About the AI.... [Archive]

ColeusRattus

1st September 2005, 06:49

just pretend they are all old people.

Yupp, old people wearing hats!

Now there is the theory of mine, concerning the connection between wearing hats and being a bad driver:

Usually, you wear a hat when you get outside, to protect yourself from weather. But when you are at home, you will not usually wear a hat. Therefor we can assume hat a driver who wears a hat in a car does not feel "at home" inside the car. Now we can safely say, that if you do not feel "at home" in your car, you will most certainly feel uncomfortable. So, if you do not feel cmfortable in your car, you can not be, under any circumsatnces, be a good driver.

tank you for your attention

good bye

Woz

1st September 2005, 07:04

Hey guys, new to the game :)

Anyways I don't know if it's a setting or something but I noticed when racing the AI... they do not see you, period. It seems that no matter where you are on the track they will just crash into you if you are in their way. Anyone else notice this?

The AI needs to be trained up to be good. The key is to put different AI in different cars and then set random grid order and leave them to do a 10-20 lap race. Once the race has finished restart it.

They need a good 70+ laps to work things out but the different cars mean they learn to overtake properly etc

shoman24v

1st September 2005, 13:19

The AI needs to be trained up to be good. The key is to put different AI in different cars and then set random grid order and leave them to do a 10-20 lap race. Once the race has finished restart it.

They need a good 70+ laps to work things out but the different cars mean they learn to overtake properly etc
Yeah but is that going to fix them from not seeing you?

AndroidXP

1st September 2005, 13:26

Well, they will learn where they have the space to actually evade you after some time. You have to imagine that the racetrack for the AI is just the ideal line. Due to experience of what worked and what didn't work, they will adjust their driving, like going a bit faster through that corner next time, but also learning that the track is wide enough on section x to overtake.

Gunn

1st September 2005, 15:48

The AI can indeed see you. When you move near them they try to block you. At first their attempts are clumsy and they just seem to be ramming you. Once they get used to trading paint they become more mindful of your presence. Still this is an alpha release so we will have to wait and see what improvements time brings.

al heeley

1st September 2005, 15:57

DasKlee

1st September 2005, 16:44

there's one thing i'd like to see the AI do (apart from pitting hat is)
and that is racing against each other. they do not race each other, they just drive around. almost no overtaking or position changes after the first lap and i never witnessed any changes after lap 2 if you run equally trained AI drivers in single car classes

there is no randomness factor and they seem to drive at 100% every time - papy used to have values from x%-x% to define how good a driver or car is - and some races or even some laps he was racing near the upper limit and then again near the lower limit

i know LfS is an 'online racing simulator' and the offline part isn't the main feature of the game, but then again, there are tons of peple (especially in this or former in the RSC forums) that tell inexperienced drivers to 'go and practice offline' instead of 'disturbing their races online'

this way, the beginners that get scared away by these arrogant 'superdrivers' would at least have a little fun with LfS while they get better and wouldn't be scared off the game completely, because they could enjoy real races and even some self designed leagues and also would learn to overtake cars batteling each other and not only driving one after another - which would be much closer to what will happen on the servers if they finally make it back online

al heeley

1st September 2005, 17:20

DasKlee

1st September 2005, 17:58

Yep, good point. Once GPL was split open, there were a number of factors that influenced the ai performance, and EA's F1 series was the same, with parameters for agression, skill, ability to recover, chance-taking, flat out straight speed and cornering speed, moving off the racing line to try and overtake, etc. etc. etc, that enabled you to either get the ai to learn to race to your level, using your pb as a standard to set their own performace to, or allow ai to be edited to give you the sort of race you wanted. Original gpl (and EA's F1) soon had all the cars well spaced after 3 laps, this ai tweaking allowed you to bring them all close together again for some really good races against apparently intelligent opposition.

hehe yup would be great to have these options as well, but you'Re 3 or 4 steps further than me. i'd be pleased with a little more randomness of the drivers which wouldn't make them act as stupid bots and run at the same pace and same line all the race, peacefully one after the other...

to correct this, the possibility to edit them wouldn'T even be needed (although i agree it would be great to have that option) - i'm asking for/suggesting much less - every little step in this direction is a change for the better and i wouln't mind the devs taking one after another (but certainly wouldn't mind them going all the way also ;) )

shoman24v

1st September 2005, 18:26

IMHO, no matter how much you train the a.i. they still barge you off the track, drive up your rear end and race as if you weren't there. If you compare ai behaviour to other commercial racing games, the ai will actually drive a lot more defensively and will not deliberately drive round as if your car was invisible. This is regardless of how many long nights you leave them racing round on their own.

