NASCAR - style CAR [Archive]

Fischfix

24th August 2006, 15:27

we definitly need a NASCAR-style CAR!!
(also usable for drag-racing, which is treated kind of child-in-law-ish)

(i know we need everythign else to be improved first, but then....):thumb::thumb::thumb:

al heeley

24th August 2006, 15:31

Good, close FXR racing at the oval = pretty nascar-like feel.:thumb:

510N3D

24th August 2006, 15:33

+1 :thumb: Nascar & LFS ? OMG i think ill never leave my pc again :tilt:

Fabri91

24th August 2006, 15:34

Nascar style would be great! 5.8L V8, i'm coming!

510N3D

24th August 2006, 15:35

Good, close FXR racing at the oval = pretty nascar-like feel.:thumb:

close yes, but not at all :( i guess you played papys sims? Would be nice to see how lfs realizes this. Looking foward....S3 maybe?

Fischfix

24th August 2006, 15:37

Good, close FXR racing at the oval = pretty nascar-like feel.:thumb:

yep, the feeling is the closest at the moment, but its 4wd, less power, and the aerodynamics are not the same (nascar has tapes for coolergrill, almost no wings,...) and the rearwings are different as well...
and on top of that... the model does not look like actual NASCAR.

but yep FXR is the closest we have at the moment.

the "tape grill" option probably should come when it's possible to overheat the engine....

Fabri91

24th August 2006, 15:42

and nascars have a bigger engine: what is nascar feelin without v8 sound?

510N3D

24th August 2006, 15:44

and nascars have a bigger engine: what is nascar feelin without v8 sound?

FXR or close to it? :D

Fischfix

24th August 2006, 16:09

what are the actuall specifications for a NASCAR-style Car?

V8 Engine
HP:
Wheight:
Length:
Gearing:
...

i30i3i3y

24th August 2006, 16:17

'Days of Thunder' is the closest I've been to NASCAR :D

It looked like great fun, I'd love to give it a try in LFS. I had a go on NASCAR 2003, but I've been playing LFS so much I don't feel comfortable in other racers.

MAGGOT

24th August 2006, 16:33

I just want to point out to those of you who use NASCAR improperly; NASCAR is not a car. There is no such thing as "A NASCAR." NASCAR is a sanctioning body (National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing) just like the ACO, or the FIA. The cars themselves are called 'Stock Cars,' despite the fact they are no longer stock in the least.

Sorry... just a really big pet peeve of mine when someone says "a NASCAR" or "NASCARs."

duke_toaster

24th August 2006, 16:38

http://www.jayski.com/pages/diff.htm

This has all the stats on the cars.

It doesn't say it, but the cars have 4 speed gearboxes.

This page also used to have ARCA specs, but they've gone:(

Fischfix

24th August 2006, 16:57

Fischfix

24th August 2006, 16:58

Thats the specs for Nextel Cup

Engine
Cast Iron 5.7L V-8
Aluminum Cylinder Heads

Displacement:................ 358ci

Compression Ratio:......... 12:1

Horsepower (approx):...... 850@9000PRM :D

Torque:........................ 550 ft/lb @ 7500 RPM

Carburetor:................... 830cfm

Weight:........................ 3400lbs

Wheelbase:................... 110"

Height:........................ 51" (min)

Length:....................... 200.7"

Width:........................ 72.5"

Gear Ratio:.................. 2.90 to 6.50:1

Spolier:....................... 55" wide x 4.5" high

Gearbox: .................... 4 Speed

MAGGOT

24th August 2006, 17:11

thats the reason i've used the term: "Nascar-style Car". Stock-Car isn't apropriate and can lead to confusion....

Indeed :nod: I was refferring to others in this thread (and in other NASCAR threads. ;) )

wheel4hummer

24th August 2006, 17:12

IMO nascar should use 6spd transmissions, but that has nothing to do with LFS.

510N3D

24th August 2006, 17:17

+1 and with the good old 4 speed gearbox 4 shizzle :tilt:

ATC Quicksilver

24th August 2006, 17:35

+1 however any stock car would have to come with more oval tracks, and more varied ones. I don't like KY Oval because its flat out in all cars and too easy, I would like to see one with a lesser degree of banking or longer turns. :thumb:

510N3D

24th August 2006, 17:37

tristancliffe

24th August 2006, 17:38

IMO nascar should use 6spd transmissions, but that has nothing to do with LFS.

