racing versus hotlapping and the blue flag

[BlueSkunk]

greetings,

what i find quite bizarre is when people during public races get all fussed about being held up by traffic on their way to a new pb. the whole point of racing is to drive with others. if one expects to set pb's why not do hotlaps instead, or join a server all by yourself if you want to cut across the grass?

this situation escalates in a rather strange interpretation of the "blue flag" rule where most of the faster drivers seriously assume the slower car has to basically clear the track in front of them. and here i may refer to the sticky:

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=2146

so, when you are being lapped you DO NOT have to shift-S or drive into the gras while going round a corner. i very rarely see a driver purposefully disobeying the blue flag, instead i see many drivers attacking the slow guys for not moving out of the way quick enough.

so, let's just give us all a break and enjoy racing each other.

any other opinions?

regards

[Albieg]

so, when you are being lapped you DO NOT have to shift-S or drive into the gras while going round a corner. i very rarely see a driver purposefully disobeying the blue flag, instead i see many drivers attacking the slow guys for not moving out of the way quick enough.

I agree, too many people confuse racing with hotlapping. For instance I feel uncomfortable with people mapping "BLUE FLAG LET ME PASS" to a hotkey, but there are situations in which some drivers are never up to race speed. So, while driving in the grass or pitting for being lapped is definitely too much, for me applying a gentle lift off after having moved out of the racing line on a straight is a kind way of letting a faster driver pass without compromising his/her or your performance too much, especially if you see someone approaching really fast in your mirrors. That is, if someone uses mirrors, of course... :scratchch

[Gentlefoot]

greetings,

what i find quite bizarre is when people during public races get all fussed about being held up by traffic on their way to a new pb. the whole point of racing is to drive with others. if one expects to set pb's why not do hotlaps instead, or join a server all by yourself if you want to cut across the grass?

this situation escalates in a rather strange interpretation of the "blue flag" rule where most of the faster drivers seriously assume the slower car has to basically clear the track in front of them. and here i may refer to the sticky:

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=2146

so, when you are being lapped you DO NOT have to shift-S or drive into the gras while going round a corner. i very rarely see a driver purposefully disobeying the blue flag, instead i see many drivers attacking the slow guys for not moving out of the way quick enough.

so, let's just give us all a break and enjoy racing each other.

any other opinions?

regards


I'm 100% with you on this one. Saw a guy the other day competing in a 60 lap race. A back marker pulled out of the pits and instead of lifting this guy tried to make the pass mid corner at full speed with out so much as a lift. They both crashed and he blamed the back marker. I personally would have lifted - lost the half second - so what, and passed SAFELY. I felt the fast guy was 100% repsonsible for this accident.

[K.David]

I agree, too many people confuse racing with hotlapping. For instance I feel uncomfortable with people mapping "BLUE FLAG LET ME PASS" to a hotkey, but there are situations in which some drivers are never up to race speed.
...
I am very annoyed by these unnecessary binds. LFS indicates blue flag to the lapped car, no need to annoy people by pressing it five times and distract people! And no PASS RIGHT >>>>> sh*t either!
And no, I don't like to block, because I sometimes chat with mates.

People tend to lose their minds when trying to hotlap online with 10 others around. It's impossible! Racing online is about making decisions fast and very often, sacrifices, that's the thrill of it.

[Crazy Harry]

People tend to lose their minds when trying to hotlap online with 10 others around. It's impossible!


That´s wrong.

With the BF1 f.e. you need draft to lower your pb. Binds like "BLUE FLAG! GET OUT OF THE LINE" are needed often, a lot of peope ignore the blue flag.

[sil3ntwar]

Blue flag does NOT mean get off the racing line. It means let the person behind past safely.

[Crazy Harry]

Blue flag does NOT mean get off the racing line. It means let the person behind past safely.


BLUE FLAG DOES MEAN GET OFF THE RACING LINE.

On the oval f.e.: Stay right, don´t brake, go wide in corners.

[keiran]

That´s wrong.

With the BF1 f.e. you need draft to lower your pb. Binds like "BLUE FLAG! GET OUT OF THE LINE" are needed often, a lot of peope ignore the blue flag.

No draft is needed to lower your pb... just drive quicker. Can't draft in hotlapping.

Also I hate it when people post message like that "GET OUT OF THE LINE". Backmarkers can hold the line if they want, all they have to do is yield and make it easy for the quicker car to pass.

edit//Crazy Harry, you are very wrong. Just proved the point that so many people have no idea what the flags mean.

[Crazy Harry]

No draft is needed to lower your pb... just drive quicker. Can't draft in hotlapping.


LOL. Draft is needed to lower your pb. What do you mean with "drive faster"?

Another example? WR (HL) on KY1 in BF1 is 31.45 by [FM]Plaztikman. Best pb is 29.74. So tell me again "no draft needed". =)

[BlueSkunk]

crazy harry,

please show any reference to your statement:

BLUE FLAG DOES MEAN GET OFF THE RACING LINE.

otherwise please refer to the lfs sticky here:

http://www.lfsforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=49

cheers.

[keiran]

LOL. Draft is needed to lower your pb. What do you mean with "drive faster"?

Another example? WR (HL) on KY1 in BF1 is 31.45 by [FM]Plaztikman. Best pb is 29.74. So tell me again "no draft needed". =)

Someone setting a fastest lap with a draft is not setting a quick time IMO. All they are doing is getting artifical help from a car in front. It takes more skill to get the quickest time via HLVC than drafting someone for the whole stright.

I like how you've gone off the topic of blue flags :tilt:

[Crazy Harry]

Someone setting a fastest lap with a draft is not setting a quick time IMO. All they are doing is getting artifical help from a car in front. It takes more skill to get the quickest time via HLVC than drafting someone for the whole stright.

I like how you've gone off the topic of blue flags :tilt:

You are wrong again. It´s not about staying behind a car. I´s about drafting and changing positions several times a lap to use the slipstream to lower your pb and to raise your speed. Driving alone is much more easy as drafting with 1, 2 or 3 buddies. Try it, you will agree.

