Betatest Comparison Video - LFS VS Real footage - ISO3888

[KiDCoDEa]

Here's a "golden oldie" that me and Don did.
At the time testing a few tyre code parameters. Alpha code then, still good enuff to show.
Test video to check car behaviour to quick direction change. catapult etc. also used to tweak a 4 passenger setup.
Mind you this isnt a scientifical comparison vid. cars dont have same exact same specs. This is just to test overall behaviour. from what i recall footage with TCM disengaged.
With-passengers, the runs can get very close to weight of real fwd.
We provide the iso3888 layout (attached) so u can tweak sets or make your own videos.

video: http://don.vn.cz/s2/ISO3888.avi

let the brawlage begin...


ps: This was a specific test video, not an art movie, we didnt have 12 fov and zooming on keys etc. Wasnt made to be preety, but to feedback info.

[durbster]

That's where LFS really shines, the transfer of weight from one side to the other and any time that the tyres still have grip. The problems come when it loses grip. You can't quite see in the vid that the back end wants to step out but if you've played LFS at all, you just know that another half second in either direction and it would have lost it.

Interesting comparison. I'd like to see something similar but with the car losing it a bit first. Might do a hunt around the web sometime for a video to try that with :)

[L(Oo)ney]

Seen this ages ago, is a good vid though. ;)

[FlintFredstone]

Been watching this closely, great comparison.

To me it shows the cars are too oversteary (sp?) in the 'lane change' the real drivers is still putting posotive steering in at the end of that manauvor (Sp?) but the comp driver is putting in oposite lock, the external view shows the same sort of thing, you can see the rear sliding in the comp car not the real car.

This vid also shows that things are not a mile away.

Good work

Simon

[FlintFredstone]

BTW whats the LFS Ver?

[Don]

its done with more than half a year old physics...there was quite a few physics changes after this

[KiDCoDEa]

To me it shows the cars are too oversteary (sp?) in the 'lane change' the real drivers is still putting posotive steering in at the end of that manauvor (Sp?) but the comp driver is putting in oposite lock,
Simon

1) thats easily overcome by using a less oversteery set in lfs

2) i have other real cars footage that oversteer a bit more , just like that set i had (renault megane chassis for example)

3) this video shows extremely similar behaviour. indeed the real problems are not seen in this video. they are possibly in some other areas ill wont go into here coz thats not the purpose :) more fruit of incompleteness than erroneous sim calcs of existing modelled features.

[AndroidXP]

Yeah, you should probably test this with the Road Going setups, too.

While the driving in the "real" window looks somewhat relaxed but most important safe, the LFS window shows it more like fighting on the edge to not lose the rear. This really needs an update. Anyone?

[KiDCoDEa]

Seen this ages ago, is a good vid though. ;)

this vid was posted once in the old forum, i guess by don, but was quickly removed from there and user threatned with ban. nothing like having a decent dedicated forum...

[KiDCoDEa]

Yeah, you should probably test this with the Road Going setups, too.

While the driving in the "real" window looks somewhat relaxed but most important safe, the LFS window shows it more like fighting on the edge to not lose the rear. This really needs an update. Anyone?

yes, correct. again could be the set. indeed i posted this with layout so people can have their fun tests :)

ps: the real footage driving is more on the limit than it seems. in fact i have footage of failed attempts (renault again, very nervous backend ;)

[L(Oo)ney]

this vid was posted once in the old forum, i guess by don, but was quickly removed from there and user threatned with ban. nothing like having a decent dedicated forum...

I never saw it on RSC, i often check out dons folders. temp/lfs/S2 :shiftylook: :smileypul

[KiDCoDEa]

I never saw it on RSC, i often check out dons folders. temp/lfs/S2 :shiftylook: :smileypul

OMG WE HAVE A SAFETY ISSUE HERE :)

[Takumi_Project.d]

absolutely wicked work lads :D

even if you say it wasnt made to look cool, it still does :) stylish and impressive

[Burtnic]

What codec is used? Trying to see this on my iBook with the latest OSX update and I get a wide screen without the vid displaying. QT says I am missing the correct plugin?

[dUmAsS]

ffdshow MPEG-4 Video Decoder

divx?

[Burtnic]

Bollocks, just got the latest Safari update and it now does the right aspect ratio butttt it doesnt download. Is it still active?

No idea whats going on now...just went back to previous wide screen with a 5 second garble of audio and then finshed? Might try it on my pc if I have to.

[Don]

yes its still on the ftp

[AndroidXP]

I tried a few runs with the Road Going setup, only difference was that I took the extra passenger out. I saved every replay where I didn't hit a cone :D it's actually not that easy.

