mind hotlapping is akin to drifting. It's a different game and there's a special breed that plays it.

Doorman

16th May 2007, 12:25

Addendum: I've just spent a half an hour hot lapping and I CAN see the appeal. Starting on track is the way to go imo. After all, you're only doing it for the time. It's bad enough to have a lap invalidated by the merest touch of a tyrewall or grabbing a smidgen of grass :doh:. On that basis starting on track with tyres at optimum temperature makes sense.

/retracts nose from other peoples business.

rediske

16th May 2007, 18:08

Addendum: I've just spent a half an hour hot lapping and I CAN see the appeal.

Very nice of you to try some actual hotlapping... :thumb:

I tried it once myself with drifting for half an hour but I COULDN'T see the appeal AT ALL! :tilt: :D

Mogar

5th June 2007, 02:11

If you want reality then just go racing in reality! :) If you want a sim then you are avoiding many of the problems of reality, and cutting it down to the actual racing

Some race on sims just because real racing is waaaay too expensive for some. For professional karting, I would have to spend at least 2x my monthly income just for karting in order to be competitive. So it's completely out of question for me.

While I do agree that some things don't need to go extreme in LFS, I think that warming up the tyres are part of the hotlapping, and it puts some restrictions for the setups (since the driver would have to take care about overheating the tyres). And somehow I think that it could be an option to start from the pits, since some purists will like this option (except on AS GT with UF1.... )

LupusC

5th June 2007, 12:35

From my point of view the best would be to make the hotlapping start selectable (pit or last split) or let it be as it is.

Hotlapping from the pits is no option for me. Maybe others have more time than me, but I'm 43 of age and I also have a real life and only a limited amount of time for LFS and hotlapping from the pits is waste of time for me.

Maybe it's more realistic. But what is the benefit for hotlapping from the pits? Warming up the tires? Look at the hotlapping replays of the best drivers in the OLFSL Leage and you see how they warm up the tires.

If you speek of realism then a super pole mode for qualification could be interesting (Only one warum lap and a qualification lap). There the purists will need the skill of warming up the tires in time and get a good result in only one lap.

Hotlapping is no racing. If you fail you can start again. So I think that the realism should be kept in racing not in an offline mode where you want to make many laps in short time and not wasting time for no benefit.

DEVIL 007

7th June 2007, 13:44

starting from pits is the most realistic thing.Everybody bashing LFSwhy its not realistic here and there so why to include hte hotlaping as well.Eveybody would have again same conditions so I dont see a problem with that.

If hotlaping is not part of the racing so its what then?Hmm...maybe the F1 qualifying is not racing as well:really:.Sorry I didnt know that.

CLRS530

7th June 2007, 14:01