Why? They spend the vast majority of their lives in a very small velocity range, so just need a few gears to get to that speed. It's not as though they do much charging from corner to corner (apart from the few road courses).

duke_toaster

24th August 2006, 17:41

Why? They spend the vast majority of their lives in a very small velocity range, so just need a few gears to get to that speed. It's not as though they do much charging from corner to corner (apart from the few road courses).

Er, Pocono?

+1 for the NASCAR type car with a bristol clone.

tristancliffe

24th August 2006, 17:46

(apart from the few road courses)

Er, Pocono?

:shrug: Same thing really - most are more open

deggis

24th August 2006, 17:48

No point having one as long as we have only one boring "completely flatout" oval.

[RCG]Boosted

24th August 2006, 17:57

Now point having one as long as we have only one boring "completely flatout" oval.

booooo :p
+1 for nascar style :tilt:

sinbad

24th August 2006, 17:58

something like daytona or tally? +1 :thumb:

If we got a Daytona or Talledega type "super-speedway" (I don't think Kyoto could be called one, you would almost certainly have to brake for the last corner with 850bhp firing over 1500kg at it) then for "realism"'s sake we'd need restrictor plates on the Nascar type cars to limit them to 450ish bhp.

duke_toaster

24th August 2006, 18:10

Yeh, Plates would be needed. IMO, if NASCAR cut down the power and the weight there wouldn't be much of a need for the plates.

Or cut the fall-asleep superspeedways from the schedule. Yes, I would cut Tally, Daytona and Fontana to one date each, and have more races at shorter tracks (possibly one shorter than Martinsville. a 1/3 mile would keep the drivers on their toes)

Vain

24th August 2006, 18:34

I don't like KY Oval because its flat out in all carsActually it isn't. The FZ5 can't go flat out around the Oval and thus needs a lot throttle-control to make it around.
If there were Oval-drivers who drive the FZ5 I would actually show some respect for that. :)

Vain

wheel4hummer

24th August 2006, 18:37

Why? They spend the vast majority of their lives in a very small velocity range, so just need a few gears to get to that speed. It's not as though they do much charging from corner to corner (apart from the few road courses).

Well, the only Nascar races that I watch are: Mexico City, Watkins Glen, Infineon. I don't watch the oval races. :nod:

Hyperactive

24th August 2006, 18:40

Imho, in order to make the nascar car useful, we should have more ovals. Basically there should be one very very fast one and one very very slow one. But I'd rather have the mountain track with prototypes :p

-0

510N3D

24th August 2006, 18:59

If we got a Daytona or Talledega type "super-speedway" (I don't think Kyoto could be called one, you would almost certainly have to brake for the last corner with 850bhp firing over 1500kg at it) then for "realism"'s sake we'd need restrictor plates on the Nascar type cars to limit them to 450ish bhp.

Sure i know Papys Nascar Sim and i also know plates are used in Nascar many times, now forever i think. So it would only add some realism. Same goes to the Tapes and Engine Heat. I loved to hoptlap with low fuel and lots of tape at daytona. :tilt:

And my really first wish was, as i went from Nascar 2003 to LFS, to get a Nascar (Stock Car) and check it on a oval =) The oval is there, but no Nascar :(

:D

Fischfix

24th August 2006, 19:00

i agree with more oval tracks *g* but i think first we need a car that is really made for the actuall oval we've got... KY is only flat out if you are alone.

btw: The Glen Rulez!

510N3D

24th August 2006, 19:03

i agree with more oval tracks *g* but i think first we need a car that is really made for the actuall oval we've got...

btw: The Glen Rulez!

+1 Watkins Glen is one of my fav tracks, right after the mother :thumb:

GT Touring

24th August 2006, 23:21

i have been at N2K3 alot lately and a Stocker or a Big torque big power 4 or 5 speed car with a live axle could be gobs of fun, even at blackwood.
this would be a great addition to the game
:thumb:

Roadie

24th August 2006, 23:31

I would kill for something like this.