The times seem to fit quite good, the real driver needed about 10 seconds for the course, while I needed 16.5, minus 6.5 secs for accellerating. The only thing not totally equal is the entry speed, which is stated as 95 km/h in the video, but in the GTi you just about reach 92 km/h at the end of the first cone lane.

[Boris Lozac]

Thanks for the layout Kidcodea! :thumb:

ps. Are these the exact data like in a real test??

[Don]

yes

[Cue-Ball]

Looks great! That video reminds me of the Enthusia Miata video. It would be great to see a similar comparison video using the Raceabout since it's a real-world car.

[Boris Lozac]

Kid and Don.... Is it possible for you to do a "moose avoidance test"..?? Or at least provide me with the exact data, so i can do one..??

[TravisS]

Kid and Don.... Is it possible for you to do a "moose avoidance test"..?? Or at least provide me with the exact data, so i can do one..??

Is the moose avoidance test ISO 3888?
Little google search seems to say so.

If so, note that a layout file was attached to the original post. You should be able to use that to gather data :)

[Boris Lozac]

Is the moose avoidance test ISO 3888?
Little google search seems to say so.

If so, note that a layout file was attached to the original post. You should be able to use that to gather data :)

No, that's not the "moose" test, but it's good to have it anyway.. ;)
The "moose avoidance test" looks roughly like this:

[Vykos69]

No, that's not the "moose" test, but it's good to have it anyway.. ;)
The "moose avoidance test" looks roughly like this:

just say: The test, where the Merc A-class flipped ;)

[Boris Lozac]

just say: The test, where the Merc A-class flipped ;)

:D Yea, that one.. ;)
C'mon guys, is it really possible that there is no picture of that test on the net at all.. How did u find the exact data for that ISO 3888 test.. ?? If it is not top secret :x ;)

[Rotary]

http://www.consumerreports.org/static/0107mit0.html#Anchor-49575

Check this out... it's a Pajero (Montero) using the moose test (although in the US). It's got a somewhat detailed picture of the course layout :)

[Boris Lozac]

http://www.consumerreports.org/static/0107mit0.html#Anchor-49575

Check this out... it's a Pajero (Montero) using the moose test (although in the US). It's got a somewhat detailed picture of the course layout :)

Hey, thanks alot!!! This is what i was looking for.. If i only knew to convert inches to metres(centimeters) ;) THANKS!

edit: don't know if this is some american version of the official test?? Because they don't mention anywhere in the text that it is an ISO test, or the "moose" test... Anyway, i am gona make a layout of it.. ;)

[Rotary]

Yeah they don't but I found the above from this aritcle - http://www.choice.com.au/viewArticle.aspx?id=102437&catId=100477&tid=100008&p=1

when I clicked on the roll-over test link :)

Edit: Oops, Yes, it's an American version of the Moose test :) I just watched the video of the Pajero getting on two wheels, scarey shit, lucky it had roll over bars!

Edit 2: Hey I swore and it wasn't censored :D

[xapexcivicx]

I don't think I read this enough. I actually thought he was making a joke about making a test to test avoiding a moose. Then I looked at his picture and it's the same exact thing, so that confused me more. Then...yeah...Anyway, that video is awesome. I love how the cars roll almost identically.

[Boris Lozac]

I don't think I read this enough. I actually thought he was making a joke about making a test to test avoiding a moose. Then I looked at his picture and it's the same exact thing, so that confused me more. Then...yeah...Anyway, that video is awesome. I love how the cars roll almost identically.

You mean the exact same thing as the Layout KidCodea has atached.. because it's not the same test.. or you think that i was joking with this test?? It really exists, and it is an official car stability test, and they call it that way, because it was originaly founded in Sweden where there are alot of Moose on the road... ;)

[tristancliffe]

Nice video.

It amused me that there is a little caption saying 'Real Life' and 'LFS' under the relavent part, just in case we weren't sure :trampolin :rolleyes2

[Don]

we built the 3888 layout using details showed on bm vid

[djellison]

That's where LFS really shines, the transfer of weight from one side to the other and any time that the tyres still have grip. The problems come when it loses grip. You can't quite see in the vid that the back end wants to step out but if you've played LFS at all, you just know that another half second in either direction and it would have lost it.

Interesting comparison. I'd like to see something similar but with the car losing it a bit first. Might do a hunt around the web sometime for a video to try that with :)

Before I start - I like LFS - OK, I enjoy it - especially the FOX.