I hope the devs are working on this for S2beta, as it does detract considerably from off-line play; that and the fact that once you learn the track and get past them they are really not seriously competitive at all, just a nuisance.
Werd. If i'm in the middle of the pack and can't take of as quick as the AI they will just ram you.

Try to make a pass, they will just cut you off. I tend to play a little more offline (for now) and it really sucks to know the AI is just following a line rather then racing.

As much as I want to play with AI, I really can't.

Tarkaman

3rd September 2005, 17:16

As a keen racing gamer I agree to these suggestions.Lets be fair, the most of us don’t have time to play online, and many servers just have many players just wanting to ram others or make the best donuts.

I think the Single Player game option has to be overworked and the AI
programming set as top priority.

Good driving:thumb:

Tarkaman
Germany

Noobzy

10th September 2005, 19:41

Yeah they should fix that you cant learn pure racing :D

Linus27

10th September 2005, 21:22

I agree, I play 90% offline and so need the AI to be improved.

Lnin0

11th September 2005, 03:16

The AI can see you? Sure seems like the AI is on a rail heading around the track - get in the way of the train and you get hit. And if you can 'train' them, I laugh at the idea, then how do you make them quick learners because I don't feel like watching them race 70 laps before I can play a game.

GTR_Yuni

11th September 2005, 05:34

IMO the AI eat up a %$&^load of fps whereas RF MP Test's AI didn't take up as much. Even with 19 other cars RF MPT had very little effect (2-3 fps). However 11 AIs+me, and they eat up 7-12 fps!

I think ISI got something right when the AI eat up so little of your FPS.:shrug:

xaotik

11th September 2005, 08:38

And if you can 'train' them, I laugh at the idea, then how do you make them quick learners because I don't feel like watching them race 70 laps before I can play a game.

Give them a decent setup, max out the fuel, put them in a race with as many laps as the fuel lasts for, minimize LFS and go to bed. The more they have to overtake each other, the more they learn, so having a full pack with the slowest AIs in front usually helps them develop their overtaking and collision avoiding. But the main thing is to give them a good setup because the random generated ones they get otherwise suck terribly and they never manage a decent lap.

B2B@300

12th September 2005, 02:43

Just something for you guys to know if you dont already... havent seen it mentioned in this thread so thought it would be worth mentioning :)

The AI will only retain what they learn in practise mode.. i.e. you must set the race to practise mode then the AI will learn and retain their learning.. if you just race them in races when you close LFS they will revert back to their previous state..

The reason they did it this way was so that you could keep the AI at a level siutable to your own, having said that they still dont learn to a higher enough level for my liking :( but they do improve a fair bit.. and i have seen some quite good races with them having battles :) at one stage back in S1 when myself and a few other team mates where too tired to race ourselves we would race our AI's against each others AI's :P was quite entertaining at times LOL we would each enter 2 or 3 AI's in a race then on Team Speak we would have a running commentary between each other and bets on who's AI would win, it was a blast actually.. but we had them trained up with over 300 laps in practise mode

The best way to train them is to put a full field in but with 2 or 3 of the cars with a passenger or two to make them a bit slower.. then the AI will learn to negotiate traffic better. The more laps you give them the better they become up untill about 60 laps then they level off, I think they still improve after that point but at a much slower pace. Unfortunately you also have to train the AI for each track and car combination you want them to use.

And for those that find the AI no longer a challenge you could always handicap yourself ;) ie add a passenger or full tank of fuel when they are running light :) depending on how much faster you are than the AI..
What I would love to see in S3 is the AI learn from observing your race line or someone elses (ie WR replay :D ) Now that would be cool..

clevy911

13th September 2005, 19:53

They must always be looking in the rear-view mirror. So you can train the the AI that they can't drive through you? That something even a beginner AI should know. This sim is taking a back burner to the GP Legends demo until the AI is fixed. Even the 5 year old NFS Porsche Unleashed I play has AI that actually have the ability to avoid you. What a dissapointment. I love everything else about the sim.

Werd. If i'm in the middle of the pack and can't take of as quick as the AI they will just ram you.

Try to make a pass, they will just cut you off. I tend to play a little more offline (for now) and it really sucks to know the AI is just following a line rather then racing.

As much as I want to play with AI, I really can't.