BlueSkunk: No problem. Just connect to the FM Junkies Server. There is written: Obey blue flag, get out of the line and let faster cars pass, don´t block. That´s good enough as a reason for me.

Quote:
"- If you are being lapped by a faster car: The car behind you is consistently faster than you and has managed to travel one more lap than you have. He is about to overtake you and the blue flag is displayed to warn you of his presence.
In this case you are hindering his progress and must allow him to pass you as soon as it is safe to do so (you can't be expected to yield while negotiating a chicane or high speed corner) Hold your line don't fight the other car, do not make any sudden movements left or right, ease off slightly and let him pass. He is a lap ahead of you and you are not fighting him for position. You must not hold him up."

You have to let pass faster cars on the oval, so you can´t hold your line, that is blocking, so you have to leave the best line. Same on tracks like Westhill. The track is so fast that it is nearly impossible to drive fast away from the perfect line. So best will be to leave the line if you are blue flaged.

[Xaid0n]

I've had a blue flag plenty of times, when the car lapping me is like 15 car lengths behind, then when they've passed me i can still keep up and i have tried to pass them again, til i lose control trying too hard :razz: annoying when someone does say blue flag let me pass etc i agree thats annoying

[BlueSkunk]

hi,

BlueSkunk: No problem. Just connect to the FM Junkies Server. There is written: Obey blue flag, get out of the line and let faster cars pass, don´t block. That´s good enough as a reason for me.

i understand what you're saying. but what you do is write your own rules which is probably o.k. for your own server. i'm talking about the commonly accepted version of it as it is being found on all other servers (i admit i never went on your server as i don't drive in ovals).

and the issue of hotlaps and drafting is definitely deserving its own thread.

thanks for the input.

:-)

[filur]

don't fight the other car
This i believe is the only really universal part.

You have to let pass faster cars on the oval, so you can´t hold your line, that is blocking, so you have to leave the best line. Same on tracks like Westhill
Westhill has two enormous straights, you don't need to leave your line.

[Crazy Harry]

Westhill has two enormous straights, you don't need to leave your line.

Sure, but if you reach a backmarker AFTER the start/finish straight? What to do? Wait till you passed the tire chicane to pass him on the second straight? You will loose up to 10 sec.! :schwitz:

[SamH]

The topic of what the Blue Flag means has been discussed many times. The best, and most comprehensive IMO is here (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=174463). Blue Flag does NOT mean "get out of the way" during a race, according to the FIA.

This is LFS, rather than real-life racing, and so the rules are basically whatever the server admins decide they are. If they decide that Blue Flag DOES mean "move aside and slow down", or words to that effect, then that has to be respected. Their server, their rules etc, but I think that they really ought to make it clear in their welcome message if they're deviating from the established rules, or it's not being fair to people who join when they get kicked for following the REAL rules, rather than the server's.

There is a lot of misunderstanding about the Blue Flag rule. You probably have to concede that a lot of people, who SHOULD know better, just don't.. and they continue to believe you need to pull over and let them through. Unless you do so, expect grief. :shrug:

[K.David]

And why would you want to lower your pb even 2 seconds lower than the wr? Do you want to boast with your pbs? Duh... it's about the racing. I know that pb table shows your skills somewhat but that's not all that counts.
You are wrong again. It´s not about staying behind a car. I´s about drafting and changing positions several times a lap to use the slipstream to lower your pb and to raise your speed.
...
Harry, that's not true, I've seen what you oval guys do. Stay in the slipstream at say 60% throttle and only overtake the one in front in the last lap. Pretty exciting huh?:really:

[Gentlefoot]

That´s wrong.

With the BF1 f.e. you need draft to lower your pb. Binds like "BLUE FLAG! GET OUT OF THE LINE" are needed often, a lot of peope ignore the blue flag.

But what makes you so special that everyone else has to get out of your way? The slower driver has as much right to the racing line as you. If he is in mid corner just as you arrive behind he is perfectly within his rights to take the line through the corner and let you pass after with a slight lift on exit. Ofcourse clever drivers being blue flagged will try and ensure the faster car doesn't end up behind mid corner but this isn't always possible.

[filur]

Sure, but if you reach a backmarker AFTER the start/finish straight? What to do? Wait till you passed the tire chicane to pass him on the second straight? You will loose up to 10 sec.! :schwitz:

The passing driver is fully responsible for making a safe pass, so you wait until it's safe to pass whether the backmarker helps you or not. If the car drives so slow that you'd loose 10 seconds before the next straight there's no way he could hold you behind anyway.

[Gentlefoot]

BLUE FLAG DOES MEAN GET OFF THE RACING LINE.

On the oval f.e.: Stay right, don´t brake, go wide in corners.

No it categorically does not. It means there is a faster driver behind and you should allow them to pass as soon as it is safe to do so.

[tristancliffe]

It is up to the lapper to pass the lappee. In no form of motorsport is the lappee expected to just move off the racing line, although he is expected to not fight or try to keep them behind - sensible yeilding in other words. If that requires the lappee to move offline then so be it (it's his call), but it is not obligatory.

Last time I checked it's the same in real life oval racing - the slower cars don't have to move offline, just lift a little to assist the faster guys.

At Westhill there are loads of straights, so you just have to overtake them then. Assuming you mean the Sauber, then if you lose loads of time then that's great - it's what happens in real life too when the lapper doesn't plan when/where he'll lap the lappee.

[SamH]

For clarity, perhaps it needs pointing out/reiterating that Harry's FM server does have its own rules, which are clearly indicated and very different from real-life rules.

Harry, for the sake of avoiding confusion, when you're talking about racing rules, please make sure you distinguish between talking about FM rules or your understanding of real-life rules. If you don't, people may think that you don't understand the real-life rules and we'll descend into some pretty ugly postings. :thumb:

[keiran]

You are wrong again. It´s not about staying behind a car. I´s about drafting and changing positions several times a lap to use the slipstream to lower your pb and to raise your speed. Driving alone is much more easy as drafting with 1, 2 or 3 buddies. Try it, you will agree.