BUT - that video highlights exactly where i feel LFS's shortcomings are. IN the real video, the reaction between steering wheel and car motion looks sharp, connected, tight. In the LFS video - it looks like there's a piece of rubber pipe in the middle of the steering column somewhere, it's 'soft' somehow, and the LFS video needs opposite lock at one point.

A great piece of work - but imho, it highlights LFS's shortcomings more than promotes it's realism.

Doug

[Boris Lozac]

Before I start - I like LFS - OK, I enjoy it - especially the FOX.

BUT - that video highlights exactly where i feel LFS's shortcomings are. IN the real video, the reaction between steering wheel and car motion looks sharp, connected, tight. In the LFS video - it looks like there's a piece of rubber pipe in the middle of the steering column somewhere, it's 'soft' somehow, and the LFS video needs opposite lock at one point.

A great piece of work - but imho, it highlights LFS's shortcomings more than promotes it's realism.

Doug

But you are forgeting that 98% of people don't have DFP wheel which really simulates a real car wheel, so you gotta think of that...

[Cue-Ball]

Also, it's already been said that this video was done using an older physics model than what's in version S2_P.

Personally, I think that LFS has the best physics model of any game out there, by far. Once you get a decent setup for the cars they seem to handle very realistically.

[Boris Lozac]

Now that i watched the video many times, it seems that wheels behave almost exactly the same in real video and in-game.. so...

[djellison]

it seems that wheels behave almost exactly the same in real video and in-game.. so...

?

At no point does the real video require opposite lock, and at no point does it look like the car is sliding a great deal, if at all. The same simply can not be said of the LFS footage.

[Tweaker]

?

At no point does the real video require opposite lock, and at no point does it look like the car is sliding a great deal, if at all. The same simply can not be said of the LFS footage.
That is such a slight amount of opposite lock, you could rule that it is just the deadzone playing around in the game.

I find myself going sort of straight and using opposite lock to compensate for the center-steer reduction/smoothing LFS has.

That's what I think that is.

[djellison]

That is such a slight amount of opposite lock, you could rule that it is just the deadzone playing around in the game.

Deadzone doesnt make itself apparant at the cockpit wheel - that would only show if the video showed the person driving LFS.

It's actually 30 degrees of opposite lock, at a point when the real driver has 38 degrees of positive lock.

It's not even the ammount that bothers me to be honest, it's just the simple fact that the sim needs it at all, and the real car doesnt. The two just dont look the same.

Doug

[Tweaker]

Deadzone doesnt make itself apparant at the cockpit wheel - that would only show if the video showed the person driving LFS.

It's actually 30 degrees of opposite lock, at a point when the real driver has 38 degrees of positive lock.

It's not even the ammount that bothers me to be honest, it's just the simple fact that the sim needs it at all, and the real car doesnt. The two just dont look the same.

Doug
Maybe the wrong term. Not deadzone, but ever try the steering wheel compensation in the game? Slow but loose steering in the center, and faster the farther you go.

And, the real car footage at the point, or before the point, that this opposite lock occurs, the real driver twitches the wheel as if he had understeer or to come out of the turn faster. The VW has a lot more stability, I'll accept that, but just a hint of opposite lock in LFS doesn't mean the car was sliding.

[djellison]

but just a hint of opposite lock in LFS doesn't mean the car was sliding.

If the LFS car wasnt sliding - then THAT steering input should have put the car straight into the cones on the left.

You can see the LFS is moving around - it's fairly obvious - there's a softness to the entire run. In the real video, it all looks sharp.

Doug

[Nick_ll]

Ya I'll agree with Doug here. It's like the reactions of the car should be faster in LFS.

I'd also like to point out that for the thing to be really valid you would need to have the same inputs for brake and throttle as the driver did in reality. In reality until he brakes the gas is floored. Then he modulates the brakes and in the last part he uses both. In LFS throttle is modulated in the 1st part, then brake and gas and then only gas is used.

[Cue-Ball]

Guys, keep in mind a few things:

1) This video was made on an older physics build of LFS.
2) This is comparing a real car to a fictional one

The fictional car does not have the exact same setup as the real life car. The weights, spring rates, damping rates, etc. are probably quite different. So, the two shouldn't look exactly the same.

I would really like to see this done with the RA instead, since it is a real life car. Of course, the suspension in-game would need to be set exactly the same as the real car's suspension for it to be a valid test. A longer track would probably be better as well. I don't think LFS could match the real life physics exactly, but I think it could come close. At the very least it would be more apparent where any discrepancies exist. And it might even put the "slippery tire" debate to rest.

[Boris Lozac]

Yea, that would be great.. Maybe Top gear, Fifth Gear, or some car show could do that test with the RA.. Or the RA guys themesefls.. ;)

[Tweaker]

If the LFS car wasnt sliding - then THAT steering input should have put the car straight into the cones on the left.