Gabkicks

13th September 2005, 23:47

if i train my ai drivers alot, they end up going much faster.. but they destroy their tires after only 2 laps and then spin out.

shoman24v

14th September 2005, 01:08

Guy's, it doesn't matter if you train them or not, they should automatically know your position on the track, I mean they know the other AI's exist and they don't ram them.

Bob Smith

14th September 2005, 01:26

I mean they know the other AI's exist and they don't ram them.
Lol, that's only luck. Many a time I've seen the AIs wipe one another out.

shoman24v

14th September 2005, 03:12

Lol, that's only luck. Many a time I've seen the AIs wipe one another out.
:rofl:

Zero7

14th September 2005, 07:12

Take a look at this (http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=213925) thread on the old RSC forum for more info on Single Player and AI (pimps own posts!! :smileypul)

nesrulz

14th September 2005, 07:45

Please remove retart AI drivers from LFS.
LFS is online racing simulator.

Vain

14th September 2005, 08:00

I like the AI. It's nice to have them on the track while training because you will learn where and how to change your ideal line according to other cars. That can be very challenging and when you take some extra-lessons offline you'll be just more appreciated online.

Vain

DasKlee

14th September 2005, 08:24

Please remove retart AI drivers from LFS.
LFS is online racing simulator.

an online racing simulator, where slower newbies get told on the track to practice offline...

yes removing the AI would be great. that way they aren't welcome online and have noone to race offline... maybe they would even go away and play rfactor - would keep the community nice and small...

and kill the game sooner or later but then again we could all leave and start driving rfactor/GTR. hope they treat us rfactor/GTR newbies with more respect, than we treat the new LfS players...

Woz

14th September 2005, 08:37

The thing everyone needs to remember is that the AI only control the car the same way we do. In that they only have the wheel, gears and pedals. There is no cheating like other sims/games which makes AI programming that much harder.

This is the reason the AI have to learn because they need to find out what the setup they have is capable of.

As to not overtaking. This is simply NOT true. If you train up you AI so that the AI field is made up of many different types of cars they learn to overtake and learn a great deal more about track position etc.

Now take rFactor for example. Not sure how the AI work here but there is a huge uproar about them being utter crap in the RSC forums.

I had a load of UF1 races the other day with the AI and it was great fun. But then I have put the time in to make them this way.

DasKlee

14th September 2005, 09:01

As to not overtaking. This is simply NOT true. If you train up you AI so that the AI field is made up of many different types of cars they learn to overtake and learn a great deal more about track position etc.

hm woz, i did that - but there still were no fights as soon as i raced them in single car classes once again. if you train AI1-6 in the XFR for 10 laps and AI7-12 in the UFR for 10 and after that train them vice versa, you will see some overtaking in both 10 lap races, but if you group the 12 XFRs and the 12 UFRs against each other, there will be no more fights after the first 2 laps

i did the same routine with almost all cars and all classes because i wanted to get rid of the first lap crashes and AI repair situations in offline racing - and the results were the same here - no overtaking with equally trained Ai in one car classes

maybe this was just a coincidence, but i heard of others with the same results

Woz

15th September 2005, 01:37

hm woz, i did that - but there still were no fights as soon as i raced them in single car classes once again. if you train AI1-6 in the XFR for 10 laps and AI7-12 in the UFR for 10 and after that train them vice versa, you will see some overtaking in both 10 lap races, but if you group the 12 XFRs and the 12 UFRs against each other, there will be no more fights after the first 2 laps

i did the same routine with almost all cars and all classes because i wanted to get rid of the first lap crashes and AI repair situations in offline racing - and the results were the same here - no overtaking with equally trained Ai in one car classes

maybe this was just a coincidence, but i heard of others with the same results

The other thing I tend to do is random grid starts. Racing offline I make sure I start at the end of the grid so I have to pass them all but I have random order on so the next race all the start positions change. This jumbles up the start order as you normally find that those that always start at the front of the grid will turn in a faster lap time than those that start later down the grid.

The only other consideration is that if you have them all at exactly the same skill level and they are all flat out and not making mistakes there is NO way they will overtake each other because they will all drive the perfect line at the same speed so there will never be a point they can overtake.

Pain-less

15th September 2005, 02:47

I thought I read somewhere that the AI wasn't really working correctly just yet, and was to be fixed in the future.

Sunday Driver

24th September 2005, 16:36

I made today a server for Newbes and other drivers who have fun with driving minor cars in short run races. I put also an Amateur AI driver as pace maker into the race, as long as I was alone. But the AI got with every race faster and faster and was after 5 races it was about 10 secs faster than me each round. In the end the AI was fast enough to make problems even for the top drivers, which joined the server. I would say, the AI learns a little bit too fast. :tilt:

I played with the 0.5 patch.