Michael Denham

24th August 2006, 23:41

I'd love to see Nascar-type cars in the game. Loads of torque, minimal downforce, great fun for circuit racing!

jtr99

25th August 2006, 00:52

Er, Pocono?

+1 for the NASCAR type car with a bristol clone.

You want 6 gears for Pocono? More power to you, sir.

Marty502

25th August 2006, 01:42

Eh, Kyoto oval flat-out? Maybe on a car with downforce, or with a mildly powerful engine.

But with a Nextel cup car? 850 HP, 1500 Kg, a heavy-ass engine on the front and no downforce?

Try doing Kyoto Oval flat out without stuffing your car in a wall on that car.

Shinrar

25th August 2006, 02:50

IMO nascar should use 6spd transmissions, but that has nothing to do with LFS.

Aside from acceration out of the pits, don't most NASCAR racing cars spend all their time in top gear? Why add more gears, and thus, more weight, and thus, less speed, when you wouldn't really use them? Remember, shifting gears slows down the car because, even for a split second, you're essentually in neutral!

As far as NASCAR style cars in LFS... I don't get a vote cause I'm a demo-er I guess, but I don't think I'd race it (when I get S2!). So no +1 from me. No -1 though, because what do I care if the game has features I won't use?

Woz

25th August 2006, 06:57

Also needs all the extra NASCAR related setup options and a couple of small 1-2 mile ovals that more tech with their driver demands

Tweaker

25th August 2006, 07:22

No point having one as long as we have only one boring "completely flatout" oval.
:iagree:

He has a point guys. The oval we have isn't even an oval in most respects. For one, it doesn't require any braking or even lifting. Plus it is very strangely shaped. Sure there are some tri-ovals, but Kyoto Oval? MAN WTF is that ???? Nascar is still great to see on road courses, they aren't all about ovals. But like many have said so far.... to have a v8 stock car you need to have proper downforce model /w grille tape and enging overheating, you need stagger, and all the other essential settings for such a car. And of course a better oval....

Jamexing

25th August 2006, 08:39

Nascars are good fun by themsleves. But we've all negelected one thing:

Live axles.

As most of you (if not all) should have noticed, LFS currently has no simulation of dynamic toe, something required for multi-link suspesion and live axles. A live axle is basically a massive axle with a functional differential and drive shafts.

Point is, LFS currently has NO simulation of live axles. Such a suspension type would need to be simulated as a significant tubular mass under the car, with links to stabilize its location relative to the chassis. In essence, we'll need an entirely new physics for a "new" type of suspension.

Scrabby

25th August 2006, 08:43

+1:thumb:
really would like to see a Stock Car

tristancliffe

25th August 2006, 08:45

Wouldn't a live axle be approximated by our current trailing arm suspension (which is the S1 suspension rather than a proper trailing arm, but I'm sure will get improved one day). The fact that it's big, heavy, twists up etc isn't that important to start with. And the dynamic toe is applicable for any suspension type, but not the end of the world without it - remember, rFactor doesn't have any dynamic stuff and a couple of dozen people like that.

:) I'd love dynamic toe, axle twist, proper trailing arm simulation etc, but I don't think it's 100% necessary to get the jist of a stock car simulated. I voted no anyway. :shrug:

Warper

25th August 2006, 09:22

Oh my god. If we would get a nascar style car - it would be cool. But Please, if this ever comes true: Not one of these new round and ugly ones. We need an old one, of these with sharp edges and a really oldschool body like this one:

http://up.autotitre.com/forum/up/05bbb77e41.jpg

One of my favorite movies, "Days of thunder". :)

Greets,
Warper

duke_toaster

25th August 2006, 09:27

You want 6 gears for Pocono? More power to you, sir.

No, the Nextel Cup uses 4 speeds everywhere AFAIK.

duke_toaster

25th August 2006, 09:28

Aside from acceration out of the pits, don't most NASCAR racing cars spend all their time in top gear?

No. Most drivers need to make changes of gear at Pocono.

TagForce

25th August 2006, 09:52

to have a v8 stock car you need to have proper downforce model /w grille tape and enging overheating, you need stagger, and all the other essential settings for such a car. And of course a better oval....

wedge (crossweight) adjustments in the pits, trackbar adjustments in the pits... And asymmetrical setups would do it.