BlueSkunk: No problem. Just connect to the FM Junkies Server. There is written: Obey blue flag, get out of the line and let faster cars pass, don´t block. That´s good enough as a reason for me.

Quote:
"- If you are being lapped by a faster car: The car behind you is consistently faster than you and has managed to travel one more lap than you have. He is about to overtake you and the blue flag is displayed to warn you of his presence.
In this case you are hindering his progress and must allow him to pass you as soon as it is safe to do so (you can't be expected to yield while negotiating a chicane or high speed corner) Hold your line don't fight the other car, do not make any sudden movements left or right, ease off slightly and let him pass. He is a lap ahead of you and you are not fighting him for position. You must not hold him up."

You have to let pass faster cars on the oval, so you can´t hold your line, that is blocking, so you have to leave the best line. Same on tracks like Westhill. The track is so fast that it is nearly impossible to drive fast away from the perfect line. So best will be to leave the line if you are blue flaged.

Erm you've contradicted yourself some what. The part you've put in bold says the back marker should hold his line and not fight the car, like it's in any form of motorsport I know run by FIA and MSA.

You seem to think that backmarkers can't cost you time at all, that they should take all sorts of action to get out of your way. Well your talking a load of crap, part of the skill in racing is thinking about back markers and using them to your advantage. A la the best move in F1 Hakkinen on Schumacher, Spa back marker in the middle - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YMC2_TfpsE

I lost two possible wins yesterday down to back markers and a couple of chances at passing for the lead but then I was advantaged by them as well at other times during the races. You think I was screaming in my helmet at the karts in front "GET OFF THE LINE", no because it's my responsibility to get pass them. All they have to do is hold the line and not defend.

To respond to your earlier comment, no I wont try oval racing. To me it's boring, I rather fight side by side through lefts and rights to put to test my skills at slowing the car down as late as possible.

[Crazy Harry]

And why would you want to lower your pb even 2 seconds lower than the wr? Do you want to boast with your pbs? Duh... it's about the racing. I know that pb table shows your skills somewhat but that's not all that counts.

Harry, that's not true, I've seen what you oval guys do. Stay in the slipstream at say 60% throttle and only overtake the one in front in the last lap. Pretty exciting huh?:really:


Hm... the last part sound strange to me. Maybe you see some guys who are a little blit egoistic. Sure no FM guy. To make it clear. We sometimes like to get the "lowest pb reachable". That´s why we use bumpdrafting sometimes. That means NOt stay in the slipüstream with 60% throttle. Bumpdrafting means to PUSH the car in front the whole lap. And for us it´s no gentlemen agreement to push someone 7 laps and overtake in lap 8. If you push, you stay behind the whole time and you don´t try to win.
We often drive the fastest car on the fastest track. BF1 on KY1. After ..erm.. 20000 laps "normal" racing is not the fun sometimes. So we try to get faster and faster. But without cheating. Watch the short replays, maybe you can understand the kind of fun we like. =)

@SamH. I agree. We run this server for a long time and we have tried a lot of things to keep the track "clear". SHIFT+S after crash and going wide in blue flag is in our opinion the most easy rules to understand. Sure it has NOTHING to do with the reality on circuits. But IMHO the oval rules IRL are a little bit different to circuit rules. I´m not interested in Formula Sports IRL, I only know about the rules that I read here.

[Chaos]

For the meaning of the BLUE FLAG, please read Art 4.1.2. d) from the FIA International Sporting Code (http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1653003624__Appendix_H_a.pdf)

[W1LLSD4D]

Veering slightly off topic (sorry) but I've just been to look for blue flag rules for Nascar - as an example of oval racing. Concrete information is difficult to get because unlike F1, they don't (openly) publish the rules. Anyway - from what I can see there's not a blue flag in Nascar - just a blue flag with orange diagonal stripe with a similar (but subtly different) meaning as follows (apparently):


The Blue Flag with an Orange Diagonal Stripe

This is the "courtesy" flag or the "move over" flag. It is the only flag that is optional. A driver may, at his discretion, ignore this flag.
It is displayed to a car (or group of cars) to let them know that the leaders are coming up behind them and that should be courteous and move over to let the leaders race.
Again, this flag is optional... However, NASCAR takes a dim view of anyone who repeatedly and without a darn good reason ignores it.


I always knew I didn't understand Nascar racing. Now I'm even less sure. :scratchch

[sinbad]

I only get annoyed when racers about to go a lap down seem to actively defend their "position".
As long as people don't do this, I don't care if they pull off the road completely (although I'd never expect somebody to), or simply drive their line and allow me to pass them easily. Either way, it's the random actions and senseless defending that causes trouble.

[Fischfix]

The Blue Flag with an Orange Diagonal Stripe

This is the "courtesy" flag or the "move over" flag. It is the only flag that is optional. A driver may, at his discretion, ignore this flag.
It is displayed to a car (or group of cars) to let them know that the leaders are coming up behind them and that should be courteous and move over to let the leaders race.
Again, this flag is optional... However, NASCAR takes a dim view of anyone who repeatedly and without a darn good reason ignores it.



i think anybody who stays in front of a leading group will face the same consequences when being in the same position. so better you let them pass, maybe they will let you pass in a future race when you are in the lead and some of them is in front of you.... :thumb::thumb::thumb:

[Goop]

Totally agree with the original poster, nicely summed up.

One other thing, too - it's related I think. A couple of nights ago, I saw a guy (who frequents the forums, and is quick) say some pretty ridiculous things to someone who was on the lead lap.

He seemed to think that because his lap times were faster, he deserved right-of-way, despite being at least a lap down... He proceeded to get up someone that HE crashed into! I just couldn't believe the arrogance...