AndroidXP

25th September 2005, 10:59

LOL, sorry but if your "top" drivers have problems with an amateur AI then your server really was full of newbies only. The only possibility for somewhat decent drivers having problems with an amateur AI is when it rams them off the track, but not because it's too fast.

Sunday Driver

25th September 2005, 12:21

Have you played up to 8-10 times against the same AI on the same track for about 5 rounds? Then you see what I'm talking about. If you're such a good driver you can start imedently wit a Pro or Ace AI.

I made this morning the same experience. This time with a beginner AI on Blackwood reverse. I took the XRT and the AI the LX4. After the 8th race it improves best times from about 1:55.xx to 1.34.xx.

Same track, same stupid beginner AI -> over 20 seconds difference each round. So it's nearly as fast as a Pro or Ace AI in the very first race.

tristancliffe

25th September 2005, 12:41

I can't unlock LFS at the moment (I reinstalled XP when I moved back to Uni, and my internet connection STILL isn't working).

So, I am stuck with the demo for the time being, and racing the AI.

I am using Pro (the 'hardest' setting), and starting from the back of the grid. To start with I could get 1st by the exit of the chicane (T2), but now they've learnt a bit I need the whole lap to get 1st. Then I romp off at about 4 seconds a lap (depending on the car).

I give them my setup (which is a setup from before S2 Alpha was released), and try to give them as much advantage as possible.

Sunday Driver

25th September 2005, 18:21

I am using Pro (the 'hardest' setting), and starting from the back of the grid. To start with I could get 1st by the exit of the chicane (T2), but now they've learnt a bit I need the whole lap to get 1st. Then I romp off at about 4 seconds a lap (depending on the car).

The first round you have the best chances to overtake, because the AI drivers are very careful with cold tyres. If you like make your experiment like I did and start trying to overtake with the beginning of the 2nd round.

tristancliffe

26th September 2005, 09:35

Even if I waited for them to have warm tyres it doesn't make much difference. When you are 4 or 5 seconds a lap quicker than (slightly) trained AI, then it's never going to be an issue.

I think my AI has done about 80 laps of Blackwood in all the cars, and I'm still quicker. So, apart from the AI not noticing you enough, or adapting to changing cars, the AI is okay. They're hardly 'fast' at the best of times.

al heeley

26th September 2005, 09:46

Have you played up to 8-10 times against the same AI on the same track for about 5 rounds? Then you see what I'm talking about. If you're such a good driver you can start imedently wit a Pro or Ace AI.

where does the Ace setting come from? My top setting is Pro. They still suck big time even after extensive training on different cars, tracks, days of the week and various levels of alcoholic over-indulgence.
Hic.

Sunday Driver

26th September 2005, 11:42

In my German language pack version there are 5 different AI's settings in S2 possible:

1. Anfänger -> Beginner or Rookie
2. Amateur -> Amateur
3. Halbprofi -> Semipro
4. Profi -> Pro
5. As -> Ace

(German term, used in the game -> closest English translation I know)

So whenever I'm talking about the Ace AI, I mean the strongest AI from all about 5 possible AIs. Hope that makes things clearer. :shrug:

But regardless how the single AI levels are called, I'm sure it has no influence of the AI itself. Even if you're calling a dog as a cat, it's still a dog.

AndroidXP

26th September 2005, 11:58

Well in English they're:
Newbie
Learner
OK
Quick
Pro

Besides that, they don't drive 'careful' while they 'have cold tyres'.
...
Anyway, even with that flaw, it worked reasonably well in previous versions in cluding S1. But now it's quite bad because they have no understanding that their grip changes depending on temperature or if there is dirt on the wheels. Also they thing the same cornering force is available, regardless of their fuel load. Basically they haven't been coded at all for the new dynamically changing cars.
...
Quoted from here (http://lfsforum.net/showpost.php?p=17359&postcount=2)

Sunday Driver

26th September 2005, 12:15

I haven't proofed that. I can only say, what I have watched. I watched the AI driving in the 1st round very carefully, so I could overtake them inside of each corner with no problems. In the second round it looks a little bit difference. Perhaps the AI performs in 1st round only with 80% of their full strength. That would have nothing to do with AI, it would be just programed behavior.

Perhaps you're a master driver, who is always racing in world record speed. Then you might not notice the differences in the AI behaviour, because the AI ist still much too slow for you and you're able to overtake them anyways.