You can see the LFS is moving around - it's fairly obvious - there's a softness to the entire run. In the real video, it all looks sharp.

Doug

I guess I am having trouble explaining. I'd show you what I mean with a video, but fraps isn't working for me right now.

I just say this because with the LX6 for example, which I've been practicing for the NAL league quite a bit, the setup I have has such fast steering (the way I like it) that I sometimes prefer smoothing it out with the smoothing features in the game. Turning in the opposite direction while coming out of a turn most of the time never points me in the other direction. It is a loose feeling in the center, where to a certain point the range of movement with your hands has nearly no affect on the car's steering/direction... or at least has such a minor change.

It's too hard to describe, just the way I've noticed how the steering works if you have the Steering Compensation on quite high (like 1.0) to smooth things out.

Try it.

[Mattesa]

I'd also like to point out that for the thing to be really valid you would need to have the same inputs for brake and throttle as the driver did in reality. In reality until he brakes the gas is floored. Then he modulates the brakes and in the last part he uses both. In LFS throttle is modulated in the 1st part, then brake and gas and then only gas is used. I agree, the driver is a big variable. Supposing the GTi is exactly like the Golf in the video, if the LFS driver deviates even a little bit from the video in terms of inputs and timing, it could set off a chain of events that make LFS seem less accurate.

[tpa]

Well, that VW Gold obviously doesn't represent all fwd hatachbacks that were ever made. I would bet there are some, that would require opposite lock in such a situation, just like the GTi does, in the video.

It's nothing that couldn't be evened out with with setup tweaking.

[Boris Lozac]

Exactly...

[FlintFredstone]

On the setup 'correction' that keeps on cropping up, this is only valid if the setup you end up with is within real world parameters, ie would not wear tyres incorectly (toe / camber/tyre presure), was idiot proof (lift off oversteer, default understeer) and had a good 'ride' (grandma's teeth say put)

Simon

[djellison]

I have has such fast steering (the way I like it) that I sometimes prefer smoothing it out with the smoothing features in the game. Turning in the opposite direction while coming out of a turn most of the time never points me in the other direction.

That smoothing works inbetween the physics of the game, and your wheel, right? So it's already been processed - the smoothing has already been done by the time we see the in-game steering wheel moving.

Doug

[KiDCoDEa]

That smoothing works inbetween the physics of the game, and your wheel, right? So it's already been processed - the smoothing has already been done by the time we see the in-game steering wheel moving.

Doug

believe it or not, i wrote the looong reply to your original post (thanks for it) 2 times . thats how we found the freezing/submit bug on this forum (actually not just this one, any that would use vb3.07).
please refrain from making this thread a long discussion about nothing, coz as i said in my 30 min reply, you'de be basically right, i agree, according to the info you have now and according to the physics then shown in vid(still some of it now).
honest i tried replying twice, lost 1 hour that day. when i have the time ill do the effort and post here or pm u the reply accuratly.
basically ya conclusion isnt much dif from what i was trying to test with vid and what was reported as one of conclusions.
but ill give u more info when i have the time and patience.
peace

[djellison]

It's a great video - well worth the effort it must have taken. It would be great ( but just about impossible ) to see it across multiple sim platforms using similar cars.

As for the forum bug - I'm an invision board fan m'self :)

Doug

[Shotglass]

On the setup 'correction' that keeps on cropping up, this is only valid if the setup you end up with is within real world parameters, ie would not wear tyres incorectly (toe / camber/tyre presure), was idiot proof (lift off oversteer, default understeer) and had a good 'ride' (grandma's teeth say put)

Simon

bobs road going setups would probably be the best choice for such a comparison ... even though im not sure how realistic his setups are in terms of sping frequencies etc ... he mentioned somewhere that he had to do quite a bit of tweaking to get the handling right

[durbster]

Just a quick thing to add regarding setups and road cars. I know that you can dial out a lot of the LFS grip issues with a decent setup, but if you ever look at manufacturer setup guidelines they're usually extremely vague. Even a car as tail happy as an MX-5 has really tolerances defined by Mazda, so the converse argument that road cars could be made to oversteer madly like the cars in LFS with a few setup tweaks really isn't a valid one.

[axus]

I found the specific measurements of the test here. (http://euler.fd.cvut.cz/%7Esika/nove/ISO%203888.gif)
The image above comes fromt this website. (http://euler.fd.cvut.cz/%7Esika/demonstrations.html)
What we really need is slip angles from a test plotted on a graph... that could really show where LFS physics fall back if they do...