If you're a lap down, don't race the leaders - even if you're quicker. If they're nice, and it's not a crucial part of the race for them, most will let you through... but they're under no obligation at all. Unless you can get past cleanly, without affecting their race, back off.

[Honey]

It is up to the lapper to pass the lappee. In no form of motorsport is the lappee expected to just move off the racing line, although he is expected to not fight or try to keep them behind - sensible yeilding in other words. If that requires the lappee to move offline then so be it (it's his call), but it is not obligatory.

exactly! racing is not setting pb, slower guys have their right to do their race, i just want to stress the point i bolded, because the most annoying thing is people exiting from pits in the middle of a race just in front or between race leaders and pretend to fight with them and passing them...result -> race screwed! i'm not against people who join in the middle of the race just to warm up, but for those (that are not racing) a blue flag shoud mean "move off the way" imo.

[BlueSkunk]

driver skill

if you run up on a slow car make sure you stay close throughout the corner then accelerate and you'll overtake out of the slipstream in time before the next corner. the slow driver doesn't need to do anything at all. this maneuver is obviously more demanding than simply braking later as staying close behind a car throughout a corner ain't that easy. so why blame another driver for ones own shortcomings?

driver conduct

verbally attacking a slower driver is simply uncalled for and unfair.

something else i do notice all the time is that the really fast guys (within 1 sec of wr) rarely lose their temper. it's the midrange wannabees doing average laps of 2-3 sec slower than wr who get all wound up. an observation i do find amusing.

to all those who hate running up on another car i recommend taking a chill pill and working a bit on driving technique. racing includes faster AND slower cars.

[SchneeFee]

its depening on the race situation:

On puplic 5 Laps Sprintraces ofcourse there is a lack of patience when getting stuck behind a backmarker, and this can lead to unexpected passing manouvers at unexpected places.:D

Doing the same in longdistance races is rather unresponsible.

But naturally i always try to get the fastest lap in a race. I am Racer, what should i do?

[Gentlefoot]

its depening on the race situation:

On puplic 5 Laps Sprintraces ofcourse there is a lack of patience when getting stuck behind a backmarker, and this can lead to unexpected passing manouvers at unexpected places.:D

Doing the same in longdistance races is rather unresponsible.

But naturally i always try to get the fastest lap in a race. I am Racer, what should i do?

What should you do? Try and win the race. Not setting the fastest lap. Pretty pointless setting the fastest lap only to crash - the super quick laptime won't be shown in the results anyway if you do that.

[NotAnIllusion]

But naturally i always try to get the fastest lap in a race. I am Racer, what should i do?
Racing is so much more than the fastest lap. Defending, conserving tyres and fuel, knowing when to pit and attack etc. If all you do is drive flatout the entire race, you're missing a big part of Racing. :)

[SamH]

Racing is so much more than the fastest lap. Defending, conserving tyres and fuel, knowing when to pit and attack etc. If all you do is drive flatout the entire race, you're missing a big part of Racing. :)
I do very much agree with you. I have always felt that the greater the obstacles, the more severe the adversities, the greater the struggle.. through these you achieve the greater the victory. Whether it's a difficult chicane or a challenging opponent.

Ask yourself, which do you consider the better race: Where Schumacher wins by a full lap, or when he's head-to-head with Alonso down to the line? Which is the greater victory?

[Jonesy_]

The one where Räikkonen takes em both down on the last bend of the race :D

[Chris_Kerry]

I do very much agree with you. I have always felt that the greater the obstacles, the more severe the adversities, the greater the struggle.. through these you achieve the greater the victory. Whether it's a difficult chicane or a challenging opponent.

I understand and agree with this statement 100%.

Having said that, often the quality of driving from the back marker is that poor in LFS, it's sometimes impossible to get past safely. Hence why more times than not, the quicker racers publically get annoyed with these people.

Also, as much as I appreciate what you are trying to get at, we can't compare LFS races to professional races we see on the telly. We can strive for realism, but we will never replicate the way we would react if racing in real life.

Therefore to ask and expect people who don't take the game as seriously as some of us to do this, isn't going to happen.

[BlueSkunk]

if the first goal is to finish the race and the second goal to win it then there won't be so many useless and brainless now-or-never maneuvers and increasingly fair driving which definitely the majority of drivers will enjoy more.

just look at league races. if that works during 1-3 hour races why should it be different during a 5-10 lap race?

[jtr99]

if the first goal is to finish the race and the second goal to win it then there won't be so many useless and brainless now-or-never maneuvers and increasingly fair driving which definitely the majority of drivers will enjoy more.

just look at league races. if that works during 1-3 hour races why should it be different during a 5-10 lap race?


Well said BlueSkunk. I don't think what you describe will happen, but I'd like to live in a world where it did.

[Gunn]

I created this (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=5822&highlight=blue+flag) topic a long time ago in order to help members take a close look at why the blue flag rules cause confusion sometimes.

When overtaking and blue flag rules are used in conjunction with each other (after all, the majority of Blue Flag instances will include overtaking) the picture is quite clear.

There are also two main types of fblue flag, static and waved. A static or held blue flag indicates that a faster car is approaching from behind, it isn't always a situation of being lapped either, the blue flag can be shown to a slow car even if it is fighting for position on the same lap as the approaching car (though these cases are not the norm). A waved blue flag requires action on the part of the slower car but, as outlined in the sporting code, the car does not need to go off the racing line, move over, or stop. "Yielding" means simply to allow the faster car to get past you and this should be done in a safe manner, in a safe place at the discretion of the car being overtaken. Failing to act after being shown three waved blue flags may result in a penalty.

A person who spams "MOVE OVER BLUE FLAG!!" etc, should be ignored, they don't understand the rules of racing. A server that requires you to Shift+S when you are slower or when you spin or crash should be avoided if you are looking for anything like a real race experience online.

[SamH]

Oooh! That puts my link to shame a bit :D Yours is what I'd call definitive!