But on my level of driving it's a big difference if the AI is able to drive every round 20 seconds faster or not and even a beginner AI becomes unbeatable even on tracks a I know to perform well.

al heeley

26th September 2005, 12:27

Run the test a bit longer, watch them - the rate of increase in performance soon tails off to nothing. They are still easily beaten as long as you don't get barged off the track!

No-one seems to have programmed the AI to run 1st lap at 80% of their strength, so I must presume that is your interpretation, which I think is not correct.

Sunday Driver

26th September 2005, 12:46

Sure it's an interpretation. The interpretation of the post before, where it was quoted that the AI don't take care about the status of the tyres, although they seems to be careful with cold tyres. At least according to the first round of race out of my point of view.

Whatever. I'm annoyed that I can't drive against AI drivers because they are getting incide a few races all stonger than me. I'm improving myself as well, but not with so much speed. So the AI is going to be unbeatleable for me. That's a fact and no interpretation.

But I don't care anymore. I've read here in the forum that the AI developmnent still isn't finished. We can hope that it'll be done with the final release, allthough everybody has different expectations. For some the AI isn't fast enough and learns nothing, for others like me it seems to be already too intelligent, or whatever a AI can be. :tilt:

For my to cents I bought LfS to have fun in races against other people anyways, so I don't care what's happening to the AI anymore...

AndroidXP

26th September 2005, 17:55

I just don't understand how an amateur AI can seem unbeatable to someone :confused:

And I'm not driving near WR times, but still way faster than the "Pro" AI manages to drive. Do you use wheel/pedals for driving? Maybe the pedal calibration is a bit off and doesn't give you 100% throttle.

Gabkicks

26th September 2005, 17:58

jeez, what kind of lap times are you getting for the AI to be able to beat you?:really:

Sunday Driver

26th September 2005, 18:32

I already explained it yesterday.

I made this morning the same experience. This time with a beginner AI on Blackwood reverse. I took the XRT and the AI the LX4. After the 8th race it improves best times from about 1:55.xx to 1.34.xx.

Same track, same stupid beginner AI -> over 20 seconds difference each round. So it's nearly as fast as a Pro (...) AI in the very first race.

Today I drove a little bit more on Blackwood Reverse the same track with the same beginner/newbe AI. It droves constant 1:31.xx times. My best time I ever drove so far was 1:32.xx. Don't know if 1:32.xx is such a pathetic time in a XRT. And even if it's a pathetic time, it doesn't explains why a newbe AI gets unbeateable now. Perhaps I should start a server at a certain time and you can join in and you can experience it yourself.

According to throttle issues: I'm using a gamepad with digital accelaration and brakes. So I can only drive full throttle.

AndroidXP

26th September 2005, 19:31

Ok, I was just doing the first 10 laps on BL Rev in my life ever and my best time was an 1:28.99. You must be doing something wrong.

shoman24v

26th September 2005, 19:46

I got to play with some AI yesterday. Well this is what I noticed. If you are directly in front of them they will not hit you but if you are on the side of them they can't see you and end up running into you for some reason.

I set the AI to pro and just followed their line. I was able to keep up lap after lap. I found this a good way for me to learn the track along with its braking points.

al heeley

26th September 2005, 20:07

I had a play with AI racing for the first time on As Nat Reverse, the XFR's, 25 laps. They start off lapping round 2 mins 10 secs (lap 2).
By lap 5, the leader is at 2:06.
By lap 12, he's at 2:03.66, and then gets no faster for the rest of the race.
Running the race again, no real improvements in lap times, peaking at 2:03.7 by lap 11 or 12. That's it, no further improvement.
What is a reasonable human lap time round As Nat Rev in the XFR?

Anyway, now that Sunday Driver's theories are disproved, he doesn't care anymore, so maybe we should move on to a new topic......;)

Sunday Driver

26th September 2005, 20:53

EDIT

Of course the AI is still intersting and I want to add something constructive, after the discussion in the last past days wasn't very pleasant.

I found a solution to make the AI enjoyable again, at least for players which also think the AI is getting unbeatable in certain situations:

1. Go to: Options-> Misc-> AI Use Player set-up

2. Go to the race menue and then to the set-up Box. There you create a new set up, called "ConstraintAI" or whatever you prefer.

3. Put 2 or more additional passenger into this set up and/or give 100% fuel. You can also make the last gear worthless. (I've heard that extrem dark souls has also manipulated the brakes of their oppunents. :mischievo )

4. After selecting as many AIs as you like, don't forget to return to the box and choose now your favourite set up for yourself.

5. Start the race and have fun again.