IIRC stagger is forbidden in NASCAR's top 3 series (Nextel Cup, Busch, and Craftsman truck). Has been since 2001 I think.

EDIT: By the way... Kyoto would be anything but full throttle... In fact, I think that in a 3400lbs stockcar, it would be very similar to Pocono in the game... Including shifting back to 3rd for the final turn, and trying to keep it gripping while diving low to pass someone in T2.

tristancliffe

25th August 2006, 10:03

Jamexing

25th August 2006, 10:24

Unfortunately tristan, a trailing arm suspension system is an EXTREMLY rough approximation of live axles.

As primitive as live axles seem form a technical point of view, they are in fact remarkably complex in terms of actual physical behaviour. That is also one of the reasons for cars such as Mitsubishi Pajero to switch to IRS: predictable suspension movement and thus, wheel placement. To simiulate it in LFS, we need to simulate a fixed beem with the wheel postions relative to the axle completely fixed. Of course IRL the uprights do flex a finite amount, but ATM that's just excess complication, since things such as bushing compliance and chassis flex aren't simulated yet.

Despite of the obvious live axle flaws, it does have a few remarkably good properties. For instance, its wheel camber relative to the road remains almost constant whilst both braking and accelerating. This is why they're still favoured by dedicated dragstres. This can be simulated with the trailing link system already in existance.

However, it's when cornering when things get REALLY interesting. :)

The actual toe changes with suspesion motion depends on the exact design of the axle locaters (trailing links, panhard rod, etc). As for the camber angles, they remain remarkably good and can infact only be bettered with a well designed multilink or double wishbone system. It's just a result of the fact that the entire axle turns in relation to the body whilst remaining relatively flat to the ground. This of course neglects tire deflection, but IRL a properly bent live axle to provide some reasonable amount of toe in and camber can perform amazingly well and maybe better than independents(depends on exact setup, of course). Their real downfall is their unsprung weight and interdependance of 2 wheels. Well, as long as the axle is located well, live axles need not lose to independants. Another complexity is the fact that live axles tend to be stiff on vertical travel but soft on roll. This is why coil-sprung live axles IRL NEED anti-roll bars to control roll. For live axles, the turning "pivot point" is actually closer to the inside corner spring.

It's hard to say all I know about live axles in a forum, but the fact stands that they are a different entity form all current suspension types availble on LFS and need to be simulated as their own unique type to uphold LFS levels of realism. A butch job on physics is perfectly fine on many games, but not LFS.

No, we don't have a Need For Speed. We LIVE FOR SPEED!:thumb:

TagForce

25th August 2006, 10:37

How do they do wedge? To adjust diagonal corner weights (which I guess is what it is that's being adjusted), the quickest way I can think of is adjusting the local rideheight via the sprint platform. Is this how wedge works? Driving a wedge of material under the spring to lift it?

It would be appreciated if someone could tell me how wedge works, what you actually do to the car, how it effects stuff (I guess it changes lots of things on the car), when you'd use it etc.

I've seen it in various oval games (NR2003) but never understood it or researched it...

They raise or lower the rear springs by adding additional tension on the top through a very simple screw. It's like a rocky table... You make one of the shorter legs a bit longer and now it wobbles less... If they need really big adjustments they just tighten up the spring itself by putting a bumprubber in it (or taking one out). Wedge is generally used to fix under or over steering under power (when accelerating from a corner).

EDIT: After re-reading your post, basically that's what you meant... yeah, it adjusts the corner weights (crossweight, LR->RF, RR -> LF) by raising the back end on one corner. Changing the weight distribution using wedge has the advantage of affecting one direction of cornering more than the other, and since NASCAR is mostly about turning left...

Xaid0n

25th August 2006, 11:01

sinbad

25th August 2006, 11:09

having a nascar would drive me away from lfs, theres plenty of nascar sims around. yes there maybe only 1 oval track on lfs and i dont drive on it often as i get bored easy on that track. i think lfs should stick with motorsports like touring cars etc etc as they are more fun close racing.

-1

Try and find video of the NASCAR Busch series race at Watkins Glen a couple of weeks ago. I'm not a big fan of oval racing either, but these cars on "road courses" look a lot of fun.