The blue flag discussion is one that will always re-surface, I suspect. Over time, we all get frustrated at how nobody else around (or behind) us seems to understand the rule as well as we do! Eventually it bubbles back to the surface, and we all say what we've said before, but with new vigour :tilt:

[i30i3i3y]

I do very much agree with you. I have always felt that the greater the obstacles, the more severe the adversities, the greater the struggle.. through these you achieve the greater the victory. Whether it's a difficult chicane or a challenging opponent.

Glory lies in the attempt to reach one's goal and not in reaching it. - M. Gandhi

:thumb:

[Woz]

I agree with that too many people think that racing is about PBs on laps and then get wound up or crappy if you "ruin their fast lap". How dare you be in front of them and hold them up.

What racing means also needs to be cleared up. Racing is about ONE THING and one thing only........Who completes the distance/laps first.

How fast you are, corner speeds, lap times and split times MEAN NOTHING in a race. All that matters is what position you finish in.

You might have X seconds a lap on me but unless you stay on the track YOU FAIL. If the car in front has position but is slower you have to slow until you can find the place to pass.

To many "fast" drivers make this mistake and then kick off when they smash into the person in front because "they were too slow in the corner blah blah blah".

The blue flag is not the only issue at work here and this one needs to be dealt with as well.

[bbman]

Many people confuse racing with speed (IRL as well), but they don't understand the true nature of racing. It's about control... The one being able to control his car the most, wins... You can be lightyears faster, if you're not able to bring the car round the next turn and crash, you're out... Simple as that...

[molocco]

sometimes it can be difficult to decide how to behave...
e.g. take a slightly longer race with mandatory pitstop or pitstops required because of the distance. if i go into pits first, maybe i have little damage aswell so the stop lasts longer, it is possible to be lapped while in pits or just after leaving pits. now the car that is passing me is one lap ahead, so i get a blue flag, but at the same time i´m competing against him, because i know that he must pit, too. how should one react in this kind of situation?

peace mo

[dadge]

Failing to act after being shown three waved blue flags may result in a penalty.

but as there is no system in lfs that automatically gives penaulties for ignoring 3 waved blue flags, it sometimes is hard to enforce.

maybe this post should be in the improovements thread (or maybe there's one already :))

[filur]

how should one react in this kind of situation?

When you are racing for position, the blue flag message is basically an error. If you're racing the actual car that's giving you the flag, there should definitely not be a blue flag. If you're racing within a pack of backmarkers and you're all being caught by the leader it gets more complicated as you should not obstruct the leader (on purpose) but still fight the cars you're racing for position.

Basically there's no blue flag if you're still racing for position.

[Spinjack]

When you are racing for position, the blue flag message is basically an error. If you're racing the actual car that's giving you the flag, there should definitely not be a blue flag. If you're racing within a pack of backmarkers and you're all being caught by the leader it gets more complicated as you should not obstruct the leader (on purpose) but still fight the cars you're racing for position.

Basically there's no blue flag if you're still racing for position.

That is a question I had? What to do when you are racing for position for, say, 8th place but are being lapped by the leader?

I watched a Rolex Grand Am race last year where two GT cars were battling for the lead with about 2-4 laps left. A group of faster DP cars came up from behind but could not pass the GT cars (which were NOT letting the DP cars through). IIRC, the DP cars were 3rd and 4th and the holdup allowed the 5th place DP car to get into the mix and altered the finishing order of the DP class. Slightly different, but similar.

[keiran]

Nothing I've come across in MSA or FIA rules have stated that the meaning of the blue flag changes when you are in a battle for position. F1 drivers are penalised if they pass 3 blue flags no matter what.

Best thing you can do in that situation is let the quick guy through in a corner and then use him to help you pass the car in front.

[Spinjack]

Nothing I've come across in MSA or FIA rules have stated that the meaning of the blue flag changes when you are in a battle for position. F1 drivers are penalised if they pass 3 blue flags no matter what.

Best thing you can do in that situation is let the quick guy through in a corner and then use him to help you pass the car in front.

And if there are 3 lead lap cars wanting by? Its a classic prisoner's dilemma. If I'm the second (the car fighting for position) car and I'm polite enough to let the faster cars through, is the first car (the car trying not to be overtaken) going to do the same. If he doesn't I've lost a lot of ground. If he does than I can use the faster cars to pull me through. He's likely not going to so though. Prisoner's dilemma says that both cars will try to use the faster group to thier advantage so niether is going to let teh fast group through, possible penalty be damned. At least if a penalty is assessed its assessed to both cars, so niether gets the advantage.

[Gunn]

but as there is no system in lfs that automatically gives penaulties for ignoring 3 waved blue flags, it sometimes is hard to enforce.

maybe this post should be in the improovements thread (or maybe there's one already :))True, but the point to remember is that just because a blue flag appears does not mean immediate action should be expected. Even in real racing they are given three flags (3 sections of the track) to find a safe place to allow the pass to occur. In LFS I have seen people getting upset at the slower driver when they are still 50m away from him. ;)

[Hankstar]

Yeah, it seems a lot of people believe that a blue flag means "pull over and let the leader pass immediately, regardless of where you are on the track" when it really means "you are required to let the leader pass when it's safe, but not before you need to - use your common sense". I'd much prefer a driver maintain their race pace and perhaps back off a bit to let me by down a straight or into/after a corner than slow right down. In some races I've had to actively avoid hitting someone because they yielded too much and decided to slow right down on the racing line to let me by. Intention: good - execution: awful. In rare cases I've hit someone's rear because they jammed on the brakes 100m early, asked what the hell they were doing, only to get the response "wtf I had blue flag". There's such a thing as overkill. I'd prefer if backmarkers lifted a little bit after a bend or along a straight so we can both maintain speed and not adjust our line too much :shrug:
Of course if there's a battle going on, it doesn't pay to get stuck between two or three leaders and you may have to back off a bit more than you would for one car, but the principle is the same: you are slower and you must yield, but you don't necessarily have to compromise your pace or especially your safety to do it. Common sense is very valuable in racing and is often underrated.

I think it pays to watch F1 and see how the pros do it.

[Michael Denham]

I think it pays to watch F1 and see how the pros do it.
Just avoid watching the race where Raikkonen rear-ended a backmarker because he backed off too much in the wrong spot!

[alland44]

BLUE FLAG DOES MEAN GET OFF THE RACING LINE.

On the oval f.e.: Stay right, don´t brake, go wide in corners.

This is not correct !
Blue flag means, let the faster driver pass, when it`s safe.

If you joined a ongoing race, and get the blue flag, then get away instantly. It`s a disgrace not to respect the ongoing race, and especially the race leaders.

[alland44]

What should you do? Try and win the race. Not setting the fastest lap. Pretty pointless setting the fastest lap only to crash - the super quick laptime won't be shown in the results anyway if you do that.

If I get hit by wreckers in the first corner, and survive reasonably, but long way after the pack. The only thing I want, is to set a fast time, to prove i belong in the pack, and not in the back.

If unlucky in clan races, I do just the same. Drive fast, to set my marker !

I think it`s quite common, to try to go fast, if you are in a position, where you have nothing else to do. I allways try my best to finish races, but compete with myself, if there is none to figth with. I think it is showing my respect to the race :)

[Hankstar]

Just avoid watching the race where Raikkonen rear-ended a backmarker because he backed off too much in the wrong spot!

Well, naturally, don't watch everyone :scratchch

Although, the particular combination of factors that led to that smash is a good lesson on how not to pass a backmarker as well as how not to be one :)

[Michael Denham]

Very true!

[RevengeR]

When you are racing for position, the blue flag message is basically an error. If you're racing the actual car that's giving you the flag, there should definitely not be a blue flag. If you're racing within a pack of backmarkers and you're all being caught by the leader it gets more complicated as you should not obstruct the leader (on purpose) but still fight the cars you're racing for position.

Basically there's no blue flag if you're still racing for position.
there should be some other messages in this case, like 'faster car behind' or so. btw, there could be some sound signal for blue flag, since many drivers ignore the text. its really anoying when u drive 2-3-4 laps behind a 4-5 sec slower racer, just cuz he ignore the flag, and u dont want to risk. and of course, he brakes/turns incalculable..

[Hankstar]

I'd like to see a small, concise list, something like "things to be aware of when racing online" included in the in-game options. It could mention things such as blue flags, how much you can move when defending a line, simple things like that. If LFS ever has a downloadable PDF manual it could be even more comprehensive than that.

With so much confusion and differing viewpoints on simple racing rules (and noone ever reading stickies), it wouldn't do any harm to have LFS include a short guide on FIA regulations.

[SchneeFee]

What should you do? Try and win the race. Not setting the fastest lap. Pretty pointless setting the fastest lap only to crash - the super quick laptime won't be shown in the results anyway if you do that.

did i say anything about crashing?
@Blueskunk: its a big difference in driving style if it is a 1 - 3 hours race or a sprint race, ofcrouse!!!

[Gentlefoot]

did i say anything about crashing?
@Blueskunk: its a big difference in driving style if it is a 1 - 3 hours race or a sprint race, ofcrouse!!!


My point was that the No. 1 objective is to win the race and not to set the fastest lap. Yeah sure, if you can set the fastest lap and win the race then all the better. :)

I must say last night I did some 20 lap races round SO Long in the XFR. Great combo. It was pretty busy and the lap times the field were doing covered a wide range. Even so I only had one problem with a back marker, all the rest got out of the way pretty quickly and in a sensible manner. I must have passed at least 15 - 20 back markers in total.

I wonder why the standard was so good on this server. Maybe the longer races encourage people to drive more sensibly because there is more time to attempt a pass and more time to crash if you push too hard.

I wish there were more servers that did something other than the poxy 5 lap races.

[BlueSkunk]

schneefee:

its a big difference in driving style if it is a 1 - 3 hours race or a sprint race, ofcrouse!!!

i don't know what you mean. can you explain?

[SchneeFee]

if the first goal is to finish the race and the second goal to win it then there won't be so many useless and brainless now-or-never maneuvers and increasingly fair driving which definitely the majority of drivers will enjoy more.

just look at league races. if that works during 1-3 hour races why should it be different during a 5-10 lap race?

i was refering to this post from you.
I cannot agree, bcos: something that works in a 2 hours Race, must not work in a sprint race. Sprintracing is much more aggresive, and thats why it requires sometimes socalled "brainless now or never maneuvers". It depends in the skill of the drivers then if those maneuvers work out well. Unfortunatly most racers are doing such actions above their own skill level which leads to such topics.

(wennst es immer noch nicht verstehst dann liegts wohl an meinem englisch -> PM:tilt:)

[JCTK]

On the topic of blue flags, what do you guys think on the difference between an America blue flags system and those in Europe (namely F1, someone has pointed out what'll happened if a driver ignore blue flags).

I've came across a few people who claim that blue flags is only to indicate that a guy a lap ahead is coming up to lap you, but they seems to take the view that it's up to the guy behind to pass safely, and they'll stay on the racing line no matter what, even if you have managed to be completely alongside them down the straight or heading into the corners~! they'll just push you onto the grass as if you're not there.

I do agree that they don't have to let me pass, but when I'm already alongside them going down the straight (let alone in the corners), surely there should be no need to push me onto the grass~?

[Gentlefoot]

On the topic of blue flags, what do you guys think on the difference between an America blue flags system and those in Europe (namely F1, someone has pointed out what'll happened if a driver ignore blue flags).

I've came across a few people who claim that blue flags is only to indicate that a guy a lap ahead is coming up to lap you, but they seems to take the view that it's up to the guy behind to pass safely, and they'll stay on the racing line no matter what, even if you have managed to be completely alongside them down the straight or heading into the corners~! they'll just push you onto the grass as if you're not there.