Vain

25th August 2006, 11:13

A Nascar like car would surely improve the use of the oval. My heart is filled with sorrow when I see BF1s go around the oval. So please include a Nascar like car so joy returns into my life. :thumb:
I might even try oval driving myself if we had an appropiate car for oval racing.

Vain

Fischfix

25th August 2006, 11:21

having a nascar would drive me away from lfs, theres plenty of nascar sims around. yes there maybe only 1 oval track on lfs and i dont drive on it often as i get bored easy on that track. i think lfs should stick with motorsports like touring cars etc etc as they are more fun close racing.

-1

look at the 2000 Winston 500. THAT is close racing. 27 cars were in the last lap able to win the race, dude! and the winner gained in the last 15 laps 17 places and won the race! now tell me this is NOT close racing.....

TagForce

25th August 2006, 11:22

having a nascar would drive me away from lfs, theres plenty of nascar sims around. yes there maybe only 1 oval track on lfs and i dont drive on it often as i get bored easy on that track. i think lfs should stick with motorsports like touring cars etc etc as they are more fun close racing.

-1

I think you forgot two words there...

More fun close racing for you.

Just the fact that a late model stockcar is added doesn't mean you'd have to race it, nor that you'd have to race it on an oval. Your statement that adding one would drive you away from LFS, imo, tells us more about you than LFS.

jtr99

25th August 2006, 11:29

No, the Nextel Cup uses 4 speeds everywhere AFAIK.

I know, I thought you were the one suggesting more gears were necessary -- sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick.

Fischfix

26th August 2006, 23:00

the heat is gone???

ajp71

26th August 2006, 23:18

Papy have done Nascars (very well) to death LFS need not bother with them, a V8 Supercars style car could be a better bet, slightly more sophisticated but still basic enough for the oval racers.

GT Touring

27th August 2006, 23:11

I think what would make it stand out, not just a V8 big car like the Supercars, but so long as it has a live axle, which would make the handling what we are after and the weight.

it could be an old " muscle car" those were raced in NASCAR of old, and even those were like the original Supercars... Torana any one? Galaxie 500?
Torino? Superbee? Charger?

ajp71

27th August 2006, 23:23

Fischfix

28th August 2006, 20:11

superbee or charger would be nice :))) but only if there is something like a drag-set for gearing/motor or so :)) wanna see the front wheels going up on the dragstrip !

for nascar this would make something like vintage stock-car racing but yep. why not a compromise :) :thumb:

GT Touring

29th August 2006, 01:50

The V8 Supercars have a live rear axle AFAIK and would (going on guesswork here) be better matched against the current GTRs.
Oh well in that case-:thumb:
but giving in to a type of series or a specific car (four door- vs. tube frame)
the V8 supercars would certainly be in line with the GTR as far as style goes, the NASCAR type cars are tube frame monsters, which around a proper circuit can do rather well, i mean for example:at Watkins Glen
Jeff Gordon, 1:10.798, 124.580 MPH, Cup series record

Scott Pruett, 1:12.861, 121.052 MPH Busch Series Record

Greg Biffle, 1:14.465, 118.445 MPH, 2000 in the craftsman trucks (wow aero drag! they run the same or similar motors to Busch cars!)

Daytona prototype Alex Gurney 1:07.496
GT (PTG BMW GTR!) Bill Auberlen 1:13.541
SO you see the Cup NASCAR typr car is certainly capable to fight the GT cars as we know the BMW GTR is no slouch.

Porsche 911 GT3 Cup ... with a lap time of one minute 25.581 (FZ5?)

Pontiac GTO.R (a monaro) (i could not find a time help)

[FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA][SIZE=2][FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA][SIZE=2]A 1965 competition Austin Mini-Cooper (a flying shoebox!) did a 2:21. (UF1/UFR?)

I feel this show that perhaps any love axle specially made tube fram or live axle car can do the business with the best of them.
I think a compromise of these is the best, which perhaps a vintage style racer with a live axle (or a trans-am style racer) might do the best fit, non descript blocky type body, big torque few gears, and heavy. so any car of this type could be a welcome snarling addition to the LFS line up.