I do agree that they don't have to let me pass, but when I'm already alongside them going down the straight (let alone in the corners), surely there should be no need to push me onto the grass~?

People should always give "racing room" whether a blue flag is waved or not. But obviously the SIM world is different from the real world in that no-one has to pay for car damage / medical bills. This results in some SIM racers never giving any racing room.

[Spinjack]

Happened last night on Redline. One of teh drivers started doing the message spamming:

"BLUE FLAG - Get off the racing line!"
"BLUE FLAG - Get off the racing line!"
"BLUE FLAG - Get off the racing line!"
"BLUE FLAG - Get off the racing line!"

"Blue FLAG - Get out of the way!!!!"
"Blue FLAG - Get out of the way!!!!"
"Blue FLAG - Get out of the way!!!!"
"Blue FLAG - Get out of the way!!!!"
"Blue FLAG - Get out of the way!!!!"

...or something along those lines. Very distracting. Very rude.

Drivers moving off line to let a faster car pass is a courtesy thing, not a hard and fast rule. Most F1 drivers take a wide line when MS, Kimi, or FA come through because it is the 'gentleman' thing to do.

I've read a couple driving books and they all pretty much agree on the concept of passing slower cars. The slow cars constitute a modification in the track and therefore a modification in the proper racing line. The overtaking car should alter their line to account for the 'obstacle' that has altered the track.


Edit: Another problem. I'm going down the long straight on Blackwood drafting a slower car. He pulls right and so I slide left up next to him. Just as we reach the braking point, he comes back across the track right into me which tosses me into the sand. Very annoying. Ther reason I bring this up is because the Blue Flag issue is a symptom of a larger issue: A lack of common courtesy on the public servers.

[Gentlefoot]

Happened last night on Redline. One of teh drivers started doing the message spamming:

"BLUE FLAG - Get off the racing line!"
"BLUE FLAG - Get off the racing line!"
"BLUE FLAG - Get off the racing line!"
"BLUE FLAG - Get off the racing line!"

"Blue FLAG - Get out of the way!!!!"
"Blue FLAG - Get out of the way!!!!"
"Blue FLAG - Get out of the way!!!!"
"Blue FLAG - Get out of the way!!!!"
"Blue FLAG - Get out of the way!!!!"

...or something along those lines. Very distracting. Very rude.

Drivers moving off line to let a faster car pass is a courtesy thing, not a hard and fast rule. Most F1 drivers take a wide line when MS, Kimi, or FA come through because it is the 'gentleman' thing to do.

I've read a couple driving books and they all pretty much agree on the concept of passing slower cars. The slow cars constitute a modification in the track and therefore a modification in the proper racing line. The overtaking car should alter their line to account for the 'obstacle' that has altered the track.

If someone spammed at me:

"BLUE FLAG - Get off the racing line!"
"BLUE FLAG - Get off the racing line!"
"BLUE FLAG - Get off the racing line!"
"BLUE FLAG - Get off the racing line!"

"Blue FLAG - Get out of the way!!!!"
"Blue FLAG - Get out of the way!!!!"
"Blue FLAG - Get out of the way!!!!"
"Blue FLAG - Get out of the way!!!!"
"Blue FLAG - Get out of the way!!!!"

I would tell them to "STFU, if you think you need to do that you clearly haven't raced me before."

I would then add the driver to my 'buddy' list so I could check he isn't on any of the servers I join in future. Muppett!

I guess if everyone did the same then these idiots would eventually have no one to race against lol

[SchneeFee]

@gentlefoot: added you to my buddylist to make sure i am not going to race on the same server with you.:D

[Gentlefoot]

@gentlefoot: added you to my buddylist to make sure i am not going to race on the same server with you.:D

That's very kind of you (if a bit uncalled for) - it saves me adding you to my buddy list lol :)

[Spinjack]

If someone spammed at me:

"BLUE FLAG - Get off the racing line!"
"BLUE FLAG - Get off the racing line!"
"BLUE FLAG - Get off the racing line!"
"BLUE FLAG - Get off the racing line!"

"Blue FLAG - Get out of the way!!!!"
"Blue FLAG - Get out of the way!!!!"
"Blue FLAG - Get out of the way!!!!"
"Blue FLAG - Get out of the way!!!!"
"Blue FLAG - Get out of the way!!!!"

I would tell them to "STFU, if you think you need to do that you clearly haven't raced me before."


It wasn't at me, but at another driver. Still very annoying. I politely asked him not do do that anymore. :D

[Gentlefoot]

It wasn't at me, but at another driver. Still very annoying. I politely asked him not do do that anymore. :D


I wish I could be more diplomatic like you mate. :)

[Jakg]

i went on a demo server to race a friend, it was BL2, XFG's, on lap ONE this driver who's 1 sec quicker spams "blue flag - get out of the way n00bs" and rams me off the track, he does this twice (because he crashed) and then he does the same to my friend (saw him just smash into him in my mirrors)

his excuse?

didnt see you, you should of moved

thank god i have S2!

[Gentlefoot]

i went on a demo server to race a friend, it was BL2, XFG's, on lap ONE this driver who's 1 sec quicker spams "blue flag - get out of the way n00bs" and rams me off the track, he does this twice (because he crashed) and then he does the same to my friend (saw him just smash into him in my mirrors)

his excuse?

didnt see you, you should of moved

thank god i have S2!

So it was lap 1. So he spammed blue flag even though there wasn't one? That really does take the biscuit.

I must admit I've had some pretty bad experiences on demo servers too.

[Jakg]

So it was lap 1. So he spammed blue flag even though there wasn't one? That really does take the biscuit.i know, i remember when i used to frequent the demo servers, i came out of the pits, followed someone, then i overtook him (he was like 1:39's on Q), and as i pass he spams blue flag, i pull off into the distance and as i get to castrol he doesnt brake, smashed me off the track and said "you n00b it was a blue flag" (when in fact i was so far ahead of him it wasnt!)

[BlueSkunk]

schneefee:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueSkunk http://www.lfsforum.net/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=198197#post198197)
if the first goal is to finish the race and the second goal to win it then there won't be so many useless and brainless now-or-never maneuvers and increasingly fair driving which definitely the majority of drivers will enjoy more.

just look at league races. if that works during 1-3 hour races why should it be different during a 5-10 lap race?


i was refering to this post from you.
I cannot agree, bcos: something that works in a 2 hours Race, must not work in a sprint race. Sprintracing is much more aggresive, and thats why it requires sometimes socalled "brainless now or never maneuvers". It depends in the skill of the drivers then if those maneuvers work out well. Unfortunatly most racers are doing such actions above their own skill level which leads to such topics.


i understand what you are saying but personally i disagree. to me a race is a race. driving more or less aggressively has not much to do with clean and fair driving per se. i want to finish the race, i want to take home the points. if someone races without any consideration for other drivers simply because there are only a few laps to go i call that unsportive and reckless behaviour as well as outside race rules. brainless driving is never required or acceptable no matter the skill level or race length.

being able to accurately evaluate ones own ability to execute demanding maneuvers succesfully is obviously a tricky thing :-)

regards

[Bawbag]

I'm 100% with you on this one. Saw a guy the other day competing in a 60 lap race. A back marker pulled out of the pits and instead of lifting this guy tried to make the pass mid corner at full speed with out so much as a lift. They both crashed and he blamed the back marker. I personally would have lifted - lost the half second - so what, and passed SAFELY. I felt the fast guy was 100% repsonsible for this accident.


/Me hides :razz:

I completely agree in the curcumstance of a real race, like this 60 lapper that if someone is just slower or whatever but still racing others that they shouldn't drasticly move out of the way, but in this race alot of people had accidents and at the exit of the pits most laps I was passing people waiting to enter the track as they were in no hurry, but this guy just pulled right out and me expecting him to realise someone was coming I just carried on as I had no problems like this earlier on. I never watched the replay again as I never got it but I should have let off but at the time I didn't see the need, as at the time I was catching all of those infront and actually in the race, where as he was just there to drive around. :shrug:

However if your in a 5 laps race (Say Bl Gti) and someone joins mid race, I do think it is nessisary for them not to hold up the leaders at all and get off the racing line as they are not exactly racing anyone and in most cases just learning the track and car before they get in the next "real" race. It's a mistake you see often, someone starting a combo for the 1st time, you overtake them on a straight and they just dive down the inside and take you or someone else out because they don't know the braking points.

[Borbor]

It really doens't bother me at all with people spamming hte blue flag since I ca'nt hear the message sounds anyway.

It does get under my skin a little bit when people use the blueflag spam during qualifying.

Gimme a break, if I'm on my outlap and you're on your hotlap, I'll be a monkey's uncle before I move over for you. That's part of the beauty of time-restricted qualifying, you find a gap that gives you clear air, and you go balls to the wall. Keyword there being FINDING, not having people giving you clear air.

[RevengeR]

It really doens't bother me at all with people spamming hte blue flag since I ca'nt hear the message sounds anyway.

It does get under my skin a little bit when people use the blueflag spam during qualifying.

Gimme a break, if I'm on my outlap and you're on your hotlap, I'll be a monkey's uncle before I move over for you. That's part of the beauty of time-restricted qualifying, you find a gap that gives you clear air, and you go balls to the wall. Keyword there being FINDING, not having people giving you clear air.
good point, +1 :thumb:

[Goop]

I'll give them clean air; I try to be a gentleman racer :shrug:

[jtr99]

Gimme a break, if I'm on my outlap and you're on your hotlap, I'll be a monkey's uncle before I move over for you. That's part of the beauty of time-restricted qualifying, you find a gap that gives you clear air, and you go balls to the wall. Keyword there being FINDING, not having people giving you clear air.

More sporting behaviour from you, I see Borbor. :)

On this one actually I can see your argument, but it seems I just don't regard the atmosphere of competition in LFS as being as high-stakes as you do. On an in-lap or out-lap (or an already-screwed-up hotlap :shy: ) I would certainly move over for a clearly faster driver during a qualifying session.

[Jakg]

Gimme a break, if I'm on my outlap and you're on your hotlap, I'll be a monkey's uncle before I move over for you. That's part of the beauty of time-restricted qualifying, you find a gap that gives you clear air, and you go balls to the wall. Keyword there being FINDING, not having people giving you clear air.what a nice person you are, if the limit is THAT important, then why did you pit (you said outlap), i find that kind of tactic unfair and underhanded, seeing as someone holding me up for just one corner could be the difference between 1st and 5th

[wsinda]

Gimme a break, if I'm on my outlap and you're on your hotlap, I'll be a monkey's uncle before I move over for you. That's part of the beauty of time-restricted qualifying, you find a gap that gives you clear air, and you go balls to the wall. Keyword there being FINDING, not having people giving you clear air.Those could have been Schumi's thoughts when he parked his car on-track during the Monaco qualy...

[Gunn]

That's part of the beauty of time-restricted qualifying, you find a gap that gives you clear air, and you go balls to the wall. Keyword there being FINDING, not having people giving you clear air.While your tyres are cold and you have no chance of posting a decent time anyway, you would hold up a person who is on their hot lap? You are deliberately ruining another person's hotlap and their chance at a pole position or good grid position. You are deliberately spoiling his chance at a good qualifying time by blocking his progress on your potentially slowest lap. In real life this can attract a severe penalty and is often a contentious issue between drivers.

[atop1234]

I agree with Gunn, qualifying rules as I understand them require you to let faster cars pass unless you are on your hotlap yourself, so you have to yield on outlap, inlap and any lap where you are not at full speed.
But I want to point out that this also means that a slower driver on his hotlap does NOT have to give way to faster people. Thats where it is up to the faster drivers to find a clear lap.